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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    That is the whole problem, what did you want to balance for, Casual vs. RadingKins.
    Lotro is obiusly not the only title that has this Problem. Games like League of Legends have this to, they need to balance for the pro Esports Scene, but also for the non pro majority of players (which make more then 99% of the player Population).
    Its hard to find the balance, but you need to find balance and should not risk, that one end of the spectrum becomes way to powerful.

    As i sayd already, champ needs work, but its need to be done carefully.
    Lets all give them our feedback then and start pushing the situation.I agree it must be carefully but some changes need to be done NOW for this raid cause from the 4 bosses the 3 are for single target and not to next update cause probably for many of us will be to late.
    When i learn that an expansion will come soon before 2-3 years i wouldn't even think about not to buying it but after of what i been through since Mordor beleave me i am thinking a lot if i continue or not cause i am real afraid to deal with a new Abyss if you know what i mean so i dont want to loose money and be so frustrated again.If i dont see any changes till then i wont buy and i bealive many other champions will not also.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Thats not really true, on training dummies hunters and champion dps is fairly equal.
    You just need to take a look how massive the champion damage increases if you have a beo or warden in the group.

    A little example, we did ID1 with no Beo or Warden.
    I did around 130-140k dps.
    After that, we switch in a BeoHeal and i reached 160-190k. That damage increase came just from -15% physical mitigations (the debuff was not 100% up).
    Imagen now you would get the insane fire mitigation debuff from LM + Rk, what would be my damage 250k?, obviously i can't test how strong firetype damage on champions woul be, i bet it would be to strong.

    I would much more prefer other solutions like debuffs where every one equally benefits from. Because if you nust would add fire damage scrolls, wardens will be even more behind then they currently are are in terms of dps.

    I would like to see the Devastating Strike Buff increased in potency and lenght. Make it +15-+20% incoming mele Damage for 12sec. So you can keap the debuff 100% of the time up on one target. This way the champions own dps would go up by around 8-15% and we would increase Burglars, Warden, Captains, Beo and Guardian DPs also by an equal amount. This change would make more mele oriented Raid/Group setups more appealing to play.
    All right, I admit that I'm in awe of your exploits. You're extremely skilled, or at least much better than I --and than any Champion that I know.

    I don't use combat analysis, but I can do some basic maths. If I take 50 seconds to kill a scourge form the Skarhald dailies with 2.2 million morale, that puts me around 40-50 K dps. That is well under average Hunter dps, even if my gear is above average.

    Then again, you could be right that a fire scroll might not be the best solution and that we have to consider all kinds of players, those who can perform like you, who would be overpowered, and those (many more) who are more casual like me. But that's just what I'm complaining. More casual players aren't being considered at all and that's why we can't find spots at end game. I mean casual Champion players. Casual Hunters and casual RKs have no problem at all. That's why I'm asking for a more balanced situation of the dps toons!

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    All right, I admit that I'm in awe of your exploits. You're extremely skilled, or at least much better than I --and than any Champion that I know.

    I don't use combat analysis, but I can do some basic maths. If I take 50 seconds to kill a scourge form the Skarhald dailies with 2.2 million morale, that puts me around 40-50 K dps. That is well under average Hunter dps, even if my gear is above average.
    I talked about that they are equal on training dummys,
    The scourge with 2,2 million Moral is a Troll, Trolls are weak against Fire damage, Hunters deal mostly fire damage.
    Also the Hunters burst is much higher then the burst of the champion.
    Thats why you need test such things in a neutral Situation, over a longer period of time. To get "real" numbers.

    What exploits are you talking about, just because you don't understand something it does not mean its an exploit...
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  4. #79
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    In my opinion it is simply wrong to balance a class/game about weak players.
    You need to balance it around the best of the best.

    And just because of people like arandour and others arent able to do good dps on champ doesnt mean its not possible.
    Got nothing to do with exploiting aswell.
    Red champ is in the best state since lv 75/85,even better then during throne.
    Be a bit happy about that.

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    In my opinion it is simply wrong to balance a class/game about weak players.
    You need to balance it around the best of the best.

    And just because of people like arandour and others arent able to do good dps on champ doesnt mean its not possible.
    Got nothing to do with exploiting aswell.
    Red champ is in the best state since lv 75/85,even better than during throne.
    Be a bit happy about that.
    99% agree with your last Statment (Im super happy currently but i still hope that work on melee classes will be done, to bring them into an equal state as ranged),
    but just partially with your first Statement.

    It should be balanced around the higher levels, yes.
    But DeV's should also keep an eye on the gap between casual and Top players, if its gets too big something should be changed.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    In my opinion it is simply wrong to balance a class/game about weak players.
    You need to balance it around the best of the best.

    And just because of people like arandour and others arent able to do good dps on champ doesnt mean its not possible.
    Got nothing to do with exploiting aswell.
    Red champ is in the best state since lv 75/85,even better then during throne.
    Be a bit happy about that.
    The think that you dont understand is that the best of the best have the best of the best support in game thats why mostly they do big numbers and to find the best support possible to a casual raiding kin or even to a hard core raiding kin its very rare.
    Many hard core raiding kins have champions that cannot even imagine doing the numbers that Gertes doing why?Cause usually they dont have the players/classes to provide the support that needed for a champ to do big numbers.That become even worst to a casual raiding kin.On the other hand its mach more easy to find a good LM and a good Cpt into a kin than a good Beorn so the ranged still have the advantage.
    So in my opinion i insist to fire damage scrolls and i beleave it would be great solution and yes it will bring balance in most cases between hard core raiding kins and casual raiding kins.Its a solution that not only champions can benefit from but every other melee class that can put fire damage to their weapons as well.Burglars,wardens,cpts,beo rnings everyone will do a bit more dps so the situation of "we dont have enough dps lets change the champion with another range dps" will finally stop.
    Gertes is 99% happy but the 99% of champions are not so i dont think that individual skill its only that that makes the difference.
    Last edited by Arandour; Feb 24 2019 at 12:14 PM.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    The think that you dont understand is that the best of the best have the best of the best support in game thats why mostly they do big numbers and to find the best support possible to a casual raiding kin or even to a hard core raiding kin its very rare.
    Many hard core raiding kins have champions that cannot even imagine doing the numbers that Gertes doing why?Cause usually they dont have the players/classes to provide the support that needed for a champ to do big numbers.That become even worst to a casual raiding kin.On the other hand its mach more easy to find a good LM and a good Cpt into a kin than a good Beorn so the ranged still have the advantage.
    So in my opinion i insist to fire damage scrolls and i beleave it would be great solution and yes it will bring balance in most cases between hard core raiding kins and casual raiding kins.Its a solution that not only champions can benefit from but every other melee class that can put fire damage to their weapons as well.Burglars,wardens,cpts,beo rnings everyone will do a bit more dps so the situation of "we dont have enough dps lets change the champion with another range dps" will finally stop.
    Gertes is 99% happy but the 99% of champions are not so i dont think that individual skill its only that that makes the difference.
    People with bad players and casual support/dps whatever should stick to t1.
    If you wanna do t2 you need to improve and t3 is for the best of the best.
    This game is nothing hard,this is no E-sports or anything special.

    And about "hardcore" raid kins (something that doesnt excist in my opinion anymore in this game):The top 5 raid kins(portal,limit,odyssey,avor thalier usw) are easy able to include 1 champion everywhere on T3. why? because they got 12 decent players (you dont even need 12 good players, just no casuals to get carried). it is really no rocket science!´

    Edit:Fire dmg for melee is a total fail idea in my opinion!
    Last edited by Arkadien; Feb 24 2019 at 12:31 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    What exploits are you talking about, just because you don't understand something it does not mean its an exploit...
    OK, you might be more skilled at playing a LOTRO toon, but apparently I'm better with English.

    Exploit: a notable deed or feat, esp one that is noble or heroic. From the Colins English dictionary.

    Yes, there are other more negative meanings of the word, but that's not what I meant, as can be deduced from the context.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Ok hunters are doing more damage than we do easily with out even have to use fire damage to their bows right?When they use it in a group with good LM they gain a 10-15% and they reach almost fire rks damage so they can stand decently.The same thing will happens with as.
    If they give to champions fire type then the gap between the dps classes will be close but champions will not be op for single target,they will still do less dps than those classes cause the damage output is already lower than those.They will do more only if the champion is very good and the support is for his favor and that thing is rare to happen.Our AOE is already top anyway with the rks to be close to as so will not make any difference to the balance off the classes.
    The good thing tho in that situations is that we can benefit from fire and if the group dont have so good support for the melees then a good champion with fire damage weapons will do the same or almost the same damage with the hunters so there will be no reason if the dps is not enough cause of a bad support or not melee support at all for replacing him with another range class for closing the gap and manage to kill a boss.Many times they replace a champion in a group cause of that 10/15% difference.A fire damage scroll will solve that problem cause you can find more easily a LM to a group than a Beorning and more rare to find an experienced beorning that will help the melee classes.
    Most of the instances want us to go single target so in my opinion they have 3 options,first option they give as fire type damage,second option they boost at least 10-15% our single target dps output or third they stop doing melee aoe unfriendly instances.
    Sorry guys but i dont see any other way.
    Thats not how increase from mitigation debuffs works.LM buffs fire DPS by 40% with raven alone 60% with raven and tar + other buffs.
    -20% fire mitigation from raven is flat out 40% DPS increase it is stronger than OB with 100% uptime for RKs/Hunters.Now if champ with proper support reaches lets say 130k dps and hunters/rks do 160k with 0 mits and champ still missing 20% mitigation that gets removed by raven for example their dps becomes 182k.But in reality it would be bigger increase than this esp on AoE.So you cant just slap fire dmg type to melee even if it seems like an easy fix.And as soon as devs realise how mitigation debuffs afects DPS they will nerf it.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    In my opinion it is simply wrong to balance a class/game about weak players.
    You need to balance it around the best of the best.
    Well, in my opinion you are wrong. That doesn't prove that I'm right, of course, the same as your opinion doesn't prove anything.

    What we need here is an objective way of comparing classes, not the personal opinion of any player, perhaps biased by personal preference.

    And I offer this objective way of comparing dps classes:

    If we observe the groups for a raid at end game we will see that a very high percentage of the groups will have no Champion by considered choice of the raid leader. The raid leader will have no specific hatred towards Champions, but he just uses common sense: he'll want the raid to be completed, he knows the best dps classes, and he knows that the Champion is not among them.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    People with bad players and casual support/dps whatever should stick to t1.
    If you wanna do t2 you need to improve and t3 is for the best of the best.
    This game is nothing hard,this is no E-sports or anything special.

    And about "hardcore" raid kins (something that doesnt excist in my opinion anymore in this game):The top 5 raid kins(portal,limit,odyssey,avor thalier usw) are easy able to include 1 champion everywhere on T3. why? because they got 12 decent players (you dont even need 12 good players, just no casuals to get carried). it is really no rocket science!´

    Edit:Fire dmg for melee is a total fail idea in my opinion!
    Another thing that you dont understand is that i dont want anyone to think that can carry me just because now they done it and its easy for them cause they know the tactics well i want to be useful from the start and to be part of the progression runs.Ask Odyssey or other raiding kins after how many runs and how many full clears they decide to get a champion in with them.
    From all those kins that you mention only Avorthalier had champion from the start till the end when they clear first time T3 some of them had not at all and some others they only bring for second or for 4rh boss.Check the screenshots and you will understand of what i am talking about.
    For example i got the Abyss title too with my champ but that happen after long time when the groups was knowing exactly what to do in there everyone was very well geared so was no problem at all to "carry" a champion there.Till then i was playing only range classes my alts.Sorry but i dont like that at all i want when a raid leader fixing a group at least a champion always to have spot in there because he is useful and not from charity and this to happen need changes to our dps and to how melee friendly the instances designed.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    People with bad players and casual support/dps whatever should stick to t1.
    If you wanna do t2 you need to improve and t3 is for the best of the best.
    This game is nothing hard,this is no E-sports or anything special.!
    The question is that for Champions it is very hard, while it is very esy for the other dps classes.

    Is it so difficult to understand what I'm saying?

    An average Hunter (or RK) with worse gear and similar skill than an average Champion will deal something around 50% more damage.

    I call this situation unbalanced and I would ask for it to be changed.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    The question is that for Champions it is very hard, while it is very esy for the other dps classes.

    Is it so difficult to understand what I'm saying?

    An average Hunter (or RK) with worse gear and similar skill than an average Champion will deal something around 50% more damage.

    I call this situation unbalanced and I would ask for it to be changed.

    how do you even know that this is true?
    i can say aswell that " An average Hunter (or RK) with worse gear and similar skill than an average Champion will deal something around 5-10% more damage.

    doesnt proof anything....

    in my opinion both are quite close.
    go into a dummy where a champ will even do more dps.
    Hunter+rk only got a little advantage when having acess to the crazy fire mit debuffs.
    Without lm/rk i would say champ does even more dps then hunter

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    how do you even know that this is true?
    i can say aswell that " An average Hunter (or RK) with worse gear and similar skill than an average Champion will deal something around 5-10% more damage.

    doesnt proof anything....

    in my opinion both are quite close.
    go into a dummy where a champ will even do more dps.
    Hunter+rk only got a little advantage when having acess to the crazy fire mit debuffs.
    Without lm/rk i would say champ does even more dps then hunter
    Dummy solo play and group play are complete different things.When i go to dummy with my champ i can be close or even do more dps from my two other range dps classes on single.(i do at least 2 hours rotations practice and swapping wepons practice with my champion per day),but when i go to the crafting instances and deal with the big bosses in there my hunter and my rk doing more dps to those bosses but my champion have better survivability.When i go for a group play and raid most of the times i dont have beorning with me or blade brother from a cpt my dps is less than my hunters or my rks.To be close need very good support that i have vary rare sometimes.
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  15. #90
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    Ok a few things;

    Everyone talking about a champion needs the right ''support''...

    In our raid team; the champion ONLY gets blade brother for trash + boss 2 fight, the rest of the raid its on a hunter. The only extra physical support we take is in the form of a bear healer (which by the way, also buffs hunters), we don't take a warden. So those of you arguing that you must completely build your raid around a champion dps are wrong, because we don't and our champion is still capable of out-dpsing our average / slightly above average RKs on boss 3, and he is roughly on par with our better RKs.

    Furthermore, if you find yourself struggling to get into a raid in the first place - you're clearly not in the right kin, or surrounding yourselves with the right group of people to do it. We get it, you want to clear raids and have fun with your friends, but if your friends aren't good enough or unwilling to take you, and if you yourself aren't good enough to be taken, don't take to the forums asking for your class to be made OP by getting fire damage.

    As has been said, you cannot balance the game around the weakest players - why? Because the better players will break the damn game. You want to give champion access to every single known mob debuff in the raid, when a good champions single-target dps is already on par with a good runekeeper, are you crazy?

    If you can't match the DPS you need to get better, and if you aren't being taken to raids you need to find a new raiding team - there is nothing drastically wrong with champion dps.

    T1 raids are for casuals. T2 raids and above are not.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Feb 24 2019 at 08:08 PM.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    The think that you dont understand is that the best of the best have the best of the best support in game thats why mostly they do big numbers and to find the best support possible to a casual raiding kin or even to a hard core raiding kin its very rare.
    Many hard core raiding kins have champions that cannot even imagine doing the numbers that Gertes doing why?Cause usually they dont have the players/classes to provide the support that needed for a champ to do big numbers.That become even worst to a casual raiding kin.On the other hand its mach more easy to find a good LM and a good Cpt into a kin than a good Beorn so the ranged still have the advantage.
    So in my opinion i insist to fire damage scrolls and i beleave it would be great solution and yes it will bring balance in most cases between hard core raiding kins and casual raiding kins.Its a solution that not only champions can benefit from but every other melee class that can put fire damage to their weapons as well.Burglars,wardens,cpts,beo rnings everyone will do a bit more dps so the situation of "we dont have enough dps lets change the champion with another range dps" will finally stop.
    Gertes is 99% happy but the 99% of champions are not so i dont think that individual skill its only that that makes the difference.
    You make it sound like it's hard to play support beorn.
    It's not, beorns have an easier time to keep up all their buffs/debuffs than loremasters (if we're considdering all the pet debuffs).

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    You want to give champion access to every single known mob debuff in the raid, when a good champions single-target dps is already on par with a good runekeeper, are you crazy?
    Ok Hunters doing more damage than we do yes?We are closer from them than we are from Rks but they do more so why they have access to every single mob debuff in the raid and we cannot have.Its the same thing right?
    With fire On single target we will get a buff of 15% and we will be decent if the group doesnt have beorning and warden etc or generaly good support to buff the champ dps the problem will be when we AOE but as i mention before there we are already in best possible position so will not effect anything.

    Anyway i am not willing to argue with anyone i am trying to give feedback for possible solutions here.If that is fire damage,boost for red line,less CD on skills like clober who can cut animations or boost for might stat cause is the weakest stat in front of what agility and will gives to hunters and Rks its not me that will decide.I just give my thoughts so the developers can test and they can do something about it but the point is to do something fast and if they dont then at least they should make first boss melee AOE friendly cause its ridiculous to have so many adds and champ have to go single.2 of 4 bosses for champion to go to his strong base setup and feel more useful i think its fair dont you agree?Also all this conversation and arguments would have been avoided if they would decide to do the instances more melee AOE friendly.And beleave me if no one was talking about this things we would probably had in our hands another Abyss right now cause i see it happening at first weeks when the raid was still at beta.
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    With fire On single target we will get a buff of 15% and we will be decent if the group doesnt have beorning and warden etc or generaly good support to buff the champ dps the problem will be when we AOE but as i mention before there we are already in best possible position so will not effect anything.
    Except the dps increase for champs if they would have fire damage would be a lot bigger than 15%.

    Stop posting numbers that are just completely false.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Ok Hunters doing more damage than we do yes?We are closer from them than we are from Rks but they do more so why they have access to every single mob debuff in the raid and we cannot have.Its the same thing right?
    With fire On single target we will get a buff of 15% and we will be decent if the group doesnt have beorning and warden etc or generaly good support to buff the champ dps the problem will be when we AOE but as i mention before there we are already in best possible position so will not effect anything.
    As mentioned already, the dps increase will be a lot bigger than 15% you are talking about things you really don't understand...

    AND as I have already stated if you aren't able to do the same ST damage as a good RK then there is a problem with you and your playstyle - we do not build our raids around our champion nor does he have blade-brother for the 3rd boss, and yet he is still on par in terms of damage as our good RKs.

  20. #95
    As stated above, not only will adding fire damage to any champion's skill break the class. It will break the game.

    If champs recieve fire damage on their skills, the original damage output needs to be lowered severily on their skills. That will only increase the gap between 'better' champs in 'better' raid groups and 'lesser' champs in 'lesser' raid groups. It will also affect their damage in something like landscape, were they don't have acces to those buffs.
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  21. #96
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    So if i dont have beorning at least to my group that he knows the class even a bit to support me and most of the times i dont ( not even mention warden that never take part to our raids now cause we dont have anyone geard and if we had our raid leader dont think that is a good idea to bring two melee classes in there so probably it will be Champion OR warden in the future not both) then better not to go in any run with my champion that need to go single,even if i do unbufed with out even food 106k+ per minute at dummy's practicing every day for 2 hours at least there while others doing other staff cause my single target is going to be doomed.At least if i have beorn in the group i can do 120/130k max at third boss (much more harder than an rk or hunter can do ofc) but if i dont have beorn to know a bit of what he is doing then i am strangling to even do 90k.Ok i got it.Probably most off the times i will be forced to play my range alts again to feel a bit more useful till something going to change ether that is buffing our single or making more aoe melee friendly raids.
    Just one last question,anyone can tell me why when i did Throne raid,Rift,Helegrod,Barad Guldur,Ost Dunhoth etc etc even Watcher i never did any complain in here all those years and i start with Abyss till now?I was better skilled champion back then?I dont think so...
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  22. #97
    While testing some stuff in Yellow today, i had an idea.
    Remember the Buff in Yellow that let you mitigate 15% mitigations from your targets?


    This Buff is obviously very powerful and helps the champ to be not so much dependent on other physical support, but sadly we just have this passive trait in yellow and only for blade skills.
    So i we would get a similar buff in redline, this could massively help (red)champs in situations where no physical support of any kind is present.

    Edit: A other solution could be changing the Horn of Gondor from an -physical mitigation to an -%physical mitigation skill.
    Last edited by Gertes; Feb 25 2019 at 08:47 AM.
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  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    While testing some stuff in Yellow today, i had an idea.
    Remember the Buff in Yellow that let you mitigate 15% mitigations from your targets?


    This Buff is obviously very powerful and helps the champ to be not so much dependent on other physical support, but saddly we just have this passive trait in yellow and only for blade skills.
    So i we would get a simmilar buff in redline, this could massively help (red)champs in situations where no physical support of any kind is present.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ne-great-again!

    and we have come full circle! :P

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    While testing some stuff in Yellow today, i had an idea.
    Remember the Buff in Yellow that let you mitigate 15% mitigations from your targets?


    This Buff is obviously very powerful and helps the champ to be not so much dependent on other physical support, but saddly we just have this passive trait in yellow and only for blade skills.
    So i we would get a simmilar buff in redline, this could massively help (red)champs in situations where no physical support of any kind is present.

    Edit: A other solutin could be changing the Horn of Gondor from an -physical mitigation to an -%physical mitigation skill.
    Great idea Gertes
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  25. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    While testing some stuff in Yellow today, i had an idea.
    Remember the Buff in Yellow that let you mitigate 15% mitigations from your targets?


    This Buff is obviously very powerful and helps the champ to be not so much dependent on other physical support, but sadly we just have this passive trait in yellow and only for blade skills.
    So i we would get a similar buff in redline, this could massively help (red)champs in situations where no physical support of any kind is present.
    Nice idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Edit: A other solution could be changing the Horn of Gondor from an -physical mitigation to an -%physical mitigation skill.
    I asked for it in old thread. But nobody care at SSG. With proper revamp leg this should be awesome.

 

 
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