We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 26 to 44 of 44
  1. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    15,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemond71 View Post
    You don't know that. No one knows how many players were attracted to lotro via PvMP ... the data just does not exist.
    Oh, it exists. It's just that SSG has access to the figures and we don't.

    We do know that it kept a lot of players though. For many years, PvMP was a thriving end-game. It engaged many people who were done with PvE content and would have otherwise left.

    Turbine admitted several times that PvMP was vastly more successful than they had ever anticipated - they had initially never even considered that a significant number of players would make it their solo focus and play nothing but creep.

    An interesting stat to see would be total /played for every lotro character, split between moors and not moors. I think the % of moors would be much higher than many anti-pvpers would assume.
    But, again ... we don't have the numbers.

    The only time we got numbers that gave us the slightest clue of the ratio of PvP to PvE players was back in the first couple years of Asheron's Call, when the world selection screen would give us the numbers of how many *player characters* were *currently* logged in to each server. This was to encourage new players to make their characters on the currently least-populated server, which would appear at the top of the list.

    The all-PvP server, Darktide, always had about one-tenth the population of any other server.

    There was PvP available on the other worlds too, but you had to be (IIRC) level 20 and perform a rather difficult (at level 20) quest to reach the Altar of Bael'Zharon and become a PvP player (called a "red dot" because that's how you would appear on other players' radar). I seldom saw any red dots at all ... perhaps I was just playing in parts of the game where the red dots didn't hang out.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone
    www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    15,211
    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    I would love to hear your list of "constant" changes that have been made for pvp that have had such a huge negative impact on pve:
    Start at 2007 and list in order by year?
    I can think of only one offhand ... but then I don't PvMP, and pay as little as possible attention to news about it.

    But early on, the War-speech (later called Dissonance) stance for the Minstrel got the glowy-hands phenomenon added to it, because PvMP players wanted to know when the Minstrel on the other side was in healing or fighting mode. There's no point to it in PvE. There's no great harm in it either; it's just an annoyance.

    And if a Minstrel who spends most of his/her time fighting solo and in Dissonance goes fishing, the glowy effect gets transferred from the hands to the fish. Which the devs have admitted looks silly, but apparently there's nothing they can do about it.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone
    www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorthnoth View Post
    I said constant demands, not constant changes. I'd suggest, for a start, that a lot of the changes that have made the burglar more or less redundant in pve have the origins in creep qqing - ditto hunter nerfs.
    So nothing really? When Burgs were nerfed they massively OP in Pve and pvp and the same goes for hunter. If you played pvp at the time it was silly to be one shot by a hunter from stealth and that goes for pve also. I believe that the devs have never changed a single thing in Pve because of the balance in pvp. They just didn't/don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    I can think of only one offhand ... but then I don't PvMP, and pay as little as possible attention to news about it.

    But early on, the War-speech (later called Dissonance) stance for the Minstrel got the glowy-hands phenomenon added to it, because PvMP players wanted to know when the Minstrel on the other side was in healing or fighting mode. There's no point to it in PvE. There's no great harm in it either; it's just an annoyance.

    And if a Minstrel who spends most of his/her time fighting solo and in Dissonance goes fishing, the glowy effect gets transferred from the hands to the fish. Which the devs have admitted looks silly, but apparently there's nothing they can do about it.
    I have never heard that and I have played freep and creep between 2008 and 2013 and im fairly sure that the glowy hands were about between those dates.
    WHY DO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE LEAST, KNOW IT THE LOUDEST?

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    15,211
    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    I have never heard that and I have played freep and creep between 2008 and 2013 and im fairly sure that the glowy hands were about between those dates.
    Minstrels in Dissonance *still* get glowy hands. And the glow transfers to the fish they've just caught.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone
    www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Oh, it exists. It's just that SSG has access to the figures and we don't.
    No, it really doesn't.

    To be clear, we are discussing whether PvMP attracted a player to the game. This is not "data" that can that can be measured in-game through in-game behaviour.

    Unless Turbine/SSG have conducted surveys of a representative sample of players - or can read minds - they cannot know the criteria players used in making their decision to play lotro. This is a one off decision that is not necessarily reflected in any in-game behaviour whatsoever.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    So nothing really? When Burgs were nerfed they massively OP in Pve and pvp and the same goes for hunter. If you played pvp at the time it was silly to be one shot by a hunter from stealth and that goes for pve also. I believe that the devs have never changed a single thing in Pve because of the balance in pvp. They just didn't/don't care.
    Burgs weren't OP at all in Update 23 in PvE or PvP (real 120s, or scaled up), but were still nerfed into the ground in 23.1.7, which can be seen as a lagged response to PvP demands that Burgs be nerfed, from all the way back to early 115 cap, because while Devs just don't care about PvP itself, they're also ignorant of PvE and the how the classes play as a whole (because they clearly haven't had Devs who play the End Game seriously in years), so all complaints about any class in any context is likely to get filed into an "Overpowered, Please Nerf" inbox that just builds until full and eventually gets a long delayed response, even if the original context no longer applies.
    Arkenstone (formerly Landroval):
    Lizaveta, r13 Minstrel.

    Eviliz Unseen, r11 Warg. Lizifer, r11 Defiler.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    4,517
    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemond71 View Post
    No, it really doesn't.
    As someone who works in data centers and servers that process all sorts of (completely non game related) data, I can tell you that SSG can very likely pull all sorts of interesting statistics out of their hats, by running SQL queries directly on to their database, and they very likely (almost certain) run regular reports on the servers to get data.

    We don't see any of this data, but I guarantee you that SSG staff knows EXACTLY how many people enter the Ettenmoors on a given day, and can go back to 2007 to pull reports as to how much it was back then, and how this data relates to the amount of people logging in PvE zones, how many people run instances, and which ones, and which rewards they get, how many rank 10s or rank 12s they have , etc, etc.... They can even pull up how many people ran a certain quest, and they have used this information to make changes to quests (and have said as much in the past). There is an enormous amount of game data available that we, the players, will never have access to, but they can report to their management exactly how many people do what in the game, and how that might translate into potential revenue.

    So yes, they can absolutely run a report and give their management an overview of how many people do PvP, the percentage of people who do freep, creep, both, and the time spent, how many of those are VIP, and how many of those are free players (and maybe creep only) or get access to PvP through other means, what their rankings are, how many /played hours they have in Ettenmoors only, and they could probably collect all the dates of major PvP updates they have done, and compare that with how many VIP subs they lost or gained in that same month, and how many of the VIP subs gained actually went into the Ettenmoors.

    Databases are incredibly fun, and I guarantee you SSG can pull all sorts of really cool information out of them if they want.

    Some of this information WAS actually public and searchable when my.lotro.com existed prior to 2013 or so. You could literally punch in a person's character name, and see how many times they had ran certain instances, etc, etc.... If you played PvMP a lot back then, you should probably remember the Leaderboard that was published on who had which ranks in the Ettenmoors, and how much Renown they had, etc...

    I found a few old screenshots from when my.lotro.com was launched in beta in 2008: https://www.engadget.com/2008/12/10/...934832&index=0

    Since 2008 further improvements were made, and when I started playing in late 2010/early 2011, you could get heaps of information from it.... there were even ways to tell how many times a person had slain Sambrog - which was quite cool information back when at level 85 cap we were all trying to get that dreaded gold pocket item!
    Moved from Riddermark to Arkenstone on 9/29/2015!
    -----
    Disclaimer: The definition of "Soon™" is based solely on SSG's interpretation of the word, and all similarities with dictionary definitions of the word "Soon™" are purely coincidental and should not be interpreted as a time frame that will come to pass within a reasonable amount of time.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    As someone who works in data centers and servers that process all sorts of (completely non game related) data, I can tell you that SSG can very likely pull all sorts of interesting statistics out of their hats, by running SQL queries directly on to their database, and they very likely (almost certain) run regular reports on the servers to get data.

    We don't see any of this data, but I guarantee you that SSG staff knows EXACTLY how many people enter the Ettenmoors on a given day, and can go back to 2007 to pull reports as to how much it was back then, and how this data relates to the amount of people logging in PvE zones, how many people run instances, and which ones, and which rewards they get, how many rank 10s or rank 12s they have , etc, etc.... They can even pull up how many people ran a certain quest, and they have used this information to make changes to quests (and have said as much in the past). There is an enormous amount of game data available that we, the players, will never have access to, but they can report to their management exactly how many people do what in the game, and how that might translate into potential revenue.

    So yes, they can absolutely run a report and give their management an overview of how many people do PvP, the percentage of people who do freep, creep, both, and the time spent, how many of those are VIP, and how many of those are free players (and maybe creep only) or get access to PvP through other means, what their rankings are, how many /played hours they have in Ettenmoors only, and they could probably collect all the dates of major PvP updates they have done, and compare that with how many VIP subs they lost or gained in that same month, and how many of the VIP subs gained actually went into the Ettenmoors.

    Databases are incredibly fun, and I guarantee you SSG can pull all sorts of really cool information out of them if they want.

    Some of this information WAS actually public and searchable when my.lotro.com existed prior to 2013 or so. You could literally punch in a person's character name, and see how many times they had ran certain instances, etc, etc.... If you played PvMP a lot back then, you should probably remember the Leaderboard that was published on who had which ranks in the Ettenmoors, and how much Renown they had, etc...

    I found a few old screenshots from when my.lotro.com was launched in beta in 2008: https://www.engadget.com/2008/12/10/...934832&index=0

    Since 2008 further improvements were made, and when I started playing in late 2010/early 2011, you could get heaps of information from it.... there were even ways to tell how many times a person had slain Sambrog - which was quite cool information back when at level 85 cap we were all trying to get that dreaded gold pocket item!
    All true, but all irrelevant.

    None of what you say has any bearing whatsoever on whether the existence of PvMP factored into a player's initial decision to buy the game. One player might buy the game purely for LOTR only peripherally aware there is any PvP at all. Then not too far into the game, randomly stumble upon a fell scrying pool, try PvMP as a creep and get hooked. That was my experience. Another example would be a player who has heard the game has PvP, and decides to sign up as a result. Plays it for an hour and hates it, but stays for PvE.

    In both these examples (and all others) in-game behaviour tells absolutely nothing about the reasons a player initially tried the game.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    Burgs weren't OP at all in Update 23 in PvE or PvP (real 120s, or scaled up), but were still nerfed into the ground in 23.1.7, which can be seen as a lagged response to PvP demands that Burgs be nerfed, from all the way back to early 115 cap, because while Devs just don't care about PvP itself, they're also ignorant of PvE and the how the classes play as a whole (because they clearly haven't had Devs who play the End Game seriously in years), so all complaints about any class in any context is likely to get filed into an "Overpowered, Please Nerf" inbox that just builds until full and eventually gets a long delayed response, even if the original context no longer applies.
    poke your head out of the virtual world for a few hours.... there is sunshine and fresh air out there... it's called real life. You need some if you think that is how this business works. "lets wait until this inbox gets full and only then will we action something 5 years later"

    I never referenced u23 when talking about burgs and hunters. You assumed, very much how you do in regard to how a company plans there updates. And yes they do occasionally react to obvious errors they make but never at the expenses of pve for pvp.... ludicrous notion.
    WHY DO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE LEAST, KNOW IT THE LOUDEST?

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post
    Stuff about data centres and data
    Quote Originally Posted by Bohemond71 View Post
    All true, but all irrelevant.
    Any data can be spun to make your own point valid and so when comparing database information you need to have the raw data and be able to pivot and cross compare dozens and sometimes hundreds of views in order to get an accurate reading of what you are looking for.
    I doubt SSG have the time or experience to be able to put an unbiased comparison together.

    However, we can use a little common sense and think on a basic level:
    If we postulate (we obviously don't know and have to discount those that cross play regularly) that 50% of pvp players play creep and 50% play Freep.
    Then in 2007 until 2011 (iirc) there was no F2p and everyone was subbed. Therefore, you came to Lotro and played PVE because there was a level limit you had to reach (unsure about whether level or out of starter area) in PVE before you could get to play PVP even as a creep.
    So, lets think that you create a character in order to get to pvp and tootle along and then create a creep. If this is at the start there is no foes and so you go back to levelling your pve character.
    So, you look at the data and already you have a minimum of 1:1 at best within the folks who only want to Pvp creep. More so with those who want to pvp freep.
    2:1 in regards of time played with that figure spiralling ever upwards the longer it takes for freeps to reach end game.

    Anyway all this rambling means that unless you have an unbiased look at the data you can only realise that which is uncertain. There is no absolutes in databases.
    WHY DO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE LEAST, KNOW IT THE LOUDEST?

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Posts
    21,133
    Quote Originally Posted by maartena View Post

    Some of this information WAS actually public and searchable when my.lotro.com existed prior to 2013 or so. You could literally punch in a person's character name, and see how many times they had ran certain instances, etc, etc.... If you played PvMP a lot back then, you should probably remember the Leaderboard that was published on who had which ranks in the Ettenmoors, and how much Renown they had, etc...

    I found a few old screenshots from when my.lotro.com was launched in beta in 2008: https://www.engadget.com/2008/12/10/...934832&index=0

    Oh man, I am so glad that my.lotro.com went the way of the Dodo. Oh, I hated it with the passion of a thousand burning suns. Someone used it to track everything and everywhere I went. It sucked. There was an anonymous feature, but it was clunky and did not work 100%. Good riddance, I hope nothing like this ever pops up again.

    That was during the age of the 3 year forum beta. The forums kept logging out by themselves, infractions were handed out like candy, the CM had his own version of Malfoy and Slytherin from Harry Potter cracking down on forum members, threads complaining about the condition of the forums were either closed or declared by the CM to be on the player's end, and complaints were given infractions for "false information".

    The forums logged out by itself so often that you literally had to copy your text after every few sentences to avoid losing your data.

    I remember once receiving a warning for a ban from the forums if I complained one more time about the forums logging out. I lost track of how many infractions I had. Oh, and the rep system. UGH.


    So yeah, all that is gone and good riddance.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    poke your head out of the virtual world for a few hours.... there is sunshine and fresh air out there... it's called real life. You need some if you think that is how this business works. "lets wait until this inbox gets full and only then will we action something 5 years later".
    Ad hominem, and introduction of a Straw Man with the "5 years later," unless you're just ignorant and thought U22 to U23 was half a decade, rather than March 2018 to December 2018, from U22 to the 23.1.7.

    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    I never referenced u23 when talking about burgs and hunters.
    "When Burgs were nerfed they massively OP in Pve and pvp," so what were you referencing then, since it isn't the most recent and punishing nerf, and the most recent U23 period? Again just what era are you referencing that Burgs were "massively OP in Pve" and why does it take precedence and disprove current events?

    Quote Originally Posted by TearMaker View Post
    You assumed, very much how you do in regard to how a company plans there updates. And yes they do occasionally react to obvious errors they make but never at the expenses of pve for pvp.... ludicrous notion.
    It takes more assumption to asssume competency at this point. What the Burgs were nerfed in preparation for some future updates, leaving them underpowered until then?
    Arkenstone (formerly Landroval):
    Lizaveta, r13 Minstrel.

    Eviliz Unseen, r11 Warg. Lizifer, r11 Defiler.

  13. #38

    Semi-Working PvMP is on Live Servers / Leave Legendary Servers Pure....No PvMp on Them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorthnoth View Post
    I venture to disagree. I would argue that the constant demands for "balance" in PvMP have led to some changes which adversely affect aspects of PvE play, particularly where the attractiveness or otherwise of certain classes among players creating groups is concerned. Or, putting it in other words, changes have been made in response to demands from PvMP players which have had unintended consequences in the open world.
    Very well said. Rarely when changes are being made to PvMP play - (either to re-balance or nerf or enhance) - has there ever been zero adverse affects on the PVE environment.

    PvMP is currently up and running on the live servers, and nothing keeps VIP'ers and Lifer's from partaking in PvMP there. Leave the legendary servers alone and pure.

    I don't feel there are enough SSG resources to make a moving level PvMP that works and also never affects PVE environment...no one has done that to Lotro in almost 12 years now....I don't think anyone can do it now. Please let the Dev's spend there time on just fixing the balance problems on the Live servers that was caused by too many "asked/cryed for changes in PvMP".

    Just an opinion of a long-time player.

    But..thank you SSG for giving us a chance to once again live the Lotro experience as close to the way it was originally brought out. It has so far been an enjoyable 2 months. Let's keep it as pure as possible going forward.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,682
    Quote Originally Posted by fiedra View Post
    I know that many of us would be thrilled to see a renewal of LOTRO PvMP, and the Legendary Servers would just be that much more legendary in my book should the Ettenmoors be opened for level 50s!
    I'd love to see PvP on Anor. Not just because I've got a Beorning (and that would be hilarious to see in a fight, what with how strong they are), but because I was an avid PvPer before. It gave me a reason to customise my character and build up a whole PvP set. PvP was a nice bit of end-game for people who were done with raids and wanted to try their skills out.

    Give Anor and Ithil PvMP.
    Before making a complaint here, ask yourself this: "Am I still giving SSG money?". If the answer is yes, there's no point complaining.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    991
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    I'd love to see PvP on Anor. Not just because I've got a Beorning (and that would be hilarious to see in a fight, what with how strong they are), but because I was an avid PvPer before. It gave me a reason to customise my character and build up a whole PvP set. PvP was a nice bit of end-game for people who were done with raids and wanted to try their skills out.

    Exactly this. Pvmp is the only end game that never ends. If the pvmp is going well then so will the subscriptions. It does not end with completing a raid or accomplishing grabbing an item. People enjoy the challenge and fun of running with friends and others. If you want the legendary servers to maintain the cash flow then they need to keep the player engaged and not everyone wants to level alt after alt. When players run out of things to do in the game they move on to other games and the lack of pvp has truly hurt this game in the long run. Lotro was a much better game than wow, but it did not offer everything wow did and it hurt its cashflow.

    As far as the balance issue do not blame pvmp. The devs can balance creeps however they choose. They don't have to nerf freep side to balance creep side. Not with this version of pvp. They can buff or give new skills to creeps if they choose.
    .
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothir View Post
    I'd love to see PvP on Anor. Not just because I've got a Beorning (and that would be hilarious to see in a fight, what with how strong they are), but because I was an avid PvPer before. It gave me a reason to customise my character and build up a whole PvP set. PvP was a nice bit of end-game for people who were done with raids and wanted to try their skills out.
    *wave*

    Wouldn't mind PvMP on Legendary Servers, as it would be a clean slate for all. Do I see it happening? No, not really.
    I think SSG don't have the kind of resources to do the work required while developing the main game, and I would prefer to see them work and bring out new areas, new raids, hell, even a 64-bit Client has to have higher priority than bringing PvMP to the Legendary Servers, however much we'd all like to Creepside from scratch again.
    Hir i Meigol Bruinen/High Council Member of the EoI/Of the Exiles of the Hidden City/Meigol Bruinen, Uncle Seregnin's Misguided Children, Curse the name of Maeglin, the Treacherous Villain, forever, may he rot in the Halls of Mandos for all time....
    Player Councillor. http://www.swtor.com/r/XWNQXP is my refer-a-friend link for SWTOR.

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Ainworth View Post
    This is my opinion only.

    First I have not done much PvMP because I do not care for that style of play. I got burned out of PVP due to the fiasco that "Conan the Barbarian" MMORPG became. Talk about an unplayable mess.

    Knowing that the game license does not allow World PvMP,

    Setup the PvMP areas allowed, as a separate server a la Legendary Servers and the Bullroarer Server.

    1. You can either create a new character and start from scratch or

    2. Copy your Characters to the server.

    The MAIN thing is that NO PvMP gear can be sent back to a landscape server and ALL PvMP gear on a landscape server will be DISABLED.

    Benefits:

    Rewards and skills can be balanced for landscape only on the Landscape servers and PvMP gear and Skills, the same on the PvMP server.

    All that want to do PvMP can Copy their toons to the PvMP server and the PvMP population will be concentrated and then have a larger pool of data to test balance.

    YES, I know that this sounds NON-PC, but the main issue that I see is that PvMP and PVE have TWO entirely different skill sets and goals.
    Took from another thread. Sounds good for me: servers for pve and server(s) for pvp but maybe too late or too much complicated to do.

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Wales, United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,625
    I'm not into the PvMP thing and haven't been for years. That said, I've always been supportive of our PvMP community when they have made requests, because, hey, their game is just as important as anyone else's.

    Lately though, even I can't deny, that from where I'm sitting, it seems to be that some decisions are being pushed unfavourably into PvE, for the sake of PvMP.

    As a result, I personally hope they don't introduce PvMP onto the legendary servers, and also because of all the drama that always comes with it.

    I think a PvMP server would be a great option though, where it's fully independent and where they can balance it as much as they want, including all the classes playing on it, without it breaking the non PvMP game.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    991
    Quote Originally Posted by trichard2 View Post
    Took from another thread. Sounds good for me: servers for pve and server(s) for pvp but maybe too late or too much complicated to do.
    Most games I have played do it that way. Most of us would have no problem with a seperate server, but I dunno if they ever actually change them different from one another. However, if they were to revamp the world for that purpose I would even be willing to put more into the game outside of the lifetime I have.
    .
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload