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  1. #1
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    What are the seven houses of the Dwarves?

    Hi,

    We all know there were seven dwarvish Rings of Power. I wonder what were the seven dwarvish houses which had them.

    So far we met three of them in the game (or possibly four - keep reading). Longbeards, Zhelruka and Firehorns (aka Stout-axes - the dwarves we met in Mordor).

    I've done some lore-wised research and according to Tolkien's wiki the seven houses are: Longbeards, Firebeards, Broadbeams, Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots.

    Blacklocks and Stonefoots are suppose to be from "the moutains to the East", so I guess Zhelrukas are one of them.

    Ironfists and Stiffbeards are suppose to live "far to the East", so let's presume Firehorns are one of them.

    Now it gets interesting. :-) Considering Dourhands: Firebeards and Broadbeams were the dwarves originated in Ered-Luin and since we met Dourhands quite early in the game in Ered-Luin I think Dourhands might be actually one of the seven houses! Firebeards and Broadbeams' halls were in Nogrod and Belegost. In Silmarilion there is a part about Nogrod dwarves being defeated by Ossiriand elves, so I guess they don't share the love for the Free people. Hence the Douhands' hatred towards them (and especially towards Longbeards because they kinda took their original homeland).

    What do you think?

  2. #2
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    The names Tolkien gave in a posthumously published document (in The Peoples of Middle-earth, 12th and last volume of the History of Middle-earth series edited by Christopher Tolkien) falls outside the license used for LOTRO, so the devs have to invent other names for the Dwarven houses.

    Landroval: Kibilturg (Watchers of Elendil); Taurunion, Erohtar (Taters and Traders)
    Crickhollow: Kibilturg (Tarciryan Knights); Zigilturg (Forever Notorious); Nuncle (Casual Wanderers)

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    Hi,
    Now it gets interesting. :-) Considering Dourhands: Firebeards and Broadbeams were the dwarves originated in Ered-Luin and since we met Dourhands quite early in the game in Ered-Luin I think Dourhands might be actually one of the seven houses! Firebeards and Broadbeams' halls were in Nogrod and Belegost. In Silmarilion there is a part about Nogrod dwarves being defeated by Ossiriand elves, so I guess they don't share the love for the Free people. Hence the Douhands' hatred towards them (and especially towards Longbeards because they kinda took their original homeland).

    What do you think?
    I think the Firebeards and Broadbeams still have their halls in Ered Luin, and that the game is wrong about Thorin ever ruling anything in Ered Luin. Instead the fugitives from the Lonely Mountain took refuge and lived in exile among the Firebeards and/or Broadbeams who were traditionally friends and allies of the Longbeards.

    The Dourhands are not one of the original houses. All the seven houses still exist and go by their own names.
    Most likely the Dourhands are a mix of several of the seven houses who split off to form their own clan for some unknown reason. (The dourhands are an invention of Turbine/SSG who apparently wanted some evil dwarves for story purposes, but who never bothered making up their whole history as far as I know.)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    The game is wrong about Thorin ever ruling anything in Ered Luin.
    I'm pretty sure Thorin Oakenshield did rule in Ered Luin, at least at his own halls. Firebeards and Broadbeams were scattered after battle of Thangorodrim when the north-west of the Middle-Earth (Lindon) was almost entirely destroyed, together with Nogrod and Belegost. They left Ered-Luin and they lived among Longbeards in Moria. I guess, some of them might not want to leave and they parted from their kins. They found a new leader (Dourhand) and they stayed in Ered-Luin, remembering their deminished fame, becoming bitter and... evil.

    Well, I agree that Dourhands are propably not one of the seven great houses, but I believe they are somehow related to Firebeards and/or Broadbeams.

    Short note about Longbeards in Ered-Luin: after Smaug's attack on Erebor, Thror and his kins went to Enedwaith (remember Thror's Coomb, right?), later Thorin left and he settled in Ered-Luin.
    Last edited by Enthrone; Nov 05 2018 at 08:28 AM.

  5. #5
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    I think <...> that the game is wrong about Thorin ever ruling anything in Ered Luin. Instead the fugitives from the Lonely Mountain took refuge and lived in exile among the Firebeards and/or Broadbeams who were traditionally friends and allies of the Longbeards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    I'm pretty sure Thorin Oakenshield did rule in Ered Luin, at least at his own halls.
    So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune.

    The Lord of the Rings. Appendix A: Annals of the Kings and Rulers. III Durin's Folk.


    Gandalf looked at him with wonder. ‘That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield,’ he said. ‘For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls.’

    ‘Call them so, if you will,’ said Thorin. ‘They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come

    ibid.

    .

    Landroval: Kibilturg (Watchers of Elendil); Taurunion, Erohtar (Taters and Traders)
    Crickhollow: Kibilturg (Tarciryan Knights); Zigilturg (Forever Notorious); Nuncle (Casual Wanderers)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    I think the Firebeards and Broadbeams still have their halls in Ered Luin, and that the game is wrong about Thorin ever ruling anything in Ered Luin. Instead the fugitives from the Lonely Mountain took refuge and lived in exile among the Firebeards and/or Broadbeams who were traditionally friends and allies of the Longbeards.
    if you search a bit you ll find out that you r all wrong about the game being wrong about Thorin ruling Ered luin. Thats because Thorin was from the line of the 1st born Dwarf and all the other fathers recognize him as the high king of them.
    Longbeards were called Durin's folk for a reason! The refuges from Erebor moved from Thror's coomp to Ered Luin n mixed with the dwarfes living there. We dont know if the Doorhands are descandents of the Firebeards or the Broadbeams

    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    The Dourhands are not one of the original houses. All the seven houses still exist and go by their own names.
    Most likely the Dourhands are a mix of several of the seven houses who split off to form their own clan for some unknown reason. (The dourhands are an invention of Turbine/SSG who apparently wanted some evil dwarves for story purposes, but who never bothered making up their whole history as far as I know.)
    wrong again the originals houses r not exist as they were in the begining!
    in the 3rd age the name Durin's folk was used for all the dwarfs, since they were mixed most of them
    But there were tribes that lived eastern but not that far! the ironfists: their origin was the Orocarni Mountains not far east from Ironhills
    if you believe that the Zelruga has to do with the ironfists or one of the other 3 dwarf tribes in the east i d say why not
    after the destruction of the grey Mountain citadels n the death of high king Dain I n his 2nd son Fror, his 1st son, Thror become king under the mountain in Erebor n his 3rd son, Gror become king of the Longbeards n Ironfists at the iron hills
    which were used for mining long ago by the Longbeards. Dain II ironfoot was Gror's grand son!
    you r right about the dourhands being invented by turbine ofc with a reason! Tolkien had mentioned dwarves in the service of the dark lords.
    now....... in game we see the Zelruga demanding Grey mountains as their home so if you think about this they have to be from the Longbeard clan n not from the Ironfists
    20 years lotr enthousiast, 11 years lotro player, lifetimer, Loyal member of the Spartans Kinship, now in Evernight imigrants from Eldar

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Urwendil View Post
    The names Tolkien gave in [...] last volume of the History of Middle-earth [...] falls outside the license used for LOTRO, so the devs have to invent other names [...].
    The paraphrased comment above, made by Urwendil, isn't being sufficiently considered here. By the terms of the license that Tolkien signed any material mentioned in the LotR or Hobbit is usable. However, material that is mentioned in other books is specifically excluded. So Turbine SSG is probably well aware of all of the official names of the seven houses of the dwarves - they just cannot use them. It's material that was not mentioned in the LotR or Hobbit books specifically and any use of that material would cause the Tolkien Estate to file suite against SSG.

    If SSG is only going to get sued if they use unlicensed material - no matter how much it allows them to be true to canon - what is the point of using it?

  8. #8
    According to this thread, Zhélruka means "Iron Hand" which makes them probably as close as LOTRO can get to the Ironfist dwarves.

    Someone showed me a screenshot of the Stout-axes being called Stiffbeards in early beta. Has anyone else noticed that? I am surprised such a restricted name would be used even in beta.

    To make LOTRO's dwarves fit the lore that the game doesn't have the rights to, I would say that the Dourhands are a faction of exiled Firebeards and/or Broadbeams and that the Firehorns AKA Stout-axes are the ruling faction of the Stiffbeards. Both those houses have been severely fractured and depleted. The Zhélruka are the Ironfists and have also suffered, but like the Longbeards, they maintain their identity as one House. That's my interpretation, anyway.

    What I don't get is why the Dourhands and Firehorns have Northman-like (Norse) names, like the Longbeards do, since they do not live in Rhovanion.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnagerwine View Post
    What I don't get is why the Dourhands and Firehorns have Northman-like (Norse) names, like the Longbeards do, since they do not live in Rhovanion.
    Tolkien explained this...

    "...it is according to the nature of the Dwarves that traveling, and laboring, and trading about the world they should use ever openly the languages of the Men among whom they dwell; and yet in secret (a secret which unlike the Elves they are unwilling to unlock even to those whom they know are friends and desire learning not power) they use a strange slow-changing tongue. Little is known about it. So it is that here such Dwarves as appear have names of the same Northern kind as the Men of Dale that dwelt round about, and speak the Common Speech, now in this manner now in that; and only in a few names do we get any glimpse of their hidden tongue."
    - The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME series, pg 21-22

    "...So it was that the Northern Dwarves, the people of Thorin and Dain, had names drawn from the northern language of the Men of Dale, and their secret names are not known to us."
    -pg 35

    Tolkien never named any specific Dwarves outside of the Longbeard clan, so the developers probably followed the same naming patterns that Tolkien laid down when they created all the new Dwarves.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Thronr View Post
    Tolkien explained this...

    Tolkien never named any specific Dwarves outside of the Longbeard clan, so the developers probably followed the same naming patterns that Tolkien laid down when they created all the new Dwarves.
    If you mean in Hobbit or LOTR, that's true.
    In some other books that SSG/LOTRO cannot use directly, JRRT did name a few other dwarves that were not Longbeards.

    Aragorn's sword Anduril was originally forged as Narsil in the First Age by a dwarf of Nogrod called Telchar.
    There were the "petty dwarves" of Beleriand in the First Age, named Mim, Ibun and Khim who had encounters with Turin and Hurin.
    A dwarf of Belegost named Azaghâl died while fighting and badly wounding the dragon Glaurung in the First Age.
    There might be a couple of others I can't think of at the moment.

    We know that the two clans from the Blue Mountains were the Broadbeams and the Firebeards, but JRRT didn't specify which clan founded Nogrod and which one founded Belegost.
    Therina - Hobbit Guard Rongo - Hobbit Warden
    Frood - Man Minstrel Garmun - Man Captain
    Zorosi - Dwarf Champ Froodaroon - Elf Hunter
    Southern Defenders - Arkenstone (formerly Elendilmir)

  11. #11
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    The Houses of Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Bashful, Sneezy, Dopey, and Doc.
    It is logical, in view of the times in which we live. But to be logical is not to be right, and nothing on God's earth could ever make it right!
    - Judge Dan Haywood

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raymore View Post
    The Houses of Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Bashful, Sneezy, Dopey, and Doc.
    Or, in the common speech, Anger, Pride, Sloth, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, and Greed.

 

 

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