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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    We tryd Thikil Gundu t3 and noticed that both Trash and Bosses hit harder and resist a awful lot of skills.
    Before the patch today i had 0 resistance in general and and now about 10-20% if my dots resists (with 32% finesse).
    Also everything hits harder to the point that fror onhittet our tank with 240k Damage at the beginning of the fight (before this was no problem).

    What changed are the buffs that adds receive with difficulty, before they had a -mitigation penetration (both tactical and physical), now its just armor (but much higher).
    But this alone does not explain the high damage increase, because tactical mitigation is armor/4 what result in án similar tactical mitigation penetration (pre u23.1.7)


    We ran it on T3 today with tank that had never done it before, didn't feel much difference in difficulty at all.
    Setup was yellow captain, red captain, 2 red RKs, LM, and yellow Beorning.

  2. #27
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    My opinion on these changes

    I dont mind the changes I only wish it would have been documented.


    Tonight I ran a glimmer t3 normal set up but then started notices differences unexplained until a friend of mine linked me this thread.


    At the end I received a box of shields for me a hunter char, granted I do have alts that can use it but what if I didnt you cant put that type of loot for a hunter after they spend a nice amount of time doing the t3. So I hope you do some fine tuning to this loot pool for instance guaranteed helm or guaranteed t1 essence box but this just won't do. even on a tg t2 I ran tonight I received a chest piece with parry on it which made me quite uneasy, I do not need a extra 400 embers always sometimes I just want the gear piece to try new builds but I cannot if get only 1 shot a week with only 25% chance of that piece dropping me probs lower than that considering it can be either essences / jewels or a armour piece with a 50% chance of that armour because dps or tank for a class that has no place wearing tank stats


    But that's all I wont shame this update but I will ask as a player that someone doesn't have be cord but someone always post an update when such things happen these silent changes are uncalled for and as I said idm the difficulty increase but the fact this was ninja'ed and hits people unexpectedly is not valid imo.

  3. #28
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    We did TG T3 today. It wasn't that much harder at all. I noticed that esp wind lore resisted like **** on all targets sometimes tough. Got 127k Finesse.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight.Arkenstone View Post
    I'm specifically speaking about LMs and not other classes.
    We saw the same in Abyss with LMs needing higher finesse than other classes.

    As a side note, had another LM also comment that he ran 31% finesse and in his own words "A couple of resists, but nothing big. S
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    We did TG T3 today. It wasn't that much harder at all. I noticed that esp wind lore resisted like **** on all targets sometimes tough. Got 127k Finesse.
    I could test TG T3 today.
    First i tested with my prior 77K (26.x%) finesse. Did this through all mobs up until Fror. Had some issues(1)* but not as much as expected. Approx 3 times in all fights prior Fror that i saw a resist to ancient craft too.
    For Fror and onward i changes to 98K (30.4%) finesse. No issue at all(1)

    Ad 1) about the issues: as usual some players see "resist" and then panicking.
    Even with 77K finesse except some real resits for frost/fire lore and some minor other things the debuffs were up on the mobs on first try.
    WHAT a partially problem is: Windlore, BUT not the refresh or the spread part of the skill, but it's secondary effect: the +1% inc. damage. That is what seems(2) to resits all the time. Also other skill with a secondary effect seemingly(2) have this "resisted" . After i used Windlore i was tabbing through all mobs an fire/frost-lore was up all the time on all mobs.

    Ad 2) After i changed to 98K finesse i didn't get any resist on fire/frost-lore, ancient craft etc at all.
    The problem with the "resisted" on secondary effects like of Windlore remains, but as i was tabbing through the mobs i saw that the notification about "resisted" was not true all the time.

    My conclusion is: SSG broke something really bad.
    First: yes, with an LM we need more finesse now for T3, but not 140K or something. That is panicking. 30% seem fine or let's say 100K.
    Second: there are some very weird issues with secondary skill effect and with the notification about "resisted". I also had (with 77K finesse) sometimes that i used a skill (in that case fire or frost-lore) and i got no notification about resisted etc. but the debuff was not up on the mob.

    Where i saw some real problems: our pets. For example the ability of the lurker to start a fellowship manoeuvre. The chance now seems far below the 20%.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod View Post
    I could test TG T3 today.


    Ad 1) Windlore, BUT not the refresh or the spread part of the skill, but it's secondary effect: the +1% inc. damage. That is what seems(2) to resits all the time. Also other skill with a secondary effect seemingly(2) have this "resisted" . After i used Windlore i was tabbing through all mobs an fire/frost-lore was up all the time on all mobs.

    My conclusion is: SSG broke something really bad.
    First: yes, with an LM we need more finesse now for T3, but not 140K or something. That is panicking. 30% seem fine or let's say 100K.

    Where i saw some real problems: our pets. For example the ability of the lurker to start a fellowship manoeuvre. The chance now seems far below the 20%.
    Noticed this too. All mobs were debuffed BUT it still felt strange to see so much "resists". I started slotting finesse and ended up with this high amout by getting jewellery with finesse^^. 128k=36% btw.
    My lurker also did not once interrupted a stun ghost with a con whereas he did this quite often last week. But our pets are kinda messed up anyway.^

    My main problem is that there is NOTHING to read in the patch notes or sth. Or is this sth that should have been adjusted after the release of the raid and made it into this update by accident?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight.Arkenstone View Post
    For LMs, in an entire TG T3 run the LM at 40.6% finesse (154k) only saw 1 resist so this is not too bad at all.
    In comparison I know from speaking to another LM who was running at the same time that on their run he saw quite a few resists at 36% finesse.
    Edit: Another LM also commented that he ran 31% finesse and in his own words "A couple of resists, but nothing big. Should defo be higher though"
    I ran yesterday TG T3. I had 80k finesse (27-28%). The resist rate was much higher than prior update. While in general I would say it was doable, but still slightly annoying, when skills like ancient craft and SoP:SAE resist. Not so annoying as in Mordor cluster, where one was hitting his head against wall.

    The problem arises, when we need to debuff two or more separate groups/enemies. Here one feels the resists much harder because it is complicating the renewal of debuffs. (one can´t just simply spam wind-lore on one target)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod View Post
    30% seem fine or let's say 100K.
    I am willing to go up to 95-100k finesse, but not higher. 150k is ludicrous. While possible to achieve, the LM will lose all mitigations because of it.
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  7. #32
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    We did TG t3 yesterday and personally I think the difficulty is fine, only time our tank died at Fror/Karazgar was when LM debuffs were missing.
    So the need for being concentrated and monitoring debuffs and stuff and aggro management on thrash is a good thing for t3 instance i think.

    But the only thing that defence buffs on the mobs are doing, is prolonging all the fights/whole instance, its not making it any harder or more challenging.
    From my champions dps perspective, I had ~10k dps drop on single target, and even ~20k on AoE thrash pulls (spikes being 50k dps lower than before).
    Hunter in my group said the same.
    This feels just like reverting the changes done to the morale of those annoying spirits.
    Thrash pulls take just longer, not beeing hard at all, pretty much the same for bosses, only really challenging fight is fror when all dwarves are up, as soon as one/two are dead the fight is just annoying and takes insanly long.
    All in all it took us more than 1 hour more than before (with 2 wipes at fror) which is just stupid for a 6-man instance.

    If these changes needed to be done for balancing issues or whatever, i'm fine with that but then please SSG adjust morale pools in instances so we dont have to spend half our life in there.
    AND put such things in the patchnotes!

  8. #33
    Yesterday I had several resists on Blinding Flash with 30.5% finesse on TG t3 (with debuff skills legacy, though I don't know how much those work). So IMO 30% is definitely not enough. Getting the refresh on wind-lore resisted is one thing, but Blinding Flash isn't one that used to be resisted frequently, and it's a problem if it is.

  9. #34
    I ran TG T3 yesterday on RK, and these buffs are definitely going to require changes in my build. Prior to the update, I would do 115-140k on most of the trash pulls (at least the ones without an armoured) - now I am more in the 95-110k range. Before I got like 1-2% resists with 70k finesse - yesterday I got 8% resists at 70k (through first two bosses). I then changed some gear around to get to 84k, and still saw 7% resists. When I went up to 90k resists went down to around 5.5%. It looks like RKs are going to need to go up to around 100k finesse to get a reasonable number of resists in the instance.

    I don't really mind the buffs to be honest except that I really wish it was announced or that it had come when T3 first came out. Now we have spent a ton of time optimizing our builds and we're going to have to do a ton of re-work. It also didn't really add a lot to the instance to be honest - just made it take longer and made it more tedious.
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  10. #35
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    After having done multiple TG T3 runs with the new changes, Im not all that against it, seems okay.

    Though my one complaint is that I really hope this does not end up in another Abyss situation for Loremasters. Anvil raid can not be requiring lm's who slot only finesse and pick up agi gear for more finesse to still get resists on stuff, that is simply excessive. If lm's need to go up over 40% (around 150k? I think) then thats fine IMO, but if lm's have to return to hundreds of thousands of finesse to still see resists, something needs to change. Thats kinda how a lm gears for raiding is slotting a lot of finesse to ensure they are not getting resisted. This means no crit rating slotted for healing, or OGH and with how stat curves are, they also are sacrificing morale/mitigations.
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  11. #36
    CaerArianrhod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estelrandir View Post
    I ran yesterday TG T3. I had 80k finesse (27-28%). The resist rate was much higher than prior update.[...]


    I am willing to go up to 95-100k finesse, but not higher. 150k is ludicrous. While possible to achieve, the LM will lose all mitigations because of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    Yesterday I had several resists on Blinding Flash with 30.5% finesse on TG t3 (with debuff skills legacy, though I don't know how much those work). So IMO 30% is definitely not enough. Getting the refresh on wind-lore resisted is one thing, but Blinding Flash isn't one that used to be resisted frequently, and it's a problem if it is.
    I had a run just an hour ago. Same 98K finesse. I had really very few issues. Not a single issue with binding flash nor with ban flare, for what i use many times a nun imbued book for 10 targets.
    I could see for what a lore-master is getting the "resisted". Mostly there are the three secondary effects of Wind-lore: "Cool off", "Deep freeze" and "Wind-lore". The resists comes from try to apply or refresh this effects. I had no issue with refreshing or spread fire-lore and frost-lore itself. There are also some issues with effect that just disappear: not up on the mob, but no notification about "resisted" etc.
    Interesting was for me, that i had no issues at all on the bosses (or only that, few that i didn't noticed).

    I think 100K finesse is a good starting point for now and i think between the 100K and 115K (33%) the LM will do fine.

  12. #37
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    4-5 hours to finish a 6 man instance its just ridiculous.Some people dont care about the new buffs cause they skip most of the trash in that instance.My kin tho never do this so it took us only to clear from first to second boss a lot of time.Make it the way it was before please cause almost 3 hours to finish a 6 man instance was more than enough.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    4-5 hours to finish a 6 man instance its just ridiculous.Some people dont care about the new buffs cause they skip most of the trash in that instance.My kin tho never do this so it took us only to clear from first to second boss a lot of time.Make it the way it was before please cause almost 3 hours to finish a 6 man instance was more than enough.
    True. Many Groups skip the most difficult Mobs. I cannot blame them though. My kin also Needs ~4 hours without skipping anything and beating every Boss on first try. Esp the Group to Fror takes long. Tbh it is a nice idea that the dwarves are posessed but just let them all explode for the sake of Eru + the "amoured" dwarves (not sure if that is their Name in english) are probably most annoying esp if you got more than 1.

    And AGAIN it is NOT TOO difficult for us it is just annoying.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post

    And AGAIN it is NOT TOO difficult for us it is just annoying.
    Agree
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  15. #40
    I wonder still where the extra tactical damage comes from, the only thing i can think of is the extra crittrating or the - armorbuff is a - mitigation buff.
    Also why is our damage lower? Resist otc, but that cant be everything, maby because of mich higher crittdeff?
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    True. Many Groups skip the most difficult Mobs. I cannot blame them though. My kin also Needs ~4 hours without skipping anything and beating every Boss on first try. Esp the Group to Fror takes long. Tbh it is a nice idea that the dwarves are posessed but just let them all explode for the sake of Eru + the "amoured" dwarves (not sure if that is their Name in english) are probably most annoying esp if you got more than 1.

    And AGAIN it is NOT TOO difficult for us it is just annoying.
    If it takes 4 hours to clear everything with zero wipes, then something is very wrong with the group's gear or composition. A good T3 PUG can clear it in around 2 hours, after the changes. All of these 4-5 hour runs that people mention are just bad groups, plain and simple.

    If before the T3 buff it took you ~3 hours to clear TG, then it will take you 4 hours now. And if you could clear TG in 1 hour 30 minutes before T3 buff, then you can clear it in just over 2 hours now. The only thing we are seeing now is that weaker groups take more time, but that has always been the case.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    If it takes 4 hours to clear everything with zero wipes, then something is very wrong with the group's gear or composition. A good T3 PUG can clear it in around 2 hours, after the changes. All of these 4-5 hour runs that people mention are just bad groups, plain and simple.

    If before the T3 buff it took you ~3 hours to clear TG, then it will take you 4 hours now. And if you could clear TG in 1 hour 30 minutes before T3 buff, then you can clear it in just over 2 hours now. The only thing we are seeing now is that weaker groups take more time, but that has always been the case.
    Well it took us 1:30 -2h before the changes and now with no optimal group setup 3h.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Well it took us 1:30 -2h before the changes and now with no optimal group setup 3h.
    Well I only join optimal groups with optimal setups because I'm not interested in wasting additional time in an already exceedingly tedious once-a-week instance. But that's just me, other people run TG to "have fun".

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    Well I only join optimal groups with optimal setups because I'm not interested in wasting additional time in an already exceedingly tedious once-a-week instance. But that's just me, other people run TG to "have fun".
    I think most people enjoy better/more optimal groups, but i also like the abilty to take weaker classes and/or players in an instance without making the run to hard/painfull.
    Thats why i prefer " easier" instances until classbalance is where it should be.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by QueenArleth View Post
    ...

    ^^Want a cookie? I don't think "bad groups" are able to clear this on T3. We don't run the ultimate set up, people have mains you know? We don't discriminate certain classes or "less skilled" players in our kin. Clearing any endgame instance/raid since 2007 anyway.
    A 6 man end game instance should be doable in more than one or two ultimate set ups.
    And sry but I know that many "hard core" raiding kins are skipping and exploiding in TG and after that brag about it. Not saying you are doing this. You are running with the best group setup and that is okay, too. Everyone the way he likes.


    Anyways...the thread is about the fact that TG was kinda "buffed" and no one wrote this down in the patch notes.
    Last edited by Hildilas; Dec 18 2018 at 09:48 AM.

  21. #46
    this does not only affect Thikil but the other instances as well. The last boss in Caverns is hitting characters in the hundred of thousands, nasty!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    ^^Want a cookie? I don't think "bad groups" are able to clear this on T3. We don't run the ultimate set up, people have mains you know? We don't discriminate certain classes or "less skilled" players in our kin. Clearing any endgame instance/raid since 2007 anyway.
    A 6 man end game instance should be doable in more than one or two ultimate set ups.
    And sry but I know that many "hard core" raiding kins are skipping and exploiding in TG and after that brag about it. Not saying you are doing this. You are running with the best group setup and that is okay, too. Everyone the way he likes.


    Anyways...the thread is about the fact that TG was kinda "buffed" and no one wrote this down in the patch notes.
    Cannot agree more my friend.
    Most peoples way of thinking is 'Oh this instance will take more time with this or that class leave him behind' or 'oh we find that trick so we can skip those trash or whatever lets not waste time.Like that i can do it also in 1-2 hours but to make it properly and to be everyone happy in your kin is another matter...
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  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    True. Many Groups skip the most difficult Mobs. I cannot blame them though. My kin also Needs ~4 hours without skipping anything and beating every Boss on first try. Esp the Group to Fror takes long. Tbh it is a nice idea that the dwarves are posessed but just let them all explode for the sake of Eru + the "amoured" dwarves (not sure if that is their Name in english) are probably most annoying esp if you got more than 1.

    And AGAIN it is NOT TOO difficult for us it is just annoying.
    I suggest you try Caverns T3 and face the last boss. Then please come back here and inform all of us how "annoying" that it is.

    It is overtuned, that last boss is hitting characters over 300k and Stalagmites in the millions. There is something "going on with the back end" damage multipliers that is causing issues. What is it? I am not sure however its affecting all instances.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmogaming View Post
    I suggest you try Caverns T3 and face the last boss. Then please come back here and inform all of us how "annoying" that it is.

    It is overtuned, that last boss is hitting characters over 300k and Stalagmites in the millions. There is something "going on with the back end" damage multipliers that is causing issues. What is it? I am not sure however its affecting all instances.

    ?sry but I was obviously talking about TG. I don't bother about Thrumfall actually. It is unhealthy.
    Does not mean it is good how it is of course. The "buff" did not affect TG too much though.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    ?sry but I was obviously talking about TG. I don't bother about Thrumfall actually. It is unhealthy.
    Does not mean it is good how it is of course. The "buff" did not affect TG too much though.
    Understood, however the "buff" is affecting more than you think in TG3. You may have the perfect-no-alts-allowed-in-my-team-ssg-rules-grp, however for the teams that want to bring a non-perfect member into their grp its very close to impossible (not saying its there but close).

    With 6 man groups, one may overcome some of the "issues"; with the 3 mans (like Caverns) forget it....your right, its flat out unhealthy.

 

 
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