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  1. #1

    Exclamation Champion in blue line: changes needed (2)

    This topic is dedicated to admins. I duplicate this topic in that theme. I've been playing champion class for a long time, and i want to play blue line (tank) as well. But when i started trying at this update, i realized that need some changes at that line, because without it champion cant be fully good tank.
    1) Aggro problems.
    Champion has 2 skills that increases threat and make forced attack, and NO any other aggro skills: 1 solo-target aggro skill ("Champions challenge": cooldown is 30 seconds), and 1 AOE aggro skill ("True heroics": cooldown is 2 minutes!!!!!). There is no way to reduce their cooldown (no legacies, talents). So, how it works? Champion can tank pack of monsters only once per 2 minutes, and there is no right on mistake, because if the party has strong AOE dps, he will reaggro all monsters, and champion dont have any skills to aggro a pack except of True heroics. Champions AOE skills in blue line just do a small damage, and cant reaggro them back.
    My offer is to:
    - Lower cooldown of "True heroics" in blue line (make at least 1 minute cooldown)
    - Add to at least one AOE skill increasing threat effect ("Horn of champions" or "Riposte")
    2) Block/parry/evade and mitigations
    Champion has only 1 way to increase parry: talent "Fight through the pain" upon being critically hit: +10% parry increase.
    There are no skills, unlike other tanks, to increase block, parry or evade, so champions are kind of "punching bags". The same way, they cant wear shields, so they need to put in gear many mitigation essences (physical or tactical), so there is no space to put many block/parry/evade essenses. Tactical mitigation is the separate topic for the heavy armor classes. Heavy armor have the lowest rates of tactical mitigation among the light and medium armors. So if you want to tank monsters who deal tactical damage, with heavy armor, and WITHOUT shield, you need to place 10+ tactical mitigation essenses in your gear, so you physically can't place block/parry/evade essences because critical defence same needed.
    My offer is to:
    - Add to some skills block/parry or evade buffs in blue line that can be maintained during the battle (Look at wardens, they have cap of all mitigations and cap of block/parry/evades during the battles, because they wear medium armor (higher tactical mitigation than heavy), and many skills to buffs themselves)
    3) Useless skill "Dire need"
    The skill "Dire need" talent with an additional talent "Improved dire need". They both in total costs 6 trait points. Maximum healing with that skill is 25-30k to morale with a long cooldown, same as athelas essence. 25-30k is one monster hit (monster, not even boss), so what is usage of that skill that costs 6 trait points??
    My offer is to:
    - increase morale heal (on 100% morale), because otherwise there is no point to put trait points on it.
    4) Skill "Sudden defence" and passive trait to it "good defence/strong offence"
    "Sudden defence" has a maximum of about 43k morale bubble even with a legacy on rune. This value is too low. Bubble ends in 1-2 monsters hits, so it makes passive trait "good defence/strong offence" to become useless, because it works only while you have active bubble on you.
    My offer is to:
    - higher bubble value of skill "sudden defence" or to change this passive trait "good defence/strong offence" on something more useful at tank build.
    5) The final passive trait in blue line "Invincible"
    How is that trait works? For each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased while "Adamant" is active. Seriously? Skill "Adamant" is active for 15 seconds with legacy on rune. Without legacy, it lasts 10 seconds. With a 1 minute cooldown. I think that this passive "Invincible" is fully useless.
    My offer is to:
    - rework the last passive trait in blue line. May be it should work like that - for each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased (without any "adamants" or other skills). Or to make something new and useful at tank build.

    Dear admins. I said a lot at this topic, but i really want you to improve champions tanking opportunity, and may be any other useful changes. And as an experienced player for that class i made some offers to you to think about. You make many changes to other classes. Champions dont have the highest damage among the other classes. And they are melee, so in dungeons need to be careful, because melee are always at the epicenter of battles. So dont forget about brave class Champion. Dont let it die
    Last edited by xxAntimagexx; Dec 03 2018 at 11:02 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    16
    Signed. Champion blue line needs serious rework.
    Telliol, Champion of Laurelin.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    919
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkryft View Post
    Signed. Champion blue line needs serious rework.
    Why?
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

  4. #4
    Yep, agro problems are just ridiculous. I may not be the best champion tank but at the beginning of the patch when everyone's gear was trash I was doing just fine in terms of agro but now, the only reliable way to keep agro is through force taunts.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    919
    Quote Originally Posted by fewd View Post
    Yep, agro problems are just ridiculous. I may not be the best champion tank but at the beginning of the patch when everyone's gear was trash I was doing just fine in terms of agro but now, the only reliable way to keep agro is through force taunts.
    The Chank I play with regularly has 0 issues, even when against other champs in AOE.
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    The Chank I play with regularly has 0 issues, even when against other champs in AOE.
    Blue champion has great AoE capabilites with sweeping riposte being able to cut animations regularly and consistently, champions are probably the easiest dps class to tank for as a blue champ. The real problem is experienced glass canon hunters and rune-keepers, which my kinnies thoroughly enjoy playing. Now, you can force taunt something for 10 seconds and get agro permanently, in that situation you have to try to lose agro. The problem arrives when you can't chain your force taunts, or force taunt at all for that matter, and you have to rely on your measly dps to generate agro while being chain cc'ed, which seems to be a recurring theme with the new instances. I had no agro problems at 115 cap but this new cluster is incredibly frustrating for champion tanks.

  7. #7
    Zipifile: You don't seem to play a champ yourself, else you would see the difference between Chank and Guard.

    Chanks lack:
    - Self heal. Fight On? 30% heal over 20 seconds...to slow. Bracing Attack? Didn't scale, heals 5k? Pitiful. Dire Need? Scales from Maximum Power. Pitiful too, and probably the worst skill in the category power cost vs. healing effect (~20k heal for ~2,500 power).
    - Effect removal. We can remove one wound/poison/... each 45 seconds. 15 seconds with weapon legacy. Guards? Remove four effects each 5 seconds when traited. I'm a bit envious here.
    - Panic buttons. Chanks have none that deserve the name. Dire need imho should be a (weaker) equivalent to Warrior's Heart, but does meaningless heal. Sudden Defence bubble was strengthened not long ago, but breaks after two hits. Unbreakable? Only raises max morale, and gives a rating value to tactical mitigations that wasn't scaled to Mordor levels. Adamant? A bit of damage reduction, but won't help very long.

    What else is wrong?
    - Two of our passive traits (Unstable & Fight through the Pain) rely on being critically hit. This isn't the best mechanic to begin with, since every partial/full BPE or resist negates an incoming crit. Meaning the higher we raise BPE and resistance, the more we nerf our own traits. This is stupid. When Turbine changed BPE so we get much more partials, a side effect what that these two traits are even less triggered.
    - A lot of passives increase damage. I would rather see them increasing defenses. Blue line is our tanking line.
    - We had a nice Incoming Healing main legacy on our rune. But it is rating based. Rating wasn't scaled with Mordor, it gives what? Like 2% incoming healing when you stuff 22 crystals into your rune. Quite useless now...
    - We have a passive trait that reflects damage. Which is fun most of the time, but disruptive when we aren't allowed to damage certain enemies, or a boss reflects. (Boss hits us, we reflect, he reflects back. Thanks Obama.) Could be fixed by making the reflect trait a toggle.

    I think Blue line needs a redesign. You can add some band aids (e.g. making Dire Need a percent based heal), but a lot of things simply need to be reworked.

  8. The issue is not that one cannot tank effectively. The issue is that almost everyone who builds for tanking does so by going mildly blue, heavy yellow. The blue line traits are either poorly designed or haven't scaled well.

    Ideally, all three trait lines will be interesting and viable. A situation where the optimal build for a champion tank ignores 60% of the blue line traits is simply not great design.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    Zipifile: You don't seem to play a champ yourself, else you would see the difference between Chank and Guard.

    Chanks lack:
    - Self heal. Fight On? 30% heal over 20 seconds...to slow. Bracing Attack? Didn't scale, heals 5k? Pitiful. Dire Need? Scales from Maximum Power. Pitiful too, and probably the worst skill in the category power cost vs. healing effect (~20k heal for ~2,500 power).
    - Effect removal. We can remove one wound/poison/... each 45 seconds. 15 seconds with weapon legacy. Guards? Remove four effects each 5 seconds when traited. I'm a bit envious here.
    - Panic buttons. Chanks have none that deserve the name. Dire need imho should be a (weaker) equivalent to Warrior's Heart, but does meaningless heal. Sudden Defence bubble was strengthened not long ago, but breaks after two hits. Unbreakable? Only raises max morale, and gives a rating value to tactical mitigations that wasn't scaled to Mordor levels. Adamant? A bit of damage reduction, but won't help very long.

    What else is wrong?
    - Two of our passive traits (Unstable & Fight through the Pain) rely on being critically hit. This isn't the best mechanic to begin with, since every partial/full BPE or resist negates an incoming crit. Meaning the higher we raise BPE and resistance, the more we nerf our own traits. This is stupid. When Turbine changed BPE so we get much more partials, a side effect what that these two traits are even less triggered.
    - A lot of passives increase damage. I would rather see them increasing defenses. Blue line is our tanking line.
    - We had a nice Incoming Healing main legacy on our rune. But it is rating based. Rating wasn't scaled with Mordor, it gives what? Like 2% incoming healing when you stuff 22 crystals into your rune. Quite useless now...
    - We have a passive trait that reflects damage. Which is fun most of the time, but disruptive when we aren't allowed to damage certain enemies, or a boss reflects. (Boss hits us, we reflect, he reflects back. Thanks Obama.) Could be fixed by making the reflect trait a toggle.

    I think Blue line needs a redesign. You can add some band aids (e.g. making Dire Need a percent based heal), but a lot of things simply need to be reworked.
    Going back and reading through the dev diaries when the trait lines were introduced, blue line tanks were intended to be off-tanks that could still do good DPS. That's why some blue line skills operate to increase damage. The idea was that blue line chanks could start soaking up damage and survive through self-heals/bubbles and killing enemies. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that was actually ever the case. By the time I got to endgame when level cap was 100, there were very few chanks. Pretty much everyone was yellow line or red line DPS.

    Either the devs needed to significantly increase blue line DPS or rework the trait line to improve heals and buffs to make it a more viable tank.

    I have some blue-line LIs and I can do some T1 3 and 6 player content as a chank, so long as everyone else knows what they are doing. But these days, most T1 content is pretty easy and doesn't usually need a full, balanced group.

  10. #10
    /signed. Chanks are even worse off in u23 than they were in Mordor (which is really saying something). I just want to give my $0.02 on the matter as someone who prefers playing my Champ in blue over red/yellow (even if trait trees butchered it).

    If you ask me, the first change that should be accomplished is that Chanks need a DPS increase. Nowadays even blue Guards can out-DPS a Chank. That is just sad if you ask me. I don't know what yellow DPS is exactly, but if a yellow champ can pull 100k DPS against 5 targets, I think a Chank should be able to do ~30-40k. The damage is the main draw of having a Chank, and yet it is massively underpowered in that respect. Chanks should be the go-to speedrunning tank in my opinion. It fits the whole "high cost/high reward" mentality of trying to shave off every second you can. If Chanks were able to get respectable DPS in a tank line, then even if they weren't the most defensive tanks, they would still have a place to shine that is their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    This topic is dedicated to admins. I duplicate this topic in that theme. I've been playing champion class for a long time, and i want to play blue line (tank) as well. But when i started trying at this update, i realized that need some changes at that line, because without it champion cant be fully good tank.
    1) Aggro problems.
    Champion has 2 skills that increases threat and make forced attack, and NO any other aggro skills: 1 solo-target aggro skill ("Champions challenge": cooldown is 30 seconds), and 1 AOE aggro skill ("True heroics": cooldown is 2 minutes!!!!!). There is no way to reduce their cooldown (no legacies, talents). So, how it works? Champion can tank pack of monsters only once per 2 minutes, and there is no right on mistake, because if the party has strong AOE dps, he will reaggro all monsters, and champion dont have any skills to aggro a pack except of True heroics. Champions AOE skills in blue line just do a small damage, and cant reaggro them back.
    My offer is to:
    - Lower cooldown of "True heroics" in blue line (make at least 1 minute cooldown)
    - Add to at least one AOE skill increasing threat effect ("Horn of champions" or "Riposte")
    This honestly is not as much a problem as you would think. The AoE that a Chank is capable of helps solidify initial agro enough, and you can use Champion's Challenge to hold whatever target the DPS is attacking, just wait until you lose it before you taunt. You forget that Chanks have a passive threat reflect when they get hit, which helps hold AoE agro off the DPS. If you have to rely on True Heroics to actually maintain agro on trash, you may want to rethink your gearing or traiting. If you trait down yellow line to grab Fury of Blades, the mitigation bypass proc on blade skills, and Great Cleave, you will have more than enough DPS to hold AoE threat. The only issue then would be whatever single target the Hunt*rds are focusing. I would like it if Horn of Champions became something akin to a Guardian's Warchant though, so we would be able to get solid AoE agro on ranged targets. At the moment, we have to be in melee range of something to actually agro it, which is pretty annoying in some situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    2) Block/parry/evade and mitigations
    Champion has only 1 way to increase parry: talent "Fight through the pain" upon being critically hit: +10% parry increase.
    There are no skills, unlike other tanks, to increase block, parry or evade, so champions are kind of "punching bags". The same way, they cant wear shields, so they need to put in gear many mitigation essences (physical or tactical), so there is no space to put many block/parry/evade essenses. Tactical mitigation is the separate topic for the heavy armor classes. Heavy armor have the lowest rates of tactical mitigation among the light and medium armors. So if you want to tank monsters who deal tactical damage, with heavy armor, and WITHOUT shield, you need to place 10+ tactical mitigation essenses in your gear, so you physically can't place block/parry/evade essences because critical defence same needed.
    My offer is to:
    - Add to some skills block/parry or evade buffs in blue line that can be maintained during the battle (Look at wardens, they have cap of all mitigations and cap of block/parry/evades during the battles, because they wear medium armor (higher tactical mitigation than heavy), and many skills to buffs themselves)
    Agreed, having these buffs (Fight Through the Pain and Unstable) being gated behind taking a critical hit is just a bad idea, especially considering nowadays a lot of enemies can't actually crit anymore. In my opinion, these should become active on defeat responses (and defeat responses should be granted by some mechanic other than actual kills as well, maybe having the Sudden Defence bubble pop?).

    The lack of a shield is something that hurts Champs, true. We can block with a 2hander, but we miss out on ~40k armour rating, which translates to ~5 essences of phys mit and ~1 essence of tact mit. This update though, tanking stats are a joke. The rating curves are just ridiculous on every single tanking stat. Personally, I dont think we need block/evade buffs in blue line. If there's any stat that gets buffed it should be Incoming Healing, as until fairly recently Chanks have always had very high incoming healing while tanking due to Bracing Attack and our class item.

    To mitigate the loss of armour we have compared to other tanks, they should bring back the old skill we had before trait trees called Improved Hedge. It gave us roughly the armour rating of a heavy shield, removed disarms, added wound resist, prevented disarms for the duration, and added a lump of crit defence rating. This is the solution we need to not fall behind other tanks mitigation-wise, but still have the 2hander for the increased damage needed to hold agro.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    3) Useless skill "Dire need"
    The skill "Dire need" talent with an additional talent "Improved dire need". They both in total costs 6 trait points. Maximum healing with that skill is 25-30k to morale with a long cooldown, same as athelas essence. 25-30k is one monster hit (monster, not even boss), so what is usage of that skill that costs 6 trait points??
    My offer is to:
    - increase morale heal (on 100% morale), because otherwise there is no point to put trait points on it.
    Dire need should be reworked to drain 40% of your current power, and restore that percentage to max morale. Rather than a wordy explanation, here's a table to explain it:
    Current Power Power Consumed Heal Provided
    100% 40% 40%
    80% 32% 32%
    50% 20% 20%
    30% 12% 12%
    This way, the skill would scale properly regardless of how the ratio between morale and power change in the future. A 40% heal on a 1 minutes cooldown really isn't even a lot when compared to other tanking classes, so I don't think it's asking for too much. It's about what the skill used to be when it was scaled properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    4) Skill "Sudden defence" and passive trait to it "good defence/strong offence"
    "Sudden defence" has a maximum of about 43k morale bubble even with a legacy on rune. This value is too low. Bubble ends in 1-2 monsters hits, so it makes passive trait "good defence/strong offence" to become useless, because it works only while you have active bubble on you.
    My offer is to:
    - higher bubble value of skill "sudden defence" or to change this passive trait "good defence/strong offence" on something more useful at tank build.
    As I said above, I would rather see a defeat response when the bubble is popped rather than what we currently have. It would integrate very well with Fight Through the Pain and Unstable if they were changed to proc on defeat responses. I'd rather not see the bubble get too ridiculously strong personally. 40k is a good amount if you ask me; if we increase it any more compared to our morale pool, it will end up being a crutch for the entire trait line. Other skills should be buffed instead in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by xxAntimagexx View Post
    5) The final passive trait in blue line "Invincible"
    How is that trait works? For each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased while "Adamant" is active. Seriously? Skill "Adamant" is active for 15 seconds with legacy on rune. Without legacy, it lasts 10 seconds. With a 1 minute cooldown. I think that this passive "Invincible" is fully useless.
    My offer is to:
    - rework the last passive trait in blue line. May be it should work like that - for each 5% of health the champion is missing, his damage is increased (without any "adamants" or other skills). Or to make something new and useful at tank build.
    This is just an artifact of the legendary trait back in the day. Back then it was pretty useful because things were actually scaled well and balanced properly. Nowadays, it's useless though since we can get hit for 50% of our morale and healed back to full instantly by a healer. It'd be nice if the duration was increased or the cooldown was decreased. I would love for it to be 20s duration on a 40s cooldown personally.

    Also, I believe that Adamant/invincible should be changed to give its benefit compared to what you have when you initially use the skill rather than have it update continuously during the duration. For example, say you are at 50% morale and 5 fervour when you use it, you keep the benefits provided even when you get healed and exhaust the fervour. This would make it much better, as you won't have to stop using skills or tell a healer to stop healing you to get a DPS buff.


    Dear admins. I said a lot at this topic, but i really want you to improve champions tanking opportunity, and may be any other useful changes. And as an experienced player for that class i made some offers to you to think about. You make many changes to other classes. Champions dont have the highest damage among the other classes. And they are melee, so in dungeons need to be careful, because melee are always at the epicenter of battles. So dont forget about brave class Champion. Dont let it die [/QUOTE]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by seyahat View Post
    The issue is not that one cannot tank effectively. The issue is that almost everyone who builds for tanking does so by going mildly blue, heavy yellow. The blue line traits are either poorly designed or haven't scaled well.

    Ideally, all three trait lines will be interesting and viable. A situation where the optimal build for a champion tank ignores 60% of the blue line traits is simply not great design.
    This is true. I don't even trait past Sweeping Riposte anymore in my main blue-line. The procs on receiving crits are too unreliable in situations where they would be beneficial, Dire Need is trash nowadays, and Unbreakable is a joke. There's no reason to trait past tier 4 of blue line when you can pick up things from yellow like Great Cleave, the finesse bonus, Blade Wall damage increase, Blade skill mitigation bypass, Blades of Courage, and Fury of Blades. If only Exchange of Blows was an actual trait instead of in the sidebar... That would solve many issues for both blue and red Champs...



    Also, posting this just to remind people that it really used to be a thing. I feel like I'm the only one who remembers it. Although I do vaguely remember there being a way to bring it down to ~15s cooldown, which would definitely be necessary if it was re-implemented today.

 

 

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