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Thread: Beorning Revamp

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    the most knowledgeable people should continue to post feedback for the highest chance of getting the changes we want.
    I am giving up here simply because we are being ignored.

    There is very little correlation between the changes Vastin is planning to implement and the feedback we have given. As a community we've given way more feedback than just saying "redline damage is a bit low" but that's where all his focus seems to be. The heavy armour change was not done to improve balance (in fact it does the opposite by making the most durable healer even harder to kill), it was done to make itemisation easier on the devs. The composure change reveals just how out of touch Vastin is with the Beorning, that skill is primarily used in a rotation for it's wrath generation, not its heal. Halving the healing output on composure would have achieved the same result without making the most frustrating part of the rotation even worse. The sacrifice change was a pretty random buff to yellow, fairly meaningless to every other line and this change totally overlooked the main complaint people have given regarding sacrifice (that it bugs out and cancels after 12s rather than reaching the full 20).

    I think myself and Morphails did a pretty darn good job of going through the entire class and laying out all of its shortages in copious detail. We took great care to avoid inserting any bias into those threads and simply tried to report on things as they are rather than shoehorning in what we would like to see. Amongst the community those threads seem to be pretty well regarded as a good summary of the issues present. I just don't see the feedback given in those posts reflected at all in Vastin's changes.
    ~ I tried, if you want to see class balance work it's down to you to advocate for it now ~

  2. #352
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    Don't give up yet, as the bullroarer release notes said three times the beorning changes are not done yet, the ones we see here are not final or even a complete set of what is being planned for the update.
    We need all of the experienced beorning players to keep putting in the bugs here otherwise its just the casual players that test and don't even see the the obvious ones.

  3. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, Vastin here!


    [*] I don't think you're going to be getting block. Just sayin.


    -Vastin
    Remove block rating from heavy equip then
    <img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000001c10a2/01008/signature.png'></img>

  4. #354
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    All good news! (Except heavy armour and no block)

    But Vastin, can you add yourself to the dev tracker? It would be nice to see at a glance when you post these big updates.
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone & Landroval

  5. #355
    It's not a big thing, but please, can you fix or updated the bears first legs? It's too long!


    https://ibb.co/kmVhVPr
    Last edited by AaylaKheledlire; Dec 05 2018 at 04:33 PM.

  6. #356
    Wrath generation does need improving now that composure has gone on a longer cooldown. But i won't be sorry to be using Composure less with its long animation time.

    Compensate elsewhere with some extra Wrath generation or reduce wrath costs.

    New legacy... reduces all wrath costs by 50% at max rank.

  7. #357
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    Composure won't be worth traiting if you are in a group with a healer of any kind (though it would still be good for solo PvE play). I say just remove Composure from the red tree and make it a BLUE tree specialization bonus.

  8. #358
    i dont think composure will be essential for wrath generation anymore since there is no wrath decay in bear form it will be easier to maintain wrath, at least for lanscape. And with new slash we will compensate that wrath lose. last time i checked it was really a fast skill on bear form . getting hearten cd back to 14 sec is really good for yellow

  9. #359
    All melee beornings skills in BEAR form mainly has 5m range (not less), but Expose (and with new updates its also Slash) hits on 2,5m in man AND in bear form. Also we have another man/bear melee skill Vicious Claws and when you enter bear form its change from 2,5m to 5m range. Would be nice if all melee man/bear skills (Expose and Slash in that moment) will do the same cause its more comfortable to play.

  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Originally block was strictly for shield-using builds/classes. At some point it was kludged into some 2-handed builds for reasons lost to time. [...] As for why beornings aren't going to get it, it's partially a thematic decision, but moreso a technical one. Jamming block into a non-shield class raises a bunch of annoying technical issues - also none of their existing skills synergizes with it at all, so it would effectively mess with your evasion procs like counter-attack.
    Champions of an earlier age could use shields when they were feeling tanky; then they lost that lore and eventually figured out how to use big swords and axes defensively instead. Maybe someday they will use shields again, as part of another de-kludgening, because consistent game mechanics are good for players and developers. (And shield cosmetics are pretty amazing now.)

  11. #361
    Since you guys are messing with wrath generation and red line can not longer use composure to generate wrath efficiently can we maybe make Bee Swarm a free to cast wrath builder over time?

  12. #362

    bears and champs block??

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraushgrish2 View Post
    Cool. Mind if I ask, what is the reason that classes like champ and bears can’t get block?
    Have you ever seen a bear tote a shield? and champs are intended to be a pure dps class. This is why champs have the ability to dual wield swords and do fantastic AOE damage. Block in my mind says shield, a bear shouldn't need block to rend it's foes to bits or completely tick it off if they are granted to ability to tank. I am not entirely sure why Devs think Bear needs heavy armor but I suppose, if Beorning is starting a fight in man form then swapping to Bear heavy would be better for him or her. Not trying to be snarky here in this reply but if it comes out that way I do apologize.

  13. #363
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    Wargs can block

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caenthir View Post
    i dont think composure will be essential for wrath generation anymore since there is no wrath decay in bear form it will be easier to maintain wrath, at least for lanscape. And with new slash we will compensate that wrath lose. last time i checked it was really a fast skill on bear form . getting hearten cd back to 14 sec is really good for yellow
    What new slash? Where was that mentioned? Apparently I missed something important. BTW, Wrath decay is still present as of 12/6/18, on Bullroarer. I just left there.

  15. #365
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    I don't understand why people want block - with heavy armor beorning will have one of the highest phys mitigation % in the game - that should be more than enough to be a relevant tank.

    What would be much more important are panic skills like NS, warriors heart, last stand etc.
    Atm beorning just has a bad version of NS although with much smaller cooldown.

    EDIT: forgot about thickened hide, that one is pretty good so tank beorning should be fine.
    Last edited by Blato; Dec 06 2018 at 06:36 AM.
    Ishlan R13 WL
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    Blato (Mini), Shilan (Ward), Sahlin (Beorn), Grobnir (Guard), Hergis (RK), Ishlun (Capt)

  16. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Blato View Post
    I don't understand why people want block - with heavy armor beorning will have one of the highest phys mitigation % in the game - that should be more than enough to be a relevant tank.

    What would be much more important are panic skills like NS, warriors heart, last stand etc.
    Atm beorning just has a bad version of NS although with much smaller cooldown.

    EDIT: forgot about thickened hide, that one is pretty good so tank beorning should be fine.
    Because if bears never have block they wil lalways be the lesser tank due to taking much higher damge over all due to having only 2 out of 3 of the bpe mechanics period.
    Think about it really yo utake a hit yo umitigate some of it then you block parry or evade chance is tested and then partials tested and yo utake the rest beaornings take the hit mitigate some and then no block no pblock partial and then the rest of the avoidances and partials, leaving you with a bigger hit, with the sorry state of the self heals and no real panic skills it leaves you a power sponge to healers and the lesser tank.

    The entire problem is the game is designed a specific way to mitigate then use avoidances to lower damage always has always will[non avoidance mechanics aside] so leaving the worst designed tank without the same mechanics as every other tank is not solving the problem that no one wants a bear tank at 120.

  17. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Blato View Post
    I don't understand why people want block - with heavy armor beorning will have one of the highest phys mitigation % in the game - that should be more than enough to be a relevant tank.

    What would be much more important are panic skills like NS, warriors heart, last stand etc.
    Atm beorning just has a bad version of NS although with much smaller cooldown.

    EDIT: forgot about thickened hide, that one is pretty good so tank beorning should be fine.
    I agree. block really isnt worth the hassle.
    Block or not, beornings still have the smallest amount of avoidance, because all other tanks besides champ get avoidance bonussses.
    If COUNTER was a permanent effect instead of 50% uptime, the avoidance gap would be nearly nullified and everything was nice. though, counterattack should give less wrath because its just too good for wrath generation even now and would be ridiculous with permanent counter.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  18. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by slicewalker View Post
    Because if bears never have block they wil lalways be the lesser tank due to taking much higher damge over all due to having only 2 out of 3 of the bpe mechanics period.
    Think about it really yo utake a hit yo umitigate some of it then you block parry or evade chance is tested and then partials tested and yo utake the rest beaornings take the hit mitigate some and then no block no pblock partial and then the rest of the avoidances and partials, leaving you with a bigger hit, with the sorry state of the self heals and no real panic skills it leaves you a power sponge to healers and the lesser tank.

    The entire problem is the game is designed a specific way to mitigate then use avoidances to lower damage always has always will[non avoidance mechanics aside] so leaving the worst designed tank without the same mechanics as every other tank is not solving the problem that no one wants a bear tank at 120.
    a fully mitigated bear will take 17% less phys dmg than fully mitigated guard before bpes. this goes WAY up with cappy pet mits and other mit % buffs.

    a fully mitigated bear will take 32% less dmg than a fully mitigated cappy before Bpes. this goes WAY up if bear had cappy pet mits and other mit % buffs.

    let's not talk bout warden.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Dec 06 2018 at 09:45 AM.

  19. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    a fully mitigated bear will take 17% less phys dmg than fully mitigated guard before bpes. this goes WAY up with cappy pet mits and other mit % buffs.

    a fully mitigated bear will take 32% less dmg than a fully mitigated cappy before Bpes. this goes WAY up if bear had cappy pet mits and other mit % buffs.

    let's not talk bout warden.
    And still you gonna see bear taking way more total damage because so low base Parry/Evade. So beorning will need to slot mits, finesse and Parry/Evade. Phys mit difference compared to guardian will be like 5 essences already because guardian shield. So how much you have slots left after that? Gotta slot some finesse to make taunts work, then slot avoidance and you dont have even enough slots, where your morale is after that?

    At 115 it was pointless to slot parry/evade for beorning, even if you slotted some, you was still taking tons of damage. So beorning will continue to be a healsink, only if there is some boss fight where damage is mostly tactical, beorning may got a spot. Then again how many is willing to gear beorning for tanking if it's just some random fight where you may get a spot. Thats right. Nobody will waste resources for that.

    Only in fights like Fingar beorning would have edge over guardian and I hope we will not see again fights like Fingar. It's just totally stupid mechanics that you cannot BPE.
    Last edited by JiiPee; Dec 06 2018 at 02:28 PM.

  20. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by JiiPee View Post
    Gotta slot some finesse to make taunts work, then slot avoidance and you dont have even enough slots, where your morale is after that?
    Taunts cannot be resisted. Only exception I know is Grave Wound because it's an added effect to an attack which is tied to a successful hit.
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

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  21. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    Taunts cannot be resisted. Only exception I know is Grave Wound because it's an added effect to an attack which is tied to a successful hit.
    Beorning taunts can, sadly. I'm not sure about thunderous roar, but if you don't trait it and it's single target taunt and have range, it gets resisted all a time with low finesse. Also I think biting edge can get BPE also because it works same way like grave wound. In fact all beorning taunts have damage element in them so it may be that they actually all can be resisted or BPE. They are not like guardian taunts what are only taunts.

  22. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    Taunts cannot be resisted. Only exception I know is Grave Wound because it's an added effect to an attack which is tied to a successful hit.
    Unfortunately Beornings' can be resisted because they are also tied to a hit.

  23. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by JiiPee View Post
    And still you gonna see bear taking way more total damage because so low base Parry/Evade. So beorning will need to slot mits, finesse and Parry/Evade. Phys mit difference compared to guardian will be like 5 essences already because guardian shield. So how much you have slots left after that? Gotta slot some finesse to make taunts work, then slot avoidance and you dont have even enough slots, where your morale is after that?

    At 115 it was pointless to slot parry/evade for beorning, even if you slotted some, you was still taking tons of damage. So beorning will continue to be a healsink, only if there is some boss fight where damage is mostly tactical, beorning may got a spot. Then again how many is willing to gear beorning for tanking if it's just some random fight where you may get a spot. Thats right. Nobody will waste resources for that.

    Only in fights like Fingar beorning would have edge over guardian and I hope we will not see again fights like Fingar. It's just totally stupid mechanics that you cannot BPE.

    I am unfamiliar with beorning tanking. isn't the bear able to gain significant armor from bear form and morale as well? 30% of a heavy armoured bear will go a long way in making up for armor from shield. and 20% morale is nothing to scoff at. bear also gets 5 morale per vit while other heavies (not sure about guard) get 4.5 morale per vit. so they should also have a morale advantage over guards at least.

    I'm not home so I have no idea what range bear and guards bpes are in to calculate dmg reduction. nor do I recall in what order mit reduction and bpes work, or if the range of hits is the same on npcs as it is on characters ( for example, the average non crit skill on champ does 65% of tooltip max dmg.)

  24. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I am unfamiliar with beorning tanking. isn't the bear able to gain significant armor from bear form and morale as well? 30% of a heavy armoured bear will go a long way in making up for armor from shield. and 20% morale is nothing to scoff at. bear also gets 5 morale per vit while other heavies (not sure about guard) get 4.5 morale per vit. so they should also have a morale advantage over guards at least.

    I'm not home so I have no idea what range bear and guards bpes are in to calculate dmg reduction. nor do I recall in what order mit reduction and bpes work, or if the range of hits is the same on npcs as it is on characters ( for example, the average non crit skill on champ does 65% of tooltip max dmg.)
    you are right. bears will have a meaningful phys-mit and morale advantage and a meaningful avoidance disadvantage.
    For bossfights, avoidance is close to irrelevant, so there, beornings might end up being the best choice for tanks.
    For trashfights, lots of damage can be avoided, so warden/guard are the better choice here.
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  25. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by AprilDawn View Post
    and champs are intended to be a pure dps class.
    Actually, Champions have always had the ability to tank; they could carry heavy shields until Rise of Isengard. With RoI, their tanking mechanic changed to bubbles and stances. Clearly Saruman's sorcery is to blame for Champions losing their shield lore.

 

 
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