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  1. #1

    Thumbs up U23 Initial Observations

    We’ve had a chance to test drive the new model and can share the following nontechnical observations:

    Creeps are certainly in a much better spot (for now). A solo can, once again take an OP in less than 2 minutes, which is about where it used to be pre-Mordor. The Freep NPCs have lower morale across the board, but their damage is not easily ignored- which seems like a good place too. The Delving bosses have come back to (Middle)Earth, and with half a raid, all three buffs can be secured with a little effort vs the 15 - 20 min slog it was. Again, seems about the right place... We also did an Osgiliath circuit and note that the Freeps that you have to a fight are similarly scaled, easier to kill, but damage seems about right. The birds, worms, slugs etc are all still at 100 (or lower) which if FINE by me! Not sure if it was intentional, though.

    I had a chance to 1:1 my R10 BA against a non-scaled 120 Hunter and 120 RK played by an elite Freep. I won 75% against the Hunter and 90% agains the RK- although the battles were far from the one-shot wonders of recent memory. Each fight was engaging, some closer than others etc. Both of us gave it our best shot, using consumables and corruptions etc. Some fights were static, others moved onto the landscape. I suspect that once the new Freep Gear drops, these fights will likely get closer to 50/50.

    I also had a chance to lead a small Froup vs a Croup (3:6) and essentially were slaughtered most rounds. We managed a few kills with a Hunter, Cappy and Minny against a balanced Croup comprised of a warg, spider, BA, Reaver, Defiler and WL. Following Mordor, these fights would have been closer to 50/50 or the Freeps would win if the Hunter could attack from stealth. I suspect equal numbers on each side may result in more fulfilling combat.

    So, just as Vastin predicted, the Creeps have a clear advantage that will likely erode as the new gear is released. Freeps can still have fun, but will not be able to take on experienced Creeps unless they have similar numbers or have better skill.

    Finally, the base Creep situation is fine, but as many have noted, lots of the Creep skills (like Point Defence buffs) need to be scaled. Perhaps these can be fixed coincident with the Freeps getting their gear to keep things nearer each other than in the past?

    I look forward to hearing your observations based on your play experience and ask you to refrain from speculation or opinion not based on that actual experience. Thanks, and see you in the game!
    Aakvanark/Corwelleon

  2. #2
    I took my lvl 120 RK out for some test 1v1s. I did get a teal 120 lvl cloak, but that's been my only gear upgrade. Most fights were with 4 red OPs. I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes anymore. I did use a tome of defense and a damage buff. Most fights were all-outs.

    I won several against creeps that were r5 and lower pretty easily. I had several 1v1s against a BA that was r7 or r8. The fights were close, but I lost 3 or 4 of those. Fought a few good wargs, and went something like 1 out of 10 in those fights. A half-dozen fights with a reaver, and a half-dozen loses.... none of which were close. Still, it's nice to have to really fight for my life again, and to have to use more than 4 or 5 skills to make a fight fun. I suspect when freeps gear up a bit, fights will be pretty close. Raid geared freeps will still have the upper hand, but it won't be ez-mode anymore.
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  3. #3
    Check out Oelles post about new statnumbers. I sure hope SSG didnt turn EM into a pvezone for creeps.

  4. #4
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    my favorite part about update 23 is the freep tears.

    After something 2 years of creeps being one shot, corps jumped, and told to "git gud", freeps are now complaining that they can't one and two shot creeps anymore and are refusing to come to the moors. It has been so much fun watching burgs come out try to one shot creeps only to see them fail to take 1/3 of the moral, instantly hips and log.




    On a balance note, hunters seem to still be in a good spot with their spam-able slow against reavers and wargs. Some of the 1v1s i've watched go either way really. Yet freeps are still complaining that creeps are op when in reality it is they have no clue how to play because they have been easymoding all this time.
    "You can't have your Kate and Eat her too!"

    Katelia Rk 11 Lm, Peppermintt Rk 12 Warg, Katetastrophe Rk 12 WL, Kateaclysm Rk 14 defiler

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    On a balance note, hunters seem to still be in a good spot with their spam-able slow against reavers and wargs. Some of the 1v1s i've watched go either way really. Yet freeps are still complaining that creeps are op when in reality it is they have no clue how to play because they have been easymoding all this time.
    I'm shocked SHOCKED that freeps would complain that their year of easymode 1-shots is over. Oh wait, the only freeps left are the type of people that would get any sort of enjoyment from a year of easymode 1-shots. Nvm.
    Team Milt.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    my favorite part about update 23 is the freep tears.

    After something 2 years of creeps being one shot, corps jumped, and told to "git gud", freeps are now complaining that they can't one and two shot creeps anymore and are refusing to come to the moors. It has been so much fun watching burgs come out try to one shot creeps only to see them fail to take 1/3 of the moral, instantly hips and log.




    On a balance note, hunters seem to still be in a good spot with their spam-able slow against reavers and wargs. Some of the 1v1s i've watched go either way really. Yet freeps are still complaining that creeps are op when in reality it is they have no clue how to play because they have been easymoding all this time.

    To be fair: i dont see many freep tears,neither on the forums or ingame.
    Most pvp freeps are simply still busy with the super enormous grind unless the spend 100€ to gear on day 1.


    At least i am Looking forward to pvp again on freep while having a challenge and without oneshotting everything.

  7. #7
    It is most definitely possible to successfully play freep in PVP this update....

    a freep group of 6 has already broken out of the GV camp and successfully fought off 2x their numbers in creep shufflers.

    Freeps are going to have to get used to organizing their defenses and burst.... you can no longer expect to just waltz on out of GV with no heals/debuffs/defences and 1-shot your way to victory.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  8. #8
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    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    ...corps jumped, and told to "git gud"
    God, I wish recorded our adventures...
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    Honestly I can't tell, you're gonna have to give it more time because freeps are getting destroyed RN, but this could easily not be the case in a month (all the freeps that are getting destroyed are scaled/ horribly gear as it should be tho)

    I would honestly say 5 tho, at this moment in time, pvp is where it should be.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    Maybe if you didn't make the grind take 2 months to complete we could actually say if it was or not. At the moment no freeps are geared enough yet to compete

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    At first, in lvl 115 gear, I got destroyed! That is pretty much to be expected, though. I'm not patient with grinds, so I got some teal gear and slotted weak essences in it. Results? I'd say it's about a three with the setup I have now. To stand any chance, I pretty much have to use every skill I have. Doing that gives me a chance. I expect that as freeps get better gear and essences, it might be very well balanced. I'll say this, even right now, it is an improvement over where it was!
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    It's hard to say because so few freeps are geared and we don't know what the new gear/essences will do. This is in part because freep gearing is quite grindy if you don't use the store. But I would speculate it'll be a 4 or 5 once freeps get their gear. But it WILL need to be revisited when raid armour is released as some of the bonuses are often enough to swing the balance pendulum significantly.

    (Retired... Maybe un-retired?) Arkenstone: Immanitas R12 Burg, Gorbat R12 Reaver, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
    Crickhollow: Orphluk R9 Warg, Orphelun-1 R8 RK. -The Blood Hand.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    I’ve had some great close fights with really strong players. I’ve won a few and lost more, which is a good sign that we are moving in the right direction. Like a few have said in-game, this update is showing who’s good and who never had to learn their class. Once freeps gear up I think the strong (on both sides) will continue to dominate and the weak/unskilled will be forced to learn. Some classes seem to match up really closely so I’d say on first impressions it’s definitely a 5. Hopefully everything can be reassessed once the full raid gear/essences are in play.
    ~Anaxander R9 Warden, Baranthor R5 Hunter, Skartan R2 Guardian~ Elendilmir
    ~Karukh R10 Warg, Prisonshank R6 Reaver~ Elendilmir
    **Mac User**

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    Against geared freeps? 5 would be the closest guess... there are so few geared freeps out right now.

    Biggest reason that i'd put it at 5 is because freeps can no longer kill creeps in 1 hit, and a good balance between defense and offense is needed to be effective on both sides.


    Freeps retain their advantage of having more advanced and modern abilities, but creeps are no longer rendered entirely impotent by those abilities.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  16. #16
    I kind of think balance will hit a sweet spot when freeps get teal gear and jewelry, and have essences 1 level up from 'weak'. It's really not that far off at the moment. That said, set bonuses have the potential to unbalance things if too OP.
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    FYI: the game's been a totally borked 1 for a long, long time now (in the freeps' favour) and apparently no one cared.
    Team Milt.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    This is a very premature question and you will not receive a satisfactory answer because it is too early in the update to determine PvP balance.

    1) Not everybody is done with the new landscape content on freepside. Many of the freeps who are PvPing now are either vastly undergeared or upscaled freeps. That is why they are being camped at Glan Vraig (the freep oneshots).
    2) The essences available to freeps at the moment are yellow T11 essences (barterable for 2500 Embers at Skarhald) and the purple T12 ones are less common since they are gated behind RNG drops.
    3) Most freeps are not going to the Ettenmoors to PvP yet because of PvE content/gearing not being completed. It will take approximately a few weeks before you will see a healthy number of geared freeps going to PvP on a regular basis.
    4) There are no set bonus gear at 120 cap yet, since the raid is yet to be released. Set bonuses are freeps' bread-and-butter. They can drastically influence a class in PvP like warden's DoT/HoT pulse bonus or captain's Oathbreaker's Shame reset to name a few.
    5) The itemization options that freeps have now are also very poor. Many players are struggling to find the right combination of gear that offers a decent amount of mitigations, combined with critical rating and mastery/morale. Not only that, but there are less essence slots to go around on your gear than in the previous update, if I recall correctly. This issue may be mitigated with the addition of teal essences or new raid gear.

    All of these factors combine to create the impression that creeps are wildly overpowered at the moment, but it's too early to make these kinds of judgments. As many have already pointed out in other threads, creepside base mitigations are very poor, on some classes more than others, and need to be scaled up. If you wear 0 tactical mitigation corruptions on the warg, you have 0% tactical mitigations, compared to last update where a warg would have around 30% tactical mitigations without any corruptions invested into that particular stat.

    All in all, it would be more appropriate if this question was asked a month or two from now. It's like asking "who's winning?" 5 minutes after the start of a marathon.
    For what it's worth, I'll say that right now PvMP is at a 3-4 on that scale, but I think it can go to a 2 or maybe even a 1, depending on what gear becomes available from freepside PvE in later updates.
    Last edited by QueenArleth; Oct 14 2018 at 06:35 PM.

  19. #19
    i also wont be out till i'm end game geared, till you compare creeps vs end game geared freep groups, not 1v1, its kind of a moot point.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    i also wont be out till i'm end game geared, till you compare creeps vs end game geared freep groups, not 1v1, its kind of a moot point.
    EXACTLY 100% THIS.


    People giving feedback from 1vs1s of store bought goods of 400-500k moraled creeps and freeps not geared, not 2 shotting, is not measuring ANYTHING.

    Someones already said they had a full froup out of GV rolling x2 there numbers of shufflers. LMAO!
    This game will always be about the zerg/shuffle/focusfire/group dynamics......which we will not begin to examine until freeps come out and creeps come out from leveling their freeps.
    Jimi's Mash

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    The Ettenmoors have been quiet with Freeps not visiting much. It is nice, however, not having trolls and spies polluting the OOC channel. Those player characters that do wander off the steps of GV generally don’t last long. But as suggested by previous posters, this may very well reflect the unfair advantage that Freeps have long enjoyed and taken for granted, resulting in players now not understanding their own classes skill rotations. Let them eat cake.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    It's too early to ask this question. Four weeks from now would be good. By then the Raid is live and everyone will see the stats on the gear. Gathering a consensus right now and acting on it will undue progress made by Vastin, being the byproduct of the core stat changes.


    Creeps are good for now and far better then 2 weeks ago, so there is that. Perhaps enough to withstand until Creepside gets a closer look at the individual classes in relation to balance.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    God, I wish recorded our adventures...
    Exactly what we need, another video proving freeps are op. Haven't seen you step foot in the moors ... scared?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    So on a scale of 1-5, 1 being "OMG PvMP is totally borked" and 5 being "PvMP is exactly where it should be at the moment", with the focus being on Creep vs. Freep balance, where would you put it and why?
    Far too early to tell or even to CONSIDER making any adjustments to Creep/Freep balance. Need more time for more Freeps to get geared out fully, and even then better to wait for the raid content and gear to be released and disseminated before taking a look at balance. I will say, though, I've been largely put off gearing my Freep given that I always seem to get purple Warden gear with no essence slots from chests in the new instances... and I play a Hunter. :/ In fact, the most useful gear drops I've gotten have been from scaled instances... not the new content (where I've gotten practically nothing except Warden agility gear - again, all purple with no essence slots). Can't even turn the useless gear I get into Embers. Go figure. :/

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahloo View Post
    Exactly what we need, another video proving freeps are op. Haven't seen you step foot in the moors ... scared?
    I mean, completely broken and OP freeps when she (Kate) chased me around the map for 10 minutes with her zerg-squad, which I managed to bait into dying by jump of a cliff

    I still have Oathies waiting for you, Kate
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

 

 
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