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  1. #1

    Is Critical Defence a wasted stat for Abyss T2 tanking?

    Hey smart peoples,

    On another thread, someone suggested that there is no critical damage in the Abyss raid.
    Is this true?

    If so, then it seems all the gear that has it, has a wasted stat.

    Am I right?

  2. #2
    There is critical damage in abyss.

    If you are referring to critical defence stat being useless, that is true, since this stat seems to be completely broken.
    It reduces the overall damage you receive even at 50% by very small portion, which makes critical defence not worth getting over more morale.

    It is okey to have critical defence in your gear's base stats just to have a little bit, but no critical defence essences should be used to build your character.
    Last edited by Henna95; Jul 17 2018 at 07:07 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalfy View Post
    Hey smart peoples,

    On another thread, someone suggested that there is no critical damage in the Abyss raid.
    Is this true?

    If so, then it seems all the gear that has it, has a wasted stat.

    Am I right?
    There are no crits in AoM, just like Throne. Any critical defense beyond what you get passively is a waste there.
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Henna95 View Post
    There is critical damage in abyss.

    If you are referring to critical defence stat being useless, that is true, since this stat seems to be completely broken.
    It reduces the overall damage you receive even at 50% only by 3-5% which is not worth getting over more morale.

    It is okey thing to have critical defence in your gear's base stats just to have a little bit, but morale stacking is still the best way to go .. what a suprise! ..

    I went in to Abyss T2 solo and looked at my combat log.
    It turns out that there are critical hits.

    I then searched for information on how Crit defence reduces damage and found this in Dadis lotro guides:


    Example;

    A mob hits you with a Devastating Crit (magnitude = 200%) and you have a Critical Defence of 50%. The max damage of the mob skill was 1,000.

    Dev Crit Mag (initial) – Crit D = Dev Crit Mag (final)

    200% (initial) – 50% (Crit D) = 150% Dev Crit Mag (final)

    Raw Damage (can be further reduced) = 1,000 * 150% = 1,500


    This is how I understood Crit defence to work, and so the amount of damage reduced over the course of a fight by crit defence would be huge.

    So where do you get your figure of 3-5%?

  5. #5
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    Last time i checked all enemies had 50% critical magnitude on normal crits and 100% devastate magnitude.
    Devastates are rare.

    Guardian can reach 50% without even trying. It's actually impossible not to get 42k critical defence if you get the proper gear and you also have an extra 10% from blue traiting.
    So yeah , you do need 50% as a guardian but you'll get it without trying.

    I think other players refer to other classes , although that's not accurate either. There are more random crits in abyss than in Throne ^^
    Guardians and tanks in general get critted all the time.

    I actually haven't checked the above critical magnitude info in Mordath , but it was accurate up until Mordor launch and i don't think anything changed.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalfy View Post
    So where do you get your figure of 3-5%?
    I pulled those numbers out of a hat, but the main point was that the damage reduction critical defence gives is extreamily minimal.
    (removed this part from earlier reply, since it could cause misleading information)

    It may seem like critical defence does a lot by looking the formulas alone, but when you mix in all the raid buffs/debuffs, heals, etc.. The effect critical defence has becomes really small.

    Which mean no class needs to worry about critical defence at all, not even tanks.
    And even if you want to play save, you will max out critical defence without trying by having endgame gear like BotLike said.
    Last edited by Henna95; Jul 17 2018 at 07:16 AM.

  7. #7
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    I just got curious and logged in to test this again. Apparently Abyss is broken.

    Abyss of Mordath t1 , mordath taskmaster :

    With 50.9% critical defence :
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a critical hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.

    Then i just took the greater turcas off and tried again , same armor and mits.
    With 47.2% critical defence :
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a critical hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.

    With 43.0% critical defence:
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a critical hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a devastating hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    With 50.9% critical defence:
    The Mordath Slave-culler scored a critical hit with Cull the Weak on ##### for 1,901,666 Common damage to Morale.

    With 43.0% critical defence:
    The Mordath Slave-culler scored a critical hit with Cull the Weak on ##### for 1,928,964 Common damage to Morale.

    Around 1.5% difference... #sense

    Trash mobs never critted me on most of their skills apart from the execute mentioned above , which doesn't matter anyway since its an execute -_-
    I also got 1 devastate from the warg at some point which i wasn't able to reproduce in order to see if crit defence does anything.
    Taskmasters always critted me with devastating attack but crit defence made no difference.

    It feels good having a WAI game. -_-
    No idea what happens in bosses or other mobs , crits defo happen but perhaps crit defence doesn't work well there either ^^

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I just got curious and logged in to test this again. Apparently Abyss is broken.

    Abyss of Mordath t1 , mordath taskmaster :

    With 50.9% critical defence :
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a critical hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.

    Then i just took the greater turcas off and tried again , same armor and mits.
    With 47.2% critical defence :
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a critical hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.

    With 43.0% critical defence:
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a critical hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.
    The Mordath Taskmaster scored a devastating hit with a devastating melee attack on ##### for 19,950 Common damage to Morale.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    With 50.9% critical defence:
    The Mordath Slave-culler scored a critical hit with Cull the Weak on ##### for 1,901,666 Common damage to Morale.

    With 43.0% critical defence:
    The Mordath Slave-culler scored a critical hit with Cull the Weak on ##### for 1,928,964 Common damage to Morale.

    Around 1.5% difference... #sense

    Trash mobs never critted me on most of their skills apart from the execute mentioned above , which doesn't matter anyway since its an execute -_-
    I also got 1 devastate from the warg at some point which i wasn't able to reproduce in order to see if crit defence does anything.
    Taskmasters always critted me with devastating attack but crit defence made no difference.

    It feels good having a WAI game. -_-
    No idea what happens in bosses or other mobs , crits defo happen but perhaps crit defence doesn't work well there either ^^
    Where´s the Prob? If a Mob has a Crit Dmg Bonus like + 40% and you were having constantly in all your setups more than 40% Crit Defense, you just deny the Mob the Bonus. So it turns out that the dmg you receive is always the same. More than 40% Crit Defense will show no difference, as the Mobs Bonus is eaten up by your Crit Defense, or, if you want to put it like that: You can´t lower the bosses crit magnitude below zero. It will be "normal" crit then.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xerothain View Post
    Where´s the Prob? If a Mob has a Crit Dmg Bonus like + 40% and you were having constantly in all your setups more than 40% Crit Defense, you just deny the Mob the Bonus. So it turns out that the dmg you receive is always the same. More than 40% Crit Defense will show no difference, as the Mobs Bonus is eaten up by your Crit Defense, or, if you want to put it like that: You can´t lower the bosses crit magnitude below zero. It will be "normal" crit then.
    Nah , i've also included a devastate hit above and it was the same as the crit.
    There is no way that even devastate has lower than 40% magnitude , when it used to be 50% crit and 100% devastate.

    In addition , some skills seem to always crit while others never do , i would check the bosses too but i don't think i'll be raiding abyss again in the future ^^

    Perhaps someone that tracked the issue in the past can contribute more.

    PS. I believe there was a similar issue back when osgiliath launched. Both criticals and devastates had the exact same magnitude and they eventually fixed it.
    However , in this case , i don't see critical magnitude working either unless they changed it to a really small percentage , which would be really weird , since 50% was already low....

  10. #10
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    Critical defence is not a broken stat

    but vs p.BPE you won't need as much, about 40-50% will do. Though, I wouldn't leave it out, because for tactical it might be useful.

    105
    During the critbug in moors, I changed some of settings in my build to stabilize my active tank (tank that replenishes morale all the time), this was done by 87% crit def, which wasn't that hard to get :P
    helped me out a lot, so I think critdef is quite useful and shouldn't be left out, some amount is a must imo.


    Alltair / Zaheer

  11. #11
    Afaik, critical defense is broken in quays of harlond trollfight.
    Those trolls always crit with some of their skills and critical defense doesnt change anything about how much damage those crits do.

    so yea, with or without intention, there are ways which make critdef interact in different ways (like not at all) with crits.


    And even the base formula how critdef works is quite stupid as that itself makes critdef worthless if 50% is reached. It should just be multiplicative with crit/dev mag and would always have an impact.

    Explanation of how it should be imo:
    crit/dev magnitude is additional damage of crits/devs.
    critical defense should reduce that magnitude by being multiplied with it.
    Example: critmag +50%, devmag +100%, critical defense 50% would result in crits dealing 25% more damage than normal attacks and devs dealing 50% more.
    This would also reduce the issue with huge critical magnitudes which is an issue in class balance, pve and especially PvE.
    Classes with critmags of +250% would be reduced to +125% with 50% critdef, which again would make debuffs against critical defense even more interesting for them (and burglars and hunters have those debuffs).
    The incredibly high critmags have led to several issues both in PvE and PvP. In PvP, the main issue obviously is oneshots, in PvE its completely unreliable dps, which is worthless in parses without many crits and awesome with good crit parses. Especially in short fights - like landscape - this is annoying.
    having critdef work multiplicative would mean, that critical hits ALWAYS hit harder than normal attacks... which would make sense but isnt the case currently. plus, critdef would always reduce damage of critical and dev attacks, no matter how many critdef one has. And debuffs against critdef would get more meaningful, especially if enemies got more critdef than players can debuff. To me, it feels like enemies have really tiny amounts of critdef nowadays, and considering freeps magnitudes, thats just ridiculous.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Afaik, critical defense is broken in quays of harlond trollfight.
    Those trolls always crit with some of their skills and critical defense doesnt change anything about how much damage those crits do.
    Interesting ! Perhaps they just copied QoH troll skills , tweaked magnitude and gave them to the taskmasters.... ^^
    I guess someone needs to test boss fights in AoM with a couple different crit defence values and come back with results , in order to know whether critical magnitude works as it did before. T1 or T2 doesn't matter.

  13. #13
    Botlike, thank you for going to all that work to prove that crit defense makes little or no difference.
    There must be a very odd formula being used to calculate damage.

    I have been considering getting the 4 slot armor from the Pellenor instances but it has no crit defence.
    Swapping out some of my current armor would drop me from 61% crit defence down to perhaps 50%.
    It seems that would make no difference to the damage taken but I think I could gain about 3k morale per piece.

    I would also lose a chunk of might and for that reason, I'm not sure it's a good idea.

    What do you guys think?

    Do you see any guardians running around with the 4 slot armor?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalfy View Post
    Botlike, thank you for going to all that work to prove that crit defense makes little or no difference.
    There must be a very odd formula being used to calculate damage.

    I have been considering getting the 4 slot armor from the Pellenor instances but it has no crit defence.
    Swapping out some of my current armor would drop me from 61% crit defence down to perhaps 50%.
    It seems that would make no difference to the damage taken but I think I could gain about 3k morale per piece.

    I would also lose a chunk of might and for that reason, I'm not sure it's a good idea.

    What do you guys think?

    Do you see any guardians running around with the 4 slot armor?
    I dont see any reason why might should be better than morale for a tanking guardian... unless its a huge amount of might for a small amount of morale.
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