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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    I’ve only skimmed through, but a lot of your responses are on the wrong track to begin with. A few things:
    -Adding a strong, non-stacking debuff skill to a class shoes that class in as a one-off support (you wind up with a single spot available for your class in any group, but you’re far outclassed by cappies and LMs for that spot.) Bad idea.
    -Buffing champ dps is also a bad solution, 5-10% is not going to magically fix everything, look at burgs.
    -increasing base mits is a bad idea unless done through stat allocations so that Tmit is gained from a stat.

    Overall, it’s not just champs either. Captains, Burgs, Guardians, Champs, wardens, and Bears are all very weak melee dps classes. The simple solution would be to outright nerf all ranged and tactical dps by probably ~50% so that there’s a trade-off for being melee dps. The main issue is that it won’t ever happen because the numerous ranged dps would outright quit over it. “If my RK isn’t doing 10 burgs/guards/bears/cappies in dps, it’s not worth playing”

    Then the exceptionally skilled ranged dps will still top out over melee, but every quest geared RK won’t do double the dps of an instance geared melee class.

    Wardens and champs are best-off at the moment regarding melee. If you think your dps and mits suck, what do you think it’s like for the other classes?
    With the outmost respect, but it's you who seem to miss the point.

    Yes, all melee classes have problems to compete in dps with ranged/tactical. But they are all in a better situation than Champions (with the partial exception of Burglars).

    Beornings can heal in all instances and tiers plus they can also tank --not sure about T3, but possibly too. Guardians and Captains can also tank in all tiers, plus Captains are always welcome as buffers too. No problem at all for these classes, they are in a very good spot.
    Wardens are as good dps as Champions and much better at tanking, although they have some legitimate complaints in this department.
    Burglars have a guaranteed spot in raids as buffers/debuffers, so in this they are much better than Champions, but they aren't really valued in 3 man instances, possibly even less than Champions.

    Champions are seen as a nuisance as dps because they occupy a spot that could be given to a ranged class, and not even considered as tanks. That's the reality. Champions are accepted often (not always) in 3 mans and 6 mans as dps, but always Hunters and RKs are prefered. None of the other melee classes are forced to compete with Hunters and RKs for a spot in an instance. They can perform other roles, but Champions' alternative role as a tank is mostly a joke, only good in 3 mans T1.

    This is a really tiresome discussion. Please, don't try to tell us that all melee classes are in the same situation. Raid leaders don't want Champions in Anvil beyond T1. For Glimmerdeep ranged are always chosen before Champions. In Caverns I have yet to finish a T2 run. In Thikil Gundu T2/T3 we aren't exactly banned, but runs without Champions are frequent, runs without Hunters/Rks are completely unheard of. All the other melee classes (with the partial exception of Burglars already mentioned) can have a spot in those instances without problems. Champions are in a horrible spot at end game, and it's made even worse when players from other classes who should support us for the sake of balance just come here to tell us that we shouldn't complain.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    With the outmost respect, but it's you who seem to miss the point.

    Yes, all melee classes have problems to compete in dps with ranged/tactical. But they are all in a better situation than Champions (with the partial exception of Burglars).

    Beornings can heal in all instances and tiers plus they can also tank --not sure about T3, but possibly too. Guardians and Captains can also tank in all tiers, plus Captains are always welcome as buffers too. No problem at all for these classes, they are in a very good spot.
    Wardens are as good dps as Champions and much better at tanking, although they have some legitimate complaints in this department.
    Burglars have a guaranteed spot in raids as buffers/debuffers, so in this they are much better than Champions, but they aren't really valued in 3 man instances, possibly even less than Champions.

    Champions are seen as a nuisance as dps because they occupy a spot that could be given to a ranged class, and not even considered as tanks. That's the reality. Champions are accepted often (not always) in 3 mans and 6 mans as dps, but always Hunters and RKs are prefered. None of the other melee classes are forced to compete with Hunters and RKs for a spot in an instance. They can perform other roles, but Champions' alternative role as a tank is mostly a joke, only good in 3 mans T1.

    This is a really tiresome discussion. Please, don't try to tell us that all melee classes are in the same situation. Raid leaders don't want Champions in Anvil beyond T1. For Glimmerdeep ranged are always chosen before Champions. In Caverns I have yet to finish a T2 run. In Thikil Gundu T2/T3 we aren't exactly banned, but runs without Champions are frequent, runs without Hunters/Rks are completely unheard of. All the other melee classes (with the partial exception of Burglars already mentioned) can have a spot in those instances without problems. Champions are in a horrible spot at end game, and it's made even worse when players from other classes who should support us for the sake of balance just come here to tell us that we shouldn't complain.

    I agree you cannot compare those classes cause the roles are different.Burglars are not dps they are dbufers/ground controllers and always welcome for any 6man or 12man raid.Nobody cares about their dps in the group.Captains are buffers no one cares about how much dps they can get they care about how much dps they can give or how well they can tank and always have 2 spots permanently in the raids.Beornings are good buffers too and awesome healers they can even tank better than champions.
    Wardens are in the same position with champions but at least those they can tank so can be more useful than we are.On the other hand Champions can be compared only with other dps and those are the range ones.No matter how well i will play or how much practice i will do they always do more dps than me on single target so why a raid leader take me instead of them at the moment that single target dps is needed and not AOE.Just check in Abyss and Anvils progression threats how many kinships had champions in the group when they finish the raid on T2 challenge or in T3 and you will understand what is going on with the class since Mordor.Our problem is that we do less dps than range classes and above that we have to deal with unfriendly melee mechanics and unfriendly AOE mechanics in most cases.
    So what you should own to do as a developer to fix the problem ether you give more dps in single target to the champions so you close the gap or you make more melee AOE friendly instances.
    Last edited by Arandour; Feb 08 2019 at 09:33 PM.
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  3. #28
    So because classes have multiple specializations it’s fine to ignore their dps-specific trait lines? This is the problem with the development at its core and it’s people like you who cause these problems to be ignored.
    By your own rationale, the champ is the best aoe specialist in the game and will be taken for every fight that requires a lot of aoe. No point in buffing your red line at all in that case.

    Captains should have higher dps for groups, they’re not buff sticks.

    Burgs should have higher dps in red line.

    Guardians with 2H weapon red spec should do more dps.

    Champs should have a slightly higher dps, I still maintain they’re in the best spot for melee dps

    Wardens in their current state are just poor, it’s sad what’s been done to them vs initial release. Can they still tank? I’ve yet to see a warden tank a 3,6, or 12 man run.

    Beorn is a good healer, not as good as before. They are good tanks. Their dps specialization was recently trashed however and they only do slightly more dps than burgs.

    The problem is that hunters and RKs own those dps spots by 3x or more dps compared to any other melee dps class. These melee classes ALL have dps lines, but they’ve been ignored by the devs since they have alternate specs as well. This is well illustrated if you take a look at the healing numbers from a blue captain, it’s not been updated in YEARS. 200 heals over 3 seconds is nothing.

    The best I’ve seen a champ is 170k dps I think, the best Beo dps I’ve seen myself is 40k, guards, burgs, and cappies are also around 40k.
    Meanwhile, the best RK dps is 270k.
    -do you see the problem?
    100k more than a champ, and almost 7 times more than the other melee classes with dps gear and in their dps spec.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    So because classes have multiple specializations it’s fine to ignore their dps-specific trait lines? This is the problem with the development at its core and it’s people like you who cause these problems to be ignored.
    By your own rationale, the champ is the best aoe specialist in the game and will be taken for every fight that requires a lot of aoe. No point in buffing your red line at all in that case.

    Captains should have higher dps for groups, they’re not buff sticks.

    Burgs should have higher dps in red line.

    Guardians with 2H weapon red spec should do more dps.

    Champs should have a slightly higher dps, I still maintain they’re in the best spot for melee dps

    Wardens in their current state are just poor, it’s sad what’s been done to them vs initial release. Can they still tank? I’ve yet to see a warden tank a 3,6, or 12 man run.

    Beorn is a good healer, not as good as before. They are good tanks. Their dps specialization was recently trashed however and they only do slightly more dps than burgs.

    The problem is that hunters and RKs own those dps spots by 3x or more dps compared to any other melee dps class. These melee classes ALL have dps lines, but they’ve been ignored by the devs since they have alternate specs as well. This is well illustrated if you take a look at the healing numbers from a blue captain, it’s not been updated in YEARS. 200 heals over 3 seconds is nothing.

    The best I’ve seen a champ is 170k dps I think, the best Beo dps I’ve seen myself is 40k, guards, burgs, and cappies are also around 40k.
    Meanwhile, the best RK dps is 270k.
    -do you see the problem?
    100k more than a champ, and almost 7 times more than the other melee classes with dps gear and in their dps spec.

    Its not multiple specializations its their main role.Captains are buffers mostly and tanks then for their main roles are perfect burglars are bufers/debufers for their main role are perfect champions are dps that is perfect only for AOE that not needed in most of the cases any more end of story.I dont see any reason not to give those classes more dps but that is not cost them a spot in raids if they dont get more for champions it costs.So it is not my fault that they dont give dps to burglars or captains or whatever this is most welcome from me i wish all classes to be in a perfect condition and those that play with them to be happy but go ask the creeps at ettens if they want a red burglar to do more dps than he do now probably you know the answer.So those cause the problems from time to time in many cases and not me that i want to have the same dps or at least to be closer with the range.
    Also i see many people that they never play a champion or at least its not their main that they come in here and tell as what we need or not for our class and those in my eyes are the worst.At least for creeps is matter of survivability and not competition if you know what i mean...
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  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by dsltn07 View Post
    So because classes have multiple specializations it’s fine to ignore their dps-specific trait lines? This is the problem with the development at its core and it’s people like you who cause these problems to be ignored.
    By your own rationale, the champ is the best aoe specialist in the game and will be taken for every fight that requires a lot of aoe. No point in buffing your red line at all in that case.

    Captains should have higher dps for groups, they’re not buff sticks.

    Burgs should have higher dps in red line.

    Guardians with 2H weapon red spec should do more dps.

    Champs should have a slightly higher dps, I still maintain they’re in the best spot for melee dps

    Wardens in their current state are just poor, it’s sad what’s been done to them vs initial release. Can they still tank? I’ve yet to see a warden tank a 3,6, or 12 man run.

    Beorn is a good healer, not as good as before. They are good tanks. Their dps specialization was recently trashed however and they only do slightly more dps than burgs.

    The problem is that hunters and RKs own those dps spots by 3x or more dps compared to any other melee dps class. These melee classes ALL have dps lines, but they’ve been ignored by the devs since they have alternate specs as well. This is well illustrated if you take a look at the healing numbers from a blue captain, it’s not been updated in YEARS. 200 heals over 3 seconds is nothing.

    The best I’ve seen a champ is 170k dps I think, the best Beo dps I’ve seen myself is 40k, guards, burgs, and cappies are also around 40k.
    Meanwhile, the best RK dps is 270k.
    -do you see the problem?
    100k more than a champ, and almost 7 times more than the other melee classes with dps gear and in their dps spec.
    I wouldn't say that DPS-specific traitlines should be ignored long-term if a given class has other viable traitlines. Short-term though, yes they should. A Cappy for example is still viable in 2/3 traitlines in most content. A Beorning is viable in 2/3 traitlines too. Wardens, Champs, and Burgs are viable in 1/3 traitlines though (if that), so they should get more immediate help than other classes, especially since the traitline they are viable in is not always needed (or even wanted) for all content.

    More directly talking about Champs, we have a viable AoE line in a game where AoE is rarely ever the meta anymore. Sure, there are a few situations where it's useful, such as most small group content, but especially when it comes to raids, it is rarely (if ever) actually wanted.

    The main problem in a raid setting though is not so much the class in my opinion, but the support it gets from the rest of the raid. The "best" Champ you've seen is probably only actually pulling 40-60k DPS, but then with LM, Burg, Cappy, Warden, Hunt*rd, and Beorning in the raid giving support, that gets a lot higher. The problem arises when you realize that having 6 classes supporting a Champ (for example) does not provide the same amount of support that 3 classes (LM, Burg, RK) provide for a Hunt*rd or RK.


    Tangent regarding the Warden though, I have a friend who plays Warden who has tanked all new 3/6man instances on t3 multiple times with relative ease. They still work, but they are just weaker than (most of) the other tanks, and this discrepancy comes to light in raids where a higher standard is required. He has tanked t1 Anvil easily, but not yet able to tank t2 Anvil so far.* And DPS-wise, Warden single target is better than Champ single target based on what I have been seeing myself, ignoring whatever the forum warriors say when they engage in their pissing contests.

    *That's not to say that blue Warden doesn't need a bit of help, because it still does, but it is still viable at least for 3/6mans the way it is now.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Because this kind of earring, can just Beorningers loot.
    Beoringer has his own loot pool and all other might classes chare the same one.
    The really ironic thing? Beorn dps is awful, and so that earring you’re talking about is useless for Beornings. It doesn’t help our heal or tank line. And they get 1 point of crit for might, which is not great.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Burglars? For real? They have more damage then the Champion, have much more survivalbility and 1000x Time more Support for the group (I dont know what Buffs you are talking about, champion rent and physical mitigation debuffs are non existent) .
    The only thing they are worse is obviously Aoe.

    And in you first Sentence there is already the problem, why are champs forces to spend so much essences on mitigation? Hunter and Rk's can do nearly everthing without a singel mitigation essence.
    Hunter is not the only class that is way better then champ, Rk's are op again and the Warden is also super super strong, with much more Singeltargtet Dps and even or more Aoe Dps, compared to a champion.

    Just because you can do content with a class, it doesn't mean it is fine ( i can do all this stuff with Beroninger Dps to^^).
    Some things are just unfair, it starts with lesser stats for the champion and ends with mele unfriendly content (and a lot things in between).
    Overall Champion is not bad, that is true, but some classes are way more potent when it comes to damage and/or utility.
    And this is why I mentioned wardens and burgs. Doesn’t add up, and it’s what I was replying to earlier with my comment about warden dps.

    There is an underlying problem to the champion issue, like I said before, a 10% dps bump is not going to fix things for your class. It’s a problem that concerns all the melee classes.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    I just wanted to open this thread in the hope that it will catch the attention of the devs. I think that the current sorry state of the Champion isn't intended, it just escaped the devs' attention.

    [Edit 9/02/19: I've pruned out some personal annecdotes, I've added a picture taken from another LOTRO thread and I've done some editing of my writing. The problem for Champions is the same in February '19 as it was in October '18: as a class there's no space for us at end game, neither as dps or as tanks.]

    As this might be a longish post, I'll sum up the problem here:
    A Champion is scarcely viable as an end game toon at the moment.

    Champions have low single target dps if compared to the other dps classes (and that is naturally the suitable comparison), plus low survivability because heavy armour doesn't grant high mitigations as it did at lower levels, and because in instances melee always get hit, while often ranged don't.

    You can take 100% of the end level instances, and there's never a situation where a Champion is the prefered dps class. Sure enough, having high aoe is nice, but that's not enough when single target dps is low, and when ranged classes avoid damage and melee classes don't.

    To sum up the state of the Champion: low single target dps, low survivavility; we perform well in T1. Comparison with Hunters' and RKs' survivavility and single target dps is completely impossible, they play in another league.

    I add here that if in our main role, damage, we can't compete with ranged classes, in our secondary role, tanks, we can't compete with any other class capable of tanking. All the other classes (Guardians, Captains, Beornings and Wardens) are miles ahead of Champions.

    Finally, I copy here a picture taken from another thread (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...e-distribution), with thanks to Krindel who posted it. It's quite evident that the game has left Champions behind and they need some love from the devs.


    Developers wake up!!!!We cry for this thing to change since Abyss raid 2 years ago.Look at that photo and see how useful the champion class is again for this raid.Even for first boss in Anvil with so many adds we have to go single target and deal only with the boss for Christ shake.Our AOE dont even hit the boss unless you are "inside it" same thing like Abyss last boss.Our class is useful only for second boss cause its AOE fight for all the trash pulls and thats it.
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  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Developers wake up!!!!We cry for this thing to change since Abyss raid 2 years ago.Look at that photo and see how useful the champion class is again for this raid.Even for first boss in Anvil with so many adds we have to go single target and deal only with the boss for Christ shake.Our AOE dont even hit the boss unless you are "inside it" same thing like Abyss last boss.Our class is useful only for second boss cause its AOE fight for all the trash pulls and thats it.
    Just becuase they have no good champs doesnt mean that champs are useless.
    Silmoth - Champ of Vanyar

  10. #35

    Post

    I agree on what was said before...

    I am tired of the melee unfriendliness that has been in this game since quite a while.
    The AoE role of the champion has become meaningless, his defense capacities are very meager and the DPS output can't be compared to classes like RK and hunter.

    Imo, a few changes would be a good beginning, like giving us back the proper rend armour reduction that we had, increase defense by heavy armour, make might a more important stat by letting it boost b/p/e and crit, increase crit damage in skill tree, reduce cooldown for clobber to 5s...
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengiliath View Post
    I agree on what was said before...

    I am tired of the melee unfriendliness that has been in this game since quite a while.
    The AoE role of the champion has become meaningless, his defense capacities are very meager and the DPS output can't be compared to classes like RK and hunter.

    Imo, a few changes would be a good beginning, like giving us back the proper rend armour reduction that we had, increase defense by heavy armour, make might a more important stat by letting it boost b/p/e and crit, increase crit damage in skill tree, reduce cooldown for clobber to 5s...
    If they do those things i will be real happy cause those are much more than my expectations.I just ask from developers to give as an output of 10-15% more damage to our single trait line so we can be closer to range dps and also not to make AOE unfriendly mecs for the instances and most of people(other classes that i dont even know what they afraid of if the champions get a proper boost) start telling me that it is my fault that i dont play my champ well enough and things like that.
    Also i was expecting here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...less-once-more some support from fellow champions cause i am almost alone in there fighting with everyone ...
    Last edited by Arandour; Feb 15 2019 at 03:27 AM.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    I agree you cannot compare those classes cause the roles are different.Burglars are not dps they are dbufers/ground controllers and always welcome for any 6man or 12man raid.Nobody cares about their dps in the group.Captains are buffers no one cares about how much dps they can get they care about how much dps they can give or how well they can tank and always have 2 spots permanently in the raids.Beornings are good buffers too and awesome healers they can even tank better than champions.
    Wardens are in the same position with champions but at least those they can tank so can be more useful than we are.On the other hand Champions can be compared only with other dps and those are the range ones.No matter how well i will play or how much practice i will do they always do more dps than me on single target so why a raid leader take me instead of them at the moment that single target dps is needed and not AOE.Just check in Abyss and Anvils progression threats how many kinships had champions in the group when they finish the raid on T2 challenge or in T3 and you will understand what is going on with the class since Mordor.Our problem is that we do less dps than range classes and above that we have to deal with unfriendly melee mechanics and unfriendly AOE mechanics in most cases.
    So what you should own to do as a developer to fix the problem ether you give more dps in single target to the champions so you close the gap or you make more melee AOE friendly instances.


    Seems you don't have a clue about burglars or haven't touched them in years.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hfe View Post
    Seems you don't have a clue about burglars or haven't touched them in years.
    I dont have something against burglars my best friend in game have burglar and i hope the class can be very good for him in the future.If it was in my hands burglars would had dps close to single target champions cause like that they can be even more useful.
    On the other hand I see them always in my group having a spot no matter how melee unfriendly is the instance so probably the group dont care about the dps that they can do but from what support they can give.Look the new raid first boss at T3 for example they even thinking of putting 2 burglars for interrupting those energizers but they dont care if a champion will be in the group or not cause range can cover his job even better.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Also i was expecting here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...less-once-more some support from fellow champions cause i am almost alone in there fighting with everyone ...
    Yes, of course you're giving opinions based on common sense, the problem is that other players don't answer with the idea of balancing the game, they have other priorities.
    It's difficult to discuss reasonably with people who tell you that having mouses with 30 buttons or swapping weapons infinite times in the middle of a fight is the way to go. So, maybe with that mindset, it's a good thing that Champions have lower dps than the other dps classes, I don't know. Even more, maybe if you use macros Champions' dps is as high as the ranged dps classes, or even higher --who would know?

    The question is that all regular players agree that Champions' dps is lower than the other dps classes, that game mechanics make our positioning often difficult and risky, and that because of that we have difficulties to find spots at end game as dps. It's hard to believe that that's the devs' vision of the class, so we Champions ask for a more balanced situation, which means an increase of our dps.

    That would make players with 30 buttons OPed as Champions? That's what I hear some say, and they would know better than I, so I don't contradict them --although I can't say that I really believe them. I rather think that they prefer the current situation for their own reasons.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    Yes, of course you're giving opinions based on common sense, the problem is that other players don't answer with the idea of balancing the game, they have other priorities.
    It's difficult to discuss reasonably with people who tell you that having mouses with 30 buttons or swapping weapons infinite times in the middle of a fight is the way to go. So, maybe with that mindset, it's a good thing that Champions have lower dps than the other dps classes, I don't know. Even more, maybe if you use macros Champions' dps is as high as the ranged dps classes, or even higher --who would know?

    The question is that all regular players agree that Champions' dps is lower than the other dps classes, that game mechanics make our positioning often difficult and risky, and that because of that we have difficulties to find spots at end game as dps. It's hard to believe that that's the devs' vision of the class, so we Champions ask for a more balanced situation, which means an increase of our dps.

    That would make players with 30 buttons OPed as Champions? That's what I hear some say, and they would know better than I, so I don't contradict them --although I can't say that I really believe them. I rather think that they prefer the current situation for their own reasons.
    I agree with you that mele classes are often more diffecult to play, due to mechanics. But every thing else you wrote is nonsense, you don't need macros or x amount of mouse buttons to pull off good dps. Weapons swapping does increase the champions dps (not nearly as much as people claim it does), but the same is true for hunters and most other classes when it comes to utility abilities.
    Champion is, in general, a harder class to play, which results in a larger DPS gap between "casual" and "raid" people.

    Overall I would say, that the champ need changes, two-handed weapons need to get stronger and red should get the old Continuous Blood Rage back, so we can go more glass canon if needed . Also, instance/mechanics should provide more or less equal situations for ranged and mele (Or make mele DPS in general better then ranged)

    With the Anvil the champion is in the best spot since lvl 85 in my opinion, you always can and you always should improve x or z, in terms of balance, but pls take this moment to appreciate that champs are useful ones again.

    Edit: Ans PLLLLLS fix the dwarf champion, i dont know how its posible that the a race difference makes more then 10% dps difference.
    Last edited by Gertes; Feb 15 2019 at 04:51 PM.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I agree with you that mele classes are often more diffecult to play, due to mechanics. But every thing else you wrote is nonsense, you don't need macros or x amount of mouse buttons to pull off good dps. Weapons swapping does increase the champions dps (not nearly as much as people claim it does), but the same is true for hunters and most other classes when it comes to utility abilities.
    Champion is, in general, a harder class to play, which results in a larger DPS gap between "casual" and "raid" people.

    Overall I would say, that the champ need changes, two-handed weapons need to get stronger and red should get the old Continuous Blood Rage back, so we can go more glass canon if needed . Also, instance/mechanics should provide more or less equal situations for ranged and mele (Or make mele DPS in general better then ranged)

    With the Anvil the champion is in the best spot since lvl 85 in my opinion, you always can and you always should improve x or z, in terms of balance, but pls take this moment to appreciate that champs are useful ones again.

    Edit: Ans PLLLLLS fix the dwarf champion, i dont know how its posible that the a race difference makes more then 10% dps difference.
    3 of 4 bosses on Anvil are for the favor of range dps and mostly single target and we are in the best spot since lvl 85 and we are also useful !!? They have made some good changes to the class after Abyss and if you mean that i agree.
    Champions as matter of class are on the best position yes but as matter of the instances and the mechanics I think our worst spot was at Abyss and our best spot was at Throne there we were useful yes and all the raids before Saruman.You couldn't advance sometimes if you didnt have a couple of melee aoe dps on the group.I have play all the raids since Helegrod was the first raid that we did at lvl 50.First time after all those years that i heard the expression "unfriendly melee mechanics" was at Mordors instances mostly at the Abyss and they are continuing more or less since today.Thank god Anvil its not like Abyss but still its for the range favor and i dont think that we are so useful so a range cannot replace our spots with no problem at all.You couldnt say that ofc for Thrones last boss that you needed 2 AOE melees to advance if you wanted to get the challenge.
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  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    3 of 4 bosses on Anvil are for the favor of range dps and mostly single target and we are in the best spot since lvl 85 and we are also useful !!? They have made some good changes to the class after Abyss and if you mean that i agree.
    Champions as matter of class are on the best position yes but as matter of the instances and the mechanics I think our worst spot was at Abyss and our best spot was at Throne there we were useful yes and all the raids before Saruman.You couldn't advance sometimes if you didnt have a couple of melee aoe dps on the group.I have play all the raids since Helegrod was the first raid that we did at lvl 50.First time after all those years that i heard the expression "unfriendly melee mechanics" was at Mordors instances mostly at the Abyss and they are continuing more or less since today.Thank god Anvil its not like Abyss but still its for the range favor and i dont think that we are so useful so a range cannot replace our spots with no problem at all.You couldnt say that ofc for Thrones last boss that you needed 2 AOE melees to advance if you wanted to get the challenge.
    I agree thath every boss besides ID2 is more or less "easyer" for ranged classes.
    ID1: The Kick and kiting mechanics sometimes screw you up, but not always, most of the time you can stil dps when people kite with the eye (you just loose the captain banner) and if you get bounced to a wall you will most likely able to dps without much downtime.
    ID2: Great for champs overall
    ID3: The fight is more or less static, so you have no disatvantage compared to ranged DD'S, besides the icicles phase, the icicles can only damaged by ranged classes, and mele classes have nothing to do here. But luckely the icicles phase is not super important, so i wont concider this fight generally mele unfriendly.
    ID4: You have a little bit of down time, when running behind the Ice, sometimes ranged classes can still dps the boss, while behind the sheltered zone. In the second phase where you are running, Ranged classes can dps slightly earlyer the frost grimms, due to there range.

    In general Ranged classes have it still easier, but not by much. ID1 and ID3 have some clearly anti mele mechanics, but i have seen far worse.
    The thing is I still end up nearly every fight, on the top DPS spot, or at least on the same level as hunters, with my champion. As i wrote before changes are still needed, if mele unfriendly mechanics stay we need more DPS to compensate for it, also physical support should be somewhat adjusted without a warden and/or below, my DPS is often just mediocor.I'm currently just happy that champs are useful again. I know that is not true for every champion, because most raid groups/kins still favor ranged classes a lot, what results in more mele unfriendly behavior, also champ is one of the harder classes (compared to red rk).

    I know that you want the yellow champion to be usefull and to be fair, he is just usefull in ID2 and the trash, most of the time. Rent still gives a reasonable amount of group support, but i thing the more damage from red should still be better.
    I also tried to Aoe ID3 in the second phase, after they split. The problem is Karazgar is taking much less damage then his Drake, so your overall damage is not really higher (but also not really less), compared to just single target the drake.
    After ID1 got changed we are tryng to kill the adds (In t3) and obviusly champs are great here, i just dont know if this will become the cmommon tactic, or ID1 will be end up getting oneshotet again.
    Last edited by Gertes; Feb 16 2019 at 05:09 AM.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I agree with you that mele classes are often more diffecult to play, due to mechanics. But every thing else you wrote is nonsense
    Yes, I know. I used illogical thinking to counteract unreasonable arguments. Quite effective to expose the low level of the debate.

    All in all, while I like all classes to be useful and give a sense of fulfilment to the player, I detest it when that feeling of fulfilment comes from playing an OPed class striving to keep an unbalanced statu quo.

    Don't nerf anyone, I ask, just allow other classes (Champions if we're talking of dps, other classes in other situations) to be at the same level.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    Yes, I know. I used illogical thinking to counteract unreasonable arguments. Quite effective to expose the low level of the debate.

    All in all, while I like all classes to be useful and give a sense of fulfilment to the player, I detest it when that feeling of fulfilment comes from playing an OPed class striving to keep an unbalanced statu quo.

    Don't nerf anyone, I ask, just allow other classes (Champions if we're talking of dps, other classes in other situations) to be at the same level.
    Well the problem is champ is currently in the same dps ranged as rk's and hunters. Hunters are still slightly better, due to the mechanics, but just slightly.
    So you ask for something what is already there.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Well the problem is champ is currently in the same dps ranged as rk's and hunters. Hunters are still slightly better, due to the mechanics, but just slightly.
    So you ask for something what is already there.
    Not really. A Champion in 6 mans and 12 mans should be the equal of any other dps class, and arguably in 3 mans too --unless Champion tanking is improved. We're far from there.

    Please, don't repeat that Champions are more difficult to play than the other dps classes. If I wanted an advanced class I would play a Warden. I play a Champion because everything is straightforward, as it is for Hunters and for dps RKs.

    We need to be in the same range of dps with players of those classes who have our same gear and skill. You know how to use automation of skills? Kudos for you. You've proved that using it Champions have high dps. But most players of all classes don't use it, and without it a Champion should still be viable, as are the other classes.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post
    Not really. A Champion in 6 mans and 12 mans should be the equal of any other dps class, and arguably in 3 mans too --unless Champion tanking is improved. We're far from there.

    Please, don't repeat that Champions are more difficult to play than the other dps classes. If I wanted an advanced class I would play a Warden. I play a Champion because everything is straightforward, as it is for Hunters and for dps RKs.

    We need to be in the same range of dps with players of those classes who have our same gear and skill. You know how to use automation of skills? Kudos for you. You've proved that using it Champions have high dps. But most players of all classes don't use it, and without it a Champion should still be viable, as are the other classes.
    What ever the automation is you re talking about, I'm not using macros or what ever. Also, my mouse has just 4 additional Buttons (on top on left right and mouse wheel), so no 30 Button mouse is required^^
    I'm really tired of people, who claim that something is not done by hand or possible, just because they cant do it.
    And advanced does not mean difficult, it's true that you need to spend some time with the warden, but after you are familiar with most of his stuff he is not more difficult than a champion, in my opinion.
    Last edited by Gertes; Feb 16 2019 at 05:48 AM.
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  22. #47
    A band-aid fix would be to just get Fire damage weapon scroll for Champs, should about even out/balance the DPS in end-game content, instead of getting into complicated class balancing (which has a good chance of messing things even further, not to mention that the devs have apparently no time for either).

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araphorn View Post
    A band-aid fix would be to just get Fire damage weapon scroll for Champs, should about even out/balance the DPS in end-game content, instead of getting into complicated class balancing (which has a good chance of messing things even further, not to mention that the devs have apparently no time for either).
    Agree cause when we are solo or have to deal with AOE friendly instances no problem at all we are powerful the problem is when we are in group we have to go single target and all other range dps classes can benefit from lore masters buffs for fire damage and we cannot.So yes first they should add this and then we will see if anything else needed.
    Last edited by Arandour; Feb 16 2019 at 07:32 AM.
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  24. #49
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    There is simply 1 big difference:

    Gertes knows how to play champion,does up to 200k dps st and is happy.

    Arandour doesnt know how to play champion,does half that dps and is qqing every day in the forums without an end.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadien View Post
    There is simply 1 big difference:

    Gertes knows how to play champion,does up to 200k dps st and is happy.

    Arandour doesnt know how to play champion,does half that dps and is qqing every day in the forums without an end.

    hahahahaha ok whatever....
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