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  1. #1
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    Post Beorning Update Incoming

    OK folks. It's been a busy few weeks here. I'll try and summarize the bulk of the changes I've been making to Beornings. I recently posted the final version of these changes and they'll be showing up in the next major patch. Lets begin by discussing the purpose of this revamp, as there are a few goals I wanted to achieve.

    First was to 'normalize' the class skills as we have with several others. This is mainly a technical set of changes behind the scenes that make it easier to keep classes balanced level-over-level over the course of the game relative to the mob difficulty, and to make it much faster to re-balance individual skills and effects in future passes. Not exciting for you folks, but useful for us.

    Second was to work in a number of Quality of Life updates for the Beorning. Changes to how shapeshifting works, wrath generation, mobility, bugfixes and so on. The goal here is simply to make the core play cycle of the class smoother and more entertaining.

    Third was to get Beorning DPS up into a better range so that it's red line is reasonably playable in instances. Not sure if they'll end up raid-competitive, but they are a comparatively tough DPS build, so it's probably best if they don't tick in quite as high as some of the glass cannons in terms of sustained DPS. The DPS changes were broad, so Blue and Yellow line should likewise benefit from them considerably to bring up their pace of play. In general most Beorning skills were falling well below the mark in terms of damage, so this was an across-the-board change for the class. Most skills saw pretty substantial damage buffs.

    Fourth was to bring the Beorning up to a Heavy armor spec. This has two major advantages: 1) They'll be more competitive tanks in terms of mitigation. 2) They will no longer need their own unique itemization and can use similar gearing to the other heavy tanks as a Heavy/Might class. In addition, blue line Beornings will now have access to the Block ability. Between these changes and the wrath generation changes Bear tanks are getting quite a bit tougher - possibly even a bit too tough, but we'll let it ride in the current state and see how it plays out.

    The fifth and final goal was to NOT make serious changes to Beorning Yellow line healing, with the exception of a set bonus change noted below. This sounds really easy until you realize that the normalization process starts by basically resetting all your skills to zero and then I have to get them all back to where they are supposed to be. The upshot of this was that the set bonus change was necessarily a pretty big nerf, so most of the rest of their healing is getting some modest buffs to try to make sure they stay in a decent range.

    Ok, so that's the stated goals of the revamp. I'll let you decide whether we managed to achieve some or all of them. On to the actual details of the changes:

    Major Class Changes
    - Normalized All Beorning skills to standardized progressions - almost all skills will see significant changes to damage/healing values.
    - Beorning forms are now treated as stances.
    - Slash and Thrash are now usable in either form. Each skill will immediately transform you to the appropriate form for that attack before firing.
    - Beornings now learn 'Wanderlust' - the ability to use their bear form for out of combat travel - at level 15.
    - Beornings now earn the ability to wear Heavy armor as of lvl 15.
    - Blue Line Beornings are now able to block as a core line buff. They receive 2 block per Might.
    - Old beorning armor SETS have been converted to heavy armor statistically.
    - Level 116-120 Beorning armor has been converted to heavy, most lower level beorning specific armor is otherwise unchanged.
    - Beornings no longer suffer wrath decay out of combat, and now slowly gain wrath over time in bear form.

    Additional Skill & Trait Changes
    - Most Beorning DoT's and some effects are now tracked per user. They should stack on targets properly rather than interacting or overwriting each other.
    - Thrash now generates 5 Wrath rather than costing Wrath.
    - Shake Free bubble now provides 10% morale bubble (15% at rank 2)
    - Shake Free is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been reduced from [120->40s].
    - Vicious Claws is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been increased from [8->12s].
    - Vicious Claws Wrath cost increased [10->15].
    - Bash Wrath cost increased [10->20].
    - Nature's Mend Cooldown reduced [5->3s].
    - Rejuvenating Bellow Cooldown increased [6->9s].
    - Execute now hits much harder, with a bonus of 250% for full Wrath. Cooldown increased from [3->30s]. However, this skill can no longer Crit.
    - Execute is no longer free when Moment of Opportunity procs - you can simply use it regardless of the target's health (good for boss fights).
    - Yellow line 'In the Face Of' trait replaced with 'Overbearing'. This trait now grants a separate combat rez skill with a shorter induction, that does not replace the peaceful version of Bear Up. Overbearing should work consistently in combat.
    - Bear-form and Man-form Legacy damage bonuses should no longer stack and should affect all skills correctly.
    - All attack skills should now benefit from IA legacy 'Chance for attacks to return wrath'. Non-attack skills no longer incorrectly benefit from this legacy.
    - Abyss yellow line raid set bonus now applies Encouraging Roar's hot to the fellowship at [100%->33%] Efficiency. This set bonus proved to be seriously overpowered. The direct version of the HoT will always overwrite the fellowship version in cases where they might overlap, regardless of tier.
    - Thunderous Roar is now a separate skill from Vigilant Roar, rather then replacing it.
    - Vigilant Roar's cooldown has been reduced [14->10s].
    EDIT: - Vigilant Roar range increased to 30m.
    - Thunderous Roar now has a separate cooldown of [75s]. Overall these changes will make it harder for a bear tank to hold constant agro on large numbers of mobs, but will enhance their ability to interdict and hold targets selectively.
    - Vigilant Roar/Thunderous roar Reflect was replaced with an incoming heal buff. The inc heal buff is +5%/10% for the two skills respectively. These values are enhanced by the IA legacies that previously enhanced the reflect. The reflecting agro component against attackers remains.
    - Reduced animation times of Ferocious Roar, Hearten, Composure, Shake Free, and Shapechange.
    - Mark of Beorn no longer PBE-able.
    - The 'Quick Recovery' trait no longer reduces the HoT component of Recuperate.

    Known Issues:
    - Several skills need new icon variations to distinguish them from each other (EDIT: Partially fixed - Thunderous Roar now has its own icon)
    - Some trait tooltips have not been properly updated to reflect their changes. (EDIT: Fixed all the ones I could find.)
    - Bear Wanderlust has no new visual effects yet.
    - Slash/Thrash can be used out of form if the form cool-downs are still running. (EDIT: Fixed, slash/thrash now share a 1.5s cooldown, shapeshift has a 2s cooldown, this mostly prevents beornings from being able to attack-shift when the shift cooldown isn't up yet - mostly.)
    - Beorning taunts should not be resistable, but they still are. (EDIT: Vengeful and Thunderous Roar are no longer defined as cries, and thus cannot be resisted. They may not get cry dmg bonuses any more for now?)
    - Blue Line Thunderous Roar cooldown needs to be rebalanced for its new cooldown legacy. (EDIT: Fixed. Now 75s cooldown that reduces to 45s with legacy bonus, which should now also work - it didn't before.)
    - Mid-game/scaling instances will still tend to reward beornings with Medium armor. This will take a while to hunt down and correct all such instances.

    -Vastin
    Last edited by Vastin; Dec 12 2018 at 10:44 AM.

  2. #2

    Angry

    NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
    It is terrible! it is WRONG!!!!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan7777 View Post
    NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
    It is terrible! it is WRONG!!!!
    it might be more helpful if you give Vastin some input on WHAT is wrong.....
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  4. #4
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    At the very least yellowline and blueline beornings made it out improved, I honestly had little hope for Redline so no disappointment there (not a complement).


    The good

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post


    - Normalized All Beorning skills to standardized progressions - almost all skills will see significant changes to damage/healing values.
    - Beorning forms are now treated as stances.
    - Slash and Thrash are now usable in either form. Each skill will immediately transform you to the appropriate form for that attack before firing.
    - Beornings now learn 'Wanderlust' - the ability to use their bear form for out of combat travel - at level 15.
    - Beornings now earn the ability to wear Heavy armor as of lvl 15.
    - Blue Line Beornings are now able to block as a core line buff. They receive 2 block per Might.
    - Old beorning armor SETS have been converted to heavy armor statistically.
    - Level 116-120 Beorning armor has been converted to heavy, most lower level beorning specific armor is otherwise unchanged.
    - Beornings no longer suffer wrath decay out of combat, and now slowly gain wrath over time in bear form.
    - Shake Free is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been reduced from [120->40s].
    - Nature's Mend Cooldown reduced [5->3s].
    - Reduced animation times of Ferocious Roar, Hearten, Composure, Shake Free, and Shapechange.

    -Vastin
    Mostly these changes are what Beorning players will be pretty happy about(for me at least), everything else is kinda hit or miss depending on who you ask.

    The bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post


    - Vicious Claws is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been increased from [8->12s].
    - Vicious Claws Wrath cost increased [10->15].
    - Bash Wrath cost increased [10->20].
    - Rejuvenating Bellow Cooldown increased [6->9s].
    - Execute now hits much harder, with a bonus of 250% for full Wrath. Cooldown increased from [3->30s]. However, this skill can no longer Crit.
    - Execute is no longer free when Moment of Opportunity procs - you can simply use it regardless of the target's health (good for boss fights).
    *- Bear-form and Man-form Legacy damage bonuses should no longer stack and should affect all skills correctly.*
    *- Abyss yellow line raid set bonus now applies Encouraging Roar's hot to the fellowship at [100%->33%] Efficiency. This set bonus proved to be seriously overpowered. The direct version of the HoT will always overwrite the fellowship version in cases where they might overlap, regardless of tier.*

    -Vastin
    >Vicious Claw changes are minor but they don't really help/hurt anything in the way its used, fluff changes for the most part.

    >Bash wrath cost increase hurts a bit as it will likely still be the bread and butter of Red bear DPS.

    >The changes to Execute are baffling, started out great with the Wrath damage bonus but than 2 big nerfs to ruin it.

    Execute can't crit why? Unless you doubled/tripled Execute damage prior to wrath bonus it's gonna be worse than a crit Execute on live currently.

    Proc Execute is not free rendering it almost useless. Why would I use a proc Execute when it's gonna force me into man form, I would get more out of staying in bear form.

    >Rejuvenating Bellow cooldown from 6 to 9, not a huge nerf tbh but it's annoying as it leaves Yellow bears with even less to do in between Encouraging Roar.

    >My issue with the Abyss set bonus nerf is not that it was nerfed but that it was nerfed in a way where its still a must wear especially with the nerf to Rejuvenating Bellow cooldown.

    >Without a more detailed explanation as to what was happening with the Bearform/Manform damage legacies prior to the change it's hard to say if this is a buff or nerf.


    @vastin I see no mention of Relentless Maul heal nerf, was this fixed on beta or no?
    Last edited by Antophant; Dec 10 2018 at 01:18 PM.

  5. #5
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    There are a LOT of changes here that never saw Bullroarer (almost all the changes minus heavy armor and wanderlust...). What prompted you to change your mind on block? I certainly can't speak to how much any of these in particular will help or hurt bears, especially the undetailed legacy changes, until I see them all in game. I am thankful that some of my QoL requests are getting addressed though!
    Last edited by laughatdo0m; Dec 10 2018 at 01:46 PM.

  6. #6
    I appreciate all the effort that went into this. Quick question about execute. Will execute automatically drop you out of bear form? Since Thrash is now a builder that can be used in bear form is it possible to execute and then continue to build using thrash?

  7. #7
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    Was gonna post, but it feels now for naught. Let's see how these changes work out and how massive the nerf hammer will be when it turns out it was completely overdone.

  8. #8
    I am eager and interested to see how this will be for my bear! The patch is supposed to be this week, according to Cord? Any idea when this week?
    Illywrath aka ILLY! - R15 Beorning - Originally from Vilya (2007-2015) and been playing on Arkenstone since summer 2016.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    Was gonna post, but it feels now for naught. Let's see how these changes work out and how massive the nerf hammer will be when it turns out it was completely overdone.
    Having access to block (+partials) is such a game changer that seems to have been just thrown in as an afterthought; they might be overtuned with this but we'll have to see how sturdy they are compared to guardians/captains. They certainly won't bring the same amount of utility as a captain.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    snip
    -Vastin
    Wow... thats a long list of changes.
    And most are really welcome, if not amazing.
    Thank you very much for listening to the community.
    I'd have preferred switching to agility instead of heavy armour, just because thats too much of a buff for the healing line.
    Did you make beornings heal scale with tactical healing from carvings and relics now?
    Do beornings now generate threat with heals?
    And beorning still lack several LI legacies. Other classes simply have much more to choose from.

    30s CD on Execute sounds quite underwhelming. Maybe make it 15 or 20? And not free anymore, so really consumes all our wrath? If thats true, it really needs to hit like a truck to be worth it. Like being the highest hitting skill in the entire game, even or especially if it cant crit.

    I'll have to try playing with the changed CDs and potencies of changed skills to really give good feedback, but what I read here sounds totally viable and fair.

    Mainstats for ALL classes still need to get balanced with their secondary stats. If its not worth it in any situation to slot an essences of might/agility/will/fate for ANY class, then itemization did serious mistakes.

    With trash generating wrath... does this mean, thrash2 and thrash3 now generate 10/15 wrath? So its even easier to stay in bear while doing anything? does manform still have a reason to exist then?
    With vicious claws having higher costs, does this mean it generates more wrath when in blueline? So no reason to ever enter manform while tanking?

    I dont read anything about giving the bonus morale and armour blue bears get to manform while in blue line... if there is no point in being in manform while tanking at all... then why isnt blueline simply permanently in bearform?

    Quote Originally Posted by laughatdo0m View Post
    Having access to block (+partials) is such a game changer
    its not.

    And I'll agree with Antophant, that spreading out that HoT to the whole fellowship is still huge, even with 33% potential.
    But well... that depends on how strong the HoT is in the first place. If it gets a big nerf compared to what was shown in earlier betas, it might be fine... But having 30-50k hotticks on the tank and 10-20k on each fellowship member is just too much. Thats just like minstrels bolster courage was and why that needed to be nerfed.
    If the HoT goes down to like 10k ticks and 3k for the fellowship, its fine.
    In the end, the fellowship wont need many heals anyway, as long as there is a Captain anywhere.
    And I prefer active direct healing over overtuned HoTs.

    And please, @Vastin: start showing up in the DEVTracker, if you do posts like these.
    Last edited by Oelle; Dec 10 2018 at 02:21 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    30s CD on Execute sounds quite underwhelming. Maybe make it 15 or 20? And not free anymore, so really consumes all our wrath? If thats true, it really needs to hit like a truck to be worth it. Like being the highest hitting skill in the entire game, even or especially if it cant crit.
    I agree with you there. If we are turning Execute into a 30s cooldown that can't crit then it better hit like a critical heartseeker when we consume 100% wrath for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Its not.
    I disagree completely. Block +block partials are a massive boost for tanking bears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    And please, @Vastin: start showing up in the DEVTracker, if you do posts like these.
    How is this still a thing? Please add yourself to the dev tracker Vastin...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by laughatdo0m View Post
    I disagree completely. Block +block partials are a massive boost for tanking bears.
    As I see it, we still have by far the worst avoidances (besides Champs).
    We have no buffs for avoidances besides Counter.
    To get our ratings anywhere, where it would really get to a decent level would require so many lost stats in mits&morale, that I just dont see it worth it.
    Other tanks get lots of rating bonusses from either traits or used buffs. We dont.
    Other tanks get percentage bonusses from traits. We dont.
    And even if we get avoidances to decent values, thats only interesting for avoidable damage, which is mostly trashfights.
    Not that its not good to finally have block (because itemization is now easier for SSG and well, we take less hits), but I dont see how its a "game changer". With lvl120 rating curves, I dont think anyone will run a "full partials build" soon. Sure, its a buff and a decent one. But to call it "game changer", it should be big enough to allow me to tank instances that I couldnt tank before. And I just dont see that. There are several points, that I'd rather call game changing, like +10% mits via heavy armour, or having a ranged single target taunt while still having several melee masstaunts or all those changes to redline...

    Being able to block will likely result in 20% less incoming damage in trashfights, if you invest heavily in avoidance ratings, while not changing anything with the bursty skills that might actually be dangerous.
    Having +10% mits is simply far more reduction everywhere.
    Last edited by Oelle; Dec 10 2018 at 02:48 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    As I see it, we still have by far the worst avoidances (besides Champs).
    We have no buffs for avoidances besides Counter.
    To get our ratings anywhere, where it would really get to a decent level would require so many lost stats in mits&morale, that I just dont see it worth it.
    Other tanks get lots of rating bonusses from either traits or used buffs. We dont.
    Other tanks get percentage bonusses from traits. We dont.
    And even if we get avoidances to decent values, thats only interesting for avoidable damage, which is mostly trashfights.
    Not that its not good to finally have block (because itemization is now easier for SSG and well, we take less hits), but I dont see how its a "game changer".
    Apart from the semantics of the game literally changing for Beornings... you have to keep in mind that flat additive defensive bonuses become as stronger as you get more. Going from potentially 26% BPE (+counter) to potentially 39% BPE (+counter) means that you are drastically decreasing the number of full hits you take. Gaurdians and Captains have better base avoidances, but they have smaller windows of bonuses. While counter is up (50% of the fight); you will have better base chance to fully BPE than a Guardian (without using their cooldowns). Assuming capped stats of course; which is highly unlikely.

    Yes most of the instances are designed with unavoidable attacks (for whatever reason) which makes this a moot change for those particular fights; but in general this is a pretty big buff. Even if you slot 0 avoidance essences and take gear without any avoidance built in, you will see a slight reduction on incoming damage from Might/Agility alone.

  14. #14
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    Just for clarification; you buffed Beornings up to the point where they can now block whilst running up to 84-86% physical mitigations courtesy of the new raid sets + group buffs in tank line whilst also making it easier to get into and maintain bear form by letting us use thrash to swap form whenever skin change is on CD as well as giving us free wrath instead of consuming it. You then went and swapped a fairly useless reflect for a what, +40% incoming healing buff with a ~100% uptime?

    I know I said I'd leave when it became clear you were ignoring the feedback given, I just honestly didn't think you'd ignore the whole "Don't go making Beornings OP" part of that feedback.
    ~ The devs don't want to balance classes, what chance did I have ~

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Just for clarification; you buffed Beornings up to the point where they can now block whilst running up to 84-86% physical mitigations courtesy of the new raid sets + group buffs in tank line whilst also making it easier to get into and maintain bear form by letting us use thrash to swap form whenever skin change is on CD as well as giving us free wrath instead of consuming it. You then went and swapped a fairly useless reflect for a what, +40% incoming healing buff with a ~100% uptime?

    I know I said I'd leave when it became clear you were ignoring the feedback given, I just honestly didn't think you'd ignore the whole "Don't go making Beornings OP" part of that feedback.
    haha, triggered. welcome back.

    whats wrong with 85% mits, if content is balanced towards that?
    Other tanks can run with effectively 80%+ mits, too, with the new raidsets and groupbuffs.
    But yea, I'd prefer not having +x% mitigation or -x% incdmg buffs anywhere, as long as things in lotro stack additive.
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  16. #16
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    ...swapped a fairly useless reflect for a what, +40% incoming healing buff with a ~100% uptime?
    The new incoming healing buff is right around +7.5% (which can be maintained 100%), with a +~15% from Thunderous roar, which - once I've tweaked its cooldown to take its legacy into account - should have less than a 33% uptime. These should not stack.

    Will bear tanks be overbuffed? Possibly. I'm not afraid to come in and make some quick nerfs if it comes to it. Worst comes to worst they get a few weeks of glory.

    -Vastin

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    The new incoming healing buff is right around +7.5% (which can be maintained 100%), with a +~15% from Thunderous roar, which - once I've tweaked its cooldown to take its legacy into account - should have less than a 33% uptime. These should not stack.

    Will bear tanks be overbuffed? Possibly. I'm not afraid to come in and make some quick nerfs if it comes to it. Worst comes to worst they get a few weeks of glory.

    -Vastin
    Does this mean that despite this most likely being the last round of Bullroarer changes for Beornings, there are still going to be small fixes thrown in here and there? That is promising news.

    And at least on paper, blue Beornings sound incredibly overbuffed to be perfectly honest. I would have been happy without receiving block, especially after finding out that we had heavy armour. When it comes down to it, the ability to block, while nice, probably won't change too much other than making itemization smoother for you guys for tanks.


    A tl;dr of my thoughts on the Beorning changes is blue sounds overtuned, red sounds underwhelming (although the changes mention nothing about damage numbers so we shall see), and yellow sounds like it got slightly nerfed.

    When it comes to yellow (the line I'm most familiar with), I honestly don't think increasing the cooldown on Rejuvenating Bellow was really necessary. I much rather would have liked to see the Abyss set bonus (or a lesser-version of it at least) brought into the trait line if our AoE heals were getting nerfed because as it stands, the Abyss set will still basically be mandatory to heal on bear even if it is only at 33% potentcy. I'd rather that not be the case.

    Also, I'm curious about how the changes will affect blue-line gameplay. In the past, we basically were best served by going bear form and not using skills in order to keep our Wrath up. I'm wondering if these changes will actually make blue-line enjoyable, giving its skills more purpose and necessity.


    I would have loved to see a large rework such as the one that Joedangod was suggesting, as I think it would have been much more beneficial to the class in terms of both balance and enjoyability, but if we had to settle for a less grand rework, then I would tentatively say (at least until actually getting to test it out) that what you've done seems to have served its purpose in at least making Beornings more viable.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    The new incoming healing buff is right around +7.5% (which can be maintained 100%), with a +~15% from Thunderous roar, which - once I've tweaked its cooldown to take its legacy into account - should have less than a 33% uptime. These should not stack.

    Will bear tanks be overbuffed? Possibly. I'm not afraid to come in and make some quick nerfs if it comes to it. Worst comes to worst they get a few weeks of glory.

    -Vastin
    If the imbued legacy is now a ~50% increase on a 5% effect to produce ~7.5% incoming healing it'll be the one and only legacy that works that way. Pretty much every % legacy that applies to a +x% effect that I can think of does it by straight up adding X to the original percentage rather than improving it by x%.

    Regardless the core thing you missed in the feedback on blue line was the fact that blue line is so hilariously, ridiculously, insanely trivial to play. Aggro is a total non-issue and even with the thunderous roar nerf that probably won't change. The difference now is that Beornings don't have to play smart to survive now, because their defence straight up rivals/exceeds Guardians.

    Please, if you listen to one thing I say; gut the physical mitigation trait and make "Guarded" something that requires actual effort to maintain stacks, give the class some kind of skillcap.
    ~ The devs don't want to balance classes, what chance did I have ~

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    OK folks. It's been a busy few weeks here. I'll try and summarize the bulk of the changes I've been making to Beornings. I recently posted the final version of these changes and they'll be showing up in the next major patch. Lets begin by discussing the purpose of this revamp, as there are a few goals I wanted to achieve.


    -Vastin

    Im actually really happy with a lot of these changes! I had been a little disappointed to date, but there are a lot of good changes here. I do want to ask about the choices for execute? The skill feels like it may be nearly useless now that the CD has been so drastically increased, and it cannot crit, and the free proc still consumes all wrath. I feel like with a major damage buff, 2 of those 3 would be ok, but not all 3.

    Also, has any work been done on any other legacies? For example, the Imbued call to the wild legacy is a real nerf compared to unimbued. The loss of the duration is not at all made up for by the increased physical mastery. Can we please nerf the amount of phys. mast. given and add duration back in?

    Also, has any work be done to add more legacies? I feel like this topic has been brought up on other posts but never addressed. The lack of legacies hurts, especially because the quality of many of them (and the scaling) is so much lower than other classes. The damage legacies for Bear skills are across the board lower than every other class.

    Thanks!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    *Snip*

    -Vastin
    Thanks Vastin, that's a much more comprehensive set of changes than I think anyone was expecting when you made your first post in the revamp thread. Reading through it all was quite amusing as it seemed a lot like buff after buff after buff, with not much in the way of nerfs to counter them...so it'll be interesting to see what you've unleashed with Beorning 2.0.

    It'd be great if you could clarify a few things though:

    Composure - Since it isn't mentioned explicitly, has the cooldown change been reverted? i.e. back to 14 seconds again?

    Sacrifice - You previously mentioned this would become available in both man and bear form, is that still the case? Does it run for the full 20 second duration as expected?

    Animalistic - With the shift in bear form wrath generation, is this now increasing wrath gained every 3 seconds? It might make more sense to instead tie some form of active effect to it which carries a significant wrath cost. A 15% reflect perhaps? In reality though...maybe something that ties in to Guarded Attack since that skill becomes quite redundant once you have unlocked the bonus trait Defensively Minded. Like spend 50-100 wrath to allow Guarded Attack to temporarily refresh the duration of one or several of our other defensive buffs: Assertive Roar, Counter, Vigilant/Thunderous Roar and Thickened Hide.

    Call To Wild - In a similar vein to the above, +5/-5 to wrath generators/spenders maybe isn't that suitable a bonus any more? It could be a good chance to add in some more involved interaction with our other skills since the red trait line in particular is a pretty sparse affair. You get half as many new active skills as you do in blue and yellow and it certainly shows. My own feeling is that it would be nice to see some more red line emphasis placed on the interplay and damage potential of our roars and other tactical skills but anything that requires more of us in the way of thought and planning would be welcome.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post



    - Beorning forms are now treated as stances.


    -Vastin
    Does this mean that either you need to activate a skill that automatically shape-changes you or manually change shape via the stance for skills?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post


    Additional Skill & Trait Changes
    - Shake Free is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been reduced from [120->40s].
    - Vicious Claws is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been increased from [8->12s].
    - Reduced animation times of Ferocious Roar, Hearten, Composure, Shake Free, and Shapechange.

    -Vastin
    I would've honestly been happy with just that already. Thanks a lot!


    I think we are wasting time by theorycrafting right now - should wait until the update is live and then judge whether the stated goals have been accomplished. I for one am very excited to test them out.
    Make Moors Great Again - Crickhollow
    Ishlan R13 WL, Nalshi R11 Rvr, Ishnal R9 Weaver, Lashin R6 Warg
    Blato (Mini), Shilan (Ward), Sahlin (Beorn), Grobnir (Guard), Hergis (RK), Ishlun (Capt)

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Blato View Post
    I would've honestly been happy with just that already. Thanks a lot!


    I think we are wasting time by theorycrafting right now - should wait until the update is live and then judge whether the stated goals have been accomplished. I for one am very excited to test them out.
    I'll agree. After testing things for a while, Vastin can just come in and change the +5% physmits trait in blueline to something different that makes sense to be in a tanking traitline, if beornings high physmits prove to be an issue. Like an avoidance bonus or critical defense, which both are missing for beornings traits, but are available for warden/guard/cappy tanks (and even champs, if you count the trait for +10% parry after inc critical hit). All of those would be weaker, but still viable.


    Still, no tests are required to give the feedback, that the counter-counterattack style is awful and does nothing but help gain wrath in bear. Vastin himself wrote, that wrath doesnt look like an issue at all while tanking (and actually, wrath never was an issue for blue bears, because most skills were not worth using anyway), so counter-counterdefense should do somethng viable/interesting. And preferably be changed completely. If other tanks (guard/champ) permanently have reactive skills, why should bears only have reactive skills for 50% uptime, after activating a skill that otherwise doesnt do much? If other tanks (guard/cappy) have panicskills with avoidance bonusses, why shouldnt bears have one? Its nearly there and not that much of a change, but would make both skills much more interesting. We dont need wrath from counterdefense and we dont need its tiny amount of damage. Give it something useful, even if thats just more damage or AoE with bonus threat.
    Last edited by Oelle; Dec 11 2018 at 08:20 PM.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    OK folks. It's been a busy few weeks here. I'll try and summarize the bulk of the changes I've been making to Beornings. I recently posted the final version of these changes and they'll be showing up in the next major patch. Lets begin by discussing the purpose of this revamp, as there are a few goals I wanted to achieve.

    First was to 'normalize' the class skills as we have with several others. This is mainly a technical set of changes behind the scenes that make it easier to keep classes balanced level-over-level over the course of the game relative to the mob difficulty, and to make it much faster to re-balance individual skills and effects in future passes. Not exciting for you folks, but useful for us.

    Second was to work in a number of Quality of Life updates for the Beorning. Changes to how shapeshifting works, wrath generation, mobility, bugfixes and so on. The goal here is simply to make the core play cycle of the class smoother and more entertaining.

    Third was to get Beorning DPS up into a better range so that it's red line is reasonably playable in instances. Not sure if they'll end up raid-competitive, but they are a comparatively tough DPS build, so it's probably best if they don't tick in quite as high as some of the glass cannons in terms of sustained DPS. The DPS changes were broad, so Blue and Yellow line should likewise benefit from them considerably to bring up their pace of play. In general most Beorning skills were falling well below the mark in terms of damage, so this was an across-the-board change for the class. Most skills saw pretty substantial damage buffs.

    Fourth was to bring the Beorning up to a Heavy armor spec. This has two major advantages: 1) They'll be more competitive tanks in terms of mitigation. 2) They will no longer need their own unique itemization and can use similar gearing to the other heavy tanks as a Heavy/Might class. In addition, blue line Beornings will now have access to the Block ability. Between these changes and the wrath generation changes Bear tanks are getting quite a bit tougher - possibly even a bit too tough, but we'll let it ride in the current state and see how it plays out.

    The fifth and final goal was to NOT make serious changes to Beorning Yellow line healing, with the exception of a set bonus change noted below. This sounds really easy until you realize that the normalization process starts by basically resetting all your skills to zero and then I have to get them all back to where they are supposed to be. The upshot of this was that the set bonus change was necessarily a pretty big nerf, so most of the rest of their healing is getting some modest buffs to try to make sure they stay in a decent range.

    Ok, so that's the stated goals of the revamp. I'll let you decide whether we managed to achieve some or all of them. On to the actual details of the changes:

    Major Class Changes
    - Normalized All Beorning skills to standardized progressions - almost all skills will see significant changes to damage/healing values.
    - Beorning forms are now treated as stances.
    - Slash and Thrash are now usable in either form. Each skill will immediately transform you to the appropriate form for that attack before firing.
    - Beornings now learn 'Wanderlust' - the ability to use their bear form for out of combat travel - at level 15.
    - Beornings now earn the ability to wear Heavy armor as of lvl 15.
    - Blue Line Beornings are now able to block as a core line buff. They receive 2 block per Might.
    - Old beorning armor SETS have been converted to heavy armor statistically.
    - Level 116-120 Beorning armor has been converted to heavy, most lower level beorning specific armor is otherwise unchanged.
    - Beornings no longer suffer wrath decay out of combat, and now slowly gain wrath over time in bear form.

    Additional Skill & Trait Changes
    - Most Beorning DoT's and some effects are now tracked per user. They should stack on targets properly rather than interacting or overwriting each other.
    - Thrash now generates 5 Wrath rather than costing Wrath.
    - Shake Free bubble now provides 10% morale bubble (15% at rank 2)
    - Shake Free is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been reduced from [120->40s].
    - Vicious Claws is now an immediate skill. Its cooldown has been increased from [8->12s].
    - Vicious Claws Wrath cost increased [10->15].
    - Bash Wrath cost increased [10->20].
    - Nature's Mend Cooldown reduced [5->3s].
    - Rejuvenating Bellow Cooldown increased [6->9s].
    - Execute now hits much harder, with a bonus of 250% for full Wrath. Cooldown increased from [3->30s]. However, this skill can no longer Crit.
    - Execute is no longer free when Moment of Opportunity procs - you can simply use it regardless of the target's health (good for boss fights).
    - Yellow line 'In the Face Of' trait replaced with 'Overbearing'. This trait now grants a separate combat rez skill with a shorter induction, that does not replace the peaceful version of Bear Up. Overbearing should work consistently in combat.
    - Bear-form and Man-form Legacy damage bonuses should no longer stack and should affect all skills correctly.
    - All attack skills should now benefit from IA legacy 'Chance for attacks to return wrath'. Non-attack skills no longer incorrectly benefit from this legacy.
    - Abyss yellow line raid set bonus now applies Encouraging Roar's hot to the fellowship at [100%->33%] Efficiency. This set bonus proved to be seriously overpowered. The direct version of the HoT will always overwrite the fellowship version in cases where they might overlap, regardless of tier.
    - Thunderous Roar is now a separate skill from Vigilant Roar, rather then replacing it.
    - Vigilant Roar's cooldown has been reduced [14->10s].
    - Thunderous Roar now has a separate cooldown of [75s]. Overall these changes will make it harder for a bear tank to hold constant agro on large numbers of mobs, but will enhance their ability to interdict and hold targets selectively.
    - Vigilant Roar/Thunderous roar Reflect was replaced with an incoming heal buff. The inc heal buff is +5%/10% for the two skills respectively. These values are enhanced by the IA legacies that previously enhanced the reflect. The reflecting agro component against attackers remains.
    - Reduced animation times of Ferocious Roar, Hearten, Composure, Shake Free, and Shapechange.
    - Mark of Beorn no longer PBE-able.
    - The 'Quick Recovery' trait no longer reduces the HoT component of Recuperate.

    Known Issues:
    - Several skills need new icon variations to distinguish them from each other (EDIT: Partially fixed - Thunderous Roar now has its own icon)
    - Some trait tooltips have not been properly updated to reflect their changes. (EDIT: Fixed all the ones I could find.)
    - Bear Wanderlust has no new visual effects yet.
    - Slash/Thrash can be used out of form if the form cool-downs are still running. (EDIT: Fixed, slash/thrash now share a 1.5s cooldown, shapeshift has a 2s cooldown, this mostly prevents beornings from being able to attack-shift when the shift cooldown isn't up yet - mostly.)
    - Beorning taunts should not be resistable, but they still are. (EDIT: Vengeful and Thunderous Roar are no longer defined as cries, and thus cannot be resisted. They may not get cry dmg bonuses any more for now?)
    - Blue Line Thunderous Roar cooldown needs to be rebalanced for its new cooldown legacy. (EDIT: Fixed. Now 75s cooldown that reduces to 45s with legacy bonus, which should now also work - it didn't before.)
    - Mid-game/scaling instances will still tend to reward beornings with Medium armor. This will take a while to hunt down and correct all such instances.

    -Vastin
    Thank you, Vastin, I sincerely appreciate your effort (even if I whine a bit).

    I recently returned to find out that my main (captain) is completely destroyed by changes. While these changes (to Beorning) do not seem to be destructive, I'm concerned about the heal change.

    Let's keep in mind what happened over the years with Cappy. First they were hardmode, until max level, then they were unkillable and ruled the game, especially in groups (groups of cappy's that is), then they were nerfed into oblivion. Now they can't even heal themselves well enough to play landscape well. So back to hardmode.

    I don't know how Cappy fares now at endgame, but it's not worth finding out since at 105 even in Blue, the heals are 1/10 of the mob damage. You may as well have given me a 10% damage resist and taken all heals away. It would be less hassle.

    So my next hope is that the class I consider to be the 'upgraded Cappy" that is, Beorning, will be satisfying at endgame. I'll find out over the next year since I have a way to go from 75 to max.

    I'm concerned that you seem to be again making an OP tank out of a class I like because it's a jack of all trades. The risk of that being nerfed is very high, especially given the history -- that happened to captain too. Maybe it would be more fun if mobs didn't one shot anyone except a fully kitted tank? Then we could be multiclass and not get hemorrhoids worrying about stacking morale?

    You guys need to decide whether you want us to play multiclass or single class. These vicissitudes have been going on for years. And it's not that I don't welcome any changes, it's the history that worries me.

    Like I said it looks like a non destructive change, I like especially the stances concept for skin-change. Looking forward to a Beorning parade through Bree!

    Also... when do I get my /dance emote in bear form?

    Quote Originally Posted by ENDrain View Post
    So Beorning now is basically a Captain-second-in-charge, without buffs OR dps. Welcome aboard, fluffy ones.
    Yup! Let's hope the changes don't get as real as they did with Cappy.
    Last edited by gripply; Dec 11 2018 at 09:53 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by gripply View Post
    Thank you, Vastin, I sincerely appreciate your effort (even if I whine a bit).

    I recently returned to find out that my main (captain) is completely destroyed by changes. While these changes (to Beorning) do not seem to be destructive, I'm concerned about the heal change.

    Let's keep in mind what happened over the years with Cappy. First they were hardmode, until max level, then they were unkillable and ruled the game, especially in groups (groups of cappy's that is), then they were nerfed into oblivion. Now they can't even heal themselves well enough to play landscape well. So back to hardmode.

    I don't know how Cappy fares now at endgame, but it's not worth finding out since at 105 even in Blue, the heals are 1/10 of the mob damage. You may as well have given me a 10% damage resist and taken all heals away. It would be less hassle.

    So my next hope is that the class I consider to be the 'upgraded Cappy" that is, Beorning, will be satisfying at endgame. I'll find out over the next year since I have a way to go from 75 to max.

    I'm concerned that you seem to be again making an OP tank out of a class I like because it's a jack of all trades. The risk of that being nerfed is very high, especially given the history -- that happened to captain too. Maybe it would be more fun if mobs didn't one shot anyone except a fully kitted tank? Then we could be multiclass and not get hemorrhoids worrying about stacking morale?

    You guys need to decide whether you want us to play multiclass or single class. These vicissitudes have been going on for years. And it's not that I don't welcome any changes, it's the history that worries me.

    Like I said it looks like a non destructive change, I like especially the stances concept for skin-change. Looking forward to a Beorning parade through Bree!

    Also... when do I get my /dance emote in bear form?



    Yup! Let's hope the changes don't get as real as they did with Cappy.
    I agree here. While on the legendary server captain damage and healing in all lines is actually pretty decent, fact is that when you hit 90+ the class can't win the war of attrition with regular landscape trash anymore. Yellow becomes required and kills so slow that it becomes too frustrating to play.

    The captain needs their damage "normalized" as well. After these changes, captains will likely start to become as scarce as beornings.

 

 
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