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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Not true, at all.

    Or, if you will permit me to ask you again since you must have missed it above: Do you perhaps think that when the devs are setting the loot vendor prices, or any other "price" (in effort, challenge, grind, etc.) within the game, that they aren't also considering how making those in-game "prices" higher makes the cash price more attractive?

    When they are in the business of selling you virtual things for cash, they are thus motivated to make obtaining those same (or similar) virtual things (much) more difficult to acquire without cash.

    --H
    That seems like a fair way of looking at it. Yes, I could see that be a factor. So what is it I win by using a box? I beat your character how?

    Now using your theory, which I agree with, isn't that a bi-product of a free to play system? Tease, tease, tease... or pay and you can get X, Y or Z. You can grind for LP to buy a wallet, a mount skill, a region. Is that P2W?

    There has to be some type of carrot to keep the lights on. Or is there someway that you can show me that provides a revenue for the developers to pay to keep the servers up?

    MAWorking had the highest post count on the pre-beta LOTRO forums. He was truly an icon and clearly, hasn't changed a bit. -Meghan/aka Patience

  2. #202
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    The key here is that when someone says I don't understand how me opening a loot-box affects you a couple things are taking place:

    1. They don't understand the many arguments and published articles that more than prove the negative effect that loot-boxes have on game design.
    2. They do understand, they simply just don't care (which, to be fair, is fine--they should state so and leave the debate at hand to those who do care).

    The problem I have with #1, is that we've already seen it first hand w/ Mordor. So to claim you don't understand--especially if you played through that content--tells me your intentions aren't genuine.

  3. #203
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    A mea culpa before I take a break. . . as I fear I've insulted people that I did not intend to insult and whom I very much respect. . . it is (overly) long. . . but I think it needs said. . .

    I've posted perhaps a hundred times that none of my criticism of the F2P business model or any actions taken thereunder to increase revenue should ever be blamed on SSG or its staff. Though I write of undermining the "integrity of the game," "perverse incentives," or "selling cheats". . . the truth of the matter is that SSG is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Indeed, to not do such things given the realities of the MMO industry would be business malpractice. Turbine pioneered and migrated to the Free-to-Play model because it was clearly the more lucrative model (and doing so arguably saved the game from closure). They had to do so. They should not ever be blamed for doing so. Nor should they be blamed for gradually monetizing more and more aspects of the game. Businesses, in the real world, cannot and should not be expected to turn away revenue. Especially for such nebulous concepts as the "integrity" of a game.

    So why do I keep harping on such terms if not to blame SSG? Because, there is blame to be allotted. But the blame is not SSG's. The blame is ours, the players. If we were more willing to pay for integrity in our games, there would be no incentive for companies like Turbine or SSG to transform their games so fundamentally into what I describe in terms that so many (understandably, in hindsight) misinterpret as being insulting or abusive towards those who are, in the end, only running a business and offering up the fruits of their labor for us to enjoy while acting as the guardian of their product to the best of their ability within various (often unappreciated) constraints.

    So, having reiterated this, I hope it's clear that I bear no ill will and mean no offense towards those who are merely trying to make their business venture as successful as possible. And I daresay that they also want the game to have as much "integrity" as possible while still satisfying the needs of the business. I just can't be any more clear: They're not to be faulted. They should sell us what we are willing to buy.

    I hope this also explains why I focus so much on the various claims that aspects of the Store or the game's monetization (lootboxes) can simply be ignored to no ill effect on others or the game as a whole. I think I have amply demonstrated that this is not the case: That such things affect the game and its integrity more subtly than most consider. But my goal has never been to insult or shame SSG. My goal (unrealistic as it is) has been to diminish the demand for such detrimental things by addressing the rationalizations/arguments made in defense of their purchase/availability.

    Surely, MMOs and much of online computer gaming in general will be F2P-based for the foreseeable future. And I think the hobby is worse off for it. But, one more time, that's not the fault of game developers. They are merely providing us exactly what we've told them (both verbally and via our spending habits) we want. My only point throughout all my long posts on the subject is that perhaps we need to be more careful about what we want, what we'll pay for, and how we think about such things. Because in the end, at the end of all the slippery slopes, where we end up will be our fault, and not in any way the fault of those who merely gave us exactly what we demanded the entire way.

    Best Regards,

    --Hurin
    Installing LotRO -- One Guide to Rule Them All!
    Purchasing LotRO -- Guide to Building Your Own "Lifetime" Account.
    DirectX / Direct3D Error Messages? -- Solution.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    So why do I keep harping on such terms if not to blame SSG? Because, there is blame to be allotted. But the blame is not SSG's. The blame is ours, the players. If we were more willing to pay for integrity in our games, there would be no incentive for companies like Turbine or SSG to transform their games so fundamentally into what I describe in terms that so many (understandably, in hindsight) misinterpret as being insulting or abusive towards those who are, in the end, only running a business and offering up the fruits of their labor for us to enjoy while acting as the guardian of their product to the best of their ability within various (often unappreciated) constraints.
    I absolutely disagree with this. The fault lies 100% with SSG.

    When Mordor ''preorders'' launched with absurd pricing on collector's and ultimate editions , most players that bought one of them , did so in order to support and help improve their beloved 10+ year old game.
    This more or less means , more of the same content we were used to all these years , more polished , accompanied with client improvement and the sorts...

    They neither payed for Mordor in order to turn this game into a pay to win lootbox fest ( quite the opposite , there was no hint of what's to come when preorders started ) , nor to settle once again for 2 major updates per year , with minimal and sad group content , but again , at the same time , a dozen lootbox updates.

    In the end , after all the monetisation , the Mordor pricing , the cash-only buy option for several months and the whole key focus , there were 0 positive improvements in the game.
    The only one i can think of , is when they announced they hired some people into the team ( was it 2 ? ) , something i've yet to see turned into more content or significant gameplay improvements.
    In fact , they even used the above as an excuse for some fails , like the ''bugged'' ash dropping from landscape or the will gear having no finesse , something along the lines of : '' Some people in the team are new , mistakes will be made , but we are improving ''
    The real irony ? The will gear on U23 first 2 BR builds had evade and no finesse again. So much for improvement MAHAHA

    We are getting the same ammount and quality of content that we did before all those filthy lootboxes , if not less , the game hasn't improved one bit but we did get a significant portion of sad players.
    I get the concept of 'sacrifices have to be made' , when there's an improvement in the horizon - in this case there's none , other than the 64 bit client that was announced before the whole lootbox thing started and is still in the works =_= /sigh
    I get how the MMO market works - and no , most succesful mmos don't sell gear lol !
    We all get a lot of things , but all of you need to realise , that things like lootboxes pay their publisher , maybe some DDO updates and not Lotro itself.

    I used this example because Mordor launch was the first time the line was really crossed and the new sad monetisation meta turned into the monster it is today.

    Lotro was arguably at its best when the payment model was sub only , like WoW , then came f2p and lastly came lootbox ERA.
    So arguments that some players use , like : '' Lootboxes keep the game alive '' are a total joke , make me LMFAO and proves how clueless those few people are willing to act , in favour of supporting their love (or addiction) to Lotro!
    Its true however , that f2p did seem to save the game , which was left on unofficial maintenance mode for like a year back in Siege of Mirkwood , so sub-only seems long gone by now , never to return.

    But honestly , who is to blame about that ? Players for stop subbing , or Turbine at the time , releasing a minor quest zone then calling it an expansion , messing up with radiance etc etc ?
    If you compare Moria with Mirkwood , you can easily figure out why the sub-only model failed. Heck , even Lothlorien had more content than Mirkwood expansion lololol.

    Its soooo simple , there is a constant effort of releasing less content for more money , which to an extent makes total sense for a company , but when they overstep and fail , it's not the players fault -_-
    Last edited by BotLike; Sep 12 2018 at 09:26 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I absolutely disagree with this. The fault lies 100% with SSG.-_-

    And I would absolutely 100% disagree with you and 100% absolutely agree with Hurin, it is most definitely the fault of the players the way this game has turned out.

    As Hurin rightly pointed out Turbine/WB/SSG/Daybreak/EA whoever you want to put into this debate are all businesses, they exist for one reason and one reason alone, to make as much profit as possible from whatever product it is they market, in this case Lotro, and the lotro player base have shown, without any doubt that this is the game you are willing to pay for and as such SSG will continue to provide that game for as long as you pay for it.

    Anyone who thinks that SSG have any sort of personal bond with their player base and will tailor their business model and product for the love of their customers is beyond normal levels of delusion and naivety, they will ALWAYS, without a second thought put profit over player happiness, every, single, time and like Hurin also said, I dont blame them one bit, they should do that, that is what they are paid to do.

    The big issue here in Lotro and gaming in general is that the players (the customers) have somehow managed to convince themselves they have no power in this customer/business relationship, you act as if the likes of SSG and EA a doing you a favour by allowing you to play and purchase their product, I see this ridiculous term "supporting the game" banded about all the time, like you have an obligation to help out these poor little companies as they struggle to provide you with the chance to experience their game. Its not a charity, Turbine/WB or SSG/Daybreak are not poor, they are huge companies with massive investment behind them, how have you managed to convince yourselves they need your help?

    The reality is they need you, more than you need them, SSG cannot afford for Lotro to go under and close, they have no choice but to make whatever game you guys want, now if you want this current version of lotro then happy days, none of this is aimed at you, however if you are among the endless droves of people constantly asking for change yet still logging in and paying every day/week/month then yes, it is your fault.

    Every single person who buys a key, opens a lootbox, buys mithril coins, hobbit presents, pays for a sub or even just logs in, is saying to SSG, carry on with what you are doing I am quite happy with it, I have seen people say that they are not responsible for the current lootbox/store driven game because they refrain from buying keys, absolute tosh, it is undeniably clear that the game is being designed with the store in mind, the content that everyone does is being affected in a way to push everyone into the store to make purchases, regardless of whether or not you make those purchases and simply by logging in and playing through that affected content sends a message to SSG that you are happy with that situation.

    I will put it to you this way, if tomorrow everyone who buys keys and opens lootboxes logged in as normal and bought their keys as normal and opened their dozens of boxes but at the same time everyone who refuses to take part in that practice decided enough was enough and on mass, as one, stopped logging in, cancelled their subs, went on the forums and told SSG that they would not re-sub or log back in again until lootboxes were removed from the game, what do you think SSG would do? They cant ignore you, it would cost them their jobs, they would still have to live by the same business philosophy which led to loot boxes in the first place,which is to make the most profit possible, only now, you the player base have changed what that is, you have told them that loot boxes and designing the game around them and pushing people into the store is no longer a viable business model for this game and that engaging, well thought out, deep content with a store built around only cosmetics and not a lootbox in sight is the most profitable path to take, then they will have no choice but to take that path.

    But you don't, you log in, you pay your sub, you get annoyed/frustrated/sad/fed up with the game, you log onto the forums complain about the state of the game, act like your on some moral high ground because you don't buy keys, then log back in and pay your sub again,rinse and repeat that for 6 or 7 years and wonder why SSG don't listen to a single word you say and why your now having to massively grind away at dailies just to get a pair of boots that will be obsolete in 2 months or having to do the same 5 quests for 90 days straight just to finish a deed.

    The ONLY way you will ever get SSG to listen to you and change what they do is by making it a financial issue for them, and you the players have ALL the power in that respect. Hurin is 100% correct, you have the game you want if you want something else you have one option.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I absolutely disagree with this. The fault lies 100% with SSG.

    When Mordor ''preorders'' launched with absurd pricing on collector's and ultimate editions , most players that bought one of them , did so in order to support and help improve their beloved 10+ year old game.
    This more or less means , more of the same content we were used to all these years , more polished , accompanied with client improvement and the sorts...

    They neither payed for Mordor in order to turn this game into a pay to win lootbox fest ( quite the opposite , there was no hint of what's to come when preorders started ) , nor to settle once again for 2 major updates per year , with minimal and sad group content , but again , at the same time , a dozen lootbox updates.

    In the end , after all the monetisation , the Mordor pricing , the cash-only buy option for several months and the whole key focus , there were 0 positive improvements in the game.
    The only one i can think of , is when they announced they hired some people into the team ( was it 2 ? ) , something i've yet to see turned into more content or significant gameplay improvements.
    In fact , they even used the above as an excuse for some fails , like the ''bugged'' ash dropping from landscape or the will gear having no finesse , something along the lines of : '' Some people in the team are new , mistakes will be made , but we are improving ''
    The real irony ? The will gear on U23 first 2 BR builds had evade and no finesse again. So much for improvement MAHAHA

    We are getting the same ammount and quality of content that we did before all those filthy lootboxes , if not less , the game hasn't improved one bit but we did get a significant portion of sad players.
    I get the concept of 'sacrifices have to be made' , when there's an improvement in the horizon - in this case there's none , other than the 64 bit client that was announced before the whole lootbox thing started and is still in the works =_= /sigh
    I get how the MMO market works - and no , most succesful mmos don't sell gear lol !
    We all get a lot of things , but all of you need to realise , that things like lootboxes pay their publisher , maybe some DDO updates and not Lotro itself.

    I used this example because Mordor launch was the first time the line was really crossed and the new sad monetisation meta turned into the monster it is today.

    Lotro was arguably at its best when the payment model was sub only , like WoW , then came f2p and lastly came lootbox ERA.
    So arguments that some players use , like : '' Lootboxes keep the game alive '' are a total joke , make me LMFAO and proves how clueless those few people are willing to act , in favour of supporting their love (or addiction) to Lotro!
    Its true however , that f2p did seem to save the game , which was left on unofficial maintenance mode for like a year back in Siege of Mirkwood , so sub-only seems long gone by now , never to return.

    But honestly , who is to blame about that ? Players for stop subbing , or Turbine at the time , releasing a minor quest zone then calling it an expansion , messing up with radiance etc etc ?
    If you compare Moria with Mirkwood , you can easily figure out why the sub-only model failed. Heck , even Lothlorien had more content than Mirkwood expansion lololol.

    Its soooo simple , there is a constant effort of releasing less content for more money , which to an extent makes total sense for a company , but when they overstep and fail , it's not the players fault -_-

    100% Agree with you!

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    A mea culpa before I take a break. . . as I fear I've insulted people that I did not intend to insult and whom I very much respect. . . it is (overly) long. . . but I think it needs said. . .

    I've posted perhaps a hundred times that none of my criticism of the F2P business model or any actions taken thereunder to increase revenue should ever be blamed on SSG or its staff. Though I write of undermining the "integrity of the game," "perverse incentives," or "selling cheats". . . the truth of the matter is that SSG is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Indeed, to not do such things given the realities of the MMO industry would be business malpractice. Turbine pioneered and migrated to the Free-to-Play model because it was clearly the more lucrative model (and doing so arguably saved the game from closure). They had to do so. They should not ever be blamed for doing so. Nor should they be blamed for gradually monetizing more and more aspects of the game. Businesses, in the real world, cannot and should not be expected to turn away revenue. Especially for such nebulous concepts as the "integrity" of a game.

    So why do I keep harping on such terms if not to blame SSG? Because, there is blame to be allotted. But the blame is not SSG's. The blame is ours, the players. If we were more willing to pay for integrity in our games, there would be no incentive for companies like Turbine or SSG to transform their games so fundamentally into what I describe in terms that so many (understandably, in hindsight) misinterpret as being insulting or abusive towards those who are, in the end, only running a business and offering up the fruits of their labor for us to enjoy while acting as the guardian of their product to the best of their ability within various (often unappreciated) constraints.

    So, having reiterated this, I hope it's clear that I bear no ill will and mean no offense towards those who are merely trying to make their business venture as successful as possible. And I daresay that they also want the game to have as much "integrity" as possible while still satisfying the needs of the business. I just can't be any more clear: They're not to be faulted. They should sell us what we are willing to buy.

    I hope this also explains why I focus so much on the various claims that aspects of the Store or the game's monetization (lootboxes) can simply be ignored to no ill effect on others or the game as a whole. I think I have amply demonstrated that this is not the case: That such things affect the game and its integrity more subtly than most consider. But my goal has never been to insult or shame SSG. My goal (unrealistic as it is) has been to diminish the demand for such detrimental things by addressing the rationalizations/arguments made in defense of their purchase/availability.

    Surely, MMOs and much of online computer gaming in general will be F2P-based for the foreseeable future. And I think the hobby is worse off for it. But, one more time, that's not the fault of game developers. They are merely providing us exactly what we've told them (both verbally and via our spending habits) we want. My only point throughout all my long posts on the subject is that perhaps we need to be more careful about what we want, what we'll pay for, and how we think about such things. Because in the end, at the end of all the slippery slopes, where we end up will be our fault, and not in any way the fault of those who merely gave us exactly what we demanded the entire way.

    Best Regards,

    --Hurin
    Re: your statement above that I have in bold, I believe you are placing too much faith in your fellow human beings that they might care enough about their entertainment to analyze the microtransactions they make within the context of f2p model as being a greater evil. I would imagine for 80+% people who play it is only casual amusement.

    As for your post in its entirety, given the length and intensity of your war for the integrity of gaming, why the sudden change in acceptance? Were you threatened with a ban here?

    Personally I agree that subscription model (like the example I posted earlier in this thread to zero acclaim ) makes for a better gaming experience but it would take a group of dedicated gamers/developers/coders going rogue and bypassing the support of a corporate publisher/developer whose purse strings make the rules. An independent effort. Which is why I was only half joking when I suggested elsewhere we all chip in via a crowd funding effort to buy the game

  8. #208
    CaerArianrhod's Avatar
    CaerArianrhod is offline Rohirrim Scout
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Do you perhaps think that when the devs are setting the loot vendor prices, or any other "price" (in effort, challenge, grind, etc.) within the game, that they aren't also considering how making those in-game "prices" higher makes the cash price more attractive?
    Yes. I do think that.
    Any other question?

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbylobs View Post
    But you don't, you log in, you pay your sub, you get annoyed/frustrated/sad/fed up with the game, you log onto the forums complain about the state of the game, act like your on some moral high ground because you don't buy keys, then log back in and pay your sub again,rinse and repeat that for 6 or 7 years and wonder why SSG don't listen to a single word you say and why your now having to massively grind away at dailies just to get a pair of boots that will be obsolete in 2 months or having to do the same 5 quests for 90 days straight just to finish a deed.

    On this, I agree. And as you said, a few weeks after Update 23 hits--and people realize how this "new" approach to gear progression and loot-box inclusion is actually worse than previous iterations--they will be back on here complaining. It's sad, because people should be able to look at Severlin's post and see the clear contradictions and lack of hard data to make that conclusion now.

    /shrug

  10. #210
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    Everybody has a breaking point, we just reach it at different times. Look at the dwindling number of posters here and think of names you never see anymore. I don't think that's a coincidence.

    To me it feels like SSG is saying "You like those free keys? Tough. We're removing them."

    I think it's hard to blame the players for that.
    “All that is gold does not glitter,
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    The old that is strong does not wither,
    Deep roots are not reached by the frost."

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAWorking View Post
    How did you get to that conclusion? Devs have stated the best gear will come from raids and doing instances is the fastest way to get new gear or motes/embers to buy new gear from vendors.

    How is that a worse version?

    1. A player can get gear from embers earned by doing content. Sorted. 1. A player can also get embers from boxes. Add 1 and 1, you get two, which is faster. There is only ever one reason why any player will opt to buy a "go faster" option, and that's if the non-buy version, is a "go slow" option.

    AKA, there would be absolutely no reason for these lootboxes to be in the game, without them being incentive driven, so, incentive driven - they will be.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Sep 13 2018 at 09:25 AM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    A mea culpa before I take a break. . . as I fear I've insulted people that I did not intend to insult and whom I very much respect. . . it is (overly) long. . . but I think it needs said. . .

    I've posted perhaps a hundred times that none of my criticism of the F2P business model or any actions taken thereunder to increase revenue should ever be blamed on SSG or its staff. Though I write of undermining the "integrity of the game," "perverse incentives," or "selling cheats". . . the truth of the matter is that SSG is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Indeed, to not do such things given the realities of the MMO industry would be business malpractice. Turbine pioneered and migrated to the Free-to-Play model because it was clearly the more lucrative model (and doing so arguably saved the game from closure). They had to do so. They should not ever be blamed for doing so. Nor should they be blamed for gradually monetizing more and more aspects of the game. Businesses, in the real world, cannot and should not be expected to turn away revenue. Especially for such nebulous concepts as the "integrity" of a game.

    So why do I keep harping on such terms if not to blame SSG? Because, there is blame to be allotted. But the blame is not SSG's. The blame is ours, the players. If we were more willing to pay for integrity in our games, there would be no incentive for companies like Turbine or SSG to transform their games so fundamentally into what I describe in terms that so many (understandably, in hindsight) misinterpret as being insulting or abusive towards those who are, in the end, only running a business and offering up the fruits of their labor for us to enjoy while acting as the guardian of their product to the best of their ability within various (often unappreciated) constraints.

    So, having reiterated this, I hope it's clear that I bear no ill will and mean no offense towards those who are merely trying to make their business venture as successful as possible. And I daresay that they also want the game to have as much "integrity" as possible while still satisfying the needs of the business. I just can't be any more clear: They're not to be faulted. They should sell us what we are willing to buy.

    I hope this also explains why I focus so much on the various claims that aspects of the Store or the game's monetization (lootboxes) can simply be ignored to no ill effect on others or the game as a whole. I think I have amply demonstrated that this is not the case: That such things affect the game and its integrity more subtly than most consider. But my goal has never been to insult or shame SSG. My goal (unrealistic as it is) has been to diminish the demand for such detrimental things by addressing the rationalizations/arguments made in defense of their purchase/availability.

    Surely, MMOs and much of online computer gaming in general will be F2P-based for the foreseeable future. And I think the hobby is worse off for it. But, one more time, that's not the fault of game developers. They are merely providing us exactly what we've told them (both verbally and via our spending habits) we want. My only point throughout all my long posts on the subject is that perhaps we need to be more careful about what we want, what we'll pay for, and how we think about such things. Because in the end, at the end of all the slippery slopes, where we end up will be our fault, and not in any way the fault of those who merely gave us exactly what we demanded the entire way.

    Best Regards,

    --Hurin
    Quote Originally Posted by Alewyze View Post
    As for your post in its entirety, given the length and intensity of your war for the integrity of gaming, why the sudden change in acceptance? Were you threatened with a ban here?

    When you read Hurin's post above and then reflect on all his posting on the subject. He hasn't deviated. Imo he has defined his thoughts and honed them quite sharply. His logic on this is near impossible to dispute.
    Università degli Studi di Roma "La Sapienza" Sapienza University of Rome

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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alewyze View Post
    As for your post in its entirety, given the length and intensity of your war for the integrity of gaming, why the sudden change in acceptance? Were you threatened with a ban here?
    There has been no change. Here's two similar (though shorter!) posts among many over the years. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    All of which is why I never lay the blame at Turbine's feet. They did what any business would do. The fault lies with the players who are willing to accept such a business model. We make such a perverse business model more lucrative. Because we lie to ourselves and tell ourselves that what we purchase need not affect anybody but ourselves. . . even as our aggregate purchasing decisions fundamentally transform the game, its design philosophy, and its fortunes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    And as I've said before, Turbine is full of good and decent people doing exactly what they should be doing. Turbine had to convert to the F2P model. As the more lucrative option, it would have been business malpractice not to embrace F2P. The responsibility for the direction the MMO industry has taken (towards F2P) is the result of players settling for it. Even demanding it. Turbine is merely giving us what we want and are willing to pay for. . . I just think we woulnd't want it or pay for it if more of us understood it more fully.
    --H
    Installing LotRO -- One Guide to Rule Them All!
    Purchasing LotRO -- Guide to Building Your Own "Lifetime" Account.
    DirectX / Direct3D Error Messages? -- Solution.

  14. #214
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    444
    LotRO is just a product. If it does not bring revenue, it will be discontinued. SSG is just a company, composed of people. Even if company goes under, people will go on, likely getting positions working on other games within same general network. Who will be hurt are the players who often have lots of emotional investment in the game. I support the game by paying VIP sub. I frankly do not like the way LotRO monetization is designed either. You can buy significant improvements for your character direct from store, and that gives them an incentive to design content in a way that it is arduous, un-fun, and that people rather turn to store than to earn upgrades via content. Yet we upgrade our characters in order to do the content, and if content is arduous and un-fun, why bother. It is a spiral of death.

    It does not have to be this way, though it is hard to imagine how they can redesign things at this point. One huge problem I see, VIP does not carry much of an impact, especially for old timers who already unlocked the things they needed.

    Take another old MMO, also managed by Daybreak: EverQuest. Used to be a sub but now it is F2P. F2P players have access to all game content, up to 3 expacs back. Or they can buy latest expansion and have access to everything. However, being F2P severely handicaps you at higher levels. You can not use higher rank spells. You cannot use best group/raid tiers of gear. (You can equip it but it has 0 stats) You cannnot use better augments (essences) . Your mercs (skirmish soldiers usable everywhere but raids) are weaker. You cannot gain new AAs beyond 1000 (essentially trait points). Though you retain use of abilities gained while subbed. In short, you can go F2P just fine till about lvl 75 and never feel the difference. Past that it becomes an increasing inconvenience and by top levels (105-110) an F2P character is nigh useless. If you want to be functional in top endgame, you need to sub. There is a store, but it is mostly fluff. Cosmetics, illusions, housing, mount appearances, plus QoL stuff like xp pots, additional character/merc slots, etc. No actual gear in store.
    However, there is a twist. Annual sub is $120/year, monthly is $15/mo, but there are also krono, $18 each. You buy them for cash from store, and can then trade them in game to other characters for in-game currency or items. A sale of single krono can go a LONG way. One can level a character 1-100+ never wanting for money/gear as long they are smart about their shopping.
    When one consumes a krono, it adds one month of sub time to account. Essentially, players can sell their grind efforts to others in order to finance their subs and remain endgame-vuable, but the real money goes to the game company. A far better system. It also worth mention that only lower tiers of group gear are tradeable. Raid gear/currency comes exclusively from raids. Though it is worth mention that EQ raids are 54man affairs. Best group gear must be won deep in dungeons and is not tradeable.

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    26
    Catching up on all the replies!


    Some answers, updates and a HEADS UP on some upcoming changes:

    (A few changes are coming from some edge cases as a result of this – these are outlined below. )

    ~ The current plan is that everything from lootboxes - cosmetics and gear – will be available in game. Gear from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Embers of Enchantment. Cosmetics from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Figments of Splendor. Gear disenchants into Embers, and cosmetics – including things like mounts and pets – disenchant into Figments. The Embers of Enchantment vendor also sells Figments of Splendor so you can convert Embers of Enchantment into Figments of Splendor. (Players will not be able to convert Figments into Embers or Motes.)

    The reasoning for having Figments of Splendor is so players playing higher level characters can pursue cosmetics on vendors in lower level content without feeling that they need to do older content, and lower level characters can still get the cosmetics from the endgame by earning Figments of Splendor. Another cool thing about Figments of Splendor is that we could eventually make other content provide Figments of Splendor; for example various festival quests might have an option to provide Figments of Splendor so festival participants can pick up items from the Figments of Splendor vendor. To clarify, we don’t have plans to allow all cosmetics in game to disenchant into Figments, but we do have that option for various areas of the game as time goes on.

    ~ Our plan for older content that is no longer considered end game is to convert the system away from keys as well. Older content will drop Motes of Enchantment, and the game will have vendors that accept Motes of Enchantment for older loot. The new leveling lootbox would drop loot that scales to the level of the character opening the box, with a minimum level of 30 and a maximum level of 115. Gear would disenchant into Mote of Enchantment, and cosmetics would disenchant into Figments of Splendor. We will still honor the Sturdy Steel Keys and have a way to get older lootboxes so remaining keys can still be used and players will find a use for them. We are working on a way to do that.

    ~ We are trying to determine how much of the older game we can convert before the next update, so I don’t want to get into specifics about what will be in place until the team has a chance to assess the progress of those efforts. Some older areas might not be converted until a later release.

    HEAD UPS:

    ~ There are a small number of cosmetic items that currently disenchant to Ash of Enchantment. With the new system these items will disenchant to Figments of Splendor. If you would rather have Ash and have it convert to Motes, disenchant them before the update!

    ~ In the new system, cosmetic pets that can be earned from the lockboxes will have an Account bind status but they will also disenchant into Figments of Splendor.

    Cordovan will be working on a separate post explicitly outlining the HEADS UP information to increase the chances of people seeing it.

    Sev~

    (Edit: some suggested edits arrived right after I posted this!)
    Last edited by Severlin; Sep 13 2018 at 01:03 PM.

  16. #216
    And you still don't see how convoluted all this is?

    Good grief... You've created a monster out of all proportion and do not know how to control it do you?

    Oh for happier times when we just had to worry about rng and running the same content over and over until our luck changed. And yes I can't believe I just said that but its far better than this nonsense.
    ----A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything----

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    474
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Some answers, updates and a HEADS UP on some upcoming changes:

    ~ The current plan is that everything from lootboxes - cosmetics and gear – will be available in game. Gear from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Embers of Enchantment. Cosmetics from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Figments of Splendor. Gear disenchants into Embers, and cosmetics – including things like mounts and pets – disenchant into Figments. The Embers of Enchantment vendor also sells Figments of Splendor so you can convert Embers of Enchantment into Figments of Splendor. (Players will not be able to convert Figments into Embers or Motes.)

    The reasoning for having Figments of Splendor is so players playing higher level characters can pursue cosmetics on vendors in lower level content without feeling that they need to do older content, and lower level characters can still get the cosmetics from the endgame by earning Figments of Splendor. Another cool thing about Figments of Splendor is that we could eventually make other content provide Figments of Splendor; for example various festival quests might have an option to provide Figments of Splendor so festival participants can pick up items from the Figments of Splendor vendor. To clarify, we don’t have plans to allow all cosmetics in game to disenchant into Figments, but we do have that option for various areas of the game as time goes on.
    This post was so comlpicated it took me several reads to understand

    I think you guys are way overcomplicating this. But still cautiously optimistic about the whole thing.
    Earbold (Laurelin [EN-RP])
    Member of the Bandits raid alliance
    Original Challenger of Gothmog and the Abyss

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    92
    Allow conversion of Figments into Embers or Motes, and this might be okay.

  19. #219
    Interesting stuff, Severlin, thanks for posting.

    Some questions:

    1) Sounds like the current sturdy steel keys will not open these new "leveling boxes." What kind of keys then will?

    2) Are Motes of Enchantment replacing ALL other currencies in the lower levels of the game, such as the rep tokens, etc? Or is this a new currency that is in addition to the older currencies already in use? Are skirmish marks affected? I'm confused about what role these "motes" play for characters that are not end game and what "older loot" you are referring to.

    3) Are motes, embers and figments all usable ACCOUNT-WIDE?

  20. #220
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    325
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    ~ The current plan is that everything from lootboxes - cosmetics and gear – will be available in game. Gear from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Embers of Enchantment. Cosmetics from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Figments of Splendor. Gear disenchants into Embers, and cosmetics – including things like mounts and pets – disenchant into Figments. The Embers of Enchantment vendor also sells Figments of Splendor so you can convert Embers of Enchantment into Figments of Splendor. (Players will not be able to convert Figments into Embers or Motes.)

    The reasoning for having Figments of Splendor is so players playing higher level characters can pursue cosmetics on vendors in lower level content without feeling that they need to do older content, and lower level characters can still get the cosmetics from the endgame by earning Figments of Splendor. Another cool thing about Figments of Splendor is that we could eventually make other content provide Figments of Splendor; for example various festival quests might have an option to provide Figments of Splendor so festival participants can pick up items from the Figments of Splendor vendor. To clarify, we don’t have plans to allow all cosmetics in game to disenchant into Figments, but we do have that option for various areas of the game as time goes on.

    ~ Our plan for older content that is no longer considered end game is to convert the system away from keys as well. Older content will drop Motes of Enchantment, and the game will have vendors that accept Motes of Enchantment for older loot. The new leveling lootbox would drop loot that scales to the level of the character opening the box, with a minimum level of 30 and a maximum level of 115. Gear would disenchant into Mote of Enchantment, and cosmetics would disenchant into Figments of Splendor. We will still honor the Sturdy Steel Keys and have a way to get older lootboxes so remaining keys can still be used and players will find a use for them. We are working on a way to do that.

    ~ We are trying to determine how much of the older game we can convert before the next update, so I don’t want to get into specifics about what will be in place until the team has a chance to assess the progress of those efforts. Some older areas might not be converted until a later release.
    Sweet Jesus, what a mess.


  21. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by B749 View Post
    This post was so comlpicated it took me several reads to understand

    I think you guys are way overcomplicating this. But still cautiously optimistic about the whole thing.
    I completely agree. We shouldn't need a damn currency conversion chart in order to play and enjoy the game.
    Owner - Laurelin RP Group Discord server - https://discord.me/laurelinrp

  22. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    Catching up on all the replies!


    Some answers, updates and a HEADS UP on some upcoming changes:

    (A few changes are coming from some edge cases as a result of this – these are outlined below. )

    ~ The current plan is that everything from lootboxes - cosmetics and gear – will be available in game. Gear from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Embers of Enchantment. Cosmetics from the endgame lootbox will be on a vendor that accepts Figments of Splendor. Gear disenchants into Embers, and cosmetics – including things like mounts and pets – disenchant into Figments. The Embers of Enchantment vendor also sells Figments of Splendor so you can convert Embers of Enchantment into Figments of Splendor. (Players will not be able to convert Figments into Embers or Motes.)

    The reasoning for having Figments of Splendor is so players playing higher level characters can pursue cosmetics on vendors in lower level content without feeling that they need to do older content, and lower level characters can still get the cosmetics from the endgame by earning Figments of Splendor. Another cool thing about Figments of Splendor is that we could eventually make other content provide Figments of Splendor; for example various festival quests might have an option to provide Figments of Splendor so festival participants can pick up items from the Figments of Splendor vendor. To clarify, we don’t have plans to allow all cosmetics in game to disenchant into Figments, but we do have that option for various areas of the game as time goes on.

    ~ Our plan for older content that is no longer considered end game is to convert the system away from keys as well. Older content will drop Motes of Enchantment, and the game will have vendors that accept Motes of Enchantment for older loot. The new leveling lootbox would drop loot that scales to the level of the character opening the box, with a minimum level of 30 and a maximum level of 115. Gear would disenchant into Mote of Enchantment, and cosmetics would disenchant into Figments of Splendor. We will still honor the Sturdy Steel Keys and have a way to get older lootboxes so remaining keys can still be used and players will find a use for them. We are working on a way to do that.

    ~ We are trying to determine how much of the older game we can convert before the next update, so I don’t want to get into specifics about what will be in place until the team has a chance to assess the progress of those efforts. Some older areas might not be converted until a later release.

    HEAD UPS:

    ~ There are a small number of cosmetic items that currently disenchant to Ash of Enchantment. With the new system these items will disenchant to Figments of Splendor. If you would rather have Ash and have it convert to Motes, disenchant them before the update!

    ~ In the new system, cosmetic pets that can be earned from the lockboxes will have an Account bind status but they will also disenchant into Figments of Splendor.

    Cordovan will be working on a separate post explicitly outlining the HEADS UP information to increase the chances of people seeing it.

    Sev~

    (Edit: some suggested edits arrived right after I posted this!)


    Do Motes of Enchantment buy Figments, too? Or do we have to get older cosmetics before the update?

    Since you speak of the remaining Sturdy Steel Keys to be used on older lootboxes, my understanding is that new ones of these, too, will be store only after the update, but we can use those we already aquired before the update? So, no more landscape drop or deed rewarding of Sturdy Steel Keys? Just asking.

  23. #223
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,061
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGeekGirl View Post
    I completely agree. We shouldn't need a damn currency conversion chart in order to play and enjoy the game.
    TLDR; Endgame lootbox gear will return a gear currency, endgame lootbox cosmetics will return a cosmetic currency, you can swap gear currency for cosmetic currency but not the other way around. We intend to put both cosmetics and gear obtained from the endgame lootbox into the embers vendor. Sturdy Steel Keys are going away, but it'll take a bit of time, and you'll be able to do something with your deprecated keys. Non-endgame lootboxes will be useful throughout most of the non-cap level range.
    Community Manager, Lord of the Rings Online
    Follow LOTRO on: Twitter - Facebook - Google+ - Pinterest - Twitch - YouTube
    Find Cordovan on: Twitter Instagram
    Support: help.standingstonegames.com
    coolcool

  24. #224
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    325
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    TLDR...
    Imagine how simple it would all be, if you would just get rid of loot-boxes.

    smh

  25. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    TLDR; Endgame lootbox gear will return a gear currency, endgame lootbox cosmetics will return a cosmetic currency, you can swap gear currency for cosmetic currency but not the other way around. We intend to put both cosmetics and gear obtained from the endgame lootbox into the embers vendor. Sturdy Steel Keys are going away, but it'll take a bit of time, and you'll be able to do something with your deprecated keys. Non-endgame lootboxes will be useful throughout most of the non-cap level range.

    Hey Cordovan, his complaint might be that this is complicated enough that maybe you guys should actually put a chart together. I've played a lot of MMO's and seen a lot of strange things, but this situation with the flip-flopping to systems that we don't even want and are struggling to properly understand is not good. Even you guys seem a little confused as to what you want in this game. A proper, well thought out post and maybe some charts might actually be in order.

    Oh, and it seems people are saying you don't understand how loot boxes in their current form are Pay to Win. As far as the MMO community is concerned, P2W is more of a blanket term. Pretty much the fact that we can acquire gear with stats on it automatically categorizes it as P2W. We are not forced into it, but the option is still there. And this is at any points in the MMO's life and doesn't matter between either PvE or PvP focused games. A lot of others have pointed out that loot boxes and having gear available for real money ends up effecting gameplay decisions which tend to make the game not fun. So even if we don't partake in loot boxes, we still feel the effects.

    And I agree 100% with Hurin. Loot Boxes are the communities fault. We really should start the mantra of encouraging people to not buy keys. That's the only way it would change. I'll pay for content packs and cosmetics. Hell, even as a lifer I'd pay a reduced subscription fee if it meant reverting a few systems back to before Helms Deep and cleaning up performance issues.
    Last edited by TheHylianLink98; Sep 13 2018 at 02:50 PM.

 

 
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