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  1. #1

    Exclamation Champion in blue line: changes needed (2)

    This topic is dedicated to admins. I duplicate this topic in that theme. I've been playing champion class for a long time, and i want to play blue line (tank) as well. But when i started trying at this update, i realized that need some changes at that line, because without it champion cant be fully good tank.
    1) Aggro problems.
    Champion has 2 skills that increases threat and make forced attack, and NO any other aggro skills: 1 solo-target aggro skill ("Champions challenge": cooldown is 30 seconds), and 1 AOE aggro skill ("True heroics": cooldown is 2 minutes!!!!!). There is no way to reduce their cooldown (no legacies, talents). So, how it works? Champion can tank pack of monsters only once per 2 minutes, and there is no right on mistake, because if the party has strong AOE dps, he will reaggro all monsters, and champion dont have any skills to aggro a pack except of True heroics. Champions AOE skills in blue line just do a small damage, and cant reaggro them back.
    My offer is to:
    - Lower cooldown of "True heroics" in blue line (make at least 1 minute cooldown)
    - Add to at least one AOE skill increasing threat effect ("Horn of champions" or "Riposte")
    2) Block/parry/evade and mitigations
    Champion has only 1 way to increase parry: talent "Fight through the pain" upon being critically hit: +10% parry increase.
    There are no skills, unlike other tanks, to increase block, parry or evade, so champions are kind of "punching bags". The same way, they cant wear shields, so they need to put in gear many mitigation essences (physical or tactical), so there is no space to put many block/parry/evade essenses. Tactical mitigation is the separate topic for the heavy armor classes. Heavy armor have the lowest rates of tactical mitigation among the light and medium armors. So if you want to tank monsters who deal tactical damage, with heavy armor, and WITHOUT shield, you need to place 10+ tactical mitigation essenses in your gear, so you physically can't place block/parry/evade essences because critical defence same needed.
    My offer is to:
    - Add to some skills block/parry or evade buffs in blue line that can be maintained during the battle (Look at wardens, they have cap of all mitigations and cap of block/parry/evades during the battles, because they wear medium armor (higher tactical mitigation than heavy), and many skills to buffs themselves)
    3) Useless skill "Dire need"
    The skill "Dire need" talent with an additional talent "Improved dire need". They both in total costs 6 trait points. Maximum healing with that skill is 25-30k to morale with a long cooldown, same as athelas essence. 25-30k is one monster hit (monster, not even boss), so what is usage of that skill that costs 6 trait points??
    My offer is to:
    - increase morale heal (on 100% morale), because otherwise there is no point to put trait points on it.
    4) Skill "Sudden defence" and passive trait to it "good defence/strong offence"
    "Sudden defence" has a maximum of about 43k morale bubble even with a legacy on rune. This value is too low. Bubble ends in 1-2 monsters hits, so it makes passive trait "good defence/strong offence" to become useless, because it works only while you have active bubble on you.
    My offer is to:
    - higher bubble value of skill "sudden defence" or to change this passive trait "good defence/strong offence" on something more useful at tank build.
    5) The final passive trait in blue line "Invincible"
    How is that trait works? For each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased while "Adamant" is active. Seriously? Skill "Adamant" is active for 15 seconds with legacy on rune. Without legacy, it lasts 10 seconds. With a 1 minute cooldown. I think that this passive "Invincible" is fully useless.
    My offer is to:
    - rework the last passive trait in blue line. May be it should work like that - for each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased (without any "adamants" or other skills). Or to make something new and useful at tank build.

    Dear admins. I said a lot at this topic, but i really want you to improve champions tanking opportunity, and may be any other useful changes. And as an experienced player for that class i made some offers to you to think about. You make many changes to other classes. Champions dont have the highest damage among the other classes. And they are melee, so in dungeons need to be careful, because melee are always at the epicenter of battles. So dont forget about brave class Champion. Dont let it die
    Last edited by xxAntimagexx; Dec 03 2018 at 10:02 AM.

  2. #2
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    Signed. Champion blue line needs serious rework.
    Telliol, Champion of Laurelin.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkryft View Post
    Signed. Champion blue line needs serious rework.
    Why?

  4. #4
    Yep, agro problems are just ridiculous. I may not be the best champion tank but at the beginning of the patch when everyone's gear was trash I was doing just fine in terms of agro but now, the only reliable way to keep agro is through force taunts.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fewd View Post
    Yep, agro problems are just ridiculous. I may not be the best champion tank but at the beginning of the patch when everyone's gear was trash I was doing just fine in terms of agro but now, the only reliable way to keep agro is through force taunts.
    The Chank I play with regularly has 0 issues, even when against other champs in AOE.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    The Chank I play with regularly has 0 issues, even when against other champs in AOE.
    Blue champion has great AoE capabilites with sweeping riposte being able to cut animations regularly and consistently, champions are probably the easiest dps class to tank for as a blue champ. The real problem is experienced glass canon hunters and rune-keepers, which my kinnies thoroughly enjoy playing. Now, you can force taunt something for 10 seconds and get agro permanently, in that situation you have to try to lose agro. The problem arrives when you can't chain your force taunts, or force taunt at all for that matter, and you have to rely on your measly dps to generate agro while being chain cc'ed, which seems to be a recurring theme with the new instances. I had no agro problems at 115 cap but this new cluster is incredibly frustrating for champion tanks.

  7. #7
    Zipifile: You don't seem to play a champ yourself, else you would see the difference between Chank and Guard.

    Chanks lack:
    - Self heal. Fight On? 30% heal over 20 seconds...to slow. Bracing Attack? Didn't scale, heals 5k? Pitiful. Dire Need? Scales from Maximum Power. Pitiful too, and probably the worst skill in the category power cost vs. healing effect (~20k heal for ~2,500 power).
    - Effect removal. We can remove one wound/poison/... each 45 seconds. 15 seconds with weapon legacy. Guards? Remove four effects each 5 seconds when traited. I'm a bit envious here.
    - Panic buttons. Chanks have none that deserve the name. Dire need imho should be a (weaker) equivalent to Warrior's Heart, but does meaningless heal. Sudden Defence bubble was strengthened not long ago, but breaks after two hits. Unbreakable? Only raises max morale, and gives a rating value to tactical mitigations that wasn't scaled to Mordor levels. Adamant? A bit of damage reduction, but won't help very long.

    What else is wrong?
    - Two of our passive traits (Unstable & Fight through the Pain) rely on being critically hit. This isn't the best mechanic to begin with, since every partial/full BPE or resist negates an incoming crit. Meaning the higher we raise BPE and resistance, the more we nerf our own traits. This is stupid. When Turbine changed BPE so we get much more partials, a side effect what that these two traits are even less triggered.
    - A lot of passives increase damage. I would rather see them increasing defenses. Blue line is our tanking line.
    - We had a nice Incoming Healing main legacy on our rune. But it is rating based. Rating wasn't scaled with Mordor, it gives what? Like 2% incoming healing when you stuff 22 crystals into your rune. Quite useless now...
    - We have a passive trait that reflects damage. Which is fun most of the time, but disruptive when we aren't allowed to damage certain enemies, or a boss reflects. (Boss hits us, we reflect, he reflects back. Thanks Obama.) Could be fixed by making the reflect trait a toggle.

    I think Blue line needs a redesign. You can add some band aids (e.g. making Dire Need a percent based heal), but a lot of things simply need to be reworked.

  8. The issue is not that one cannot tank effectively. The issue is that almost everyone who builds for tanking does so by going mildly blue, heavy yellow. The blue line traits are either poorly designed or haven't scaled well.

    Ideally, all three trait lines will be interesting and viable. A situation where the optimal build for a champion tank ignores 60% of the blue line traits is simply not great design.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    Zipifile: You don't seem to play a champ yourself, else you would see the difference between Chank and Guard.

    Chanks lack:
    - Self heal. Fight On? 30% heal over 20 seconds...to slow. Bracing Attack? Didn't scale, heals 5k? Pitiful. Dire Need? Scales from Maximum Power. Pitiful too, and probably the worst skill in the category power cost vs. healing effect (~20k heal for ~2,500 power).
    - Effect removal. We can remove one wound/poison/... each 45 seconds. 15 seconds with weapon legacy. Guards? Remove four effects each 5 seconds when traited. I'm a bit envious here.
    - Panic buttons. Chanks have none that deserve the name. Dire need imho should be a (weaker) equivalent to Warrior's Heart, but does meaningless heal. Sudden Defence bubble was strengthened not long ago, but breaks after two hits. Unbreakable? Only raises max morale, and gives a rating value to tactical mitigations that wasn't scaled to Mordor levels. Adamant? A bit of damage reduction, but won't help very long.

    What else is wrong?
    - Two of our passive traits (Unstable & Fight through the Pain) rely on being critically hit. This isn't the best mechanic to begin with, since every partial/full BPE or resist negates an incoming crit. Meaning the higher we raise BPE and resistance, the more we nerf our own traits. This is stupid. When Turbine changed BPE so we get much more partials, a side effect what that these two traits are even less triggered.
    - A lot of passives increase damage. I would rather see them increasing defenses. Blue line is our tanking line.
    - We had a nice Incoming Healing main legacy on our rune. But it is rating based. Rating wasn't scaled with Mordor, it gives what? Like 2% incoming healing when you stuff 22 crystals into your rune. Quite useless now...
    - We have a passive trait that reflects damage. Which is fun most of the time, but disruptive when we aren't allowed to damage certain enemies, or a boss reflects. (Boss hits us, we reflect, he reflects back. Thanks Obama.) Could be fixed by making the reflect trait a toggle.

    I think Blue line needs a redesign. You can add some band aids (e.g. making Dire Need a percent based heal), but a lot of things simply need to be reworked.
    Going back and reading through the dev diaries when the trait lines were introduced, blue line tanks were intended to be off-tanks that could still do good DPS. That's why some blue line skills operate to increase damage. The idea was that blue line chanks could start soaking up damage and survive through self-heals/bubbles and killing enemies. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that was actually ever the case. By the time I got to endgame when level cap was 100, there were very few chanks. Pretty much everyone was yellow line or red line DPS.

    Either the devs needed to significantly increase blue line DPS or rework the trait line to improve heals and buffs to make it a more viable tank.

    I have some blue-line LIs and I can do some T1 3 and 6 player content as a chank, so long as everyone else knows what they are doing. But these days, most T1 content is pretty easy and doesn't usually need a full, balanced group.

  10. #10
    /signed. Chanks are even worse off in u23 than they were in Mordor (which is really saying something). I just want to give my $0.02 on the matter as someone who prefers playing my Champ in blue over red/yellow (even if trait trees butchered it).

    If you ask me, the first change that should be accomplished is that Chanks need a DPS increase. Nowadays even blue Guards can out-DPS a Chank. That is just sad if you ask me. I don't know what yellow DPS is exactly, but if a yellow champ can pull 100k DPS against 5 targets, I think a Chank should be able to do ~30-40k. The damage is the main draw of having a Chank, and yet it is massively underpowered in that respect. Chanks should be the go-to speedrunning tank in my opinion. It fits the whole "high cost/high reward" mentality of trying to shave off every second you can. If Chanks were able to get respectable DPS in a tank line, then even if they weren't the most defensive tanks, they would still have a place to shine that is their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    This topic is dedicated to admins. I duplicate this topic in that theme. I've been playing champion class for a long time, and i want to play blue line (tank) as well. But when i started trying at this update, i realized that need some changes at that line, because without it champion cant be fully good tank.
    1) Aggro problems.
    Champion has 2 skills that increases threat and make forced attack, and NO any other aggro skills: 1 solo-target aggro skill ("Champions challenge": cooldown is 30 seconds), and 1 AOE aggro skill ("True heroics": cooldown is 2 minutes!!!!!). There is no way to reduce their cooldown (no legacies, talents). So, how it works? Champion can tank pack of monsters only once per 2 minutes, and there is no right on mistake, because if the party has strong AOE dps, he will reaggro all monsters, and champion dont have any skills to aggro a pack except of True heroics. Champions AOE skills in blue line just do a small damage, and cant reaggro them back.
    My offer is to:
    - Lower cooldown of "True heroics" in blue line (make at least 1 minute cooldown)
    - Add to at least one AOE skill increasing threat effect ("Horn of champions" or "Riposte")
    This honestly is not as much a problem as you would think. The AoE that a Chank is capable of helps solidify initial agro enough, and you can use Champion's Challenge to hold whatever target the DPS is attacking, just wait until you lose it before you taunt. You forget that Chanks have a passive threat reflect when they get hit, which helps hold AoE agro off the DPS. If you have to rely on True Heroics to actually maintain agro on trash, you may want to rethink your gearing or traiting. If you trait down yellow line to grab Fury of Blades, the mitigation bypass proc on blade skills, and Great Cleave, you will have more than enough DPS to hold AoE threat. The only issue then would be whatever single target the Hunt*rds are focusing. I would like it if Horn of Champions became something akin to a Guardian's Warchant though, so we would be able to get solid AoE agro on ranged targets. At the moment, we have to be in melee range of something to actually agro it, which is pretty annoying in some situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    2) Block/parry/evade and mitigations
    Champion has only 1 way to increase parry: talent "Fight through the pain" upon being critically hit: +10% parry increase.
    There are no skills, unlike other tanks, to increase block, parry or evade, so champions are kind of "punching bags". The same way, they cant wear shields, so they need to put in gear many mitigation essences (physical or tactical), so there is no space to put many block/parry/evade essenses. Tactical mitigation is the separate topic for the heavy armor classes. Heavy armor have the lowest rates of tactical mitigation among the light and medium armors. So if you want to tank monsters who deal tactical damage, with heavy armor, and WITHOUT shield, you need to place 10+ tactical mitigation essenses in your gear, so you physically can't place block/parry/evade essences because critical defence same needed.
    My offer is to:
    - Add to some skills block/parry or evade buffs in blue line that can be maintained during the battle (Look at wardens, they have cap of all mitigations and cap of block/parry/evades during the battles, because they wear medium armor (higher tactical mitigation than heavy), and many skills to buffs themselves)
    Agreed, having these buffs (Fight Through the Pain and Unstable) being gated behind taking a critical hit is just a bad idea, especially considering nowadays a lot of enemies can't actually crit anymore. In my opinion, these should become active on defeat responses (and defeat responses should be granted by some mechanic other than actual kills as well, maybe having the Sudden Defence bubble pop?).

    The lack of a shield is something that hurts Champs, true. We can block with a 2hander, but we miss out on ~40k armour rating, which translates to ~5 essences of phys mit and ~1 essence of tact mit. This update though, tanking stats are a joke. The rating curves are just ridiculous on every single tanking stat. Personally, I dont think we need block/evade buffs in blue line. If there's any stat that gets buffed it should be Incoming Healing, as until fairly recently Chanks have always had very high incoming healing while tanking due to Bracing Attack and our class item.

    To mitigate the loss of armour we have compared to other tanks, they should bring back the old skill we had before trait trees called Improved Hedge. It gave us roughly the armour rating of a heavy shield, removed disarms, added wound resist, prevented disarms for the duration, and added a lump of crit defence rating. This is the solution we need to not fall behind other tanks mitigation-wise, but still have the 2hander for the increased damage needed to hold agro.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    3) Useless skill "Dire need"
    The skill "Dire need" talent with an additional talent "Improved dire need". They both in total costs 6 trait points. Maximum healing with that skill is 25-30k to morale with a long cooldown, same as athelas essence. 25-30k is one monster hit (monster, not even boss), so what is usage of that skill that costs 6 trait points??
    My offer is to:
    - increase morale heal (on 100% morale), because otherwise there is no point to put trait points on it.
    Dire need should be reworked to drain 40% of your current power, and restore that percentage to max morale. Rather than a wordy explanation, here's a table to explain it:
    Current Power Power Consumed Heal Provided
    100% 40% 40%
    80% 32% 32%
    50% 20% 20%
    30% 12% 12%
    This way, the skill would scale properly regardless of how the ratio between morale and power change in the future. A 40% heal on a 1 minutes cooldown really isn't even a lot when compared to other tanking classes, so I don't think it's asking for too much. It's about what the skill used to be when it was scaled properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    4) Skill "Sudden defence" and passive trait to it "good defence/strong offence"
    "Sudden defence" has a maximum of about 43k morale bubble even with a legacy on rune. This value is too low. Bubble ends in 1-2 monsters hits, so it makes passive trait "good defence/strong offence" to become useless, because it works only while you have active bubble on you.
    My offer is to:
    - higher bubble value of skill "sudden defence" or to change this passive trait "good defence/strong offence" on something more useful at tank build.
    As I said above, I would rather see a defeat response when the bubble is popped rather than what we currently have. It would integrate very well with Fight Through the Pain and Unstable if they were changed to proc on defeat responses. I'd rather not see the bubble get too ridiculously strong personally. 40k is a good amount if you ask me; if we increase it any more compared to our morale pool, it will end up being a crutch for the entire trait line. Other skills should be buffed instead in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    5) The final passive trait in blue line "Invincible"
    How is that trait works? For each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased while "Adamant" is active. Seriously? Skill "Adamant" is active for 15 seconds with legacy on rune. Without legacy, it lasts 10 seconds. With a 1 minute cooldown. I think that this passive "Invincible" is fully useless.
    My offer is to:
    - rework the last passive trait in blue line. May be it should work like that - for each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased (without any "adamants" or other skills). Or to make something new and useful at tank build.
    This is just an artifact of the legendary trait back in the day. Back then it was pretty useful because things were actually scaled well and balanced properly. Nowadays, it's useless though since we can get hit for 50% of our morale and healed back to full instantly by a healer. It'd be nice if the duration was increased or the cooldown was decreased. I would love for it to be 20s duration on a 40s cooldown personally.

    Also, I believe that Adamant/invincible should be changed to give its benefit compared to what you have when you initially use the skill rather than have it update continuously during the duration. For example, say you are at 50% morale and 5 fervour when you use it, you keep the benefits provided even when you get healed and exhaust the fervour. This would make it much better, as you won't have to stop using skills or tell a healer to stop healing you to get a DPS buff.


    Dear admins. I said a lot at this topic, but i really want you to improve champions tanking opportunity, and may be any other useful changes. And as an experienced player for that class i made some offers to you to think about. You make many changes to other classes. Champions dont have the highest damage among the other classes. And they are melee, so in dungeons need to be careful, because melee are always at the epicenter of battles. So dont forget about brave class Champion. Dont let it die [/QUOTE]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    The issue is not that one cannot tank effectively. The issue is that almost everyone who builds for tanking does so by going mildly blue, heavy yellow. The blue line traits are either poorly designed or haven't scaled well.

    Ideally, all three trait lines will be interesting and viable. A situation where the optimal build for a champion tank ignores 60% of the blue line traits is simply not great design.
    This is true. I don't even trait past Sweeping Riposte anymore in my main blue-line. The procs on receiving crits are too unreliable in situations where they would be beneficial, Dire Need is trash nowadays, and Unbreakable is a joke. There's no reason to trait past tier 4 of blue line when you can pick up things from yellow like Great Cleave, the finesse bonus, Blade Wall damage increase, Blade skill mitigation bypass, Blades of Courage, and Fury of Blades. If only Exchange of Blows was an actual trait instead of in the sidebar... That would solve many issues for both blue and red Champs...



    Also, posting this just to remind people that it really used to be a thing. I feel like I'm the only one who remembers it. Although I do vaguely remember there being a way to bring it down to ~15s cooldown, which would definitely be necessary if it was re-implemented today.

  12. #12
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    Tanking as a Champion is fun, because we get hit all the time, and Champions like that: the more we are hit, the more we are enraged, and defeating enemies while enraged is exhilarating.

    But fun as it should be, it becomes a torture in real situations. We lack the mitigations and the self heals of the other tanks, so we simply get hit, get enraged, and then die, while other tanks survive and finish the instance.

    I'm not talking about raids, since, realistically, very few Champions aspire to be tanks in raids. I'm thinking about regular 3 and 6 person instances. Champions aren't designed to survive T2 tanking (let's not even get started with trying to survive the new T3 difficulty), just T1 --and not easily. This needs to change, we need much higher survivavility in blue line.

    In the past we could use a heavy shield. I never understood the criticism that we didn't have skills for the shield so we'd better drop it altogether. We don't have skills for the off-hand weapon either but that doesn't prevent us from using it. The real problem when using the heavy shield was that our dps was low, so we couldn't hold aggro. The fix, though, didn't really improve Champion tanking: we have slightly better aggro but we lost the mitigations of the shield.

    If there's no way to get back the heavy shield (even if we so evidently need it), we need some alternative way to raise our mitigations, as mentioned by ColMcStacky (mind you, Hedge wasn't an alternative to the heavy shield, but an addition to it). But we're not talking about raising the mitigations something like 10 seconds in a minute CD. Our mitigations need a permanent increase while tanking. Then, on top of that, we could use Adamant to get a short time 90% decrease of damage, both physical and tactical. Again: tanks need to be alive, and we don't have self heals worth mentioning.

    Survivavility also is related to wounds and poisons and other harmful effects. After the last updates, these effects have seen a notable increase in damage. I find that other tanks have better ways of dealing with wounds. I'd propose Continuous Blood Rage to work in the blue line too, and to give a temporary immunity to all effects (in the Berserker tradition). I often find myself with 4 or 5 wounds, and even if the battle ends and I'm out of combat, I can see how my morale sinks and I end up dying.

    Then, if the blue line was revamped to give us more survivavility (as it should), we must consider also aggro management. We have enough aggro with our passive reflect for regular situations, but we need more taunts. It has already been mentioned. A 2 min CD in our only aoe taunt is just ridiculous. Often new monsters arrive in the middle of the battle and we need a realiable way to aggro them. I'd say, give a legendary legacy to our taunts, and make Champions's Challenge go down to 15 sec CD and True Heroics to 30 sec CD.

    All in all: Champion tanking needs much more survivavility and more ways to manage aggro. As it is, it barely allows to tank a bit in 3 man instances T1, but it falls very short of what Guardians, Captains, Wardens and Beornings can do.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    419
    While we're at it:
    Sprint (Champion): +25% run speed, 5 minute cooldown.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Charge (Guardian): +50% run speed, 1 minute cooldown.
    Make Haste (Captain): +25% run speed, 2 minute cooldown, fellowship wide!
    Rush (Beorning): +25% run speed, 1 minute cooldown.
    Ambush (Warden): +50% run speed, 30 seconds cooldown, target knocked down.
    Forced March (Warden): +38% run speed, "non-combat" (basically shuts off once you engage the enemy), 1.5 second cooldown.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Call of the Second Age (Minstrel): +10% run speed, 30 seconds cooldown, fellowship.

    Could we please get this balanced so we can engage things before our red/yellow cousins SHING-SHING and grab all the aggro? Particularly in light of our minimal taunts? Even the Minstrels have better uptime than we do!
    Last edited by Seschat; Dec 23 2018 at 11:05 AM.
    Immigrant from the City of Paragon. We are heroes. This is what we do.

    Founding member of Mornost Gwend of Gladden. "We shout a lot!"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Seschat View Post
    While we're at it:
    Sprint (Champion): +25% run speed, 5 minute cooldown.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Charge (Guardian): +50% run speed, 1 minute cooldown.
    Make Haste (Captain): +25% run speed, 2 minute cooldown, fellowship wide!
    Rush (Beorning): +25% run speed, 1 minute cooldown.
    Ambush (Warden): +50% run speed, 30 seconds cooldown, target knocked down.
    Forced March (Warden): +38% run speed, "non-combat" (basically shuts off once you engage the enemy), 1.5 second cooldown.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Call of the Second Age (Minstrel): +10% run speed, 30 seconds cooldown, fellowship.

    Could we please get this balanced so we can engage things before our red/yellow cousins SHING-SHING and grab all the aggro? Particularly in light of our minimal taunts? Even the Minstrels have better uptime than we do!
    Beorninger can skill his run speed fellowship wide^^
    But i have to add that champ Sprint ignores slows, most other movementspeed skills/buff dont.
    Gertes

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Beorninger can skill his run speed fellowship wide^^
    But i have to add that champ Sprint ignores slows, most other movementspeed skills/buff dont.
    In my defense, my Beorning is only 31st level, and hasn't been my focus for quite some time.
    Immigrant from the City of Paragon. We are heroes. This is what we do.

    Founding member of Mornost Gwend of Gladden. "We shout a lot!"

  16. #16
    Join Date
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    The real problem with champ tank that he was intended to tank through DPS. You can see many abilities that increase DPS. But this was made during times when equip was unified, i.e. 1 set for each class. Nowadays, you need tanking gear, and in tanking gear you have zero DPS (and you now that 0*x = 0). So the real problem is that champ intended to tank doing decent damage but there is no damage in tanking gear. And without tanking gear you can't tank. Circle.
    Telliol, Champion of Laurelin.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkryft View Post
    The real problem with champ tank that he was intended to tank through DPS. You can see many abilities that increase DPS. But this was made during times when equip was unified, i.e. 1 set for each class. Nowadays, you need tanking gear, and in tanking gear you have zero DPS (and you now that 0*x = 0). So the real problem is that champ intended to tank doing decent damage but there is no damage in tanking gear. And without tanking gear you can't tank. Circle.
    This. And the same goes for any class/spec -> the gear design is half the problem, the other half is the skill/traits/legacies design. Chanks have severe problems in both areas.

    IMO Chanks should be designed around 2 ideas:
    * Main Tanking - in full tank gear and all traits in blue taken. That will require a severe trait revamp.
    * Offtanking - should be in dps gear with the chank choosing blue line and blue traits for extra defense, but most of points spent in yellow /red line

    The key to implement this duality is to make the basic blue trait (the one that allows to block with a 2H) to boost the damage of attack skills by a lot, and at the same time making the last talent in the blue line change this behavior, so that the chank-MT loses the damage buff and receive large BPE/Mit buffs.

    Lets say: basic blue trait -> Can block with 2H or 2W, attack skills do +50% damage (example)
    Ultimate talent -> The champion loses the +50% damage, but gains +15% Phys and Tactical Mits, +10% Block, Parry and Evade, +10% incoming heal, +25% threat generated.

    Something like that - It needs to be balanced of course.

    The stats in full blue + Tank gear should be nearly equal to other tank classes. The damage in off-tank spec is the hard part, requires live testing to balance things out.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    66
    By the way, just to make things clearer, these are the defensive stats that a heavy shield brings to bear:

    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...er_(Defensive)

    10% ranged defence (no essence available)
    18051 crit defence (1,9 t12 essences)
    2060 vitality (2,4 t12 essences)
    31590 block (3,4 t12 essences)
    809 might (1 t12 essence)
    7561 tact mitigation (1 t12 essence)

    43037 armour = 5,5 t12 phys mit essences + 1,1 tact mit t12 essences.

    Total: 1,9+2,4+3,4+1+1+5,5+1,1=16,3 t12 essences
    + 10% ranged mitigation

    No wonder Champions die if we compare them with Guardians!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    By the way, just to make things clearer, these are the defensive stats that a heavy shield brings to bear:

    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...er_(Defensive)

    10% ranged defence (no essence available)
    18051 crit defence (1,9 t12 essences)
    2060 vitality (2,4 t12 essences)
    31590 block (3,4 t12 essences)
    809 might (1 t12 essence)
    7561 tact mitigation (1 t12 essence)

    43037 armour = 5,5 t12 phys mit essences + 1,1 tact mit t12 essences.

    Total: 1,9+2,4+3,4+1+1+5,5+1,1=16,3 t12 essences
    + 10% ranged mitigation

    No wonder Champions die if we compare them with Guardians!
    Exactly. Even if we forget about the Might and Crit Def (most tanks don't purposefully build it), that's still 13.4 t12 essences less than Guards just on virtue of a missing shield.
    Even if we just look at the Armour and Tact Mit, that's 6.6 + 1 = 7.6 t12 essences on mitigation differences alone.


    Even comparing us to Light Shields, we are still way too far behind:

    This is what my Cappy is currently using, and it's not even close to the best shield available. Comparing to t12 Mithrin Essence of ____:
    19,954 Armour (2.6 Phys Mit, 0.5 Tact Mit)
    5986 Crit Def (0.6 essences)
    1840 Vit (2.1 essences)
    1349 Might (1.6 essences)
    15714 Block (1.7 essences)
    2993 Parry (0.3 essences)

    This gives, compared to what I stress is not even a decent Cappy shield, 9.4 essences behind Cappies because of the shield alone. Mitigation-wise, my Chank is 3.1 essences behind my Cappy. When including Vitality, that goes up to 5.2 essences. To put this into perspective, there are 10 essence slots on our armour (not counting jewellery, as not all jewellery has essences slots) using the new gear from t3 instances.



    Now, I'm not saying I want shields, because I don't. That'd change the whole spirit of a tanking Champ. For starters, I just want some way to bring Chanks up to par with other tanks stat-wise, as we have fallen way too far behind every other tank in this department. I'd be happy if we got extra Armour rating from somewhere, and passive stats on 2hander LIs got buffed.

    Passives/offhands used to be what made up for the loss of shield stats, as the Armour didn't make or break a build back in the day. Now though we have to use a 2hander for Block, and passives haven't scaled at all since level 100. Below are my tank LIs I use on my Champ. Where are we supposed to get the stats from if these systems aren't being updated with major stat changes?


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    66
    Just a heads up about curent Champ tanking.

    I've tanked Glimmerdeep T2 three times, and it's essentially doable as long as we remember some basic things.

    1. All armour pieces must be teal (better if they're above level 370) and all essences T12. Most of the jewellery (or all of it) should be teal too.
    2. The Tome of defence (-10% incoming damage) is a big help.
    3. There are 2 kinds of food that help against wounds: Bowl of Kasha and Bowl of Shchi. Use both.
    4. The classical setting tank+dps+healer is needed, forget about so called "fast runs" with tank + 2 dps. Still, for the trash pulls the healer can go dps.

    And last but not least:

    5. The fight with the final boss needs a different approach than with another tank. Instead of tanking the boss, I go dps. In red we have Continuous Blood Rage, which gives a very high protection against wounds. It would be nice to have it in the tanking line too, but we don't. So, what I do is I let the dps player kite-dps the boss while I do some autoattack, and I wait for the 2 waves of adds to show up. When the adds come I pop Continuos Blood Rage, I stun them with Horn of Gondor and I essentially nuke them as fast as I can. It works all right, as long as you have good dps stats (which as a Champion you should have, of course). After I kill the 2 waves of adds, if the dps player is ranged he will have strong aggro on the boss and I can go dps at melee distance. If the dps player is another Champion, I can challenge the boss and kite it while the Champion goes at melee distance.

    In my tanking setting I'm currently at 52.2 Phys Mit, 50.3 tact mit and 207 k morale, all unbuffed. I still miss a couple of pieces of teal jewellery, though, so there's some (small) room for improvement.
    Last edited by Maeg; Jan 12 2019 at 01:56 PM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    Just a heads up about curent Champ tanking.

    I've tanked Glimmerdeep T2 three times, and it's essentially doable as long as we remember some basic things.

    1. All armour pieces must be teal (better if they're above level 370) and all essences T12. Most of the jewellery (or all of it) should be teal too.
    2. The Tome of defence (-10% incoming damage) is a big help.
    3. There are 2 kinds of food that help against wounds: Bowl of Kasha and Bowl of Shchi. Use both.
    4. The classical setting tank+dps+healer is needed, forget about so called "fast runs" with tank + 2 dps. Still, for the trash pulls the healer can go dps.

    And last but not least:

    5. The fight with the final boss needs a different approach than with another tank. Instead of tanking the boss, I go dps. In red we have Continuous Blood Rage, which gives a very high protection against wounds. It would be nice to have it in the tanking line too, but we don't. So, what I do is I let the dps player kite-dps the boss while I do some autoattack, and I wait for the 2 waves of adds to show up. When the adds come I pop Continuos Blood Rage, I stun them with Horn of Gondor and I essentially nuke them as fast as I can. It works all right, as long as you have good dps stats (which as a Champion you should have, of course). After I kill the 2 waves of adds, if the dps player is ranged he will have strong aggro on the boss and I can go dps at melee distance. If the dps player is another Champion, I can challenge the boss and kite it while the Champion goes at melee distance.

    In my tanking setting I'm currently at 52.2 Phys Mit, 50.3 tact mit and 207 k morale, all unbuffed. I still miss a couple of pieces of teal jewellery, though, so there's some (small) room for improvement.
    This is not tanking, this is pulling a bait and switch, going to the final fight and letting someone else fill the role of tank. It's a viable solution, and works for you, but in regards to champion tanking, it is not. A viable champion tank would grab the final boss, and be able to take the adds, and have the skills to mitigate the damage and self heals enough to keep the aggro from the healer keeping you alive.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Okugi View Post
    This is not tanking, this is pulling a bait and switch, going to the final fight and letting someone else fill the role of tank. It's a viable solution, and works for you, but in regards to champion tanking, it is not. A viable champion tank would grab the final boss, and be able to take the adds, and have the skills to mitigate the damage and self heals enough to keep the aggro from the healer keeping you alive.
    Well this is the nature of the last boss in glimmerdeep, tanks are not needed here. As long people keep exploiting the boss, you are always faster without an tank.
    Gertes

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by Okugi View Post
    This is not tanking, this is pulling a bait and switch, going to the final fight and letting someone else fill the role of tank. It's a viable solution, and works for you, but in regards to champion tanking, it is not. A viable champion tank would grab the final boss, and be able to take the adds, and have the skills to mitigate the damage and self heals enough to keep the aggro from the healer keeping you alive.
    You use a fairly harsh expression. I don't think I'm swindling anyone. On the contrary, a Hunter and a Minstrel who did the kiting in 2 different tries --both said that they had more fun than with their usual roles. I guess trying something new now and then shouldn't be considered such a horrible thing.

    But, as it happens, this evening I wasn't leader and the LM leader of the group said that he preferred the classic tanky approach. I expressed my doubts but we tried. Champion tanking, Hunter and LM. I lost aggro to the Hunter very quickly, so I used Champion's Challenge. I lost aggro again and I used True Heroics. Immediately after that the first wave of adds came. I couldn't aggro all of them while kiting, there were a few moments of chaos and the Hunter died (the boss killed him with aoe). With the Hunter dead I quickly gained aggro of the adds while I kept kiting the boss. The Hunter took some time to come back and by then the first wave of adds were dead, the LM (and I) killed them. I didn't lose aggro anymore, probably because the Hunter had died. I had True Heroics ready when the second wave of adds came and there were no further problems until the end. As I say, I was surprised that I didn't lose aggro again, perhaps Hunter wasn't giving his 100% dps.

    So, there you go, I took the boss, I took the adds and we finished the instance. It was more difficult (and it took more time) than the way I explained before, but it can be done.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Okugi View Post
    This is not tanking, this is pulling a bait and switch, going to the final fight and letting someone else fill the role of tank. It's a viable solution, and works for you, but in regards to champion tanking, it is not. A viable champion tank would grab the final boss, and be able to take the adds, and have the skills to mitigate the damage and self heals enough to keep the aggro from the healer keeping you alive.
    And this is partially why Chanks need to be reworked. Especially with u23, we are just terrible. With the current stat curves, we aren't even remotely comparable on virtue of being behind others thanks to lacking 10+ essences from not having a shield. On top of that, 2/3 of our traits are useless for tanking, and now we can't even trait Fury of Blades from yellow to help us maintain agro on a tank that has terrible taunts and does less damage than a blue Guard.

    Mordor was bad, but at least it was still possible to be a Chank and not feel like a complete liability to the group. Now, our blue line might as well be deleted. It needs some serious attention from Vastin to be viable.

  25. #25
    I have to say that I love this forum thread. I see some really great ideas. Chanking has become really popular among champs in my kin, mostly due to the improvements to Riposte and Sudden Defense that have made this line more viable while still holding to the classic champion playstyle (i.e., Leroy was one of our own).

    What I see is the problem

    Despite improvements, I am amazed at how quickly champs (and Wardens) became less viable as a result of the changes to gear and stats in with u23. The stats on the shields were greatly enhanced and tweaked to compensate for the specific needs of captains, and wardens especially. Guardian shields are still crazy OP. But champs and bears have nothing, and with the need to stack mitigation, this has left champ tanks behind, to the point where I feel that champs aren’t viable as tanks in T3s (even with a strong party). With mechanical scaling, the stat disparities between classes become magnified, and when I have tried to compensate for this problem using essences to maximize my defense stats, my champ’s damage is so low that hunters can easily pull mobs off of me, even after I have been building aggro for a while. So I absolutely agree with the comments above that the stat disparity is serious and has diminished some of the great class work already completed.

    Cross-Class Solution
    Having said that, I love the changes made to shields and the new tanking stat curves. I agree though that mitigation stacking is a problem. You have essence slots but no choice in what to equip. One way to address this I think would be for heavy classes to receive a cross-class boast to their tactical mitigation. Personally, I think vitality should provide might/agility classes with tactical mitigation, and that the tactical mitigation provided by vitality to will classes should be reduced. This would correct for the current imbalance where it is easier for light armour classes to reach the mitigation cap, ironically making them sturdier than heavies in any situation involving raid/fellowship wide tactical attacks. The raid designers of Anvil(ofW) at least seem to be aware of this problem, as most fellowship/raid wide damage is physical, but a long-term balanced solution is still required. I feel that a simple tweak like this could go a long way.

    Champ Specific Solutions
    But in terms of Champs, specifically, I would love to see a long-term solution that addresses their lack of shield. Modifications to either/both the specialization trait Invincible and the Unbreakable capstone would be awesome. Both traits are under performing and need rework.
    1. One solution would be for Invincible to provide a passive % based buff to armour that is equivalent to the proportion of armour accorded to Captains by their light shield. Using current armour stats as a guide (~130k armour from other gear and ~30k armour from shield) this buff ought to be approximately +25% amour rating (current armour x 1.25). This has the advantage of providing an armour increase that is proportionate to the champs current level of gear.
    2. Something similar could be worked out to increase parry rating, but my personal preference would be for block rating to added to champ's parry rating (removing their ability to block but ensuring that tank gear with block is useful for champs). This might seem like a bit of a nerf, but block avoidance provides very little damage reduction (due to our low b/p/e stats) and the increased parry would be helpful for riposte (as well as more in keeping with the fact that champs do not have a shield).
    3. Finally, I would like to see the CD on Unbreakable cut in half (to 1 minute) and the amount of tactical mitigation granted increased. Right now at max tier, it provides the equivalent of 2.5 essences of tact. mit. Something closer to 4 essences and a shorter CD would make it worthy of its "capstone" status, while addressing a serious gap in mitigation stats.
    4. Might Roar, in turn, should be enhanced to become a high threat AoE attack (but not another aggro copy), allowing champs to sacrifice the short term defensive stats/morale in order to build aggro if necessary (or at the end of unbreakable's expiration if less urgently needed).

    Lower Priority Wish List

    1. Dire Need and the power loss/morale gain mechanic is still very under powered as others have noted. I also find the power loss for morale gain mechanic generally untenable as when times are dire, you want a skill that improves your situation and allows for greater stability not one that is likely to make the situation less predicable. What I really wish this skill did was something like a combination of the Captain's skill "In Harms Way" and their skill "Time of Need". This would grant the champion a reduction in their attack duration, a parry event, full fervour, and grace period where the champ takes half off the damage of their fellowship (preferably at a slight reduced rate). This would be really useful when champs are trying to regain lost aggro, but at the same time, doesn't make chanking a cakewalk. In comparison to Captains and Bear, the self-sacrificing mechanic is more in line with risky playstyle of champs.
    2. It would also be great if Bracing Attack had a chance to proc an 5-10 second increase to its incoming healing buff, instead of the current legacy that does little to increase the strength of this heal, and a slightly reduced CD (25s) as well a providing a guaranteed Parry event. Again, a small gain here would do wonders.
    Last edited by keztryl; Jan 20 2019 at 01:47 PM.

 

 
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