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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    I'd really like to encourage more feedback from players on the updates that are on BR and general feedback for the Burg class in current form ( for the Devs to utilise )

    The threads half full with negative remarks towards 1 another, you have a view different from another fine just add your own feedback on what your experiences are playing a Burglar.
    The usual you know. Everyone assumes that everything some one else could say goes right into dev ears.

    But interestingly we also have people that do not like Burglar player characters and post here, in fact asking for a nerf.
    -That above is unique situation to the Burglar class discussion? Maybe I need to go on every class forum and start telling them they they have it too easy. Oh can compare them to a burglar. Bring everyone to our level!
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Most classes have 1 traitline thats redundant , in burg case blue although there's some nice traits that enhance dps role.

    Don't see burg needing Red dps boost, Burg is the easiest class to solo on, quest and a royal pain in the pvmp side.

    Devs should focus on the what the burg was always intended and excels at before trait tree, supporting cc and debuffer, make the yellow line better
    I have read your posts for a while. You are thoughtfull. However we have these following, obvious problem with whole class, not just the trait line that you like or do not like.

    Moment of truth (for me, feel free to disagree and post your own ideas)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blato View Post
    Tbh I think the main reason very few people play this class is the fact that a lot of instances are very punishing for melee dps. That coupled with the fact that burgs are the squishiest melee dps class - making them only really viable for Cc and debuffs (much of which LMs can provide instead) - puts them in a really awkward position.
    On my server it feels like burglars don't exist anymore.

    The buffs should help with that a little bit.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfThar View Post
    Hey,
    I couldn't test any changes during this beta round, but from what I read in the patch notes the changes seem to go in the right direction! I hope there's much more to come!

    However, there are some really important bugfixes I'd like to focus on. Most of these exist since the Helms Deep expansion in 2013...

    1) Debuffing Gamble's -X% damage debuff doesn't take into account "mob tier" (signature, elite, elite master, ...) damage multipliers and as result debuffs bosses' damage in raids for like 6% instead of the described 40% (T6). Note that this is not a mastery or t2/t3 buff issue - it's an inherent multiplier mobs get depending on their type.
    Loremaster debuffs and Yellow Line's Trick: Disable work correctly in that regard.
    Issue was also discussed in this thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Chance-Debuff
    For deeper insight including Dev response: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...84#post4585584 (Thread from 2010 where that issue affected all debuffs - apparently all were fixed but the Debuffing Gamble)
    That bug renders blue line essentially useless apart from being a Mez-Bot.

    2) Provoke Crit chance debuff does absolutely nothing. And there's even a legacy to enhance this, which as a result does nothing also.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Chance-Debuff
    I'm not sure whether the Trick: Counter Defence from yellow line is affected, too, as I couldn't be bothered to test it. But I think it is.

    3) Flashing Blades' second attack isn't affected by positional damage bonuses (traits/LIs) and critical multipliers when devastating. You tried fixing the weird damage numbers for second attacks of DES and FB a while ago, only FB's second attack is what keeps this from finally being settled.


    These bugs are around since like forever and have been brought up several times over the years. I think skills pretending to do things they don't do is a rather big issue. Are you aware of that? Is there any intention to fix them? A Dev response would be nice.

    Fixing bugs as in things that do not function would benefit Burglar class as well.

    Good example, 2nd hit of Flashing Blades was posted about extensively with screenshots and numbers, it does not seem to work as intended.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdede View Post
    What you want to see? How the groupe wipes in Thikil-Gundu, because the Burglar cant debuff like a Loremaster?
    Or maybe taking +20% of the time because the Burglars damage doesnt compare to others?
    This is not whole truth. But it is the truth.

    The truth can also be: We do not want Burg on this raid at all. Sit on the sidelines or roll another character for that rest of the game.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Most classes have 1 traitline thats redundant , in burg case blue although there's some nice traits that enhance dps role.

    Don't see burg needing Red dps boost, Burg is the easiest class to solo on, quest and a royal pain in the pvmp side.

    Devs should focus on the what the burg was always intended and excels at before trait tree, supporting cc and debuffer, make the yellow line better
    As I said and everyone likely have read by now, it is clear that some people do not like Burglars. You are not in that situation clearly.

    So, only attention that needs to be coming our way has to go into Yellow trait line because you personally like it. -Look I get it, it is great, I am almost happy here for you. I have also met people that play Blue trait line only. I have played blue for that early boost to evade from bob and weave but as soon as I could went very deep in Red Line.

    What does it mean? One line / One play style is more "true" to the imaginary role of what Burglar *should be*?
    -This is just unrealistic, really.

    We need class wide boost to our basic abilities to deal damage and survive.

    It would be best if bug fixes came through and redundant abilities like starting FM, or items that no one uses like marbles, caltrops or hatchets be made into something.

    Make Subtle Stab CD 1 sec.
    Closely look at dame we deal overall, it is normal to be outdamaged by everyone in the game as it stands now.

    Increase partial survivability. I do not say make us into a well rounded tanks. But go ahead work evade and healing from evade scale up to the higher end game.

    Please allow us to use HIPS more often and without cancel effect on an encounter if solo. The encounter reset in this instance could take some time, say 10 sec?

    Do not decrease distance from which we can cast our debuffs, and on the contrary please increase it. Reason is it is impossible to be not tank / target (attracting aggro) and all the time be on the melee range spot with your target, especially if all you want to do is to remove corruptions and target is moving.
    Last edited by Areyekuwe; Dec 02 2018 at 08:47 PM.
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  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    But interestingly we also have people that do not like Burglar player characters and post here, in fact asking for a nerf.
    -That above is unique situation to the Burglar class discussion? Maybe I need to go on every class forum and start telling them they they have it too easy. Oh can compare them to a burglar. Bring everyone to our level!
    Thats far from burglar-unique.
    People asked for nerfs whereever they were necessary throughout many years.
    Thats why blue hunters barrage spam was nerfed to the ground.
    Thats why minstrels bolster our courage was nerfed.
    Thats why Wardens DC mits were nerfed.
    And there are many more examples.

    Closely look at dame we deal overall, it is normal to be outdamaged by everyone in the game as it stands now.
    If you fight a boss, where you have positional throughout the whole fight (I agree thats hard in current endgame) and get outDPSed by every other class, you are simply doing it wrong. Redlines damage isnt really that bad, its just not viable in most current instances because you simply cant get into position, because bosses move that much, kill everyone nearby or just dont allow to go behind them. Thats sad, but its an issue with instance design. Red line does not need many changes.
    Blueline could be reworked to be a viable traitline for smaller instances. There are many viable roles for this. But that would be more rework than is likely for the near future.
    Yellow line can with some buffs to some skills be good enough to heal/debuff 3man instances, just like LMs do. A direct heal, better clever-retort-heal, maybe slightly better physical damage debuffs and its enough.

    Still, as long as instance design doesnt change, the best hope to be DPSer in instances is for a rework of blueline that changes blueline to ranged DPS or tank.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Thats far from burglar-unique.
    People asked for nerfs whereever they were necessary throughout many years.
    Thats why blue hunters barrage spam was nerfed to the ground.
    Thats why minstrels bolster our courage was nerfed.
    Thats why Wardens DC mits were nerfed.
    And there are many more examples.
    Yes, sure. These were powerful classes of some real distinction. Oh wait these same classes are still powerful classes of distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    you are simply doing it wrong.
    Just stop with this. You are not contributing anything of value at all with nothing that you say. You only seem to have issues with other people posts.

    It is in the dev notes, they from the game side are admitting that burglar class damage needs to be brought inline with the rest of the classes.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Thats far from burglar-unique.
    People asked for nerfs whereever they were necessary throughout many years.
    Thats why blue hunters barrage spam was nerfed to the ground.
    Thats why minstrels bolster our courage was nerfed.
    Thats why Wardens DC mits were nerfed.
    And there are many more examples.


    If you fight a boss, where you have positional throughout the whole fight (I agree thats hard in current endgame) and get outDPSed by every other class, you are simply doing it wrong. Redlines damage isnt really that bad, its just not viable in most current instances because you simply cant get into position, because bosses move that much, kill everyone nearby or just dont allow to go behind them. Thats sad, but its an issue with instance design. Red line does not need many changes.
    Blueline could be reworked to be a viable traitline for smaller instances. There are many viable roles for this. But that would be more rework than is likely for the near future.
    Yellow line can with some buffs to some skills be good enough to heal/debuff 3man instances, just like LMs do. A direct heal, better clever-retort-heal, maybe slightly better physical damage debuffs and its enough.

    Still, as long as instance design doesnt change, the best hope to be DPSer in instances is for a rework of blueline that changes blueline to ranged DPS or tank.

    You play the burglar class when it sings you and now yo give us some advice ^^

  9. #84
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    A story for you.

    World Chat message: "can some one help me with such and such".

    I look up the the character asking because it seems to relate to their level, they are level 97 ranged combat (hint: premium class).

    Then I look over their gear, minimum gap is 20 levels, on all of the gear that the character wears. They were debating what to wear something with 120+ to will but 200 in armor value or 100+to will but 400 armor value.

    I made them a cloak that had 1200 armor value and they were surprised with this sudden change telling me: "You know I never really get to rely on the armor, all enemies die way before they can make it to where I am"

    Now I understand they are talking landscape, but this is the level of where their concern is at. Meaning: ranged attack can not be compared to on hex melee. The effectivness is just sooo much more. It's like comparing black and white, there is no shade of grey here.

    All characters that go into melee combat have to be melee combatants, does not matter through what they get there armor, high morale or buffs together with effective fast dealt damage.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post

    Red line does not need many changes.

    This is what you think. Are you an actual developer? Because all of these "changes" can be easily backed up by numbers of hours of interested people testing and playing.

    It is evident that dev side of the game can see that Burglars as a class are not able to deal same damage as other classes.

    All changes that I am asking for are based on increasing effectiveness of basic skills that all trait lines have.

    We are melee class that does melee, even in yellow trait line. Yet our fastest attack is 3 sec cooldown. As an example Minstrel has 6 attacks with cooldown of 1 sec. No wonder they can run out of power. They can attack 3 times while we are looking at our buttons refreshing. Because 3 sec is the fast one...

    Evade is a major and basic defense tool for a burglar and there are several ways to get self heals from evade. I am asking to scale it up so it becomes relevant in the end game. It is actually not even that much of a big deal because there will remain huge gaps in our defenses like need for major T-mitigation.
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  11. #86
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    Yay finally burg work coming! I'll start by saying I love playing my burg - its incredibly fun and for me thats what the class is about. I've heard others say it should be more like an LM in raids and I completely disagree...we have LMs for LM things, leave the burg with its unique flavour. That being said my Abyss T2 group pretty much never goes without a burg, we always have one and often its me. Im no pro, but here are my requests and things I've noticed while playing in groups as the yellow burg-a-lurg:

    1. I love that the burg is a completely unique feel but in its current state it does feel underwhelming in groups. Because we are melee (and depending on raid mechanics) theres often a trade off for being very effective, usually death. Now that may just be me sucking, though I rarely die...its more of a lot of very close calls. Tricks can be applied from a slightly further distance thank goodness BUT since we need to DPS to heal (with cappy) we need to get real up close and personal. As such 2 things stood out to me...I lost many possible mastery slots to mits essences - more than any of my other classes. So my DPS in yellow is utter garbage. Im aware that its YELLOW line ie NOT a dps line but we need to do at least SOME damage in line with other low-dps classes in yellow also. Imo this needs to be buffed a good deal more. And that leads me to my second point...

    2. Since we are getting up close and personal we rely a lot on our self heals - the last thing I want to be is a burden on the healer who has more important targets to look after. Our passive heals (in blue bob and weave) and the skill Mischievous Delight (slightly less so) are completely useless. And I mean...so pointless as to not even be counted. After the main effect goes off (which is pathetically low) ..688 morale ever 2 seconds for 10 seconds? So 3440 total morale over 10 seconds...for a toon that has around 90k? A simple landscape non elite mob hits for TEN THOUSAND, and easily more than once in a 10 sec period. The other classes that have been worked on had heals boosted, this needs to be done here its so low its a joke. I will say though, that the power restore on Mischievous Delight is fine - no buffs needed.

    3. I really like the idea behind the skill Clever Retort...the fact that I can choose 1 of 4 effects is pretty sweet. But currently all 4 effects are completely useless, again just because they are so under-powered. Burgs aren't group healers, I get that, but in yellow its my job to do as much for the group as I can, and if that means throwing out a back up panic heal then I need to be able to do that. I dont have my most recent numbers using that skill in a group but they are far lower than even Mischievous Delight. No burg that I've met running in Abyss even uses that skill, despite its super potential. And its a FUN skill with the animations and all, but again it needs a serious buff. As well the effects applied to fellowship should apply to whole raid and should have the range limit removed. Im a melee...Im out there doing my thing, burgs tend to sort of move independently of the group...if the group needs a panic heal its near impossible to get back and hit everyone with it, especially with mechanics like puddles etc. Its an annoying limitation. If it cant be removed then the range should be increased to max like a hunter's.

    4. Simple one but the animation on Reveal Weakness is long and puts a delay in skill rotation, even though we do it pre-battle. Maybe shorten that up some?

    5. Currently the trick Counter Defence is never used. Neither me nor any burg I know even bothers with it, most dont even have it on their skill bar. However Im not sure how to change it? I like the idea that its a defensive trick, rather than an offensive, as we have lots of those already. Perhaps just increasing the current numbers a lot? Im sure someone more creative than I may have some better ideas. But as it stands I havent used it once in a group...not in any raid that I can remember.

    6. These suggestions are just random tidbits from red and blue. Overall imo red does NOT need a dps boost at all, but I dont run red often so will not comment overly on it. Blue line skill Gamblers Advantage...that DoT is painful, 834 damage ever 3 sec for 21 sec? LMAO that equates to what 1% of total enemy morale? Please, there isnt even a point in using this skill. Yes I understand it stacks but I find Im far more busy stacking Cunning Attack and wont bother with a pathetic DoT from Gamblers Advantage.


    Last things and disclaimer: Im not sure how the heal balancing would go, since on landscape my burg is unstoppable. I dont even need self heals there, so increasing them might make us too OP. That said - raid off healing is a disaster, we've got nothing. So maybe find a way to seriously boost group off-healing/buffing while not making us wildly OP everywhere else? Maybe just bringing all tricks up in line with other classes as far as effectiveness (glares at Clever Retort) would be enough?

    Someone else pointed out that tricks stack between multiple burgs and thus dont need buffs. While this is the case (and a valid point)...who TF grabs more than 1 burg in a group? NO ONE that I know. Not a single raid group. And even then, the group I run with only specifically requests 1 burg for a very few select raids, other than that they're seen more as a wasted space. I mean there are better DPS options and better support options, so unless a specific raid mechanic calls for a burg...they aren't sought after. Yea tricks stack...but big whoop if there's only ever 1 burg.

    Thanks!
    Ods

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    Just stop with this. You are not contributing anything of value at all with nothing that you say. You only seem to have issues with other people posts.

    It is in the dev notes, they from the game side are admitting that burglar class damage needs to be brought inline with the rest of the classes.
    The devs stated, they'll increase burglars damage, because they reduced their reveal weakness legacy.
    That makes sense and is completely viable.
    If they stated, that there are more reasons to buff burgs DPS and thats why they do so, I must have misread some DEVposts. Sorry then.

    If people make posts that are simply wrong and I know its wrong, I reply and state that. It doesnt help anyone, if people make statements that dont fit to the ingame state.
    A redline burglar DPSing a boss from behind that doesnt do anything against his DPS is clearly better than a Loremaster, Beorning, Captain or Minstrel with same skill. I'm not comparing him to the go-to-DPS-classes, where its closer and where he likely might be worse, but your post said you are outDPSed by every other class. And thats simply your own fault if it happens like that, as long as you are able to fully use your DPS potential, which is another issue.
    Burglars redline has quite good DPS, as long as you can be behind the enemy.

    And what is your Cooldown issue? are you just spamming the same skill over and over or why do you care about individual skill Cooldowns that much?
    As long as the critchain opens every now and then, burglars can easily chain one skill after the other and never have any downtime while using skills. So why do you think, 3s CD is too short? afair, guardians too have 3s CD on their shortest CD skill. But no one cares, because there are enough skills to use while any skill is on cooldown.
    Last edited by Oelle; Dec 02 2018 at 09:22 PM.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddessia View Post
    Yay finally burg work coming! I'll start by saying I love playing my burg - its incredibly fun and for me thats what the class is about. I've heard others say it should be more like an LM in raids and I completely disagree...we have LMs for LM things, leave the burg with its unique flavour. That being said my Abyss T2 group pretty much never goes without a burg, we always have one and often its me. Im no pro, but here are my requests and things I've noticed while playing in groups as the yellow burg-a-lurg:

    HA! At this point I do not care if you are burg-a-lurg or not. Great points!

    From myself on these: Leave us alone *as burglars* do not make us into buffers, de-buffers, healers, there is a good number of these. -And they are all doing good. It is our turn, throw us a bone, or two...






    Quote Originally Posted by Oddessia View Post
    1. I love that the burg is a completely unique feel but in its current state it does feel underwhelming in groups. Because we are melee (and depending on raid mechanics) theres often a trade off for being very effective, usually death. Now that may just be me sucking, though I rarely die...its more of a lot of very close calls.


    Yep, yep, hit them in the back from stealth and all attention is yours. And we have so much defense someone somewhere wrote that Burg can tank, tell you what: please do not believe everything you want to believe.




    Quote Originally Posted by Oddessia View Post
    2. Since we are getting up close and personal we rely a lot on our self heals - the last thing I want to be is a burden on the healer who has more important targets to look after. Our passive heals (in blue bob and weave) and the skill Mischievous Delight (slightly less so) are completely useless. And I mean...so pointless as to not even be counted. After the main effect goes off (which is pathetically low) ..688 morale ever 2 seconds for 10 seconds? So 3440 total morale over 10 seconds...for a toon that has around 90k? A simple landscape non elite mob hits for TEN THOUSAND, and easily more than once in a 10 sec period. The other classes that have been worked on had heals boosted, this needs to be done here its so low its a joke. I will say though, that the power restore on Mischievous Delight is fine - no buffs needed.
    Oh, i have run around all the way to level 120 with an essence in my cloak from Linhir, you know heal on evade. Thinking of slotting it again, who knows. But sounds to me like magical thinking. Good reality check up above there. Yep it is like that.

    Great write up, thank you. Could not comment on everything, but yeah Burglar Life (:
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    If people make posts that are simply wrong and I know its wrong, I reply and state that. It doesnt help anyone, if people make statements that dont fit to the ingame state.
    A redline burglar DPSing a boss from behind that doesnt do anything against his DPS is clearly better than a Loremaster, Beorning, Captain or Minstrel with same skill. I'm not comparing him to the go-to-DPS-classes, where its closer and where he likely might be worse, but your post said you are outDPSed by every other class. And thats simply your own fault if it happens like that, as long as you are able to fully use your DPS potential, which is another issue.
    Burglars redline has quite good DPS, as long as you can be behind the enemy.
    You realize that you are not offering any ideas for Burglar change?

    Do you?

    You realize that you seem to be here not to write about Burglar Class upcoming changes but about other people writing about these?

    Do you?

    The whole paragraph above that you wrote is not based on any real hunt but only on hypothetical possibility that never happens.

    Why write these things?
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    guardians too have 3s CD on their shortest CD skill. But no one cares, because there are enough skills to use while any skill is on cooldown.
    Aha, now I like you, there it is, how I could not have seen it before.

    Yes, yes yes.

    Give Burglars heavy armor and a shield. This is finally the idea you are begging me to listen to?

    Or no, still you got not a single idea after all these posts?

    Ok, I will take heavy armor and a shield, because you know how you are never ever wrong.
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  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    You realize that you are not offering any ideas for Burglar change?
    So these are no ideas/suggestions on what to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Yea... but thats an issue of class- and instance-design. Burglar can only buff/debuff/CC and melee DPS. Most smaller instances are easier with ranged DPS and dont require buffs/debuffs or in many times other classes just can fill the gap better.
    Burglar has a completely redundant traitline, which could be changed to something viable (either tanking or healing (even though yellow already has some groupheals, which could just be made good enough to be viable for smaller groups) or just ranged DPS, like a traitline that uses throwing knifes) and the issue would be gone.

    It wont help burglars to get more DPS in redline, because its still melee DPS and unwanted (unless its completely OP dps and such makes some things too simple).
    If yellow tricks get buffed to be on par or better than LM debuffs, then obviously yellow burglars need to lose their group-DPS-increasing potential in return, making them worse choices for raids.

    Small changes to existing skills simply wont get burglars into small-group-instances reliably.

    Burglars have some things, that are simply OP, but they completely lack a viable role for usual smaller instances.
    They should get a new blueline to be viable for smaller instances and need their OP things nerfed (like raidwide double debuff cleansing).
    And well... CDG could just be converted to another HIPS (a shorttime version, that just stays active for 3-5s and breaks with damage), or just be an improved version of improved Feint Attack, which applies ALL stealth-bonusses to the next attack and it would be fine. It should never have done the amount of damage it does.

    And obviously, some traits need some work.
    It doesnt make sense to have one trait give +100% stealth damage for one point and others give +25% stealthdamage for 5 points or +20% critdamage from stealth for 6 points.
    5% critmult is lackluster. The proccchance raise for vital points is irrelevant, when its nearly always active with just one point (plus the issue, that enemies rarely even have viable amounts of critical defense).
    Counter Defense is a joke. Clever Retort, too.
    Always having 100% chance to win isnt gambling.
    Double Down is obviously OP where it can be used.
    Sharp Eye is a bad joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    You realize that you seem to be here not to write about Burglar Class upcoming changes but about other people writing about these?
    No. I'm just here to post my opinion on burglars and correct people that write misleading feedback. I dont care how you feel about what I seem to do.
    Concerning feedback to the changes the DEVs already made for bullroarer... well... all people that commented on that wrote the same, so I dont feel I need to repeat it again. But for the sake of making you happy: The changes sound good, but wont change much. Critical defense debuffs are uninteresting as long as most enemies dont have any critical defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    The whole paragraph above that you wrote is not based on any real hunt but only on hypothetical possibility that never happens.

    Why write these things?
    Well. Thats what redline burglar is. A quite nice bursty DPSer, as long as he can be in position behind the enemy.
    If thats impossible in many instances, thats an issue of instance design, not of burglars red traitline.
    You cant just state "burglars cannot fulfill their role" while meaning their DPS role, when burglars dont simply have just any DPS role. They just have a positional-melee-DPS role. I totally agree that thats annoying, because no one else is so restricted.
    Thats why I suggest, burglars should get a blue traitline that has a viable role for smaller instances or so much increased healing that yellow is good enough for these. They can even keep the gambling-theme, no matter if they make it more tanky or ranged DPS. For getting blue burgs tanky, not that much change would be needed. Just give them Passively +20% morale and +10% mits, increase their thread accordingly, give them one or two forcetaunts and increase "Bob and Weave" healing to something like 10% of maxmorale each 10s.
    As a panic-skill, they already have to potent ones now and if they got a passive thats called "cheat death" and gives them a heal with 1-2min CD whenever they would otherwise have died or something like that, that fits the gamblers theme, too. Still, for it to be a gambling traitline, the chances for all those proccs have to be below 100%.
    Last edited by Oelle; Dec 03 2018 at 05:26 AM.
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  17. #92

    Suggestion for changes as DPS class

    Hey ho fellows,

    it is great that so many people want to change things of this obviously flawed class. I respect the effort and passion some players put into their posts!

    I am not the most experienced player and my burglar is not even close to the maximum level (lvl75 currently). But that might give me a perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about raiding and pvmp in general.
    At the first glance that doesn't sound like i should post anything here but maybe my perspective is somewhat useful.

    I love to play burglar, especially the blue line is fun!
    Now that i compare this class more and more to others it feels like it is just weaker in many aspects which makes me sad since it is a fun class!

    The positional dmg/stealth boni and stuff like that out of the red like looks nice at first but if people are honest it is way too static for a class to be effective in combat. The class lacks options once the fight started. Stuns will lower in duration everytime they are applied so i am not able to stay behind the enemy because i cannot control it enough. That alone lowers my dmg extremely. There are no abilities that allow me to get effectivly behind the opponent. There are no mobility skills which could allow that. I am just a worse champion once the initiation is over. In other games burglar-like classes most of the time have some sort of cc-chain or mobility skills to be able to use against their opponents once they are in a fight.
    Why is the burglar so static in this game? I understand that cc-chains are a problem, in fact i played about 8 years ago and endless cc-chains were a thing which was unbalanced! So i wouldn't change the cc system. That would be too crazy to adjust one class' issues! But my approach is that i would like to see some mobility skills which allow me to engage/disengage in certain situations to have more control over my own situation. This class has no tankiness (medium armor only, no shield and not much self sustained heal). It is vulnerable in close combat and this is a known, huge issue in instances. It is sad that this class can only play one role within instances effectively. Why don't you give me ways to at least control my own position a little more? It would be awesome to be useful in two ways (either dd or debuffer). Variety always brings fun to classes :3

    Another thing i noticed is that fellowship menouvres became obsolete. I liked that system and it is sad that there is no use for it other than cc for a few seconds on bosses. One of the burgs major tasks was to force these at very important points in instances. Since this major task is obsolete, many abilities/buffs(fm-wise) the burg gets from its skilltree are useless. Why don't you exchange those with effective self buffs/debuffs/bleeds if there is no point in forcing those menouvres? I mean the cc might have a use but then you could make it a better stun(which can be applied to every target no matter if boss or not) without fm. Maybe apply a short debuff for that stun duration or something like that. At the point where you want to change the fm-system you can make it fit to the new burgs standard if you want the burg as the main class to handle the fm's.

    In terms of dmg, you have to decide if the burg shall be a burst dd(huge numbers, few abilities) or a dd with consistant dps(bleeds). It would be way easier to balance if you go one way or the other in my opinion.

    Noone expects a perfect class after one update, it is a living process and should be addressed frequently. There are many suggestions and opinions. Just take your time and make a good class balanced system.
    Thank you for your time, i hope this helps in any way.
    Last edited by GrafSchwarz; Dec 03 2018 at 06:11 AM.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkdede View Post
    What you want to see? How the groupe wipes in Thikil-Gundu, because the Burglar cant debuff like a Loremaster?
    Or maybe taking +20% of the time because the Burglars damage doesnt compare to others?
    Anything would suffice.

  19. #94

    SSG just compare burg, please.

    On a screenshot at the LM not all his useful abilities are shown, and the burglar has no AOE as a concept. It very weak in the yellow line.
    If you look at statistics of classes, then it is the MOST unpopular class now and if look at the mute of passing of PVE of content (if it is available for you), then it there will practically not be.
    People pay in game currency (gold) or ask the friends that they finished instance for them.
    I understand that you want to balance PVP and PVE, but it should not affect balance of a class.
    the burglar now a useless class in PVE. Even if to take statistics which I could collect then on this statistics only 1 burglar from 100 could pass new intances (tier 3). He needs cardinal alteration of the yellow line.
    Alteration of the red line.
    How to it to remake the red line? First it needs to raise a loss by 1.5 - 2 times, but to remove from the game CDG(coup ge grace), I consider that this ability was a mistake, to make it in order that PVMP monsters did not cry. From tests I say that a loss of the burglar, the burglar's debuff very weak.
    Someone will tell that the burglar has a good loss, for etoy people I will answer: Create the burglar, play the burglar, create RK play them. Compare.
    At all this the burglar uses melee skills. That is he receives much more loss than RK\hunter. What turns out? its loss is lower than a loss of RK below than the hunter's loss, he uses melee skills. Solve for yourself, but all this is wrong.. Champion also uses Melee skills, but its loss is 5-7 times higher in comparison with the burglar

    P.S: all debuffs at LM are combined, and at the burglar only if to choose, but to choose there is nothing. Practically all its debuffs is trashcan

    Last edited by Leonid3703; Dec 03 2018 at 09:00 AM.

  20. #95
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    Seattle
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    Everything about buffing yellow should not happen, the vast dif between lm debuffing and yellow burg debuffing is, yellow lm cant dps 30k-40k dps on a boss while in yellow but burgs can, with that being said there is no reason to give yellow burglar any buffs to make it equally as strong debuffer as the lm period.


    And this 50% heal is OP why has not been nerfed along with beorns on beta its seriously OP unless you either remove the ability to reset that skill balance is extremely in favor of the burglar, and or making it only resettable/50% in yellow and 30% like hunter press onward in red/blue, no reason a high burst dps class like that should have such a heal or survivability, not to mention hipsing twice/melee reflect/and power debuff enemy.

    Imo change ready and able to only yellow line or cut down the amount skills it can reset if you plan keep these changes atm a burg is legit unkillable with the skills it has now in moors and perhaps stronger than a hunter on landscape

  21. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    291
    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    Everything about buffing yellow should not happen, the vast dif between lm debuffing and yellow burg debuffing is, yellow lm cant dps 30k-40k dps on a boss while in yellow but burgs can, with that being said there is no reason to give yellow burglar any buffs to make it equally as strong debuffer as the lm period.


    And this 50% heal is OP why has not been nerfed along with beorns on beta its seriously OP unless you either remove the ability to reset that skill balance is extremely in favor of the burglar, and or making it only resettable/50% in yellow and 30% like hunter press onward in red/blue, no reason a high burst dps class like that should have such a heal or survivability, not to mention hipsing twice/melee reflect/and power debuff enemy.

    Imo change ready and able to only yellow line or cut down the amount skills it can reset if you plan keep these changes atm a burg is legit unkillable with the skills it has now in moors and perhaps stronger than a hunter on landscape

    The next person who doesn’t play a burg and got 0 idea about the whole class.

    Except for the posts of Dobb and Fingerz there is sadly 99% bull#### here in this thread from butthurt pvp people who simply have 0 idea about the burg class.

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    Everything about buffing yellow should not happen, the vast dif between lm debuffing and yellow burg debuffing is, yellow lm cant dps 30k-40k dps on a boss while in yellow but burgs can, with that being said there is no reason to give yellow burglar any buffs to make it equally as strong debuffer as the lm period.


    And this 50% heal is OP why has not been nerfed along with beorns on beta its seriously OP unless you either remove the ability to reset that skill balance is extremely in favor of the burglar, and or making it only resettable/50% in yellow and 30% like hunter press onward in red/blue, no reason a high burst dps class like that should have such a heal or survivability, not to mention hipsing twice/melee reflect/and power debuff enemy.

    Imo change ready and able to only yellow line or cut down the amount skills it can reset if you plan keep these changes atm a burg is legit unkillable with the skills it has now in moors and perhaps stronger than a hunter on landscape


    Such DPS can be will eat your average damage 15000 and the attacks in a second 2.2-2.3 will become. And now to practice. Your Dps on the burglar from whom debuff is required (the yellow line will not exceed 5000). So as that so! did you in general play long ago on the burglar?
    LM can give debuff so that my damage will be twice more. My DPS on my hunter without buff\debuff in instance 40000-55000 t3. With it it rises to 70000-80000. LM can be taken instead of the healer. Its Hps is enough to pass intances t3 for three of people. And the burglar will be simply useless. HPS from LM on a tank will make 15000-23000. Crit by water-lore 19000-24000 and it is HOT (heal over time(stacks 3 times)) of Crit by beacon of hope 55000-63000 (with 3 WL 80000). And at me on the burglar 634 it are 35 times less. You think by 35 times.
    Once again I will repeat the Burglar cannot have big DPS in the yellow line because its attacks very long, and tricks and abilities from bleedings have very small damage 4 times smaller than the hunter has penetration shot and 7 times less than essay of fire at RK



    In this updating under the burglar just did not make gear. If you dress the svey burglar on damage, you will just die of AOE of the attacks in 10-20 seconds. Yes, it is perhaps possible bdt can make 20k 30 DPS, but in it there will be no advantage if you die, and you will die your damage will be equal to zero

    By the way, the burglar can aim himself for 50% and LM can the hunter or it is simple to RK to cure 40-80% and to give it HOT(heal over time) for 10-30% each 4 seconds and CD on this ability at it 30 seconds but not 5 minutes



    Last edited by Leonid3703; Dec 03 2018 at 11:11 AM.

  23. #98
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    Jun 2011
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    Germany
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    725
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonid3703 View Post
    I play a LM and Burg. Tbh it has always been like this right? The Burglar DEALS a good amount of damage but the game is melee unfriendly. THAT is the problem. We always had 1xLM and 1xBurg in our raid. Does not make sense to take 2LMs.

    Some people say that the Burg heal should be equal to the Lms heal but this is bs. It does not suit the class at all. By QQing like this you will bet ssg to nerf the LM which is going to hurt every raiding group and delete another class from being useful in 3mans.

    IMO the only thing that should be buffed to LM level should be the outgoing damage debuff on target. 2x it would be higher thank the Lms debuffs and so the Burg would be useful too. + Cons should get a buff too.

    PLUS: The minas thirith set also buffs the LM right now. But it does not belong in the end game...

    AND this: "Burglar Yellow Line: All different tricks should stack up!"
    Last edited by Hildilas; Dec 03 2018 at 12:04 PM.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    I play a LM and Burg. Tbh it has always been like this right? The Burglar DEALS a good amount of damage but the game is melee unfriendly. THAT is the problem. We always had 1xLM and 1xBurg in our raid. Does not make sense to take 2LMs.

    Some people say that the Burg heal should be equal to the Lms heal but this is bs. It does not suit the class at all. By QQing like this you will bet ssg to nerf the LM which is going to hurt every raiding group and delete another class from being useful in 3mans.

    IMO the only thing that should be buffed to LM level should be the outgoing damage debuff on target. 2x it would be higher thank the Lms debuffs and so the Burg would be useful too. + Cons should get a buff too.

    PLUS: The minas thirith set also buffs the LM right now. But it does not belong in the end game...

    AND this: "Burglar Yellow Line: All different tricks should stack up!"
    In general you are right, but execution of a burg in updating 23 is made awfully badly if to take change of characteristics and CAP. Unfortunately with the burglar so was from u15 to u19.1 then there was Mordor where the burglar still could cause a loss because it was possible, and now this useless body in 3-6 man instances. And in raid of the burglar take only because his gain to damage of your hunters \rk will be more, than to invite 1 more hunter or rk. But, here we see change of Reavel weakness (13.5%) and on my subsets, the loss of raid will be same how to invite the hunter or Rk. It turns out that from the burglar disable which needs to be improved will be just useful. By the way, disable is the BEST trick of the burglar from 4. Dust in eyes does not work in raid, Counter Defence is TRASH X 10. Here also remains or enrage or disable. In 1 time the choice is, and in other time it is absent. Also, if they want to change the burglar's mark, then it was necessary to improve talent from yellow that from the most useful talent of the burglar there was an advantage, and that turns out that the burglar is a bear of LM in terms of debuff. I consider that Counter defense has to give +3 (tier 1) of +6% (tier2) of crit chance to target and a trick of the burglar there have to be AOE on 3 targets. I do not say at all that LM are OP, I say that the burglar is trash. And in raid it is useful only because from it there will be slightly more gain of IMPACT in raid, than from DPS class.
    Will not take the burglar because there are classes which surpass him in everything several times in 3-6 man instances. Let's think to whom the burglar is similar? I incline that he is similar to Cappy\lm because its task is a support. It is written even during creation of the character. If to take Cappy, then at it more useful abilities than at the burglar, and also presence of the reviving ability are simple. I already am silent that at cappy there is a lot of useful Gear which can increase damage of DPS classes by 2-3 times on average for 25 seconds, and is possible more. And if to compare the burglar to LM, then in this case it loses to it in everything. If you played from the moment of 2009-2013, then the burglar was very useful and it had debuff which was better than at LM and was so conceived by developers of a game, at that time when LM VERY useful class too. The mistake of developers was that at some certain moment they wanted to make of the burglar of DPS class and then it was not realized and forgotten about existence of this class in a game. When there was an updating of Helm's deep the system of talents so was processed that they made LM well, and to the burglar removed everything and stuffed all this to different branches in a chaotic order so the problem of this class was allowed 4 more years, and can 5 years ago. I will repeat again, the burglar needs to overwork yellow liny cardinally, perhaps, to remove something that to add that or to trade places. I offer the easiest ways of the solution of this problem, but actually processing of the burglar, it is an error of five-year prescription.
    It is possible to make so that tricks of the burglar it was possible to combine in yellow line. There is a lot of decisions, but personally I with it will be able to make nothing
    Last edited by Leonid3703; Dec 03 2018 at 01:16 PM.

  25. #100
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    Good work aPE's, now, we can take apart three feedback posts and qualify this thread as the epic mislead. Learn to play the class before posting. lul

 

 
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