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  1. #1
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    A cry of alarm to the devs

    I just wanted to open this thread in the hope that it will catch the attention of the devs. I think that the current sorry state of the Champion isn't intended, it just escaped the devs' attention.

    [Edit 9/02/19: I've pruned out some personal annecdotes, I've added a picture taken from another LOTRO thread and I've done some editing of my writing. The problem for Champions is the same in February '19 as it was in October '18: as a class there's no space for us at end game, neither as dps or as tanks.]

    As this might be a longish post, I'll sum up the problem here:
    A Champion is scarcely viable as an end game toon at the moment.

    Champions have low single target dps if compared to the other dps classes (and that is naturally the suitable comparison), plus low survivability because heavy armour doesn't grant high mitigations as it did at lower levels, and because in instances melee always get hit, while often ranged don't.

    You can take 100% of the end level instances, and there's never a situation where a Champion is the prefered dps class. Sure enough, having high aoe is nice, but that's not enough when single target dps is low, and when ranged classes avoid damage and melee classes don't.

    To sum up the state of the Champion: low single target dps, low survivavility; we perform well in T1. Comparison with Hunters' and RKs' survivavility and single target dps is completely impossible, they play in another league.

    I add here that if in our main role, damage, we can't compete with ranged classes, in our secondary role, tanks, we can't compete with any other class capable of tanking. All the other classes (Guardians, Captains, Beornings and Wardens) are miles ahead of Champions.

    Finally, I copy here a picture taken from another thread (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...e-distribution), with thanks to Krindel who posted it. It's quite evident that the game has left Champions behind and they need some love from the devs.

    Last edited by Maeg; Feb 09 2019 at 10:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeg View Post

    To sum up the state of the Champion: low single target dps, very low survivavility; we might perform acceptably as tanks in 3 mans if we get some 120 tanking gear and there are no ranged monsters (that we can't aggro). Comparison with Hunter's survivavility and single target dps is completely impossible. I think I don't exagerate at all if I say that 1 Hunter equals 4 (or more) dps Champions in actual gameplay.

    I understand that with better level 120 gear the situation of the Champion might improve, but I can't see how we could hope to bridge the gap that separate us from the other dps classes, and specifically from Hunters, who seem to play in a demi-god mode, looking down from the Olympus at the struggling dps Champion.
    I haven't played the new stuff much, but this matches up with what people were seeing on Bullroarer.

    If anyone can, please post some DPS parses with target dummies or on level 120 bosses so that devs have detailed data and can compare to other classes, along with your stats and gear build.

    Single target has been weak for a while, and it feels like Champs are falling further behind. When Throne of the Dread Terror was endgame, single target DPS wasn't great, but there were so many adds in the instances and the champ's debuffs (Rend and the two horn debuffs) were significant enough that groups wanted champs. Now, ST DPS has declined and the buffs haven't scaled up proportionally, so champs aren't usually wanted on 3 or 6 player instances.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    I haven't played the new stuff much, but this matches up with what people were seeing on Bullroarer.

    If anyone can, please post some DPS parses with target dummies or on level 120 bosses so that devs have detailed data and can compare to other classes, along with your stats and gear build.

    Single target has been weak for a while, and it feels like Champs are falling further behind. When Throne of the Dread Terror was endgame, single target DPS wasn't great, but there were so many adds in the instances and the champ's debuffs (Rend and the two horn debuffs) were significant enough that groups wanted champs. Now, ST DPS has declined and the buffs haven't scaled up proportionally, so champs aren't usually wanted on 3 or 6 player instances.
    I am one of those who asked for higher single target damage for champs since at least Mordor beta if not earlier, but with the current update and especially the instances I am somewhat torn apart.
    Yes, champions fall behind in hunters and runekeepers against one target, but at least in Thikil-Gundu there are almost always many targets to hit and here the champion can shine. Within the few runs I have done I had double or even more the DPS of the hunters against groups of mobs and never felt useless or underpowered. Perhaps a bit too vulnerable, but that's because my mitigations are almost non existent at least against tactical damage.

    The problems I see at the moment are more the following:

    First the itemization is rather irritating. While will-classes get something like 15-20k mastery and up to 10k crit (and of course the usual will/vitality) on one item, might-classes get 10-12k mastery and 900 fate on a comparable piece of equipment.
    Another example for broken itemization from my latest Thikil-Gundu run were the rings a hunter and myself got. Both with mainstat/vitality/mastery/fate.
    Hunter's ring was one item level lower then mine but had 2k more mastery and 700 more agility while mine had 100 more fate and 600 more vitality. If both go for offence there is a clear winner I think.

    Second problem comes from the disparity of the usefulness of (main)stats for a characters main role.
    Champions only gain 2 mastery per point might whereas agility classes get 1 point crit on top of that. That is 50% more useful stats from the mainstat compared to a champion or in the current state of itemization about 30k more crit for agility classes (roughly 4 essences worth of crit!)
    If we take vitality into the equation it gets even darker for champions as in my opinion the 1 point of tactical mitigation hunters and will classes get is much more useful then the 0.5 point morale champions get.
    Last edited by Schaijian; Oct 23 2018 at 12:45 AM.

  4. #4
    Heavy armor is also not heavy armor any more, the difference in the armor value between medium -> heavy armor is waaaaaaaay to small. What is the point in wearing heavy armor when you have in the end the same (or even lower when it comes to tactical mit.) mitigations then light medium armor.

    Yeah and itemization, it seems to me that fate is the new main stat for Champ^^
    The left Earring is a purple 371 Beorninger Ring and the right one is a blue 375 Champion (heavy might Earring). The blue stuff is supposed to be much much better then the purple one. But as a dps champion the lower itemlvl Beo Earring is better for me^^ (ofc i loose vitality but if we just look at damage the beorninger loot is better)



    I know that Beorninger is another topic, but i dont get why they give beorninger critt for might (we asked for stat equality since Mordor!) and overall better stats on the loot (when we are looking at damage). People underrate how powerful at least yellow beo already is.

    Mele classes need to have higher dps (when standing still) and need to be more tanky then ranged classes.
    If the red champ for example would deal vs. a training dummy 10% more damage then a hunter, he would still have lesser damage in a raid/instance scenario, due to debuffs and anti mele mechanics.

    Edit:

    I forgot to mention 2h Headstats (i know that not only champs are affected by it but they need to have much more value, to compensate for the missing offhand)
    And what is this^^ In what world is this fair stat wise
    Last edited by Gertes; Oct 29 2018 at 05:27 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaijian View Post
    I am one of those who asked for higher single target damage for champs since at least Mordor beta if not earlier, but with the current update and especially the instances I am somewhat torn apart.
    Yes, champions fall behind in hunters and runekeepers against one target, but at least in Thikil-Gundu there are almost always many targets to hit and here the champion can shine. Within the few runs I have done I had double or even more the DPS of the hunters against groups of mobs and never felt useless or underpowered. Perhaps a bit too vulnerable, but that's because my mitigations are almost non existent at least against tactical damage.

    An increase in single target DPS is now a must for Champions in instances (not that it wouldn't have been welcome before) because heavy armour doesn't give the mitigations it used to, and because the mechanics of the instances are such that melee toons always receive damage, while ranged dps only get a fraction of the damage (what with harming auras, stuns, punts, aoe, etc.). I insist, I'm not talking about really complicated mechanics in T2C raids. I'm in a small kinship and we struggle to find people to run 3 mans, so we have to resort to pugs all the time. At level 115 those were T2 pugs, because good gear was available after a reasonable grind, now we're talking T1 pugs since we can't get T2 gear. And, on top of that, because in all instances mechanics favour ranged dps!

    Yes, I've done TG T1 a few times, and aoe seems a good idea there. But, once again, there's a catch. My runs are with tanks not so well geared which don't keep reliable aggro on the dwarves, and they die all the time because of the mobs buffs. So, Champions get aggro very easily and they die too. Hunters only aggro one mob at a time, and they can kite it until the tank retrieves it. Again, mechanics punishes Champions and favour single target ranged classes. So, what's fastest, I ask: high aoe dps dead, or high single target dps alive?

    But that ¡s just one instance. What about the other two new instances? Thrumfall is impossible for melee dps amd Glimmerdeep is the only one where melee dps can shine --until, that is, a special mechanics is developed where the last boss is kited and it has to be killed at range. That's the situation --always.

    So, it's not a problem where we should be asking for 1% more critical rating from main stats. To be equal to other dps classes (if I'm not wrong the 3 good dps classes at the moment are Hunters, RKs and Wardens --but in my only successful run in Thrumfall the main dps was a Minstrel and he performed brilliantly), we need an increase in single target dps much higher than that. How much higher? Well, many people like to run numbers. Just parse the main dps classes, compare the figures with Champions and then consider that Champions need higher dps than that to be viable.

    Or then again, we can be a bit under the higher single target dps numbers (only a bit, not at half their damage as we are now), provided we got some huge increase in ranged dps, because there are so many situations where the mechanics favour ranged dps. Say, something like Let fly with 1 sec CD and the possibility of having oils, like Hunters (Hunters have melee skills, haven't they? --so a few ranged skills for Champions could be acceptable too). I know, that doesn't sound like a Champion at all, but there's huge frustration in a dps toon that can't be viable main dps, so all I'm asking is for the devs to provide a solution (any solution) to the Champion not being able to fulfill the role of main dps in instances.


    EDIT: Although, to be fair, tanking 3 mans seems more viable after U23, since we seem to have more reliable aggro. Still, I wouldn't say we are in a strong position to tank 3 mans at all, since we still have difficulties with ranged mobs. And then, are we really supposed to aspire to tank spots instead of dps spots in 3 mans?
    Last edited by Maeg; Oct 28 2018 at 09:07 AM.

  6. #6
    After my experience in Mordor, I gambled that champs would not be in a good position for this next round of instances, so I prioritized leveling my guard, mini, and RK before the champ, and it seems to have been the right decision. But now I've discovered that even RKs are not welcome to DPS in Thrumfall above T1.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Heavy armor is also not heavy armor any more, the difference in the armor value between medium -> heavy armor is waaaaaaaay to small. What is the point in wearing heavy armor when you have in the end the same (or even lower when it comes to tactical mit.) mitigations then light medium armor.

    Yeah and itemization, it seems to me that fate is the new main stat for Champ^^
    The left Earring is a purple 371 Beorninger Ring and the right one is a blue 375 Champion (heavy might Earring). The blue stuff is supposed to be much much better then the purple one. But as a dps champion the lower itemlvl Beo Earring is better for me^^ (ofc i loose vitality but if we just look at damage the beorninger loot is better)



    I know that Beorninger is another topic, but i dont get why they give beorninger critt for might (we asked for stat equality since Mordor!) and overall better stats on the loot (when we are looking at damage). People underrate how powerful at least yellow beo already is.

    Mele classes need to have higher dps (when standing still) and need to be more tanky then ranged classes.
    If the red champ for example would deal vs. a training dummy 10% more damage then a hunter, he would still have lesser damage in a raid/instance scenario, due to debuffs and anti mele mechanics.

    Edit:

    I forgot to mention 2h Headstats (i know that not only champs are affected by it but they need to have much more value, to compensate for the missing offhand)
    And what is this^^ In what world is this fair stat wise
    What makes you think that the purple earring is for Beornings only ? Only medium might armour is for Beo but any jewellery or such with might can be used on any might (beo, cappy, champ, guard) class.
    Captain-General Narthrivor r15 Hunter - r12 Warden - r12 Champion - r7 Captain - r6 Guardian - Phoenix Legion and Innocent raid alliance - Laurelin EN-RP

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoFTW View Post
    What makes you think that the purple earring is for Beornings only ? Only medium might armour is for Beo but any jewellery or such with might can be used on any might (beo, cappy, champ, guard) class.
    Because this kind of earring, can just Beorningers loot.
    Beoringer has his own loot pool and all other might classes chare the same one.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Because this kind of earring, can just Beorningers loot.
    Beoringer has his own loot pool and all other might classes chare the same one.
    Since all the loot is bound to account, you can use it on whatever class you want to.
    Captain-General Narthrivor r15 Hunter - r12 Warden - r12 Champion - r7 Captain - r6 Guardian - Phoenix Legion and Innocent raid alliance - Laurelin EN-RP

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoFTW View Post
    Since all the loot is bound to account, you can use it on whatever class you want to.
    That is not the point, the point is that i need to loot as a beo my selfe (or have a beo in group who trades me the item) to get gear that is better for my champion, then the loot i can get my self by playing a champion
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  11. #11
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    I did this boss fight in T2 with a RK and a Minstrel.

    First time we tried letting the RK dps the boss from range, but it took like 10 minutes for the boss to lose 10% hp. (The bosses knockback and aoe made it nearly impossible for the RK to get off rotations)

    Then we switched, I the champion went red line, tanked the boss and killed it within a few minutes. While the minstrel healed me from behind and RK added rotations while dealing with adds.

    I don't think the champion is in as bad a place as everyone is saying it is. My only problems with the champion is the "Champions Duel, and Controlled burn" skill animations being a bit clunky and slow.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomStorm View Post
    I did this boss fight in T2 with a RK and a Minstrel.

    First time we tried letting the RK dps the boss from range, but it took like 10 minutes for the boss to lose 10% hp. (The bosses knockback and aoe made it nearly impossible for the RK to get off rotations)

    Then we switched, I the champion went red line, tanked the boss and killed it within a few minutes. While the minstrel healed me from behind and RK added rotations while dealing with adds.

    I don't think the champion is in as bad a place as everyone is saying it is. My only problems with the champion is the "Champions Duel, and Controlled burn" skill animations being a bit clunky and slow.
    I was under the impression that this boss was resistant to fire damage. Is this not the case?

    I don't want to speak to champ capability vs rk at the moment because I haven't been able to get the best gear yet. The queasy feeling i get looking at rk chisels, and then might jewelry vs will jewelry makes me concerned though. That coupled with running an instance with a fire rk watching the rk melt mobs while I was in yellow whittling their bars down didn't comfort me any.

  13. #13
    Champion is fine. Just underpowered instead of hunter but not a problem. With decent stuff and mitig phy10x k tact 5x k you should be able to do content (not dragon endboss 3man in Etterfang).

    ATM i did :

    glimmerdeep t2 (dps and tank on boss) t3 (dps but not endeed at end boss but you can do teammate did it)
    thikil t2 (dps and tank on boss 2 and some trash) t3 (dps only first boss)
    Etterfang : obviously t2/t3 end boss is pain and i am not sure to be able to do it atm. For me this instance is a real problem only few class can do it.

    Champion is near boss and trash and can't stay static and safe like RK => It have an impact on Dps but you can do decent damage in multitarget and good team with buff.

    No reason to cry. Burglar should be crying.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Papou_sous_la_montagne View Post
    Champion is fine. Just underpowered instead of hunter but not a problem. With decent stuff and mitig phy10x k tact 5x k you should be able to do content (not dragon endboss 3man in Etterfang).

    ATM i did :

    glimmerdeep t2 (dps and tank on boss) t3 (dps but not endeed at end boss but you can do teammate did it)
    thikil t2 (dps and tank on boss 2 and some trash) t3 (dps only first boss)
    Etterfang : obviously t2/t3 end boss is pain and i am not sure to be able to do it atm. For me this instance is a real problem only few class can do it.

    Champion is near boss and trash and can't stay static and safe like RK => It have an impact on Dps but you can do decent damage in multitarget and good team with buff.

    No reason to cry. Burglar should be crying.
    Burglars? For real? They have more damage then the Champion, have much more survivalbility and 1000x Time more Support for the group (I dont know what Buffs you are talking about, champion rent and physical mitigation debuffs are non existent) .
    The only thing they are worse is obviously Aoe.

    And in you first Sentence there is already the problem, why are champs forces to spend so much essences on mitigation? Hunter and Rk's can do nearly everthing without a singel mitigation essence.
    Hunter is not the only class that is way better then champ, Rk's are op again and the Warden is also super super strong, with much more Singeltargtet Dps and even or more Aoe Dps, compared to a champion.

    Just because you can do content with a class, it doesn't mean it is fine ( i can do all this stuff with Beroninger Dps to^^).
    Some things are just unfair, it starts with lesser stats for the champion and ends with mele unfriendly content (and a lot things in between).
    Overall Champion is not bad, that is true, but some classes are way more potent when it comes to damage and/or utility.
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  15. #15
    Burglars? For real? They have more damage then the Champion, have much more survivalbility and 1000x Time more Support for the group (I dont know what Buffs you are talking about, champion rent and physical mitigation debuffs are non existent) .
    The only thing they are worse is obviously Aoe.
    Burglar is good class but not for playing atm, lore master is better in debuff and people prefer it. Champion RK LM and ranger are prefered and better because of their polyvalency (is burglar can heal and debbuf in glimmerdeep t2/t3 line LM ? real question). But i never said or never intended to say burglar can't do content. Burglar is really strong in raid and i am sure he was good in t6man with RK in dps. Like RK + champ or Rk + ranger. He is good in 3man too. Problem is just people if you understand what i mean. Like me when i try to tank with my champion. xD

    Then burglar not a subject here.

    EDIT : personnal dps buff in aoe (True Heroics + Exchange of Blows + Controlled Burn + Great Cleave + rent & corn débuff + fervour pot) for example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    And in you first Sentence there is already the problem, why are champs forces to spend so much essences on mitigation? Hunter and Rk's can do nearly everthing without a singel mitigation essence.
    That i said you are not forced, i have 5x k mitig tactic on my dps setup and it's fine ( but not for Etterfang for sure). today it's better time for champion than seregost/mordath's era. At the end with last stuff + buff all will be fine. But like you i know this need to be ajusted.

    Just because you can do content with a class, it doesn't mean it is fine ( i can do all this stuff with Beroninger Dps to^^).
    i am not jealous about other class, i just want do end game content in good state.

    Some things are just unfair, it starts with lesser stats for the champion and ends with mele unfriendly content (and a lot things in between).
    My experience. Champion dps depend more than you, if tank don't pack properly or don't move when there is debuff or damage at ground ( sry i do'nt have words for this) then it's hard to sustain dps facing rk 's dot. I had 180 k dps spike in aoe in some pack in thinkil t2 with minstrel and captain buff. We have strong potential.

    Overall Champion is not bad, that is true, but some classes are way more potent when it comes to damage and/or utility.
    You can (off) tank dps one or many target. What do you want more ? be healer or debuffer ? But i know there is limit (tanking t3 atm is not possible) and my only concern is in red line with all context i talked about our dps leaking. What's solution ?
    Last edited by Papou_sous_la_montagne; Nov 05 2018 at 09:15 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Papou_sous_la_montagne View Post

    You can (off) tank dps one or many target. What do you want more ? be healer or debuffer ? But i know there is limit (tanking t3 atm is not possible) and my only concern is in red line with all context i talked about our dps leaking. What's solution ?
    You just need to compare the champion with the warden he a better tank, has better singel target damage, has better ranged damage, has better debuffs, and worst of all better aoe damage!

    What i want? I want that the champ is capable of the same damage that rk's, hunter and wardens are doing. Just so he can stay competitive.

    But i agree with you, Mordor was worse for the champ then it currently is, but to achieve a better class balance things still need to change.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    You just need to compare the champion with the warden he a better tank, has better singel target damage, has better ranged damage, has better debuffs, and worst of all better aoe damage!

    What i want? I want that the champ is capable of the same damage that rk's, hunter and wardens are doing. Just so he can stay competitive.

    But i agree with you, Mordor was worse for the champ then it currently is, but to achieve a better class balance things still need to change.
    Fairly easy fixes that could make champs more desirable for group instances & raids:

    - Raise the Rend Armour Reduction rating on the LI legacy, as well as the Horn of Gondor Physical Mit Reduction debuff LI legacy to be more meaningful (2-3x what it currently is). When Minas Tirith & Dread Terror was endgame, groups wanted this. Single Target DPS wasn't the best, but those skills made champs and everyone else better. Mordor didn't scale those debuffs up as it was before, so it's become much less meaningful.

    - Change True Heroics skill to a standard buff in all trait lines (whether buffing crit chance, melee damage, or attack duration), and change the LI legacy to improve that buff. The current legacy is improves the power it gives, but groups generally aren't looking to champs to replenish power, nor is the buff as powerful as other classes' power replenishment.

    - Change the Exchange of Blows damage LI legacy back to a Great Cleave duration improvement (or cooldown reduction or AoE DPS buff magnitude) legacy. Exchange of Blows is nice, but it doesn't usually provide meaningful DPS output. Giving champs a better burst of DPS would be more helpful to pop when big groups of mobs hit. The only time Exchange of Blows has been useful to me in a boss fight is when the boss has a buff that keeps stacking to the point that it's a one shot kill for any player. If I pop that and run at the boss, I've been able to kamikaze him to kill both of us. But those are pretty few and far between.

    - Greatly increase the damage buff of the Merciful Strike LI legacy. The skill isn't that powerful to begin with and takes trait points to be able to remove the enemy morale % cap and it wipes fervour, so it is not a preferred skill. Making it more powerful may mean that players would actually use if from time to time, especially red line DPS and blue line tanks.

    - Changing the Ebbing Ire LI legacy to a Controlled Burn buff (either to attack speed or melee damage) LI legacy. I don't think many people use Ebbing Ire, and I think it would only be useful for yellow line players, since those skills generate more threat. I've never had a problem with threat as a red line player, and blue line tanks have a hard enough time generating threat that they wouldn't really need something to reduce threat. Alternately, change the whole Ebbing Ire skill to something else that buffs melee damage.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    Fairly easy fixes that could make champs more desirable for group instances & raids:

    - Raise the Rend Armour Reduction rating on the LI legacy, as well as the Horn of Gondor Physical Mit Reduction debuff LI legacy to be more meaningful (2-3x what it currently is). When Minas Tirith & Dread Terror was endgame, groups wanted this. Single Target DPS wasn't the best, but those skills made champs and everyone else better. Mordor didn't scale those debuffs up as it was before, so it's become much less meaningful.

    - Change True Heroics skill to a standard buff in all trait lines (whether buffing crit chance, melee damage, or attack duration), and change the LI legacy to improve that buff. The current legacy is improves the power it gives, but groups generally aren't looking to champs to replenish power, nor is the buff as powerful as other classes' power replenishment.

    - Change the Exchange of Blows damage LI legacy back to a Great Cleave duration improvement (or cooldown reduction or AoE DPS buff magnitude) legacy. Exchange of Blows is nice, but it doesn't usually provide meaningful DPS output. Giving champs a better burst of DPS would be more helpful to pop when big groups of mobs hit. The only time Exchange of Blows has been useful to me in a boss fight is when the boss has a buff that keeps stacking to the point that it's a one shot kill for any player. If I pop that and run at the boss, I've been able to kamikaze him to kill both of us. But those are pretty few and far between.

    - Greatly increase the damage buff of the Merciful Strike LI legacy. The skill isn't that powerful to begin with and takes trait points to be able to remove the enemy morale % cap and it wipes fervour, so it is not a preferred skill. Making it more powerful may mean that players would actually use if from time to time, especially red line DPS and blue line tanks.

    - Changing the Ebbing Ire LI legacy to a Controlled Burn buff (either to attack speed or melee damage) LI legacy. I don't think many people use Ebbing Ire, and I think it would only be useful for yellow line players, since those skills generate more threat. I've never had a problem with threat as a red line player, and blue line tanks have a hard enough time generating threat that they wouldn't really need something to reduce threat. Alternately, change the whole Ebbing Ire skill to something else that buffs melee damage.
    Concerning the armour/mitigation debuff increase i´m with you, but debuffs should not be the primary reason to take a champion into a group. That should be his damage potential or its ability to tank.

    Where I totally disagree with you is the Exchange of Blows damage LI legacy. You seem to missunderstand what this legacy does. It sounds as if you assume it increases the reflected damage, but it increases the direct damage a champion does. At rank 74 it is at 31.4% which come on top of your damage increase from mastery. With a cap of +200% from mastery Exchange of Blows increases the outgoing damage byI about 10% (a bit less if group buffed) which is a very welcome damage buff. If you want a legacy for Great Cleave duration let´s use any of the other useless legacies like Fight on critical rating, True heroics Power or Hamstring damage.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    - Raise the Rend Armour Reduction rating on the LI legacy, as well as the Horn of Gondor Physical Mit Reduction debuff LI legacy to be more meaningful (2-3x what it currently is). When Minas Tirith & Dread Terror was endgame, groups wanted this. Single Target DPS wasn't the best, but those skills made champs and everyone else better. Mordor didn't scale those debuffs up as it was before, so it's become much less meaningful.
    Rent armour not usefull in red line and i don't like or don't think yellow trait with all point in red are good with or without rent boost buff. Horn of Gondor Physical Mit Reduction debuff LI legacy (debuff for champ isn't our job) is only optionnal instead of duration of crafted horn (5 to 10 s stun are insane on pack). This Li should give some damage buff and not debuff i guess. Take in blue line 7% debuff on wall of blade and huorn débuff ( -20% damage) is better choice and more proefficient.

    In red with duel of champion you can potentially debuff at - 77 % damage ^^;

    - Change True Heroics skill to a standard buff in all trait lines (whether buffing crit chance, melee damage, or attack duration), and change the LI legacy to improve that buff. The current legacy is improves the power it gives, but groups generally aren't looking to champs to replenish power, nor is the buff as powerful as other classes' power replenishment.
    No True Heroics in blue line is an excellent multi taunt (only need a tweek to reduce his cd duration) and an excellent dps boost and débuff (snare or duration attack) in dps and i love the concept to offert différent effect in function of you trait line.

    - Change the Exchange of Blows damage LI legacy back to a Great Cleave duration improvement (or cooldown reduction or AoE DPS buff magnitude) legacy. Exchange of Blows is nice, but it doesn't usually provide meaningful DPS output. Giving champs a better burst of DPS would be more helpful to pop when big groups of mobs hit. The only time Exchange of Blows has been useful to me in a boss fight is when the boss has a buff that keeps stacking to the point that it's a one shot kill for any player. If I pop that and run at the boss, I've been able to kamikaze him to kill both of us. But those are pretty few and far between.
    No no no Exchange of Blows damage LI legacy is a must have you can often use and give you some extra direct damage. Like i said => True Heroics + Exchange of Blows + Controlled Burn + Great Cleave + rent & corn débuff + fervour pot). Great Cleave duration can be used with switching another rune.

    And you are talking about an exploit bug ( rakotas ? ).

    - Greatly increase the damage buff of the Merciful Strike LI legacy. The skill isn't that powerful to begin with and takes trait points to be able to remove the enemy morale % cap and it wipes fervour, so it is not a preferred skill. Making it more powerful may mean that players would actually use if from time to time, especially red line DPS and blue line tanks.
    Merciful Strike is really strong if you take LI legacy and put five point in red line to granted you an automatic critique (use it at full fervour).

    - Changing the Ebbing Ire LI legacy to a Controlled Burn buff (either to attack speed or melee damage) LI legacy. I don't think many people use Ebbing Ire, and I think it would only be useful for yellow line players, since those skills generate more threat. I've never had a problem with threat as a red line player, and blue line tanks have a hard enough time generating threat that they wouldn't really need something to reduce threat. Alternately, change the whole Ebbing Ire skill to something else that buffs melee damage.
    Ebbing Ire is useless and should be replaced. I agree.
    Last edited by Papou_sous_la_montagne; Nov 06 2018 at 04:08 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaijian View Post
    Concerning the armour/mitigation debuff increase i´m with you, but debuffs should not be the primary reason to take a champion into a group. That should be his damage potential or its ability to tank.

    Where I totally disagree with you is the Exchange of Blows damage LI legacy. You seem to missunderstand what this legacy does. It sounds as if you assume it increases the reflected damage, but it increases the direct damage a champion does. At rank 74 it is at 31.4% which come on top of your damage increase from mastery. With a cap of +200% from mastery Exchange of Blows increases the outgoing damage byI about 10% (a bit less if group buffed) which is a very welcome damage buff. If you want a legacy for Great Cleave duration let´s use any of the other useless legacies like Fight on critical rating, True heroics Power or Hamstring damage.
    I'm just trying to find a way to make Champs desireable in groups again. I think there may be an opportunity to make Champs desireable as a combined AoE DPS trash man and buff/debuff. It seems to me that changes to red line champs to make them viable melee DPS for groups would require more significant changes.

    I did misunderstand the Exchange of Blows buff. That's good info to have. I'd be totally happy with changing any of those other LI legacies.

  21. #21
    Thrumfall is very melee unfriendly instance, and fire damage unfriendly as well. Something we sadly saw before also. It is just really awful design/mechanics. I done t1 and t2 only. It is doable but painful to say the least and it takes a long time and determination. For 3 man run... I mean, really? :/ Easy to see that quite a few classes gonna be excluded for the sake of speedy and smoother run.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Papou_sous_la_montagne View Post
    Rent armour not usefull in red line and i don't like or don't think yellow trait with all point in red are good with or without rent boost buff. Horn of Gondor Physical Mit Reduction debuff LI legacy (debuff for champ isn't our job) is only optionnal instead of duration of crafted horn (5 to 10 s stun are insane on pack). This Li should give some damage buff and not debuff i guess. Take in blue line 7% debuff on wall of blade and huorn débuff ( -20% damage) is better choice and more proefficient.

    In red with duel of champion you can potentially debuff at - 77 % damage ^^;
    I'd be fine with a damage buff instead of a mitigation debuff. Just something to make it relevant.


    No True Heroics in blue line is an excellent multi taunt (only need a tweek to reduce his cd duration) and an excellent dps boost and débuff (snare or duration attack) in dps and i love the concept to offert différent effect in function of you trait line.
    Keep the taunt for blue line, but make the buff a melee damage buff, and let the LI increase the amount of melee damage increase.


    No no no Exchange of Blows damage LI legacy is a must have you can often use and give you some extra direct damage. Like i said => True Heroics + Exchange of Blows + Controlled Burn + Great Cleave + rent & corn débuff + fervour pot). Great Cleave duration can be used with switching another rune.

    And you are talking about an exploit bug ( rakotas ? ).
    I misunderstood the Exchange of Blows damage buff. Keep it as it is.

    The Olog-hai Roving Threat in the Wastes has a buff that continues to stack the longer he is in combat. If he gets kited around, the buff stacks up to where he can do 500k damage in one shot. A few times on him, when the buff has stacked high enough and his morale is low enough, I'll get close to him, taunt him, and hit Exchange of Blows to activate the damage reflect. It's not an exploit, the buff is stacking as it should, and the skill works at it should. I remember doing it to Rakothas once when he had a stacking buff.

    Merciful Strike is really strong if you take LI legacy and put five point in red line to granted you an automatic critique (use it at full fervour).

    Ebbing Ire is useless and should be replaced. I agree.
    I disagree on Merciful Strike. It's well behind Ferocious, Devastating, and Ferocious Strikes on damage, and for a skill that can only be used when the enemy is below a certain morale %, it should be at least as powerful. They should make it much more powerful. If they feel it's a little OP, they can extend the cooldown. They could take the Ebbing Ire LI legacy and replace it with a Merciful Strike legacy.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    Keep the taunt for blue line, but make the buff a melee damage buff, and let the LI increase the amount of melee damage increase.
    In red and yellow line there is already a damage buff (+10% Critical Hit Chance or +10% Melee Damage). Did you read your skill ? But i agree with LI increase this damage nice idea.

    Rakothas once when he had a stacking buff.
    You admit exploiting ^^

    I disagree on Merciful Strike. It's well behind Ferocious, Devastating, and Ferocious Strikes on damage, and for a skill that can only be used when the enemy is below a certain morale %, it should be at least as powerful. They should make it much more powerful. If they feel it's a little OP, they can extend the cooldown. They could take the Ebbing Ire LI legacy and replace it with a Merciful Strike legacy.
    But in your rota when you did Ferocious, Devastating, and Ferocious Strikes and under 50% you should be able to use fervor pot (+45% devast for 30s + 5 fervour) and use Merciful Strike with 100% crit chance.

    I'd be fine with a damage buff instead of a mitigation debuff. Just something to make it relevant.
    Huorn LI buff should be to give % damage buff to all member of party/raid for example. Rent should stay a debuffing but with X percent penetrate all mitig or just physical mitig.
    Last edited by Papou_sous_la_montagne; Nov 08 2018 at 10:33 AM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Athens/Greece
    Posts
    262
    They should give the champions a 10-15% more dps for single target and fire damage type scrolls for our weapons.Hunters and fire rune keepers can benefit from LM buffs a lot with the fire damage we need that also.
    Since Mordor most of the instances are ether melee unfriendly,semi melee unfriendly or our main setup the AOE dps dosnt needed so we need those changes that i mention to can keep up and the developers from now on they should have in mind every class in this game when they have to design a 6 man instance or a 12 man raid cause this game is not only playing by RKs and hunters.
    Thank god that they bring that skirmish event and that reminds me again why i love so much this class.At least in there i felt useful again a feeling that i had lost since Throne raid 2 years ago...
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter Rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Narzul Lore Master-Ruarin Guardian-Gorgeous Minstrel
    Borzol Reaver Rank 12-Mauhnakh BA Rank 9-Varcolac Stalker Rank 9
    Sumnor Spider Rank 8-Orcapo Defiler Rank 8.

  25. #25
    I’ve only skimmed through, but a lot of your responses are on the wrong track to begin with. A few things:
    -Adding a strong, non-stacking debuff skill to a class shoes that class in as a one-off support (you wind up with a single spot available for your class in any group, but you’re far outclassed by cappies and LMs for that spot.) Bad idea.
    -Buffing champ dps is also a bad solution, 5-10% is not going to magically fix everything, look at burgs.
    -increasing base mits is a bad idea unless done through stat allocations so that Tmit is gained from a stat.

    Overall, it’s not just champs either. Captains, Burgs, Guardians, Champs, wardens, and Bears are all very weak melee dps classes. The simple solution would be to outright nerf all ranged and tactical dps by probably ~50% so that there’s a trade-off for being melee dps. The main issue is that it won’t ever happen because the numerous ranged dps would outright quit over it. “If my RK isn’t doing 10 burgs/guards/bears/cappies in dps, it’s not worth playing”

    Then the exceptionally skilled ranged dps will still top out over melee, but every quest geared RK won’t do double the dps of an instance geared melee class.

    Wardens and champs are best-off at the moment regarding melee. If you think your dps and mits suck, what do you think it’s like for the other classes?

 

 
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