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  1. #1

    Cordovan's blatantly false statements about Wargs

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    There has been a long-standing problem with Wargs where they have too many immediate skills that can be used to spam multiple damage skills in an overly-short period of time. The old cooldown was short enough that it was being used to fire multiple Warg skills essentially at once. This has also contributed to the exceptionally vocal "macro exploit" complaints we receive from PvMP players. Ultimately, we need to make sure that immediate skills have cooldowns that are appropriately long enough to prevent misuse.

    Everything in this post is so hilariously outside the realm of reality that it deserves a point-by-point analysis.



    Statement 1:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    There has been a long-standing problem with Wargs where they have too many immediate skills that can be used to spam multiple damage skills in an overly-short period of time.
    FALSE

    As responded by Zipfile:
    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    Macro Warg originated during the time where immediate skills, if properly used, would cut animations and wouldn't put the previous skill on cooldown. It basically allowed you to cancel and repeat a skill multiple times a second.
    That was fixed, what's left today is just warg players who know how to get the best damage out of the tools given, by any (legal) means.
    adding onto this: Modern warg is Functionally identical to champions, guardians, burgs, etc in its use of immediate skills to cut animations. The only thing differentiating wargs from other classes that use immediate skills to cut animations is that the period (the frequency of how often you can cut) is lower on warg than other classes, but is not outside the bounds of reasonable gameplay. There is nothing that you can do on warg that you could not do on champion/burg/guardian less frequently

    Statement 2:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post

    The old cooldown was short enough that it was being used to fire multiple Warg skills essentially at once.
    FALSE

    First of all, this statement makes no logical sense.

    The COOLDOWN of a skill dictates how often it can be used. The nature of if a skill is immediate or not dictates whether it can be used as a animation cutter.

    The COOLDOWN of the skill has NO LOGICAL RELEVANCE to whether a skill can be used to fit more skill uses into a smaller timeframe

    furthermore, an immediate skill can only cut the animation of 1 skill at a time, meaning that blaming A SINGLE immediate skill with any cooldown for the firing of multiple skills at once is not logically consistent

    IMPLIED STATEMENT: By increasing the cooldown of eye rake, wargs will not be able to use it as an animation cutter that helps get more skills off in a smaller time window

    FALSE

    This does NOTHING to warg's ability to be able to fit many skills in a smaller time window, because it still functions as an animation cutter. The only thing this does is make it less frequent over long fights, leading to periods when wargs must wait and do nothing while an overly long or bugged animation executes for 2-3 seconds. THIS MAKES WARG BORING TO PLAY

    Statement 3:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This has also contributed to the exceptionally vocal "macro exploit" complaints we receive from PvMP players
    FALSE

    Setting aside the fact that creeps have been getting 1 shot by every freep under the sun for the past YEAR and SSG did nothing.....

    What has contributed to players complaining about "macro wargs" is that the difference between good wargs and bad wargs is large and noticeable.

    A good warg will be able to maintain positional at all times (thus gaining +50% damage on skills), utilize mitigation debuffs, utilize animation cutting, and utilize Rend Flesh at the appropriate moment, all while surviving while being in a glasscannon build that can be killed by freeps in 3 hits. THIS IS DIFFICULT.

    A bad warg will NOT be able to do any of the above mentioned tasks and thus put out very low damage (less than half as much) in comparison.

    THE DIFFERENCE IN PLAYER ABILITY and the relative distribution in ability in the warg population (with only 10% of all wargs being able to execute all of the things a good warg should do) is what leads to accusations of macro-warging. When one warg barely does any damage while another does lots of damage, the first and most popular accusation (stemming from the LONG FIXED immediate macro exploit) is "macro warg".


    Statement 4:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post

    Ultimately, we need to make sure that immediate skills have cooldowns that are appropriately long enough to prevent misuse.
    IMPLIED STATEMENT: Eye Gouge is currently being exploited due to low cooldown, and by increasing the cooldown we will eliminate complaints of macro exploiting wargs

    FALSE

    -animation cutting with eye gouge will continue during initial burst rotations out of stealth (relatively unaffected by this change)
    -prooly geared freeps will continue to die very quicky to warg dps.
    -the complaints of uninformed and low mitigation freeps about the variance in warg DPS will continue


    But you did manage to kick the warg class in the teeth when it comes to its rotation, which while previously was predicated on the weaving of long animation skills in with bestial claws and maul, is now ENTIRELY PREDICATED ON ONLY THOSE TWO SKILLS.

    WARG IS NOW A 2 SKILL CLASS





    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Alrighty example of live to beta:

    https://youtu.be/_IEAVugPRpY


    The problem with Wargs the last few update has been 100% Bestial Claws, nothing else. The number of skills you can fire off just added complexity and variety to the class. At 100 cap the exact same version of Eye Gouge was live, yet was completely balanced because Bestial Claws damage was more balanced in relation to other skills.


    IF WARG DAMAGE IS THE PROBLEM: This hardly touches this at all.
    I haven't run much testing on BR, but if it is the problem, then a damage redistribution from Claws to other skills (Rend, Pounce, Scratch and Snip, Swipe, Eye Gouge) will balance it out significantly. Nerfing Eye Gouge only reduces the output of Warg damage by a small amount, but makes the class much more clunky and spammy to play.

    IF BURST ROTATIONS ARE THE PROBLEM: This does nothing.
    The initial burst with Warg is still intact- this only hurts rotational fluidity.

    IF INTERRUPT SPAM IS THE PROBLEM: This is the complete wrong way to fix it.
    Simply assigning an internal Cooldown of when Eye Gouge can interrupt again (exact same as Warden interrupt) will suffice just fine, and is something I suggested years ago. In addition, the broken capability of spam interrupt has shrunk with the Trait Tree bloat. LM alone has access to insta cast Blue Line inductions and more powerful Yellow Line CC which makes interrupts far less of a problem. In addition playing around spam interrupts has always been doable by any Loremaster or Healer worth his/her salt.


    SSG, of all the changes needed in PvP, why was this at the top of the list? Developer changes like this are why I will never put another dime into this company. The disconnect between Dev changes and what is needed for balance and player enjoyment continues to drive this game into the dirt..
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Only thing to add is that past Dev regimes had explicitly stated both the immediate > fast skill interactions and the cooldown on eye rake were working as intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phivex View Post
    Executing an "Immediate" skill will 'truncate' any executing skill; 'interrupt' probably isn't the correct word. The current skill animation will be stopped, all remaining payout delivered (yes, you get the full damage/effects of the current skill) and then the "Immediate" skill will execute. You will definitely find some interesting new skill chains with this capability...
    Last edited by Saruman_Of_Numbers; Sep 27 2018 at 10:14 AM.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  2. #2
    sounds like another warg complaining they can't exploit anymore


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliadon View Post
    sounds like another warg complaining they can't exploit anymore

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by eliadon View Post
    sounds like another warg complaining they can't exploit anymore
    Sounds like me when I show up to class but forgot to do the reading. Learning new things is hard.

  5. #5
    Only thing to add is that past Dev regimes had explicitly stated both the immediate > fast skill interactions and the cooldown on eye rake were working as intended.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Only thing to add is that past Dev regimes had explicitly stated both the immediate > fast skill interactions and the cooldown on eye rake were working as intended.
    now is not the time for crazy stuff like logic and reasoning, the only thing that will grab their attention is memes

    this dev team just says, "even though we may not respond to you directly, we read all of your feedback"
    really? you guys read all of it and you still managed to make the wrong decisions over half of the time? wow thats an achievement
    what is the purpose of reading everything if you cant differentiate between good/accurate feedback and bad/inaccurate feedback?
    yeah lets just ignore literally everyone complaining about LMs oneshotting creeps and change eye gouge because Meowburglar aka KayleahSunshine had to hips in a 3v1 vs a warg

    now imagine if the dev team actually had characters at the end game... i feel like whenever we ask if they play their own game, they say "yes" but in the back of their mind they are referring to their lvl 50 character that has 6/30 levels on their first LI and got stuck during the moria prologue or better yet they just couldnt bring themselves to leave the shire for 3 years or maybe they log into the game but they dont play though their own lackluster content but instead they take screenshots of themselves on the landscape to post on twitter

    cant wait until they revamp monster classes for the first time in 5+ years in 2020

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    What has contributed to players complaining about "macro wargs" is that the difference between good wargs and bad wargs is large and noticeable.

    A good warg will be able to maintain positional at all times (thus gaining +50% damage on skills), utilize mitigation debuffs, utilize animation cutting, and utilize Rend Flesh at the appropriate moment, all while surviving while being in a glasscannon build that can be killed by freeps in 3 hits. THIS IS DIFFICULT.

    A bad warg will NOT be able to do any of the above mentioned tasks and thus put out very low damage (less than half as much) in comparison.

    THE DIFFERENCE IN PLAYER ABILITY and the relative distribution in ability in the warg population (with only 10% of all wargs being able to execute all of the things a good warg should do) is what leads to accusations of macro-warging. When one warg barely does any damage while another does lots of damage, the first and most popular accusation (stemming from the LONG FIXED immediate macro exploit) is "macro warg".
    ^^ 100% agree with this, and it's no reason to nerf skilled wargs.
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  8. #8
    assuming this change is final. you should untrait enhanced eye gauge now to practice new rotations.

  9. #9
    actually, there is an influence of immediates CD on how much you can chain up. If the CD is zero or near zero, you can chain up as much as you want, including simply always the same immediate skill one after the other. If thats not the case, you cant do that.

    Examples:
    Class x has 1 immediate skill with 0 CD, which deals 1000 damage. I can spam that skill 1000x in a second and kill any enemy.
    Class y has 3 immediate skills, all with 1s CD. I can use these to chain up immediate-fast-immediate-fast-immediate-fast and if fast has no CD, this results in 6 skills per second, without end.
    Class z has 10 immediate skills, with each skill 10s CD. I can either burn all of them in the same second for a huge burst or use 2 skills per second with a cut each second. choice.

    Sure, nothing of these examples exist ingame.
    But the claim, that CD of immediates has no influence in chaining up skills is simply wrong.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Sure, nothing of these examples exist ingame.
    There we go.


    1 immediate use = 1 skill animation cut for all immediate cd > 0, which is all of them.

    How often you can cut is based on the CD of the skill.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wretchesandkings View Post
    assuming this change is final. you should untrait enhanced eye gauge now to practice new rotations.
    the change got reversed

  12. #12
    In this instance, we should give them credit for listening to the feedback, realizing there was a consensus on this, and changing course.
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
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  13. #13
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    I'm finding this whole thing difficult to respond to without spontaneously combusting......


    DO THE DEVS EVEN PLAY A WARG?????????????????????????


    CHRIST DO THE PROPER HOMEWORK AND THEN COMMENT!

    ITS PITEOUS AND LAUGHABLE.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    In this instance, we should give them credit for listening to the feedback, realizing there was a consensus on this, and changing course.



    credit where credit is due.... they DELAYED it at least..
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post



    credit where credit is due.... they DELAYED it at least..
    I agree, the BR server is there to test new ideas and solicit feedback. It is heartening to hear that ALL the feedback was reviewed and assessed. I do have one of each Creep, most rank 8+ and Warg, although not my main, is a special class. It is really difficult to play well and although I am an experienced player that understands rotations, I can’t begin to approach the dps of an elite Warg that has taken the time to master the class. On our server, I think of Pashnar and Bagazage in this elite camp- looks like a different class and neither uses macros (although some believe otherwise).

    Believe it or not, there are freeps that are elite too! We have certain hunters and burgs that strike fear in the hearts of even elite Creeps.. where many will produce a mere whetting of the appetite. That is expected and is one of the reasons the Moors is an interesting place to test your metal.

    Cheers to SSG for being responsive and for attempting to do the right thing. It’s a tough job, but many of us find ways to enjoy the game, even when things get a little goofy like for the past year... ;-)
    Aakvanark/Corwelleon

  16. #16
    Nice to see that so much changes over the years. I lost track as to how many times we've argued about us wargs.

    Waited over a decade now for my doggy 1 shot skill........maybe it's over behind that rock outside of Dar........Have to go check now, bub bye.
    .

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  17. #17
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    Things will change.
    It's been very rough and some recent (freepside) changes have been very, very bad. Regardless of feedback.

    But. But given that you have not seen the changes and how the now reworked global balances works out in PVP, how can you know enough to say anything about the end result yet? Unless all you take an interest in is abusing a spokesperson (who may or may not be well informed).


    I wonder what your last forum account was, by the way.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post
    There we go.


    1 immediate use = 1 skill animation cut for all immediate cd > 0, which is all of them.

    How often you can cut is based on the CD of the skill.
    Not exactly true. There's always been something a little funky about how animation cutting affects the next couple of skills (not just the next skill). I have no idea how it works but certain exploiter types have posted videos showing it even as recently as a year or so ago.
    Team Milt.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by phuffdaddy View Post
    Nice to see that so much changes over the years. I lost track as to how many times we've argued about us wargs.

    Waited over a decade now for my doggy 1 shot skill........maybe it's over behind that rock outside of Dar........Have to go check now, bub bye.
    Yup. A year+ now of getting 1-shot by burgs and hunters but better focus on that animation cutting skill. Because, you know, can't have fodder fighting back.
    Team Milt.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRabbitfoot View Post
    Not exactly true. There's always been something a little funky about how animation cutting affects the next couple of skills (not just the next skill). I have no idea how it works but certain exploiter types have posted videos showing it even as recently as a year or so ago.
    Nah it doesn't, there's been no way to reliably replicate the "macro warg" exploit from long ago, not only because they patched it, but because the horrendous server lag wouldn't allow it these days anyway.

    Pretty convinced that footage you are referring to was simply overlaying old footage on top of newer footage as a troll/tease attempt to get all the old exploiters trying again.
    The Black Appendage of Sauron

 

 

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