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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    ...
    For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. For some of your specific suggestions, I would rather see something else, but if they were implemented Chanks would be in a much better place than they are now.

    My TL;DR:

    Stats:
    • Vitality should give Tact Mit for all classes, just like it used to back in the day. Tank classes should get 1.5 or 2 points of Tact Mit per Vitality. All others get 1:1.


    Champ Specific:
    1. I'd push traits one step further, and say the majority of our traits are underperforming, not just Unbreakable and Invincible. I don't find much use at all in traiting anything below Sweeping Riposte myself. After that, you get more benefit by spending the rest in yellow than going further down blue.
      • Invincible being an Armour buff would definitely help us a lot. I'd love to see this.
    2. Rolling Block rating into Parry rating would be interesting, but I think it would hurt us a bit. Unless the Parry percentage caps get doubled and the diminishing returns greatly reduced, it would be a nerf. Not to mention I'm not even sure if they can implement something like that, as it doesn't exist in the game currently as far as I'm aware. Having the increased Riposte proc chance would be amazing though, especially on single target boss fights.
    3. Unbreakable needs a complete rework if you ask me. It has many issues. Long cooldown for little benefit; Tact Mit buff not scaling at all since level 95 (and being rating based); tier 10 expiring because the buff does not refresh once you reach tier 10 and get hit; Mighty Roar scaling off of Tactical Mastery and not Physical Mastery just to name a few.
    4. I would love this Mighty Roar change, so long as its damage/threat scaling was appropriate in context of other classes' DPS.


    Low Priority:
    1. As for Dire Need, I've made my own recommendations here (skim and look for the table in the post). This change would be very interesting though, and I think I like your suggestion better, so long as we have the tools necessary to keep us up through this extra incoming damage. I would just caution that the incoming damage would have to be mitigated a lot more heavily than on Cappy or Beorning, as we don't have any cooldown skills to use that would greatly mitigate this. Cappy's have Last Stand/Shield of the Dunedain, Beornings have Thickened Hide. And these cooldowns can be used on top of the damage mitigation that is already present by using these classes' damage redirects. We just have Adamant, which even at full potency lasts less time than all of those other cooldowns, and has close to half the damage reduction of them as well. I would also like to see it work like the Cappy's In Harm's Way over Beorning's Sacrifice in that the incoming damage reduction we get while the skill is active should be straight incoming damage reduction, and should not only apply to the damage being redirected. This would give Chanks a second decent cooldown skill to use then.
    2. I don't really understand the Bracing Attack suggestion, as we already have a pretty decent Incoming Healing buff that is present for the first 10s after using the skill. Are you saying this needs to be increased? Personally, while that may be nice, I think it would serve us better to have a HoT component added to the skill like we used to have. The cooldown reduction would be amazing though. Back before trait trees, I'm pretty sure when in Glory stance (tank stance) Bracing Attack was reduced to a 20s cooldown if I remember correctly.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. For some of your specific suggestions, I would rather see something else, but if they were implemented Chanks would be in a much better place than they are now.
    My TL;DR:
    Stats:
    • Vitality should give Tact Mit for all classes, just like it used to back in the day. Tank classes should get 1.5 or 2 points of Tact Mit per Vitality. All others get 1:1.
    Yeah. I think this would be a simple elegant solution to the current predicament.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Champ Specific:
    1. I'd push traits one step further, and say the majority of our traits are underperforming, not just Unbreakable and Invincible. I don't find much use at all in traiting anything below Sweeping Riposte myself. After that, you get more benefit by spending the rest in yellow than going further down blue.
    2. Rolling Block rating into Parry rating would be interesting, but I think it would hurt us a bit. Unless the Parry percentage caps get doubled and the diminishing returns greatly reduced, it would be a nerf. Not to mention I'm not even sure if they can implement something like that, as it doesn't exist in the game currently as far as I'm aware. Having the increased Riposte proc chance would be amazing though, especially on single target boss fights.
    3. Unbreakable needs a complete rework if you ask me. It has many issues. Long cooldown for little benefit; Tact Mit buff not scaling at all since level 95 (and being rating based); tier 10 expiring because the buff does not refresh once you reach tier 10 and get hit; Mighty Roar scaling off of Tactical Mastery and not Physical Mastery just to name a few.
    4. I would love this Mighty Roar change, so long as its damage/threat scaling was appropriate in context of other classes' DPS.
    I agree. The only trait I really like is Fight Through The Pain, which does result in frequent Parry events with the new content, and the critical defense increase seems like a good thing for champs to have (assuming we don't go back to being the recipients of non-critical, high damage hits from morgul blades). I think like you, I use to go pretty far down either red or yellow to get the capstones in those specializations before the recent change. But since losing that fight, I have been trying to think of ways to make blue line better and this is what I have come up with. I'm trying to focus on small changes that would have real impact. If I were to add one more thing, it would be to greatly increase the damage of merciful strike and give it a strong bleed. This would greatly improve the utility of Quick with a Blade and improve its utility in red line as well.

    In terms of my suggestions to roll Block rating into Parry rating for champs, I agree that this might be a little pie in the sky. But I know a lot of champs who have opted to tank with an 1-handed weapon because the stats from the off-hand can be better in some cases than the small chance to block (more vit, tact. mit and/or parry). My chank sword is 2-handed so the solution I proposed would not be of as much personal benefit to me. If wielding a single weapon granted an additional 5% parry chance in Blue, then combining block with parry into a single parry rating would be perfect for me and provide real tangible benefits to dual wielders, making blue line more accessible for all. Yes, there would be some diminished returns due to the curve. But there is the higher chance to partial parry and get a parry response. Plus, as Fear Nothing Cooldown is the only weapon legacy you need, you wouldn't even need a legendary weapon specifically set aside to play blue line. The Fear Nothing CD and a Gem of Vitality and you are good to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Low Priority:
    [LIST=1][*]As for Dire Need, I've made my own recommendations here (skim and look for the table in the post). This change would be very interesting though, and I think I like your suggestion better, so long as we have the tools necessary to keep us up through this extra incoming damage. I would just caution that the incoming damage would have to be mitigated a lot more heavily than on Cappy or Beorning, as we don't have any cooldown skills to use that would greatly mitigate this. Cappy's have Last Stand/Shield of the Dunedain, Beornings have Thickened Hide. And these cooldowns can be used on top of the damage mitigation that is already present by using these classes' damage redirects. We just have Adamant, which even at full potency lasts less time than all of those other cooldowns, and has close to half the damage reduction of them as well. I would also like to see it work like the Cappy's In Harm's Way over Beorning's Sacrifice in that the incoming damage reduction we get while the skill is active should be straight incoming damage reduction, and should not only apply to the damage being redirected. This would give Chanks a second decent cooldown skill to use then.
    I agree with your amendments. During the last pass of class changes, I proposed fixing the heal on dire need but I have come to the conclusion that it just cannot be fixed, and we don't really need an another heal. We have Exalted Combatant and Adamant is decent when running with capped mits. What I really want is something that would help me get things under control when mobs aggro wipe or the fellowship gets overwhelmed. Champ tanking should always feel a little risky in my opinion. I don't want it to be as smooth as my captain. I chank for the challenge, and because chanking is fun. A skill that combines the effects of In Harms Way and Time of Need, is right there in that middle spot of crazy cool and potentially reckless if your healer decides to tap out. Dire Need should be about moving faster for a champ (not losing your power and being able to do nothing), while at the same time addressing the potential blood bath that will occur if your don't get these mobs under control.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    1. I don't really understand the Bracing Attack suggestion, as we already have a pretty decent Incoming Healing buff that is present for the first 10s after using the skill. Are you saying this needs to be increased? Personally, while that may be nice, I think it would serve us better to have a HoT component added to the skill like we used to have. The cooldown reduction would be amazing though. Back before trait trees, I'm pretty sure when in Glory stance (tank stance) Bracing Attack was reduced to a 20s cooldown if I remember correctly.
    Yes. Again here, I've tried to suggest something that would provide some additional benefits while maintaining a degree of uncertainty and risk. First order of business would be to decrease the CD and add the parry event response. From there, I would love for this skill to have a chance to proc some other benefit. A HoT would be nice. I suggested an increase to duration of the incoming healing buff because I felt this might be easy to implement, and in higher tier of content, unless the HoT has the same strength as Fight On, it is unlikely to be strong enough to really help a healer out. But I could certainly live with a HoT, possibly delivering the same amount as the initial heal over the length of the duration of the Inc. Healing buff?
    Last edited by keztryl; Jan 20 2019 at 06:44 PM.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    And this is partially why Chanks need to be reworked. Especially with u23, we are just terrible. With the current stat curves, we aren't even remotely comparable on virtue of being behind others thanks to lacking 10+ essences from not having a shield. On top of that, 2/3 of our traits are useless for tanking, and now we can't even trait Fury of Blades from yellow to help us maintain agro on a tank that has terrible taunts and does less damage than a blue Guard.

    Mordor was bad, but at least it was still possible to be a Chank and not feel like a complete liability to the group. Now, our blue line might as well be deleted. It needs some serious attention from Vastin to be viable.
    I have to disagree here partialy, you have no probblems at all holding agro, bladwall is doing so much damage that its often enough to keep the aggro at you. Also you are doing about 2-4x the damage of an guardian exspecially in aoe situations (in thikil t2 trash pulls i had 50-80k dps with my blue champ).
    Gertes

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I have to disagree here partialy, you have no probblems at all holding agro, bladwall is doing so much damage that its often enough to keep the aggro at you. Also you are doing about 2-4x the damage of an guardian exspecially in aoe situations (in thikil t2 trash pulls i had 50-80k dps with my blue champ).
    Yes, I agree, If you trait blade damamge (5 points), barbed wall (5 points) and improved raging blade (1+3 points), you can keep aggro reasonably.

    Still I would like to ask for a strategic vision of our weknesses, more than think up nice tweaks for our skills.

    We need a lot more survivavility and taunts (or any alternative/equivalent way of aggroing) for new monsters and for emergencies in general. Champion tanking is not fixed by any stretch of imagination just adding some skill which switches to himself the damage from the fellowship. Sorry about that, but the problem is survivavilty. Keeping a Champion alive is much more difficult than any other tanking class. If we add a skill that takes the damage from other players we're going to die for sure, unless we get damage reduced by a huge percentage.

    We need to take less damage, not more. I won't even try to say how. There's a lot of ways of reducing incoming damage, some more imaginative than others, and it's the work of the devs to implement them, but we just take too much damage to be viable --and that's the main issue that we have.

    I'm not even sure that the trait Glory works at all. I mean (annecdote), I have a kinnie with a Captain half geared with purple level 370 armour, a couple of 370 teal and still many level 115 pieces. He takes less damage when tanking than I on my Champion with complete level 370+ teal + tier 12 essences. He's not even wearing a shield, since he hasn't one yet, he's tanking with a 2 hander, the same as a Champion.

    So, first priority: reduce incoming damage. Second priority: give us emergency aggro skills. Lesser priorities: more nice skills that give flavour to the class --we already have many, and we have fun playing tanks, but some more would also be welcome.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I have to disagree here partialy, you have no probblems at all holding agro, bladwall is doing so much damage that its often enough to keep the aggro at you. Also you are doing about 2-4x the damage of an guardian exspecially in aoe situations (in thikil t2 trash pulls i had 50-80k dps with my blue champ).
    The question is, how well can you hold aggro when you have to stack the 250k+ mits just to survive some of the mobs and frequent unavoidable attacks in Anvil? TG t2 is still very forgiving compared to some fights. If you really sacrifice your DPS stats for survivability, you will see what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    Still I would like to ask for a strategic vision of our weaknesses, more than think up nice tweaks for our skills.
    We need a lot more survivavility and taunts (or any alternative/equivalent way of aggroing) for new monsters and for emergencies in general. Champion tanking is not fixed by any stretch of imagination just adding some skill which switches to himself the damage from the fellowship. Sorry about that, but the problem is survivavilty. Keeping a Champion alive is much more difficult than any other tanking class. If we add a skill that takes the damage from other players we're going to die for sure, unless we get damage reduced by a huge percentage. […]
    So, first priority: reduce incoming damage. Second priority: give us emergency aggro skills. Lesser priorities: more nice skills that give flavour to the class --we already have many, and we have fun playing tanks, but some more would also be welcome.
    I think I understand where you are coming from, and agree that survivability is a big problem. It looks like everyone here is in agreement that there is a substantial gap in defensive stats between champs and other tanks, and this is hurting our survivability. This was not the case before u23, followed by the loss of “champions duel” as a potential damage reduction skill for high unavoidable damage boss fights. We also have lost the Featured Instance armour set bonus, and/or the Abyss armour set bonus, both of which were very helpful in in reducing damage. So top of the list for me would also be changes that will improve our survivability, starting with an increase to our base mitigation values so that they are in closer alignment with other tanks.

    During the last pass of class changes, I argued for similar changes to what you are proposing and was summarily shot down by a few other players. Here’s why. Champs are the last class to have something close to the original aggro mechanics that were present in the game at lvl 50 – lvl60 cap. Back then tanks would often have to buildup aggro before the fellowship started to DPS, and a lot of tanks prefer this style, because they find the aggro “threat copy” mechanics that have come to dominate since then too easy/boring. In fairness, captains were given easy aggro mechanic, so that maintaining aggro would require less effort, freeing them up to perform their support duties, such as healing, rezing, removing corruptions, and spamming muster courage. Champs, on the other hand, are use to trying to get as many skills off as quickly as possible, and with the improvements to Riposte are finally able to retain this playstyle in blue.

    So the vision for champ tanking is to use skills like raging blade, riposte and bladewall and rely less on taunts and threat copy skills. One advantage of this approach is that, technically, raging blades can hit more targets than any AoE taunt, and this would hopefully make chanks better for tanking large groups of adds than Bears and Captains. At the same time, chanks should be less survivable than Guardians (and one assumes Wardens), but able to contribute more to DPS. In other words, the goal is for them to be survivable enough, but still tempted to try to do more damage at the expense of survivability. If you want a high survivability class that does less damage and has more aggro skills, play a Guard (or at least, that is the idea). Still champs have that flat -10% melee damage buff, +5% tactical mitigation, and an automatic heal when our morale is dangerously low. If it wasn’t for the current gap in mitigation values, chanks would be surviving just fine. Before u23 Champs could successfully tank Abyss t2c assuming they had their rotation down, and knew when to use their damage reduction skills.

    The change to Dire Need that I have proposed would increase survivability in many situations, but would come with some risks. Basically, “In Harms Way” for Captains can be traited to provide an additional -20% incoming damage, which lasts the duration of the effect. This reduces all damage to the captain by 20% including the redirected damage from the fellowship. So if the fellowship is not taking damage, you get a -20% incoming damage buff. Damage to the fellowship is reduced by half, making this a great skill if your fellowship is in trouble and you are waiting for taunts. But if you get hit with a large fellowship wide attack (e.g., Fingar belly flop) then you would need something like Last Stand to survive the total amount of redirected damage from each member. This is why I think something like this would be great for Champs. It is a damage reduction buff, but one that can backfire if used in certain situations. For moments when you need a little damage reduction while getting mobs under control it would be great. Drakelings in boss 3 of TG would be easier, but reducing shadow damage to the fellowship in boss 2 would not be a good idea. So, instead of Last Stand, I am proposing enhancing Champ's ability to execute skills quickly as well as granting a guaranteed Riposte (useful when you haven't been hit and new adds appear). Ultimately, champ aggro is dependent on their reflect and their damage skills. A heavy bleed on Merciful Strike would be another high threat damage building skill, but one balanced by fervour, so not too OP.

    In terms of flat out survivability buffs, I like the abyss raid set, and wish the duration of aggressive exchange was a bit longer than it is. But I can live without it. If the issues with Unbreakable were fixed (as ColMcStacky suggested), then this skill would provide a nice increase to Tact. Mit. while also granting a temporary boon of +20% morale (with a little coordination from a healer), providing effectively another survival skill when needed.
    Last edited by keztryl; Jan 22 2019 at 10:03 AM.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    I agree. The only trait I really like is Fight Through The Pain, which does result in frequent Parry events with the new content, and the critical defense increase seems like a good thing for champs to have (assuming we don't go back to being the recipients of non-critical, high damage hits from morgul blades).
    Yeah, Fight Through the Pain is definitely a nice trait, but I just wish it wasn't gated behind the Critical Defence trait. No other tank has anything gated behind their Critical Defence trait, so why should we, when neither trait has anything to do with the other? It means you have to throw 10 points at it instead of 5, which really hurts a hybrid build since yellow has so many useful traits even for tanking. The Critical Defence trait is very situational if you ask me. It seems that only in Anvil are crits really something you have to worry about. the 3/6mans don't have a lot of crits from what I can see.

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    If I were to add one more thing, it would be to greatly increase the damage of merciful strike and give it a strong bleed. This would greatly improve the utility of Quick with a Blade and improve its utility in red line as well.
    This is interesting, and I'd be ok with it. I think it would be more helpful, though, if this trait was repurposed to change our baseline for crit/mastery. If Quick with a Blade set our Critical Rating to 15% base and mastery to 150% base, that would fix a few issues for Chanks in my opinion. We would have sufficient DPS then to actually carve out a niche for us among the tanks as the tank with the most damage, threat in a raid environment won't be so unstable anymore, and we can freely invest our essences/gear towards survivability then to catch up to what other tanks are capable of. This type of thing is definitely possible, because it does exist in-game. Gothmog in Throne sets the tank's morale/mits to 200k/15%, respectively, so why not just have a trait that does this for our crit/mastery?

    A small caveat to this suggestion, It would be nice if having higher than 15% Critical Rating and 150% Physical Mastery allowed us to override this buff and keep our original value to one while gaining the other still. Also, our threat multiplier on skills in blue line will probably have to be slightly reduced (from x3 to x2 most likely) to still make threat generation interesting for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    In terms of my suggestions to roll Block rating into Parry rating for champs, I agree that this might be a little pie in the sky. But I know a lot of champs who have opted to tank with an 1-handed weapon because the stats from the off-hand can be better in some cases than the small chance to block (more vit, tact. mit and/or parry). My chank sword is 2-handed so the solution I proposed would not be of as much personal benefit to me. If wielding a single weapon granted an additional 5% parry chance in Blue, then combining block with parry into a single parry rating would be perfect for me and provide real tangible benefits to dual wielders, making blue line more accessible for all. Yes, there would be some diminished returns due to the curve. But there is the higher chance to partial parry and get a parry response. Plus, as Fear Nothing Cooldown is the only weapon legacy you need, you wouldn't even need a legendary weapon specifically set aside to play blue line. The Fear Nothing CD and a Gem of Vitality and you are good to go.
    Honestly, even in Abyss there were situations where I would use my yellow dual-wield weapons when tanking instead of my 2hander for the extra stats (mostly the vitality). I did this on Sagrog and Fingar, since for those two fights BPE doesn't matter. Sagrog sets your BPE to 0% when tanking him, and Fingar is all scripted attacks, so you don't need BPE for that fight. I do agree though that having a way to enable us to dual-wield without losing avoidances would be amazing, but may be a pipe dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    I agree with your amendments. During the last pass of class changes, I proposed fixing the heal on dire need but I have come to the conclusion that it just cannot be fixed, and we don't really need an another heal. We have Exalted Combatant and Adamant is decent when running with capped mits. What I really want is something that would help me get things under control when mobs aggro wipe or the fellowship gets overwhelmed. Champ tanking should always feel a little risky in my opinion. I don't want it to be as smooth as my captain. I chank for the challenge, and because chanking is fun. A skill that combines the effects of In Harms Way and Time of Need, is right there in that middle spot of crazy cool and potentially reckless if your healer decides to tap out. Dire Need should be about moving faster for a champ (not losing your power and being able to do nothing), while at the same time addressing the potential blood bath that will occur if your don't get these mobs under control.
    Yeah, I get where you are coming from with your Dire Need suggestion. Don't get me wrong, I do like it a lot thematically, but it wouldn't exactly be very viable until our base issues with survivability are dealt with. We can still become a stable tank without needing to be lazy like Captains, and having a "do not die for 17s" button.

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    Yes. Again here, I've tried to suggest something that would provide some additional benefits while maintaining a degree of uncertainty and risk. First order of business would be to decrease the CD and add the parry event response. From there, I would love for this skill to have a chance to proc some other benefit. A HoT would be nice. I suggested an increase to duration of the incoming healing buff because I felt this might be easy to implement, and in higher tier of content, unless the HoT has the same strength as Fight On, it is unlikely to be strong enough to really help a healer out. But I could certainly live with a HoT, possibly delivering the same amount as the initial heal over the length of the duration of the Inc. Healing buff?
    Having Bracing Attack grant a Parry Response... hmm...
    That gets my mind rolling a bit, just spitballing here, but what if it grants multiple Parry Responses, making it a bit more useful than just giving one Ripose? Something like every 3s for 9s you gain a Parry Response after using Bracing Attack? Really weird idea, but it'd definitely help us a lot on fights where we can't BPE for whatever reason.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I have to disagree here partialy, you have no probblems at all holding agro, bladwall is doing so much damage that its often enough to keep the aggro at you. Also you are doing about 2-4x the damage of an guardian exspecially in aoe situations (in thikil t2 trash pulls i had 50-80k dps with my blue champ).
    That may be so, but I doubt this is the case in a full tank build where you have 5% Critical Rating and 80k Mastery. In hybrid builds it makes sense to have a lot of DPS while Chanking, but what we need is to still have respectable numbers in real situations where a hybrid build isn't viable. Until that happens, Chanks won't have a benefit over any other tank, and will have a slew of detriments that it brings to the table.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    During the last pass of class changes, I argued for similar changes to what you are proposing and was summarily shot down by a few other players. Here’s why. Champs are the last class to have something close to the original aggro mechanics that were present in the game at lvl 50 – lvl60 cap. Back then tanks would often have to buildup aggro before the fellowship started to DPS, and a lot of tanks prefer this style, because they find the aggro “threat copy” mechanics that have come to dominate since then too easy/boring.
    I just want to reiterate this point. I was most assuredly one of those people who shot down ideas to give Chanks more taunts/reduce cooldowns. We should not need them, as they don't fit thematically with the class. Aside from this, I don't personally want them for the reasons stated here. If they removed this little bit of flavor from Chanks, I would have no interested in tanking on my Chump anymore, and I'm sure the majority of us who still do so (for some inexplicable reason) would feel the same way.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl
    Long, deatailed and persuasive explanation.
    You certainly defend your position well, and I won't even try to contradict you. But at the end of the day, what remains (at least in my view) is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl
    I think I understand where you are coming from, and agree that survivability is a big problem. It looks like everyone here is in agreement that there is a substantial gap in defensive stats between champs and other tanks, and this is hurting our survivability.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    I just want to reiterate this point. I was most assuredly one of those people who shot down ideas to give Chanks more taunts/reduce cooldowns. We should not need them, as they don't fit thematically with the class. Aside from this, I don't personally want them for the reasons stated here. If they removed this little bit of flavor from Chanks, I would have no interested in tanking on my Chump anymore, and I'm sure the majority of us who still do so (for some inexplicable reason) would feel the same way.
    Even so, I would ask the same again: more suvivavility and, if possible, more emergency aggro control.

    I think there's a reason that there are few Champion tanks: everybody knows that Champions can't perform well as tanks. If Champions performed better, there would be more Champions tanking, so the numbers here actually work against the current situation.

    What is more, if some players --legitimally of course-- claim that they want a different and more classic style of tanking, the obvious solution is to support this line in the main tanks, who already have the new and (apparently) less liked (but quite effective) skills for tanking, so they can have both (I'm thinking here Guardians, and even Wardens).

    But the truth is that I'm not asking for some overpowered situation for Champion tanks. I think some kind of metaphor could be easily understood. There is a gap 40 m wide separating two cliffs. To perform well, a tank needs to jump over the gap. Main tanks (and assimilate classes) are given skills which allow to jump 100 m, so they can do the required jump with very little effort. Champions are given skills to jump 30 m, so they are close. Maybe if Champions try with favourable wind --or maybe if they climb a rock-- they will find a more favourable angle for the jump and they'll manage --but it won't be easy. I'm just asking that Champions are given skills to jump 50 m instead of 30 m.

    There would still be a higher challenge in a Champion tanking, since we are never going to be given all the skills and perks that other classes have. I think no one is asking for that, actually.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Yeah, Fight Through the Pain is definitely a nice trait, but I just wish it wasn't gated behind the Critical Defence trait. No other tank has anything gated behind their Critical Defence trait, so why should we, when neither trait has anything to do with the other? It means you have to throw 10 points at it instead of 5, which really hurts a hybrid build since yellow has so many useful traits even for tanking. The Critical Defence trait is very situational if you ask me. It seems that only in Anvil are crits really something you have to worry about. the 3/6mans don't have a lot of crits from what I can see.
    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    This is interesting, and I'd be ok with it. I think it would be more helpful, though, if this trait was repurposed to change our baseline for crit/mastery. If Quick with a Blade set our Critical Rating to 15% base and mastery to 150% base, that would fix a few issues for Chanks in my opinion. We would have sufficient DPS then to actually carve out a niche for us among the tanks as the tank with the most damage, threat in a raid environment won't be so unstable anymore, and we can freely invest our essences/gear towards survivability then to catch up to what other tanks are capable of. This type of thing is definitely possible, because it does exist in-game. Gothmog in Throne sets the tank's morale/mits to 200k/15%, respectively, so why not just have a trait that does this for our crit/mastery? A small caveat to this suggestion, It would be nice if having higher than 15% Critical Rating and 150% Physical Mastery allowed us to override this buff and keep our original value to one while gaining the other still. Also, our threat multiplier on skills in blue line will probably have to be slightly reduced (from x3 to x2 most likely) to still make threat generation interesting for us.
    Yeah, I could see that working. I think I was trying to approach the same problem with the change to Dire Need. I still kind of want to go back to the old days of being able to switch stances where trading DPS for defense stats and vice versa was more dynamic... this is why I suggested Dire Need provide Offensive buffs like "Time of Need," sort of providing a blue line equivalent to controlled burn. But everything you are saying here makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    I do agree though that having a way to enable us to dual-wield without losing avoidances would be amazing, but may be a pipe dream.
    Yeah, I'm trying to focus on very simple concrete solutions to what I see are the problems. We could ask that, just as bears have the ability to block in blue line now, so should we. Some of my suggestions are still a little fanciful, but I offer a few ideals in the hopes that someone else might come up with a simpler solution that still gets the job done. I don't think there is any point in players saying things like "blue line is broken" or "the whole trait tree needs to be reworked." We need to start to clearly describe the biggest problems, as well as offer what we see as potential cost-efficient solutions. We're not going to necessarily get any of the things we want, but I would take any improvements that move us in the right direction over nothing at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Having Bracing Attack grant a Parry Response... hmm...
    That gets my mind rolling a bit, just spitballing here, but what if it grants multiple Parry Responses, making it a bit more useful than just giving one Ripose? Something like every 3s for 9s you gain a Parry Response after using Bracing Attack? Really weird idea, but it'd definitely help us a lot on fights where we can't BPE for whatever reason.
    Yeah, it needs something right? Its like 1/2 of a yellow banner with a short duration, which is fine, but I really wish it did something more than provide +2 fervor. But sticking with my earlier suggestions, Quick With a Blade could also be changed such that Merciful Strike also provides a guaranteed Parry event.

    Whatever happens, I hope we get a second iteration of class change to Blue. The improvements made so far are cool (riposte, bubble). I just feel like a few more tweaks and this line would be in much better shape. A bit more serious work is needed to fix Unbreakable and Dire Need, but there is still a lot of "low hanging fruit" which would go a long way. The problems with the mitigation (like the +3 DoTs problem for Wardens) are the most important and was missed because we were testing with the old raid set gear. But to me these are still minor bumps on the road, in what has otherwise been a pretty solid trajectory towards something better.

 

 
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