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  1. #26
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    If the flowers weren't so monochrome then it would be more palatable. If they were varied, like Bag End on the Hobbit charselect screen, then it would be much more acceptable.
    << Co-founder of The Firebrands of Caruja on Landroval >>
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  2. #27
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    I'm glad to see people being passionate about the Shire. It is actually still one of the prettiest and most nostalgic areas in the game for me, and you really don't need to change much there. As a matter of fact, changing things in the Shire could be for the worse, because it's so well liked, as these changes have partly shown. It's good as it is. As others have said in this thread, the copy-paste function should not be overly used here, as the Shire is miles away from, say, Gondor, which was where these flowers and bushes were first introduced. If anything, you'd need to create unique flowers for the Shire, and also, please don't make areas look overgrown - Hobbits are famed gardeners.

    The banners need to go, or be changed into something different, something smaller, something unique for each settlement, maybe with a faction/town symbol, but we need to get rid of the large, intruding flag-banners as they are now. Use them for festivals or other special events, that's fine, but not permanently.

    If anything, open up the area more like you did with Breelands in the previous update, that was beautiful. Now, the Shire is more open already, but I'm sure there are things you could do. I really liked what you did to the landscape in Breelands!
    Brethwyn Bearsbane of House Breddinga [100-Guardian]
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  3. #28
    Thank you for the screenshots Linawillow.

    Good ideas Silmelin.

    I agree with what most said already, it's overdone and looking too uniform (boring).

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by auximenes View Post
    If the flowers weren't so monochrome then it would be more palatable. If they were varied, like Bag End on the Hobbit charselect screen, then it would be much more acceptable.
    I think exactly this.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Funk View Post
    If wanting to reference someone, be sure You read and comprehend what they wrote/said/meant. More words....
    Thanks for your reply!

    So, the line was humor and not intended to be an accurate rebuttal to your thesis. Your statement was also not actually 1% of responses. The rest was syntactical hair-splitting. The point though, remains: Fiddling with settings to work around bad design is not a solution for bad design. Yes, if they implement horrible, garish nonsense we can all work around that. However, is that really the best strategy for solving the issue? Wouldn't a better plan be to provide all the feedback we can to the developers such that they receive and understand the message that no one likes or wants these changes? Won't the game be improved if the Shire looks good without resorting to twiddling bars every time we enter or exit a region?

    Basically, we want the devs to rethink these downgrades. You know, for the children.

  6. #31
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by rushl23 View Post
    Thanks for your reply!

    So, the line was humor and not intended to be an accurate rebuttal to your thesis. Your statement was also not actually 1% of responses. The rest was syntactical hair-splitting. The point though, remains: Fiddling with settings to work around bad design is not a solution for bad design. Yes, if they implement horrible, garish nonsense we can all work around that. However, is that really the best strategy for solving the issue? Wouldn't a better plan be to provide all the feedback we can to the developers such that they receive and understand the message that no one likes or wants these changes? Won't the game be improved if the Shire looks good without resorting to twiddling bars every time we enter or exit a region?

    Basically, we want the devs to rethink these downgrades. You know, for the children.
    Eheh! Thank You as well !!!

    I do agree that in an optimal world (fantasy or real) everything I see would be in my taste. All opinions would lead to "good" results that fits my view (joke).

    Acctually that would be a really scary world to me. No variation and diversity. Just alot of agreeing wannabe copies of me running around. Oh the nightmare.

    However back to topic, we are talking taste here. A majority of people might like a certain type of attire but there is always that one person or a few that do not. With a meter that can get You from no frills at 0% and alot at full, then there is personal choice. It's why it's there.

    You and I might agree that it does indeed look best on lower or lowest in The Shire. However there will always be that person or those persons that don't. Now we have a personal choice.

    If we set even the highest setting on basically very few frills (grass, flowers etc) then the ones who prefer more have no choice but to accept Yours and my taste. I am always for personal freedom of choice rather than forcing. Even if the other persons taste or choice does not agree with mine. I would agree if there were no choice here, if we were all forced to see it with tons of frills (grass and flowers) all over and no way to turn that down.

    Just as freedom come with responsibility, so does choices. As an example, just because I have the freedom to listen to music doesn't mean I should listen to it with max volume at 7 in the morning or 2 o'clock night. Then if I want to listen to it I use headphones. Same thing here, if there was only one option (acctually then it's no option) to see all the frills that would be bad, as then it would be forced. However hear we can use the meter and chose. It does not affect anyone else what we chose. You see what You chose, I see what I chose, someone else see what they chose. Full setting means over the top (in my opinion), lowest mean 0 frills. Then alot of setting there inbetween. If we remove all frills even on highest setting, means we limit personal choices.

    While I believe in democracy (rule of the majority), as it's the best system of all the systems throughout history (so far) that have at least functioned for an extended period (no its' far from perfect). One of the biggest downside with it is that it often supress minorities in the name of the majority. Of course the minority should not be allowed to supress the majority either (like a few with alot of power, financial or other type of influence). I use that refence as per this forum where a majority (at least in this thread) share a similar taste and want to make that the only choice available. That is the downside of democracy, as no one considers the few (we don't even know how many or few really, jst the ones posting in this thread) that does not share that taste.

    That's why choices that affects no one else is a good thing when possible. In this case it is possible with the frills meter.

    That is the point I want to make come across. As well as the suggestion to try it, as it might solve the eyesore for some.

    Remember that we are talking about taste here. Taste is simply a subjective opinion shaped by ones own life and there is no right or wrong in taste, just personal taste.

    For examaple there are quite a few mounts and outfits people run around with in-game that I find really out of place and looks like rubbish if You ask me. However obviosuly those wearing them do not agree and I must accept that. I must always remember that it is my opinion, based on my taste and my taste and opinions are not some universal rules that everyone should or must follow. Of course it's different if we talk about fitting into the lore. Then it can be argued back and forth, but taste can never have a right or wrong.

    As a sidenote, I do agree that there are scenarios where one must step in and limit choices, regulate or even forbid certain things, when some do not take the responsibility that comes along with freedom. Like with for example dangerous drugs or predatorial practices by big corporations, pollution, fracturing (a.k.a. fracking) etc (as in when a few with alot of influence and power abuse that power and pray on the weak or those without a choice) and their actions do affect people on a bigger scale (as in pollution) or a smaller personal scale (as in addiction) but that is totally food for another discussion and not in this thread and probably not in these forums, except if it relates to gaming or gaming companies specifically.

    Oh and as a 2nd sidenote: Remember that this was early Beta. To me it looks like the frills have just been autoplaced and no manual fine tuning yet. The frills sticking up randomly (just about anywhere) in some of those screenshots looks weird and typically like some autoprogram/script has just spread them according to some setting, not fine tuned by a person. Hopefully it will improve before live. No matter how dense on higst frill setting or not (on lowest) it should look somewhat estetic and realistic. Not just thrown around.
    Last edited by Lord.Funk; Aug 26 2018 at 04:13 PM.

  7. #32
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    Some small things i found in today's build exploring the shire.

    Flooded area in Brokenborings on the road downtown



    Mushroom rocks? or whatever poking out of the water next to bridge on road to Farmer maggon's house.



    and this Shrub does not turn off with Frills and they everywhere I do not like them at all but that's my opinion i feel like it don't hit, but everything else looks great.



    overall the updates are fine.
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  8. #33
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    Exclamation

    All my Hobbit alts on both servers went the trouble of sending me a collective note asking me to post this:

    Please do away with them flags!

    Thanks on behalf of them as well as my humble self in advance.

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  9. #34
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    I agree that the flags need to be removed or reduced in size and quantity.

    The one thing I'd like to see in any update to the Shire is Hobbit children. That would really enhance the immersion factor, like it did for Rohan, etc.

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urwendil View Post
    All my Hobbit alts on both servers went the trouble of sending me a collective note asking me to post this:

    Please do away with them flags!

    Thanks on behalf of them as well as my humble self in advance.
    Yeah the flags still there I don't like them as much either for the shire. but is what it is hopefully they will remove them.

  11. #36
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    I saw this big fella in Frogmorton. I guess I should have stood next to him as a reference, but he's as big as a horse, floats in the air, and splashes around up there.



    And I will join the chorus of people who find the banners very out of character for the Shire. And the flowers everywhere are garish and distracting, especially the bright ones in Michel Delving. LOTRO has brought so much of Middle-earth to life with such care and attention to detail, that it kind of stings when you guys do something so out of character like this (see also, the stone walls in Celondim). Listen to your players. We don't hate change just because it's different - we loved the changes to the Old Forest - but we want you to keep with the spirit of the original works. The Shire is simple and rustic.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urwendil View Post
    All my Hobbit alts on both servers went the trouble of sending me a collective note asking me to post this:

    Please do away with them flags!

    Thanks on behalf of them as well as my humble self in advance.
    Yes, please REMOVE THE FLAGS!!!!

    Totally out of character for the Shire!
    Arequain Belechael, Legate of Celosien, Minas Brethil, Lebennin

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belechael View Post
    Yes, please REMOVE THE FLAGS!!!!

    Totally out of character for the Shire!
    I agree, there are too many flags and they are too big! The floated road is great! I like these details!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry View Post
    Some small things i found in today's build exploring the shire.<snip>
    Thanks for the notes, Pontin. We'll take a look and get these bugs resolved.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Funk View Post
    Oh and as a 2nd sidenote: Remember that this was early Beta. To me it looks like the frills have just been autoplaced and no manual fine tuning yet. The frills sticking up randomly (just about anywhere) in some of those screenshots looks weird and typically like some autoprogram/script has just spread them according to some setting, not fine tuned by a person. Hopefully it will improve before live. No matter how dense on higst frill setting or not (on lowest) it should look somewhat estetic and realistic. Not just thrown around.
    Some behind the scenes info: On the landscape, we have a couple of different ways in which we can limit where frills appear, particularly on roads, cliffs and rocky surfaces. One of our "old school" solutions was to have a property on the terrain texture that would prevent procedurally placed assets (such as frills, trees, and bushes) from appearing where that texture was painted. While that might work out well, there are sometimes instances where we would want scene assets to appear on a given terrain texture and to make that happen, we would have to make a copy of the texture without the property on it. Not super ideal or efficient.

    Our more modern approach is to not use that property on the terrain and instead place "frill killer" entities in areas where we don't want scene assets to appear (such as on roads). This gives us more fine control (at the cost of a bit more work on our end).

    What was seen in Scary (and other places) was a result of the property being turned off on the terrain texture but not yet having the hand placed "frill killers" and scene cleanup happen yet.

    Stuff like this should be a reminder to everyone that, while it is exciting to look at and see new stuff on Bullroarer before it goes to the live production servers, it is possible you will also see work in progress and reactions should be tempered with that in mind (a gentle question to us of "is this behaving as intended?" first as opposed to a more... passionate reaction is much appreciated).

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Scenario View Post
    Stuff like this should be a reminder to everyone that, while it is exciting to look at and see new stuff on Bullroarer before it goes to the live production servers, it is possible you will also see work in progress and reactions should be tempered with that in mind (a gentle question to us of "is this behaving as intended?" first as opposed to a more... passionate reaction is much appreciated).
    There may be a few reasons for the "passionate reactions". This is an iconic zone, and based on this thread, the changes seem out of place for many: The sudden hoisting of lots of flags and the massive flower growth in particular.

    More importantly, though, the changes have not been covered by the release notes, and I have seen no other communication on this either. Which might explain why some are wondering what is going on. Is this just testing, a work in progress or planned permanent changes?

    As for gentle questions, there was this one. From August 23rd:

    Quote Originally Posted by Linawillow View Post
    I'd be curious to know what the intention behind all this is?
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scenario View Post
    Some behind the scenes info: On the landscape, we have a couple of different ways in which we can limit where frills appear, particularly on roads, cliffs and rocky surfaces. One of our "old school" solutions was to have a property on the terrain texture that would prevent procedurally placed assets (such as frills, trees, and bushes) from appearing where that texture was painted. While that might work out well, there are sometimes instances where we would want scene assets to appear on a given terrain texture and to make that happen, we would have to make a copy of the texture without the property on it. Not super ideal or efficient.

    Our more modern approach is to not use that property on the terrain and instead place "frill killer" entities in areas where we don't want scene assets to appear (such as on roads). This gives us more fine control (at the cost of a bit more work on our end).

    What was seen in Scary (and other places) was a result of the property being turned off on the terrain texture but not yet having the hand placed "frill killers" and scene cleanup happen yet.

    Stuff like this should be a reminder to everyone that, while it is exciting to look at and see new stuff on Bullroarer before it goes to the live production servers, it is possible you will also see work in progress and reactions should be tempered with that in mind (a gentle question to us of "is this behaving as intended?" first as opposed to a more... passionate reaction is much appreciated).
    Can you assure us that the flags are also not intended to be final? I appreciate the intention of adding flavour to the zones, but I, and I think many others on this thread, don't think they work as well in the Shire. If they're already disappeared as of this build, then please ignore me!
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linawillow View Post
    The sudden hoisting of lots of flags and the massive flower growth in particular.
    Work is currently underway to remove the vast majority of the flags. A small number will remain dotted here and there in order to provide some additional color pops and scene motion but the volume will be nowhere near what it is/was currently.

    Also, blue bushes will be going back to green.

    Both are cases of not all experiments being successful but worth the try to see how they feel.

  19. #44
    There are -some- situations where having "flags" might make some sense- but NOT in the context of MOST of the Shire.


    Would Lotho Sackville-Baggins, wanting to make his "House" more prestigious than the -real- "Baggins," get tempted into announcing his new-found land-power with a flag? YES. But WHO could possibly put such an absurd, vain thought in his head? "Sharkey."

    However, that would only make sense if a "seeming fair but -being foul-" theme was happening in the South Farthing- which isn't in the game yet, and I'm assuming that that's where the Sackville-Bagginses were from- though I'm not entirely sure.

    Yes, by the time of the Scouring, Sharkey has totally trashed the Shire! But I'd imagine huge, landed, high-scale, almost-industrial pipeweed farms in the South Farthing getting vain and over-the-top. One of the subtler forms of this was Lobelia's desire for Bilbo's silver-ware- since silverware, in British society, was considered particularly valuable- the best you've got that you'd bring-out on Sunday's (which Tolkien transposed into Arda- not only here, but in Frodo's song in the Prancing Pony as well).

    Who know's? Maybe Sharkey-sympathizers had flags *(just not with White Hand's on them- YET! (I tend to use caps for emphasis, not yelling)).


    HOWEVER:


    The thought of -every single little hobbit-hole in the Shire- having such huge banners outside REALLY disorient's the Shire's sense of place. Could that have been an Arnorian thing? Certainly- Noble Houses always love to advertise and establish how great they think they are (GoT's the bigger example of this; Love how this medieval reality found its way into Rohan and Gondor in-game).

    Could the Mayor of the Shire perhaps have a "Mayor's Banner" of sorts? Tolkien doesn't really specify, per the Tolkien Professor's Exploring LOTR course, the Mayor's more of a ceremonial role at feasts by the time of LOTR- but... having a banner or two might be "festive" there in that case. Could the Thain, even though -that- is now a ceremonial role, have such a banner? Sure- maybe of the House of Took- because banners and flags tend to be ceremonial objects; good for pomp and circumstance. But- not necessarily well-established families in the Shire. Bilbo Baggins had no flags that we know-of- I find that Bilbo much enjoyed peace and quiet far more and wouldn't -want- to advertise himself.

    Often, the name's enough, without much more fluff. By-words, gossip of a family's reputation- good or bad-, seems to be the norm of indicating who's-who in the Shire (and whether or not they own their silver spoons).


    Again, could Sharkey try to make things look fairer on the outside before its too late and the Shire starts looking like Mordor? YES! But probably not in the East or West Farthings.

    The Game has Sharkey's men in the North Farthing- so, there, it actually might be poignant to dress-up Dwaling in flags while keeping it ruined (again, the foul versus fair dynamic, it would visually say, "This once looked fair, but its really foul, and here's why- look at the irony in the pretty flags surrounded by ruins").

    South Farthing? Oh my... I'd imagine that's the most posh, vain, over-the-top part of the Shire, and that that's what Sharkey would have played-into in order to deceptively weave his way into the inner workings of the Shire. With all that trading back and forth down to a certain river through a certain gap and up into a certain vale, I'd imagine that the South Farthing would benefit -vainly- but would ultimately end-up an awful mess in the long-run- because, well... they got TRICKED PRECIOUS!!!

    XD Hehehe

    So, I'm totally -for- getting rid of most of the flags that have been added to the Shire. BUT- perhaps, Lobelia's "new home" is fine having such vanity, because that's who Lobelia is? The North Farthing- any indications of.... fluff creeping-in could maybe indicate the false vision that Sharkey probably gave some of the Shire-folk as he wove-his-way-in? He's a Sauron-imitator, after all, and Sauron tends to do that sort of thing- present false visions of beauty and glory, yielding sorrow and destruction.

    EDIT:

    Thanks Scenario for letting us know

    All I'll ask, per the above, is this: I'd greatly appreciate it, would LOVE IT, if: Could you please be more thoughtful in terms of which flags stay versus which flags go? Flavor and aesthetics are nice here and there- sure!!! But I'd LOVE it, if possible, if... there could be a little bit more "lore" behind which hobbit homes have the flags versus which do not- so that its more fun to sort of read-into, just plain visually, where different parts of the Shire are at and what's happening to them (would also be really fun to contrast it all, when eventually, the South Farthing and Scouring finally enter the game in the future!).

    Also glad that many of the flags are leaving- mainly because the overall aesthetic of the Shire is sort of a folk, country culture (e.g. the British Mid-lands for example), and by the time of LOTR, the Shire feels far more agrarian and localized and very much not unified or organized beyond, say, families and ceremonial roles like the Thain, Mayor, Bounders, and Sheriffs (well, and for Buckland especially- heads or elders of houses like Saradoc Brandybuck)
    Last edited by Phantion; Sep 19 2018 at 01:04 PM.
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

    .

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Scenario View Post
    Work is currently underway to remove the vast majority of the flags. A small number will remain dotted here and there in order to provide some additional color pops and scene motion but the volume will be nowhere near what it is/was currently.

    Also, blue bushes will be going back to green.
    Grand, thanks! I'm still curious to see how it will turn out when going live, but the dialling down sounds promising.
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  21. #46
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    An argument against flags and other fripperies. Hobbits are not showy. They're so not showy that if one were to be showy people would talk about them in an unflattering manner (though possibly not to their face, if they talk to them at all). They would definitely be considered "odd". Petitions would be raised. Party invites would not be sent.

    So, if the art devs don't want to be talked about in unflattering terms, or be considered "odd", and would like invites to parties, they should be careful or a petition will be sent to old Flourdumpling.

  22. #47
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    About Hobbits and Men, see this: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hobbits.
    If I am remembering correctly, JRR Tolkien described Hobbits as definite relatives of Man, having the same kind of habits and affinities; closer to Men than Elves or Dwarves. Remember, the main difference between the biological bodies of Elves and Men are negligible. They are interfertile. The differences between them are the "fates of their respective spirits", or fea, not their rhoa. Dwarves were the most different, being made by a lesser being who was confused about their nature. Nothing is said about where the spirits of Dwarves go, after the death of their bodies and after their time of waiting in the Halls of Mandos. We know what happens to Elves. They are bound to Arda as long as Arda exists. We know what happens to Men, likewise. They leave the 'circles of the world'. Hobbits, being a kind of Man, likely also have the Gift of Freedom, and their fea leave Arda.

    It is not out of bounds of reason, for me, that hobbit clans had badges that declared their houses, so to speak. That said, I'd say that these were not garish. They would be reminders of who was related to whom; of which Mithrandir reminds us that such was important to know when dealing with the Little People.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altair6 View Post
    An argument against flags and other fripperies. Hobbits are not showy. They're so not showy that if one were to be showy people would talk about them in an unflattering manner (though possibly not to their face, if they talk to them at all). They would definitely be considered "odd". Petitions would be raised. Party invites would not be sent.

    So, if the art devs don't want to be talked about in unflattering terms, or be considered "odd", and would like invites to parties, they should be careful or a petition will be sent to old Flourdumpling.
    As game designers, developers and artists, we are entirely used to being talked about in unflattering terms. Doesn't mean we don't hope for better though. :P

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scenario View Post
    Work is currently underway to remove the vast majority of the flags. A small number will remain dotted here and there in order to provide some additional color pops and scene motion but the volume will be nowhere near what it is/was currently.

    Also, blue bushes will be going back to green.

    Both are cases of not all experiments being successful but worth the try to see how they feel.
    Very relieved to read this, and thank you very much for reading and listening to the forum community. That said, I am also very glad you are experimenting and trying to freshen up 10 year old landscapes. What you did in Bree-land was superb, opening up areas and such. There is something nostalgic about the Shire, though, which makes it almost untouchable in many people's eyes
    Brethwyn Bearsbane of House Breddinga [100-Guardian]
    Hygweard of Rohan, High Protector of Bree-Land and Lord of Emyn Uial
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  25. #50
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    The Bree-land and Ered Luin rebuilds were successful primarily because they didn't redesign the spaces, they just updated them and made them more accessible. Unnecessary walls and hills came down, waterways and fields got new art, but nothing *changed*.

    This Shire rebuild feels like the opposite. From the screenshots, it looks like the unnecessary rocky areas are still there, but new gratuitous decor was added where it shouldn't be. I'm glad you're listening to the unanimous feedback here, Scenario, and hope you don't take it personally. The Shire is a special place, unlike any other in the game, and should changed only with the deftest hand and when absolutely necessary.
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone & Landroval

 

 
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