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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ok folks, the way Creep skill magnitude is calculated right now is currently tied fairly heavily to normal Mob damage. IE, if I make changes to the freep game balance, you guys get changed just as much, unavoidably. That's why you keep getting arbitrarily buffed or nerfed for no apparent reason as we make endgame balance changes to the main game.

    That obviously needs to change - there is no way I can effectively balance your stats while they are tied to NPC damage rates - but happily it IS something that I can now reasonably fix over the next few patches, so that I can manage creep balance more or less completely separately from NPC mob balance.

    But in order to get those skills locked into their own progressions and in the right place I'm gonna need constructive feedback and data, and I see a whole lot of 'deleted' posts in this thread currently, and that won't help.

    The best start would be screenshots of your skill damage tooltips from the *initial* U23 release if you've got them lying around. They'll be handy for recalibrating your skills as I decouple them from the landscape mob damage progressions.

    - Vastin
    Cool stuff. Is there a plan to do the same for Freeps to an extent? Because until Freepside gears separately from PvE (and has a trait point limiter, etc.), PvE will continue to break PvP update after update.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    AFK in Gramsfoot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urundus View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to make a new official Dev thread about this?


    I'd be happy to help but, "screenshots of damage tooltips" sounds a bit vague to me.
    Do you want base tooltips? Eg. r0, no corruptions, no buffs?
    Glass tooltips?
    Actual damage values on something like dummies with a set trait configuration?

    In order to compare we should at least have some baseline IMO.

    @Vastin ^this.
    I still have screenshots of every reaver skill from beta build 6(took them on the 19th of September, pretty sure build 6 was live then) with no traits. So if nothing changed tooltip-wise between beta build 6 of Update 23 and Update 23 itself I can upload those. But just like Urundus said, asking for damage tooltips without specification of the situation is pretty vague. There are almost always buffs involved (Outposts buffs, rank buffs, traits and consumeble buffs). For example the screenshots I have of reaver skills are on a r15 reaver and if I remember correctly 2 red outpost. For the complete 'base' tooltips you would need r15 creeps without the ranked buffs and 0 red outposts. That's some bullroarer stuff.

    Mulatic
    R13 Reaver
    Arkenstone

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Cool stuff. Is there a plan to do the same for Freeps to an extent? Because until Freepside gears separately from PvE (and has a trait point limiter, etc.), PvE will continue to break PvP update after update.
    PvMP used to require the use of Audacity gear, which in and of itself was a nerf to offensive stats but required for the ~20% damage in order to be viable. The balance point shouldn't be creeps vs fully PVE geared freeps, but in fact audacity wearing freeps. This also limited the OPness of Raid set bonuses unless they were willing to make massive defensive tradeoffs. THIS is a huge part of why U22 failed so massively.

    Secondly, there are certain PVE skills that have no base of requirement in PvMP. I.E. Captains Last Stand, they literally can not die for a given amount of time, which is absolutely absurd. Skills like this should be greyed out entering the Moors. What is the difference between a Defiler skill that can heal 500% of a Creeps morale vs a Minstrel heal which can heal 100% of a freeps morale? ZERO effective difference, yet the Minstrel healing remains. Once you decouple pve gear, and pve specific skills, THEN we can begin to find balance and perhaps THEN old players will return and subscribe. While you let one side dominate with obliviousness you will continue to see population numbers drop on both sides. Good players don't want a face roll, and good players don't want to be killed in less than 3 skills then told "Learn to play"..
    ~Anaxander R9 Warden, Baranthor R5 Hunter, Skartan R2 Guardian~ Elendilmir
    ~Karukh R10 Warg, Prisonshank R6 Reaver~ Elendilmir
    **Mac User**

  4. #104
    It was really good to hear that you're looking into decoupling creep damage from NPC damage. That gives you a lot more flexibility. As for creep damage...……. I would not make any changes there at the moment. Some creep classes are a bit OP, but that's against under-geared freeps. At this point in time, that's the way it should be.

    P.S. I see some comments about going back to using audacity gear. That would solve so many issues. /signed on that!
    Last edited by Nouri; Oct 20 2018 at 09:29 AM.
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  5. #105
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    It was really good to hear that you're looking into decoupling creep damage from NPC damage. That gives you a lot more flexibility. As for creep damage...……. I would not make any changes there at the moment. Some creep classes are a bit OP, but that's against under-geared freeps. At this point in time, that's the way it should be.

    P.S. I see some comments about going back to using audacity gear. That would solve so many issues. /signed on that!
    Going back to audacity gear would definitely be easier to balance and would also mean that the moors wouldn't be dead for 1-2 months after every update. I am in favor of lowering the price of the gear as well. This way the bar to enter the moors lowers while.
    PvMP should revolve around skill and knowledge of your class and the class(es) you are fighting, not around what gear you're wearing or how much TP you've spent.

    Mulatic
    R13 Reaver
    Arkenstone

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by galrodan View Post
    Going back to audacity gear would definitely be easier to balance and would also mean that the moors wouldn't be dead for 1-2 months after every update. I am in favor of lowering the price of the gear as well. This way the bar to enter the moors lowers while.
    PvMP should revolve around skill and knowledge of your class and the class(es) you are fighting, not around what gear you're wearing or how much TP you've spent.

    Mulatic
    R13 Reaver
    Arkenstone

    ^^ Exactly!!! You'd have five times as many freeps in the Moors as you have now! It will likely be at least three weeks until you see freeps, in numbers, roaming the map. It would be so much easier to balance between creep vs freeps w/ aud armor. And, it would give Vastin a very effective way to make changes to PvP w/o affecting PvE. It is so for sure the way to go!
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ok folks, the way Creep skill magnitude is calculated right now is currently tied fairly heavily to normal Mob damage. IE, if I make changes to the freep game balance, you guys get changed just as much, unavoidably. That's why you keep getting arbitrarily buffed or nerfed for no apparent reason as we make endgame balance changes to the main game.

    That obviously needs to change - there is no way I can effectively balance your stats while they are tied to NPC damage rates - but happily it IS something that I can now reasonably fix over the next few patches, so that I can manage creep balance more or less completely separately from NPC mob balance.

    But in order to get those skills locked into their own progressions and in the right place I'm gonna need constructive feedback and data, and I see a whole lot of 'deleted' posts in this thread currently, and that won't help.

    The best start would be screenshots of your skill damage tooltips from the *initial* U23 release if you've got them lying around. They'll be handy for recalibrating your skills as I decouple them from the landscape mob damage progressions.

    - Vastin
    If you're going to dedicate this level of time to creep balance, please consider updating all pvmp freep gear. Add class / pvmp specific set bonuses to it and find a way to stop pve gear from making its way in.
    Pls fix me.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    729
    Quote Originally Posted by galrodan View Post
    Going back to audacity gear would definitely be easier to balance and would also mean that the moors wouldn't be dead for 1-2 months after every update. I am in favor of lowering the price of the gear as well. This way the bar to enter the moors lowers while.
    PvMP should revolve around skill and knowledge of your class and the class(es) you are fighting, not around what gear you're wearing or how much TP you've spent.

    Mulatic
    R13 Reaver
    Arkenstone
    Sadly friend, you cannot monetize it like a new, lootbox-driven PVE update can, which is why it won't happen.
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    Sadly friend, you cannot monetize it like a new, lootbox-driven PVE update can, which is why it won't happen.
    Back to a monthly subscription we must go i guess xD

    Mulatic
    R13 Reaver
    Arkenstone

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    Sadly friend, you cannot monetize it like a new, lootbox-driven PVE update can, which is why it won't happen.
    You can actually, like creeps get Sigils in lootboxes so too can freeps which give tokens to trade for audacity armor. They are creative enough to find a way.
    ~Anaxander R9 Warden, Baranthor R5 Hunter, Skartan R2 Guardian~ Elendilmir
    ~Karukh R10 Warg, Prisonshank R6 Reaver~ Elendilmir
    **Mac User**

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ok folks, the way Creep skill magnitude is calculated right now is currently tied fairly heavily to normal Mob damage. IE, if I make changes to the freep game balance, you guys get changed just as much, unavoidably. That's why you keep getting arbitrarily buffed or nerfed for no apparent reason as we make endgame balance changes to the main game.

    That obviously needs to change - there is no way I can effectively balance your stats while they are tied to NPC damage rates - but happily it IS something that I can now reasonably fix over the next few patches, so that I can manage creep balance more or less completely separately from NPC mob balance.

    But in order to get those skills locked into their own progressions and in the right place I'm gonna need constructive feedback and data, and I see a whole lot of 'deleted' posts in this thread currently, and that won't help.

    The best start would be screenshots of your skill damage tooltips from the *initial* U23 release if you've got them lying around. They'll be handy for recalibrating your skills as I decouple them from the landscape mob damage progressions.

    - Vastin
    This is probably the single most inspiring post I've seen by a Dev in >6 years here. Especially you saying the next few patches, not 'in a future update.'

    That being said... There are so many problems with suggesting we provide you with Screenshots of an old build, with wildly different corruption/outpost/consumable options making the stats show whatever we want them to. Once you have the system in place for adjusting creep values independently of pve mobs, can we just have a few beta rounds to provide feedback instead? Its not like getting back to the status of U23 was some high point in balance we want to emulate, it had positive reviews because it was better than awful, and was the first time creeps had seen any attention in over a year.

    I'll also echo the sentiment that the least obtrusive and most time efficient way to get freeps on a more manageable playing field (even among themselves) is to bring back PvP armor for them. LIs are their own animal, and specific skill tweaks just for the moors is a pipe dream. But greying out all pve gear in the moors, giving freeps (free, unusable outside the moors) purple quality armour/jewelry, and then commendations locked teal armour and jewelry would do great things to lock people into manageable stat ranges. Give 3 teal sets per class, and ~4 jewelry and cloak options per slot, per mainstat. This should be enough to allow meaningful build diversity while keeping the upper and lower limits of freep stats in check for PvP.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwha View Post
    If you're going to dedicate this level of time to creep balance, please consider updating all pvmp freep gear. Add class / pvmp specific set bonuses to it and find a way to stop pve gear from making its way in.
    /signed. Returning the -incoming dmg on audacity would be a surefire way to bring aud gear back into play and would make balancing the playing field far easier. But if you don't put some sort of set bonuses on the gear then people will still use raid armour. 75-85-95 aud armour was actually enjoyable to get and use and for almost every class would outperform pve gear. Balance was also better during those caps than it was at any point during 115 cap.

    (Retired... Maybe un-retired?) Arkenstone: Immanitas R12 Burg, Gorbat R12 Reaver, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
    Crickhollow: Orphluk R9 Warg, Orphelun-1 R8 RK. -The Blood Hand.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
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    203
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    The best start would be screenshots of your skill damage tooltips from the *initial* U23 release if you've got them lying around. They'll be handy for recalibrating your skills as I decouple them from the landscape mob damage progressions.

    - Vastin
    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone had randomly or pre-emptively screenshotted all of their skill tooltips at the beginning of the U23 update. I, like most people, screenshotted the post-patch tooltips, which were just reverted. Is there no other way to retrieve this information? After logging in after the update, it seems like most of the problematic skills that I spotted were toned down back to their original numbers or close to it, but who among us is actually keeping track of these numbers?

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    This is probably the single most inspiring post I've seen by a Dev in >6 years here. Especially you saying the next few patches, not 'in a future update.'
    Vastin is the same dev who promised to do some "Fast Balance Passes" over the course of a few weeks on Bullroarer, to get PvMP balance in order for Mordor. He left creeps in a broken state, and Mordor had the worst balance that LotRO has ever seen (this is a subjective statement, but you can ask anyone to have it verified).

    Here is a quote from that post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    I will be using a bracketing method, so expect some slightly wild swings on Bullroarer as I work to re-discover some equilibrium. It'll be fun, and hopefully with your feedback we can get the ettenmoors back into a competitive shape.
    Promises, promises... What do you think happened? (Spoiler warning: not what was promised.)

    It's great for you that you find this post "inspiring", but I would urge you to assess the situation realistically. The same goes for everyone in this thread. If PvMP currently feels like it's in a decent shape, that is an accident. Enjoy it while it lasts. But don't get your hopes up for this game.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  15. #115
    1st thing, they said they were doing big changes under the hood, which they did.

    2nd thing, they said to expect wild swings in damage, skills etc due to unforseen stuff, which happened

    3rd thing, they said once they get these changes made, it would be easier to see just what is going on and why, and be able to make changes on the fly, faster and easier, which LOOKS like they may be able to do.

    lets not be hasty and just give them usefull feedback and not the usual pvp troll mumbo jumbo and hopefully some old players return to pvp and new players can check it out.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
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    87
    Thread: " U23 Initial Observations "

    the subject becomes personal, as every day ...

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    1st thing, they said they were doing big changes under the hood, which they did.

    2nd thing, they said to expect wild swings in damage, skills etc due to unforseen stuff, which happened

    3rd thing, they said once they get these changes made, it would be easier to see just what is going on and why, and be able to make changes on the fly, faster and easier, which LOOKS like they may be able to do.

    lets not be hasty and just give them usefull feedback and not the usual pvp troll mumbo jumbo and hopefully some old players return to pvp and new players can check it out.
    you realize that all of those things happened because they were messing with npc curves in general right? everything that happened to creeps was an unintended byproduct of that
    so... dont take it to mean that they are actively working on pvp now, they arent. they are trying to fine-tune freepside pve

    you still have a long ways to go before you get dedicated pvp changes

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Texas
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    612
    @ VASTIN re: Defiler skills


    Curse of the lethargic heart did not scale and is debuffing the same values as before.
    Curse of the deadly sorrows did not scale and is debuffing the same values as before.


    Plague of flies has not scaled. They are roughly 68k moral and are easily oneshot by freeps. They do roughly 559-1473 common damage. They drain a measly 60-90 power returning 252 to the defiler.
    ex: Kateaclysm scored a hit with Plague of Flies on Casinoari for 87 damage to Power.
    The power drain and moral absolutely need to be increased dramatically for this skill.

    also the aggro for flies is wonky. they do not always attack the target you select and will randomly go where they want, would be great if you could fix this.
    "You can't have your Kate and Eat her too!"

    Katelia Rk 11 Lm, Peppermintt Rk 12 Warg, Katetastrophe Rk 12 WL, Kateaclysm Rk 14 defiler

 

 
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