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  1. #1

    changes to legendary items in u24 +

    A quick question although the grind for anfalas scrolls and starlit crystals might seem to to be a royal pain in the #### to many. What do the devs have as options to replace that grind with? . To my mind and thinking only an utter major overhall of the class deed structure will replace the complicated legendary system without reducing lotro to a simple game of Kitty island . As a long time player I would like to hear the general thoughts from the players both good and bad
    All that glitters isn,t gold.

  2. #2
    The short answer is, we don't know what long term plans SSG has for LI's.

    I agree that simply adding more XP levels to imbued LI's and expecting players to grind for an ever increasing number of crystals and scrolls is not viable, especially for players that are starting to use imbued LI's now and haven't had the time to earn scrolls/crystals that players who've been in the game for longer have had. I've suggested that the max number of locked XP levels on an imbued LI should be capped at around 20 XP levels. On an LI with 7 legacies, that's 140 scrolls compared to around 200 scrolls right now (and about to go up with 2 more locked XP levels in U23). If a player uses enough crystals/scrolls to have less than 20 locked XP levels on the LI and new XP levels are added, the LI should never have more than 20 locked XP levels (per legacy) at any time. I'm not saying 20 levels is a perfect cap, I'm open to suggestions for a different number, but if SSG think they can simply add more and more locked levels to imbued LI's as they are right now without any player pushback, they're kidding themselves.

    There's another issue with imbued LI's as well, damage scaling. The new stat scaling system being added in U23 affects other gear (armour, jewellery, non-LI weapons, food, potions, combat scrolls, etc) but not LI damage. LI damage scaling should follow the same curve as scaling for other stats, but right now it doesn't. An SSG dev, Vastin, acknowledged that LI damage scaling has problems in a U23 beta test thread yesterday, discussing LI damage in PvMP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Absolutely correct. Broken as hell for LI's. I can now see that it's been like that for a long time - it just got worse with each progressive update.

    We fixed some level scaling bugs for regular gear, but unfortunately LI scaling still apparently has... issues, and those issues were exacerbated when I extended the LI damage tables well into the future. Basically the scaling system is doing some kind of bogus lookup for LI's and grabbing some arbitrary level value from somewhere well above the level it is supposed to. In other words, because LI damage uses its own unique level progression, the scaling system doesn't know what to do with it.

    On the plus side, the quick fix is easy - all those theoretical 'future' LI damage values I added are now the same as cap, so it doesn't matter where it looks up, it should never go above the 120 (LI 58) cap value (for now).

    Real Fix - engineering has to slog through the scaling code and figure out how to make it play nice with LIs.

    -Vastin
    So, my interpretation of Vastin's comments is, SSG are using a hard cap for LI damage scaling in U23 to force LI damage to be more in line with other gear stat scaling. The longer term solution is to look at the stat scaling code and make LI's use it correctly. This doesn't affect the crystal/scroll grind which I definitely agree also needs to be addressed but I seriously doubt we will see any change to that in the short term, SSG are busy right now with a new zone and other technical changes to get ready and launch in the next few weeks
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  3. #3
    I would already be happy if the Scrolls of Enhancement could be stacked up to 50 or 100 items like other perks (eg the Edhelharn tokens or food), and even more if they could be read in bulk like reputation items, stopping at the cap when necessary. This would reduce the amount of stress on the carpal system by 90%.


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  4. #4
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    Completely agree with valgorlim
    Tho i dont believe the company is having a change in the back of their mind.....
    this grind brings cash n keeps players time occupied
    remember, every time they changed a grind was for the worse for us!
    Back in the days before the MoM lunch, we were promised that the LIs will lvl up with us
    it was the start of an endless grinding........
    especially when they introdused the Star-Lyt
    after this every few lvls we had to decon our hard earned LIs n make new.........
    then they said, get the 100 lvl LIs, imbue them n youll never need to start over!
    Hurray! we said......
    worst grinding came with the numerous need in scrolls n star-lyts..........
    what SSG should do is free the lvls at all after imbuing a LI
    3 star-lyts per LI n the needed scrolls to max out the tiers of the legacies are enough!!!
    remove the free star-lyts n scrolls from quest rewards if you like,
    but all the lvls after imbuing should be free!
    n ofc i agree with Polymachos scrolls should stuck to more than 10, maybe 50 or 100!
    you cant have the ores n igots stucked to 500 while those scrolls r stuck in 10.......
    Last edited by Valakircka; Sep 29 2018 at 04:01 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethB View Post
    The short answer is, we don't know what long term plans SSG has for LI's.

    I agree that simply adding more XP levels to imbued LI's and expecting players to grind for an ever increasing number of crystals and scrolls is not viable, especially for players that are starting to use imbued LI's now and haven't had the time to earn scrolls/crystals that players who've been in the game for longer have had. I've suggested that the max number of locked XP levels on an imbued LI should be capped at around 20 XP levels. On an LI with 7 legacies, that's 140 scrolls compared to around 200 scrolls right now (and about to go up with 2 more locked XP levels in U23). If a player uses enough crystals/scrolls to have less than 20 locked XP levels on the LI and new XP levels are added, the LI should never have more than 20 locked XP levels (per legacy) at any time. I'm not saying 20 levels is a perfect cap, I'm open to suggestions for a different number, but if SSG think they can simply add more and more locked levels to imbued LI's as they are right now without any player pushback, they're kidding themselves.

    There's another issue with imbued LI's as well, damage scaling. The new stat scaling system being added in U23 affects other gear (armour, jewellery, non-LI weapons, food, potions, combat scrolls, etc) but not LI damage. LI damage scaling should follow the same curve as scaling for other stats, but right now it doesn't. An SSG dev, Vastin, acknowledged that LI damage scaling has problems in a U23 beta test thread yesterday, discussing LI damage in PvMP.



    So, my interpretation of Vastin's comments is, SSG are using a hard cap for LI damage scaling in U23 to force LI damage to be more in line with other gear stat scaling. The longer term solution is to look at the stat scaling code and make LI's use it correctly. This doesn't affect the crystal/scroll grind which I definitely agree also needs to be addressed but I seriously doubt we will see any change to that in the short term, SSG are busy right now with a new zone and other technical changes to get ready and launch in the next few weeks
    Any game content after level 100 becomes extremely easy since you can immediately max your damage output save for a couple of trait tree points.
    The other main issue is when making a fresh alt or when game changes forces you to make new imbued LIs. The cost is absurd, in time and game cash. Are we up to 20 star-lits per LI?
    That is, aside from the fact that imbuing LIs is a largely unintuitive process.

    Let us get proper LIs again, slot 3a/SA and work in raids for FA.

  6. #6
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    They should let the LI level with the char x rank (3-5) of the legacies per charlevel past 100.
    Level 100 legs 5ranks dps 3= level 38.
    Level 110 legs 50 ranks dps 30= Level 380.
    And so on. As an example but this would secure that every weapon of the same age has for everyone the same level.
    5 crystalls and 10 scrolls/legacy to Upgrade your li for one age 3rd to 2nd and the same number for 2nd to 1st.
    This would ease the balance cause nobody has overleveled LIs.
    For the change freeze current overleveled LIs till they will get further levels for the new charlevel.

  7. #7
    legendary items consist of several stats.
    From lvl50 to 100, the only parts that actually changed were things with ratings, like dps/healing/tacticaldps/might/vitality/critrating etc...
    What did not change is things like +10% damage by skill xyz.

    From imbuement on, everything raised. That led to issues with balance and many more issues than were present before.

    the best thing that could happen with the rework of the ILI system would be, if legacy raises completely vanish and only mainstat/ratings change automatically with characterlevel.

    the secondbest thing would be, if every new update unlocked 3-5 ranks on all legacies, which can only be unlocked with scrolls and crystals that drop in the new endgame, which result in a sum of 5-10% better stats. The next update will autogrant all those old ranks and unlock 3-5 new ones which can be unlocked with new scrolls and crystals, with old unlocks happening at certain characterlevels.

    However... knowing what the devs plan would be really nice (if they actually have plans)

    maxxing out ILI on day1 of next update or getting to lvl120 levels with a lvl100 character is simply wrong and shouldnt be possible anymore after the revamp
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    legendary items consist of several stats.
    From lvl50 to 100, the only parts that actually changed were things with ratings, like dps/healing/tacticaldps/might/vitality/critrating etc...
    What did not change is things like +10% damage by skill xyz.

    From imbuement on, everything raised. That led to issues with balance and many more issues than were present before.

    the best thing that could happen with the rework of the ILI system would be, if legacy raises completely vanish and only mainstat/ratings change automatically with characterlevel.

    the secondbest thing would be, if every new update unlocked 3-5 ranks on all legacies, which can only be unlocked with scrolls and crystals that drop in the new endgame, which result in a sum of 5-10% better stats. The next update will autogrant all those old ranks and unlock 3-5 new ones which can be unlocked with new scrolls and crystals, with old unlocks happening at certain characterlevels.

    However... knowing what the devs plan would be really nice (if they actually have plans)

    maxxing out ILI on day1 of next update or getting to lvl120 levels with a lvl100 character is simply wrong and shouldnt be possible anymore after the revamp
    Well to point one, if they don't raise the legacies (anymore) each legacy need to give a percentage Bonus. +x% dmg to skill what ever is allways the same strong. But +xxxx of something will become obsolete if we get some raises like the last to again. Even with a raise they give to less compared to what is needed.
    To point to still the problem to Catch up even if the new levels are for free for everyone.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Well to point one, if they don't raise the legacies (anymore) each legacy need to give a percentage Bonus. +x% dmg to skill what ever is allways the same strong. But +xxxx of something will become obsolete if we get some raises like the last to again. Even with a raise they give to less compared to what is needed.
    To point to still the problem to Catch up even if the new levels are for free for everyone.
    I think, your comment targets this
    the best thing that could happen with the rework of the ILI system would be, if legacy raises completely vanish and only mainstat/ratings change automatically with characterlevel.
    the reason that steady +xxxx to something would become obsolete is, why I wrote that ratings should change automatically with characterlevel. Might not have been that obvious, but I meant everything on ILI thats not some percentage (or timebased like CD reduction) legacy with that.
    And if everything up to the last update is autogranted, there is no issue with catch-up. But that was only part of suggestion2. So with suggestion1, I actually might have implied that legacies go back to lvl100 values (plus scaling up ratings), which would make investments done by all of us wasted. That might be disliked by many, but actually, it would be the best way. Legacies grew out of hands and should go back to pre-imbue-values.
    Last edited by Oelle; Sep 30 2018 at 04:56 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    I think, your comment targets this

    the reason that steady +xxxx to something would become obsolete is, why I wrote that ratings should change automatically with characterlevel. Might not have been that obvious, but I meant everything on ILI thats not some percentage (or timebased like CD reduction) legacy with that.
    And if everything up to the last update is autogranted, there is no issue with catch-up. But that was only part of suggestion2. So with suggestion1, I actually might have implied that legacies go back to lvl100 values (plus scaling up ratings), which would make investments done by all of us wasted. That might be disliked by many, but actually, it would be the best way. Legacies grew out of hands and should go back to pre-imbue-values.
    Just look at rend armour reduction.+6300 at~20k at 105. +7300 at7k at155...... "
    The worth of Such legacies decrease per update

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Just look at rend armour reduction.+6300 at~20k at 105. +7300 at7k at155...... "
    The worth of Such legacies decrease per update
    thats because it does NOT get changed automatically with characterlevel = scaled.
    Which is, what I'm asking for.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    I think, your comment targets this

    the reason that steady +xxxx to something would become obsolete is, why I wrote that ratings should change automatically with characterlevel. Might not have been that obvious, but I meant everything on ILI thats not some percentage (or timebased like CD reduction) legacy with that.
    And if everything up to the last update is autogranted, there is no issue with catch-up. But that was only part of suggestion2. So with suggestion1, I actually might have implied that legacies go back to lvl100 values (plus scaling up ratings), which would make investments done by all of us wasted. That might be disliked by many, but actually, it would be the best way. Legacies grew out of hands and should go back to pre-imbue-values.
    I'm not trying to be an apologist for SSG, but there's a fundamental issue with auto-scaling LI's as the character levels up. We players complete the game content much faster than the devs can create the game content. The devs build mechanisms into the game which slow down how quickly players progress through the game. The crystal/scroll grind for imbued LI's is one of those mechanisms. I don't like the grind, I think at the very least SSG should put some sort of cap on that grind, but the LI grind is there because it acts as a way of slowing down how quickly most players will accomplish certain in-game goals.

    It would be very beneficial to the players for SSG to make imbued LI's auto-scale with character level and drop the grind completely, but by removing this mechanism that slows down player progression, how does this benefit SSG as the people responsible for creating the game content? SSG cannot create content faster than we can complete it. If SSG removes LI improvement as a mechanism to slow the players down, I think it's fairly safe to assume that they will increase similar mechanisms in other aspects of the game, or introduce new ones to replace the LI improvement mechanism, to compensate for removing the time-sink that imbued LI's currently represent.

    It's a balancing act. The easier it is for players to reach whatever level of improvement that they're happy with (not every player wants full sets of the latest raid gear), the more players will complain "I'm bored, there's nothing I want to do. Give me new content that I will want to do". On the other hand, make those time-sinks too long and drawn out and players will complain about the game becoming a tedious and unreasonable hamster-wheel with a lot of time spent for little gain. Finding the middle ground between the two isn't always easy.

    There are going to be time-sinks of one type or another, that's just the nature of the beast given the time it takes to develop new content compared to playing that content. I do agree that the current LI time-sink is reaching a reasonable limit (or maybe I am not being reasonable, which may be true), but I seriously doubt that the optimal solution is to remove that time-sink completely and expect no other changes. SSG needs those time-sinks to give them some breathing room for their content development cycle, and if they give up the LI time-sink completely, don't be surprised if they add another time-sink, or extend the other existing time-sinks to compensate.

    There's a reason for the expression "be careful what you wish for, because you might get it". It means there may be other consequences to getting your wish that you haven't thought about and those other consequences may not work in your favour.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GarethB View Post
    I'm not trying to be an apologist for SSG, but there's a fundamental issue with auto-scaling LI's as the character levels up. We players complete the game content much faster than the devs can create the game content. The devs build mechanisms into the game which slow down how quickly players progress through the game. The crystal/scroll grind for imbued LI's is one of those mechanisms. I don't like the grind, I think at the very least SSG should put some sort of cap on that grind, but the LI grind is there because it acts as a way of slowing down how quickly most players will accomplish certain in-game goals.

    It would be very beneficial to the players for SSG to make imbued LI's auto-scale with character level and drop the grind completely, but by removing this mechanism that slows down player progression, how does this benefit SSG as the people responsible for creating the game content? SSG cannot create content faster than we can complete it. If SSG removes LI improvement as a mechanism to slow the players down, I think it's fairly safe to assume that they will increase similar mechanisms in other aspects of the game, or introduce new ones to replace the LI improvement mechanism, to compensate for removing the time-sink that imbued LI's currently represent.

    It's a balancing act. The easier it is for players to reach whatever level of improvement that they're happy with (not every player wants full sets of the latest raid gear), the more players will complain "I'm bored, there's nothing I want to do. Give me new content that I will want to do". On the other hand, make those time-sinks too long and drawn out and players will complain about the game becoming a tedious and unreasonable hamster-wheel with a lot of time spent for little gain. Finding the middle ground between the two isn't always easy.

    There are going to be time-sinks of one type or another, that's just the nature of the beast given the time it takes to develop new content compared to playing that content. I do agree that the current LI time-sink is reaching a reasonable limit (or maybe I am not being reasonable, which may be true), but I seriously doubt that the optimal solution is to remove that time-sink completely and expect no other changes. SSG needs those time-sinks to give them some breathing room for their content development cycle, and if they give up the LI time-sink completely, don't be surprised if they add another time-sink, or extend the other existing time-sinks to compensate.

    There's a reason for the expression "be careful what you wish for, because you might get it". It means there may be other consequences to getting your wish that you haven't thought about and those other consequences may not work in your favour.
    Well... if they want the system to be grindy, why did they explicitly tell us, that it would be less grindy when they changed from LI to ILI system? Which was simply a lie...
    But yes, you are right.
    Thats why I think, that the change that will come will somehow be similar to the secondbest version:
    the secondbest thing would be, if every new update unlocked 3-5 ranks on all legacies, which can only be unlocked with scrolls and crystals that drop in the new endgame, which result in a sum of 5-10% better stats. The next update will autogrant all those old ranks and unlock 3-5 new ones which can be unlocked with new scrolls and crystals, with old unlocks happening at certain characterlevels.
    Thats still far better than what we have.
    Plus, it would finally end this:
    maxxing out ILI on day1 of next update or getting to lvl120 levels with a lvl100 character is simply wrong and shouldnt be possible anymore after the revamp
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    thats because it does NOT get changed automatically with characterlevel = scaled.
    Which is, what I'm asking for.
    Nö the problem with this is that it is scaled linear while our stats and the of the enemy exponentual with the last two updates.
    The same for some (de)buffs of skills or selfheals.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Nö the problem with this is that it is scaled linear while our stats and the of the enemy exponentual with the last two updates.
    The same for some (de)buffs of skills or selfheals.
    where is rend legacy scaled with characterlevel?
    I only see it raise with legacy increases. Thats a completely different thing.

    maybe, you are talking about the skills itself and not about legacies?
    That has nothing to do with an ILI system rework

    automatic scaling with characterlevel would (or better should) reflect the same scaling thats applied to NPCs or essences or general equipment stats/iLvLs.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    where is rend legacy scaled with characterlevel?
    I only see it raise with legacy increases. Thats a completely different thing.

    maybe, you are talking about the skills itself and not about legacies?
    That has nothing to do with an ILI system rework

    automatic scaling with characterlevel would (or better should) reflect the same scaling thats applied to NPCs or essences or general equipment stats/iLvLs.
    Both get a big nerf on the percentage side.
    The leg with 105 gives 6300 at 20k armour is an improvement of around 33%
    115 7300 to 70k jsut 10% improvement.
    120 8500 to 200k ca 4% left.
    Rend debuff itsel is nerfed from 20% over 10% to 5%.
    Cause both raise linear while the armour increase exponential.
    They must get a big jump with level/rank x or become percentage (20% base and +0.3%per rank for the first 50 rank and after this rend dmg plus or something else).

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Both get a big nerf on the percentage side.
    The leg with 105 gives 6300 at 20k armour is an improvement of around 33%
    115 7300 to 70k jsut 10% improvement.
    120 8500 to 200k ca 4% left.
    Rend debuff itsel is nerfed from 20% over 10% to 5%.
    Cause both raise linear while the armour increase exponential.
    They must get a big jump with level/rank x or become percentage (20% base and +0.3%per rank for the first 50 rank and after this rend dmg plus or something else).
    The raise of rend debuff depends on two parts:
    The skills part scales with characterlevel. It started tiny and near neglectable and raises with characterlevel accordingly. In other words, it scales.
    The legacy part suddenly raised to absurd levels when imbuement started. Since then, the legacy simply raised linearly with legacy ranks, like every other legacy, which is NOT the same like being scaled with characterlevel.

    I'm totally fine with Rend debuff being weak. Its still worth it, if its weak. It just stops to be the only reason why a champ gets taken into fights. And rend being part of the AOE damage spec SHOULD NOT be the only viable spec in all fights. It was just wrong to be that strong at lvl105 at all. That was clearly a mistake when someone decided how strong legacies should be when imbuement was implemented. Still... rend debuff legacy currently does NOT get scaled with characterlevel. Things scaling with characterlevel is, what should happen as soon as the ILI system gets reworked. And obviously not linear. Nothing else gets scaled linearly with characterlevel in lotro. Why should legacies?
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    The raise of rend debuff depends on two parts:
    The skills part scales with characterlevel. It started tiny and near neglectable and raises with characterlevel accordingly. In other words, it scales.
    The legacy part suddenly raised to absurd levels when imbuement started. Since then, the legacy simply raised linearly with legacy ranks, like every other legacy, which is NOT the same like being scaled with characterlevel.

    I'm totally fine with Rend debuff being weak. Its still worth it, if its weak. It just stops to be the only reason why a champ gets taken into fights. And rend being part of the AOE damage spec SHOULD NOT be the only viable spec in all fights. It was just wrong to be that strong at lvl105 at all. That was clearly a mistake when someone decided how strong legacies should be when imbuement was implemented. Still... rend debuff legacy currently does NOT get scaled with characterlevel. Things scaling with characterlevel is, what should happen as soon as the ILI system gets reworked. And obviously not linear. Nothing else gets scaled linearly with characterlevel in lotro. Why should legacies?
    Maybe 50% was to strong but 9% is far to weak.
    We schuld go to the middle 35%-30%.
    And as said in the first rend is just an example there are a lot of legacies and skills which become to weak through the last two updates.
    Such things need to become percentage. Than it doesn't matter how much they raise the stats.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Maybe 50% was to strong but 9% is far to weak.
    We schuld go to the middle 35%-30%.
    And as said in the first rend is just an example there are a lot of legacies and skills which become to weak through the last two updates.
    Such things need to become percentage. Than it doesn't matter how much they raise the stats.
    if they scale with characterlevel, thats essentially the same like getting percentage bonusses...
    And 30-35% armor reduction on 10 targets with practically zero CD is clearly OP.
    I feel, one of the main points in those big stat raises with the last updates may have been, that the devs target values, where we can not reduce enemies mits to zero anymore. I'd welcome that.
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  20. #20
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    Mukor is actually quite correct in that main problem with present ILI system is exceedingly badly done scaling for Mordor.
    Pre-imbue, LIs received base DPS boost when mob difficulty jumped. Case in point: a lvl 86 LI has 33% higher base DPS than a lvl 85 LI. The crystals were something you added on top of that for a bit extra DPS boost mainly needed for instances. On weapons, applying 3 star-lits added about 10% DPS. Solo/landscape players never needed to bither with those.
    Post-imbue, before Mordor, there simply were no significant mob difficulty increases. And while the amount of Starlits needed to max a weapon grew every update (17 pre-Mordor), the DPS boost they provided was negligible. Specifically, pre/Mordor, an imbued LI with no starlits was at 26 out of max 43 DPS tiers, and at 26 it was only about 7% less than a 43. I got a rather detailed post on this in 'Gameplay Discussion'.

    The absolute #1 problem is that with Mordor release, LIs received the needed DPS boost not at base, but at the top. An LI at 26 (no crystals) could now go to 31, which was only 2% more DPS. A maxed LI at 43 could now go to 48, which gave 30% more DPS. And if one added 5 more crystals to the new max of 53, that was a 70% DPS boost. On top of that, new runes dropping only in on-level instances provided even more DPS.

    In short, people who never needed a single starlit and could do landscape just fine, suddenly found themselves needing 20 starlits per LI in order to be adequate vs new landscape. Couple that with the fact that for casual/solo/landscape players, opportunities to get starlits are VERY thin, an Mordor, while introducing the need for them, provided absolutely no new means of getting them.

    The other legacies that need SoEs are not a big deal, those actually did nor get that much of a bump. A typical legacy at tier 42 may provide about 20-22% boost compared to 30% from a tier 69.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    390
    To draw a parallel to lvl 85-86 mob difficulty boost - as soon as you levelled to 86+, entered new lvl 86+ areas and got your hands on a new third age LI, you had your 33% dps boost.

    By equivalent, any player hitting lvl 106 and entering Mordor, should have been able to obtain something from lanscape fighting/questing that would unlock their LI DPS tiers to something like 49.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,092
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    if they scale with characterlevel, thats essentially the same like getting percentage bonusses...
    And 30-35% armor reduction on 10 targets with practically zero CD is clearly OP.
    I feel, one of the main points in those big stat raises with the last updates may have been, that the devs target values, where we can not reduce enemies mits to zero anymore. I'd welcome that.
    A Third absolutely a fair value, which would give champs back their place.
    Everything less is to few to block a place with them.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    A Third absolutely a fair value, which would give champs back their place.
    Everything less is to few to block a place with them.
    And why should champs get a spot as debuffer at all?
    Why shouldnt they get a DPS spot? Why dont you ask for that?
    I see no reason to ask for a yellowline spot in a situation that only needs single target damage.
    Champs should imo get a spot in groups in yellow line if aoe damage is needed, in redline if single target damage is required and in blueline, if tanking is required. nothing wrong with debuffing alongside that, but the spot should be for their DPS role, not because of their debuffs. Otherwise, you simply make champs AOE burglars. That huge aoe armour debuff from lvl105 was never needed and should never have been there. With that skill targeting 10 targets and having practically no CD, it should be weaker than any other armour debuff ingame. Not stronger.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Anführer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
    Deutsche Guides für nahezu alles, was Casuals interessieren könnte, gibts hier: http://gdfv.forumo.de/guides-f24/

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,092
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    And why should champs get a spot as debuffer at all?
    Why shouldnt they get a DPS spot? Why dont you ask for that?
    I see no reason to ask for a yellowline spot in a situation that only needs single target damage.
    Champs should imo get a spot in groups in yellow line if aoe damage is needed, in redline if single target damage is required and in blueline, if tanking is required. nothing wrong with debuffing alongside that, but the spot should be for their DPS role, not because of their debuffs. Otherwise, you simply make champs AOE burglars. That huge aoe armour debuff from lvl105 was never needed and should never have been there. With that skill targeting 10 targets and having practically no CD, it should be weaker than any other armour debuff ingame. Not stronger.
    For sure they are dps but if they can't debuff doing their mainjob they loose their place to hunters.
    105 Was perfect, yellow for trash and yellowred for st-bossfights, with 80% of their reddmg but with the supporting part which increases the dps of the others this good that they were needed even they did less dps as the other dpser.
    The other option would be Boot redline this much that they have a higher dmgpotencial as the rangedpser. Cause as a melee you loose automatically dps while running to the enemy, New potioning, follow the kitting tank and so on while range stand in their potion and do dmg.
    Just look at the current content where is nearly no spot for a champ in T2 at least random. You need to have a fixraid which is good enough to loose some dps on the bossfights or no spot.
    So as long they don't do with 80% of their full potencial, which is automatically given through the mechanics, as much dmg as a 100% hunter do they will not have a place without other wins for thegroup.

 

 

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