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Thread: Captain buglist

  1. #1
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    Captain buglist

    Hi there captains!

    I'd like to encourage ya all to post bugs in this forum thread for SSG, so they can work on resolving the issues

    short buglist from me

    - Time of need damage bonus on imbued class item seems not to be working as intended -> doesn't give the dmg bonus.
    - Time of need attack speed bonus seems to be in conflict with routing cry depending on order. For example, when Time of Need is used before routing cry, routing cry replaces the attackspeed bonus (penetrating cry from red). It'a a bit weird, but I noticed it while using blue line with Time of Need and penetrating cry from red.
    - Time of need doesn't stack with routing cry (not sure if it's intended or not)
    - Defeat Events buffs are exploitable, upon having receiving a defeat event. Example: When using Time of Need, you're able to use rallyingcry and routing cry attack speed buff at the same time. If you're quick enough, both buffs will be bestowed upon you. Rallyingcry -> Routing cry (Some players may not like this, but imo I don't think you're supposed to get 2 def event buffs from 1 def event trigger)
    - Elendil's fury doesn't always proc, see other forum thread. (also it's just useless imo cuz elendil onetick 20% redu vs hardened -15% redu is just useless, try to make something else from it SSG.)
    - Imbued legendary item with the legacy " Muster Courage Fear resist " above rank 35 (Legacy rank) creates conflict with the brother link towards the fellow, or pet. The conflict is when you basically press To arms and then switch away from the weapon, the buff immediately disappears.
    - Muster courage selfheal only applies once the animation has ended. Due the long animation, I mostly cut this one with kick, but maybe ssg can do something about it x)

    Might post more later


    brother buff bug :

    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Jul 17 2018 at 03:49 PM.

  2. #2
    I remember posting a list of bugs that I made in another thread somewhere, but I can't seem to remember where. I'll just repost it here, as many of them really do need attention. Most of the bugs I noticed are related to blue-line. I'm not sure if you want to include general issues that aren't necessarily bugs in the thread. If not, I'll remove them from my list. Just give me the word.

    • Cry of Vengeance (cappy rez) will send a person to the respawn point when used when not on solid ground/being punted by an enemy ("jump rez").
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by the Area-effect Healing legacy.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected outgoing healing.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) cannot crit.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by the Standard of Honour trait which is supposed to increase the healing potency/damage on placement.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by Relentless Optimism trait which increases AoE healing.
    • Heal-over-time components of Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, and Inspire did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal from Gallant Display did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal bonus to Inspire (Song-Brother) from Gallant Display buff only affects initial heal, not heal-over-time component. (Affects both components for power-restore.)
    • Heal from Valour (blue capstone) did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Yellow trait Steeled Resolve says it gives +2/4/6/8% max morale, but actually gives +1/2/3/4%.
    • Yellow capstone, Elendil's Fury, grants false defeat responses that do not augment Rallying/Routing Cry skills.
    • Heal from Last Stand did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Pet cooldown clockfaces do not always accurately reflect the cooldown time remaining on skills. (Also true for loremaster and spider pets.)
    • Master of War buff (redline) does not cause tactical skills to crit, but is consumed if they crit naturally.
    • Melee Skill Power Cost legacy reaches max buff at approx. rank 49/54 at -25%, then continues to decrease until it hits -20% at rank 64. Has no secondary benefit to make up for this.

  3. #3
    Just some comments to mentioned things:

    Defeat events being exploitable isnt Cappy-specific. Thats the same bug that allows hunters to use focus skills, if they dont have the right amount of focus or Minstrels using two instant bolsters after Coda. Generally, the server just doesnt follow the client fast enough, it seems, or the client has "too much to say".

    Muster Courage fear resist is quite OP. Not a bug, but worth mentioning imo. +70% fear resist chance easily leads to 100% fear resist chance with bufffood, which counters fights with fear effects too easily. Its a mechanic thats not near possible for any other debuff type and imo shouldnt for any debuff type.

    Steeled Resolve being 4% or 8% is just a matter of calculation. both can be right, just depending on if you add up additive or multiplicative with the other cappies morale buffs. sure, one of them is actually right and it can be easily checked by traiting it non-tank-traited and then tank-traited... but whatever...
    I'd prefer SSG just deciding to always stack all things multiplicative instead of sometimes multiplicative and sometimes additive...
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    I remember posting a list of bugs that I made in another thread somewhere, but I can't seem to remember where. I'll just repost it here, as many of them really do need attention. Most of the bugs I noticed are related to blue-line. I'm not sure if you want to include general issues that aren't necessarily bugs in the thread. If not, I'll remove them from my list. Just give me the word.

    • Cry of Vengeance (cappy rez) will send a person to the respawn point when used when not on solid ground/being punted by an enemy ("jump rez").
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by the Area-effect Healing legacy.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected outgoing healing.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) cannot crit.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by the Standard of Honour trait which is supposed to increase the healing potency/damage on placement.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by Relentless Optimism trait which increases AoE healing.
    • Heal-over-time components of Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, and Inspire did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal from Gallant Display did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal bonus to Inspire (Song-Brother) from Gallant Display buff only affects initial heal, not heal-over-time component. (Affects both components for power-restore.)
    • Heal from Valour (blue capstone) did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Yellow trait Steeled Resolve says it gives +2/4/6/8% max morale, but actually gives +1/2/3/4%.
    • Yellow capstone, Elendil's Fury, grants false defeat responses that do not augment Rallying/Routing Cry skills.
    • Heal from Last Stand did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Pet cooldown clockfaces do not always accurately reflect the cooldown time remaining on skills. (Also true for loremaster and spider pets.)
    • Master of War buff (redline) does not cause tactical skills to crit, but is consumed if they crit naturally.
    • Melee Skill Power Cost legacy reaches max buff at approx. rank 49/54 at -25%, then continues to decrease until it hits -20% at rank 64. Has no secondary benefit to make up for this.
    Very nice list!
    The ammount of times that jump-res has ruined raid attempts............

    I am just hoping they fix those bugs and don't change red and yellow cappy much...
    Obviously , red cappy could use a DPS boost but the mechanics are fine really , I love how it works !

    Blue cappy is another story though , but perhaps if everything scale properly , hands of healing line will be able to heal content decently.
    Comparing to siege of Mirkwood when captain used to be at his best imo , HoTs used to be a significant part of healing , and maintaining HoTs like inspire / valiant strike / rallying cry hot used to be the best way to go. I am hoping to see this back , i miss the fun AoE healing cappy ; )

    It's fair to mention that although many captain heals haven't scaled for ages , revealing mark has become way too strong.
    RM is Lotro's lifesteal and on many many games , lifesteals eventually become way too OP.
    I've seen games that drop the concept of lifesteal entirely or nerf it to the ground it at some point.
    The problem is that it's hard to balance on every level cap. You need to consider how the ratio of average morale pool / outgoing DPS changes, which is not easy.
    For anyone that tracks Lotro scaling , it's fair to say that DPS scales faster than our morale pools over the years and that's what causes the problem.

    I think it's time SSG boosts captain healing and nerfs revealing mark. A 5% reduction would be a good start as it currently breaks PVE significantly.
    In most fights , good DPS players CAN'T die anymore with just revealing.
    Level 120 will be even worse.

    Another alternative would be making revealing a capstone , drop valour entirely and give hands of healing something on 2nd line to compensate.
    Thoughts ?

  5. #5
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    Nice, here's a couple of smaller ones not yet listed.

    -Rallying cry's heal is delayed by about a second and doesn't apply until the end of the animation for high elf captains (doesn't affect man captains, where the heal applies instantly upon skill use)
    -Battle-shout sounds two different screams at once that overlap each other on high elf captains (again, doesn't affect man captains)

  6. #6

    Talking

    I just can´t understand why every one whant´s to nerf the cappy. Why reduce rm? Why "repair" Time of need double buff? Why nerf fear resist? Is there any smallest hint, that cappy therefore is OP? Is there any content ruined?
    Are you all playing creep

    There´s nothing wrong with these things, leave them be. Please concentrate on real bugs that kill the entertainment. For Example the "Jump Rezz" which is indeed existing since Moria release, maybe longer. Some of the above mentioned "bugs" are things where good cappys can distinguish themselves from casual played Twinks. Please do not again kill such things. Armor swap, min lv for armor, all these are things that killed cappy possibilities. These were ways where a cappy player could show he is firm with his class. Please do not remove more things from the Game where someone can show that he is playing his class very intense.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Just some comments to mentioned things:

    Defeat events being exploitable isnt Cappy-specific. Thats the same bug that allows hunters to use focus skills, if they dont have the right amount of focus or Minstrels using two instant bolsters after Coda. Generally, the server just doesnt follow the client fast enough, it seems, or the client has "too much to say".

    Muster Courage fear resist is quite OP. Not a bug, but worth mentioning imo. +70% fear resist chance easily leads to 100% fear resist chance with bufffood, which counters fights with fear effects too easily. Its a mechanic thats not near possible for any other debuff type and imo shouldnt for any debuff type.

    Steeled Resolve being 4% or 8% is just a matter of calculation. both can be right, just depending on if you add up additive or multiplicative with the other cappies morale buffs. sure, one of them is actually right and it can be easily checked by traiting it non-tank-traited and then tank-traited... but whatever...
    I'd prefer SSG just deciding to always stack all things multiplicative instead of sometimes multiplicative and sometimes additive...
    Muster courage fear resist itself isnt the problem it's the legacy bonus towards brother past 35 legacy rank, which causes issues during swapping with to arms.

    Once past 35, while using that weapon to activate to arms, the to arms buff does disappear upon swapping away from the weapon where you cast the buff with.

    So I wasn't speaking over fear resist in the first place xd





    dont mind the westerness, it's my swap weapon for healing and opening up readied, just wanted some cool lightning effects^^

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    I remember posting a list of bugs that I made in another thread somewhere, but I can't seem to remember where. I'll just repost it here, as many of them really do need attention. Most of the bugs I noticed are related to blue-line. I'm not sure if you want to include general issues that aren't necessarily bugs in the thread. If not, I'll remove them from my list. Just give me the word.


    • Cry of Vengeance (cappy rez) will send a person to the respawn point when used when not on solid ground/being punted by an enemy ("jump rez").
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by the Area-effect Healing legacy.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected outgoing healing.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) cannot crit.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by the Standard of Honour trait which is supposed to increase the healing potency/damage on placement.
    • Heal from Standard of Honour (blue banner) is not affected by Relentless Optimism trait which increases AoE healing.
    • Heal-over-time components of Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, and Inspire did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal from Gallant Display did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Heal bonus to Inspire (Song-Brother) from Gallant Display buff only affects initial heal, not heal-over-time component. (Affects both components for power-restore.)
    • Heal from Valour (blue capstone) did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Yellow trait Steeled Resolve says it gives +2/4/6/8% max morale, but actually gives +1/2/3/4%.
    • Yellow capstone, Elendil's Fury, grants false defeat responses that do not augment Rallying/Routing Cry skills.
    • Heal from Last Stand did not scale to reflect current morale pools.
    • Pet cooldown clockfaces do not always accurately reflect the cooldown time remaining on skills. (Also true for loremaster and spider pets.)
    • Master of War buff (redline) does not cause tactical skills to crit, but is consumed if they crit naturally.
    • Melee Skill Power Cost legacy reaches max buff at approx. rank 49/54 at -25%, then continues to decrease until it hits -20% at rank 64. Has no secondary benefit to make up for this.


    lovely list, didn't consider scaling issue to be posted and hoped SSG was alrdy aware of that, but always nice to get some more

    and yes forgot the cry of vengeance jumpbug x)
    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Jul 17 2018 at 09:16 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerothain View Post
    I just can´t understand why every one whant´s to nerf the cappy. Why reduce rm? Why "repair" Time of need double buff? Why nerf fear resist? Is there any smallest hint, that cappy therefore is OP? Is there any content ruined?
    Are you all playing creep

    There´s nothing wrong with these things, leave them be. Please concentrate on real bugs that kill the entertainment. For Example the "Jump Rezz" which is indeed existing since Moria release, maybe longer. Some of the above mentioned "bugs" are things where good cappys can distinguish themselves from casual played Twinks. Please do not again kill such things. Armor swap, min lv for armor, all these are things that killed cappy possibilities. These were ways where a cappy player could show he is firm with his class. Please do not remove more things from the Game where someone can show that he is playing his class very intense.
    The other ones I'm not too concerned with, but I do think Revealing Mark needs a nerf for the simple reason that I can heal more by going red and using Revealing Mark than if I was to go blue and use Telling Mark. When a single skill can replace a healer entirely, something is wrong with scaling. Most of the time, competent dps don't even need a healer because revealing is up.

    Take first boss of Abyss for example. The dps group rarely has a healer (on Landy that is, at least), and the dps are supposed to heal through revealing only. If that isn't enough, I know hunters who are able to heal through 2-3 spirits inducting around them. Because of this skill's scaling being broken, mechanics are getting ignored. Second boss doesn't need a healer either. Revealing Mark was not this powerful until we got imbument and essences and whatnot, and it just got worse and worse every update.

    I don't see how using one skill and then going afk and managing to heal an entire raid is something that lets a "good cappy distinguish themselves".

    I don't mean to sound combative or anything, so sorry if it comes across that way, but the Revealing Mark issue does kill the entertainment for me on Cappy. I find blue line the most enjoyable of the three on my Cappy, and yet I am not able to ever go blue where it matters because red gives more benefits, and can heal just as well with Revealing.

    Also, I don't necessarily think moving Revealing Mark down to a capstone in blue would be a good solution. In my opinion, a blue Cappy should not have to rely on a crutch to heal people. They should be able to keep a group up while using Telling Mark, (or even Noble Mark and off-tanking a mob or two). If you ask me, Revealing is only for situations where someone is out of range of heals, there are lots of stuns, or some other mechanics force the Captain to supplement their heals with something more reliable for a short time.

    Also, having a blue Cappy in a run would help balance as well a fair bit. The Cappy can heal the dps group while giving Song-Brother to an RK for example, which will help the RK match (or maybe even pass) a Hunter's dps parse. And you can still dip red for full banner and 10s Oathies while blue without missing out on all that much healing, so the only things you really lose are the Relentless Attack buff, 10s off of Oathies, and autocrits for a physical dps, while you gain giving autocrits to a tactical dps, reducing attack duration 5% further than in red, +2% tact mit, and a healer that still does everything else a Cappy is known for.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    The other ones I'm not too concerned with, but I do think Revealing Mark needs a nerf for the simple reason that I can heal more by going red and using Revealing Mark than if I was to go blue and use Telling Mark. When a single skill can replace a healer entirely, something is wrong with scaling. Most of the time, competent dps don't even need a healer because revealing is up.

    Take first boss of Abyss for example. The dps group rarely has a healer (on Landy that is, at least), and the dps are supposed to heal through revealing only. If that isn't enough, I know hunters who are able to heal through 2-3 spirits inducting around them. Because of this skill's scaling being broken, mechanics are getting ignored. Second boss doesn't need a healer either. Revealing Mark was not this powerful until we got imbument and essences and whatnot, and it just got worse and worse every update.

    I don't see how using one skill and then going afk and managing to heal an entire raid is something that lets a "good cappy distinguish themselves".

    I don't mean to sound combative or anything, so sorry if it comes across that way, but the Revealing Mark issue does kill the entertainment for me on Cappy. I find blue line the most enjoyable of the three on my Cappy, and yet I am not able to ever go blue where it matters because red gives more benefits, and can heal just as well with Revealing.

    Also, I don't necessarily think moving Revealing Mark down to a capstone in blue would be a good solution. In my opinion, a blue Cappy should not have to rely on a crutch to heal people. They should be able to keep a group up while using Telling Mark, (or even Noble Mark and off-tanking a mob or two). If you ask me, Revealing is only for situations where someone is out of range of heals, there are lots of stuns, or some other mechanics force the Captain to supplement their heals with something more reliable for a short time.

    Also, having a blue Cappy in a run would help balance as well a fair bit. The Cappy can heal the dps group while giving Song-Brother to an RK for example, which will help the RK match (or maybe even pass) a Hunter's dps parse. And you can still dip red for full banner and 10s Oathies while blue without missing out on all that much healing, so the only things you really lose are the Relentless Attack buff, 10s off of Oathies, and autocrits for a physical dps, while you gain giving autocrits to a tactical dps, reducing attack duration 5% further than in red, +2% tact mit, and a healer that still does everything else a Cappy is known for.
    You'd understand that red captains are active tanks right?

    They need to survive through their own dps, removing something like bluemark will make redcaptain collapse. Without its bluemark, it will become very unstable and it's offhealing in redline is very little, except for rallyingcry. which is like almost all heals underscaled atm.

    So no, healers are supposed to take care of the tanks and bluemark is supposed to take care of the dps and semi-support, like the captains themselves.
    That in raid, I mean.

    About what you say, I take it that the abyss raid was t1?


    Blue captain, like red captain have healing from 2 things, its their dps and offhealing
    For redline, it swaps around, their dps becomes greater, they heal more on their own with the dps, while blue gets a swap around. Blueline captain gets respectable dps with a lot of offhealing, less healing from their own dps.
    You cannot break those 2 apart imo, captains are very bad at anti cc/slows and I think this is fine.
    How you imagine a redline captain to survive mordor landscape with a 10% bluemark? When you'd realize that even with the 15% bluemark, they're alrdy gettin dropped. All honesty, this is just a big nono. It's like u strip an active tank of it's heal, making it a very poor brawler not capable of achieving anything(in terms of dps). It's DPS is low but instead we get our bluemark, which is a fair trade imo.

    The redline banner is a poor choice imo for blueline captain, it wont give the crit bonus. The oathies for 10 sec is almost nothing either, some classes need to buildup dps and for 10sec oathies its a mehh.
    Again, we're talking about bugs here, not what needs to be nerfed or not(you can debate that in another topic imo). We just state what needs to be rescaled to what it's supposed to be and the bugs. I cant consider a nerf on bluemark, blue mark has always been there, always essential and all 3 marks were accessible by the captain. Captains used to be a bit of a healer and they still are with their bluemark, I'm happy they kept it this way. Bluemark should take care of the ppl who dps and bluemark becomes only too powerful when u can survive a t2 boss with it only, which isn't the case ofcourse.
    Only 2 dps and 1 blue captain is a possible setup for t2c instances, but never 1 redline captain and a bluemark, it usually wipes and I dont think thats possible. To just rely on bluemark with a red captain and 2 dps creates a highly unstable run, once u get cc'd by a boss, it's over.

    Especially now I don't think bluemark is OP or strong, but at 105 it definitely was with the 20% mark set.

    All with all, I'm extremely against this statement, removing or nerfing bluemark is gonna affect captain greatly, especially redline. For group, I cannot say, but lets say a hunter parse 120k dps, he'll heal 18k HPS from the bluemark. This seems great and it is. Bluemark is extremely essential and everything SSG does in instances is being calculated with this. But in raid, I can see that bluemark may seem OP, but in reality it truly isnt. However, raid will become easy not because of the bluemark, but because of the minstrels that achieve 40-60k hps with doubletab and such.
    A non tabbing(exploiting, however ya wanna call it) minstrel, will achieve 20-30k hps in raid. Everything above that is mostly with exploits, not just doubletab (which cannot be rlly seen as sploit by players). Don't blame captains with bluemark when a raid becomes easy.

    So, just no, removing/nerfing bluemark is asking for more changes to the captain itself to compensate for this, touching the class toomuch is gonna ruin it imo.
    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Jul 17 2018 at 02:32 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    So I wasn't speaking over fear resist in the first place xd
    Right. You didn't and I know. And I know the bug you are talking about.
    +70% fear resist chance with 100% uptime for the whole group is still OP. Doesnt matter if you mentioned it or I brought it up.
    Arguing against permanent 100% fear resist being OP means either, that you are okay with SSG implementing more unresistable fear debuffs or that you think fear debuffs are irrelevant anyway. I'll disagree on both.

    And yep. blue mark is OP and needs a nerf. And blue cappies should get better heals instead. Healing should be an active job, not lifeleech for everyone "passively". Red cappy is a supporter. Supporters usually arent the best solo-roles. But still... if you want selfheal in redline, just trait for the yellow mark. Its not that much different in its healing potential.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    You'd understand that red captains are active tanks right?
    Red Captains are not tanks, they are dps/support.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    They need to survive through their own dps, removing something like bluemark will make redcaptain collapse. Without its bluemark, it will become very unstable and it's offhealing in redline is very little, except for rallyingcry. which is like almost all heals underscaled atm.
    No, they need to survive through some form or fashion of self-sustain. I think baseline healing should be increased slightly in all lines to accommodate a nerf to Revealing Mark. When self-sustain is needed rather than supporting a group, it is more advantageous to trait down yellow for Noble Mark anyway because of the inflated morale pools. In Mordor, especially while leveling before you get geared, Noble Mark provides far more healing than Revealing Mark does.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    So no, healers are supposed to take care of the tanks and bluemark is supposed to take care of the dps and semi-support, like the captains themselves.
    That in raid, I mean.
    Not necessarily. This is how it is working on live currently, but this certainly is not the way that it has to be. I would rather see a Captain take on a more active role in healing the group while both blue and red in a raid. Either that, or have another support/healer thrown into the dps group, like the yellow Minstrel we used to have back when running Throne. And yes, I realize yellow Mini is broken now. I'm just giving an example of what I think is more appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    About what you say, I take it that the abyss raid was t1?
    No. In t2 Abyss, a solid Hunter is more than capable of healing themselves through 2-3 spirits using Revealing Mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    Blue captain, like red captain have healing from 2 things, its their dps and offhealing
    For redline, it swaps around, their dps becomes greater, they heal more on their own with the dps, while blue gets a swap around. Blueline captain gets respectable dps with a lot of offhealing, less healing from their own dps.
    You cannot break those 2 apart imo, captains are very bad at anti cc/slows and I think this is fine.
    And what I'm suggesting is reducing the healing through damage returns and increasing healing from actual heal skills across the board. This way, Captains have stronger heals in blue for group content, and in red heals are slightly stronger as well as the damage return being moved from traiting Revealing Mark to traiting Noble Mark instead. If this happens, Cappy self-healing in red will actually be stronger than they are on live because of self-heals and Noble Mark both being stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    How you imagine a redline captain to survive mordor landscape with a 10% bluemark? When you'd realize that even with the 15% bluemark, they're alrdy gettin dropped. All honesty, this is just a big nono. It's like u strip an active tank of it's heal, making it a very poor brawler not capable of achieving anything(in terms of dps). It's DPS is low but instead we get our bluemark, which is a fair trade imo.
    Easy, by not traiting Revealing Mark and instead traiting Noble Mark. I already explained this in my above point. It's what I did to get by, and it worked beautifully. While leveling, it even worked out to be more HPS for me than I got through Revealing. Once again, red Cappy is not a tank, it is a dps/support, and it is capable of respectable damage while having good self-sustain as well. You are simply overreacting about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    The redline banner is a poor choice imo for blueline captain, it wont give the crit bonus. The oathies for 10 sec is almost nothing either, some classes need to buildup dps and for 10sec oathies its a mehh.
    The red banner won't give the crit bonus, but it is still a nice buff (and much better than the blue banner), and the 10s oathies is nothing to scoff at. The potency is the same, the duration is the only difference. It is useful to help push through dps phases on boss fights. And about some classes needing to build up their dps, you simply don't use it until they are built up; it's not that difficult of a concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    Again, we're talking about bugs here, not what needs to be nerfed or not(you can debate that in another topic imo). We just state what needs to be rescaled to what it's supposed to be and the bugs. I cant consider a nerf on bluemark, blue mark has always been there, always essential and all 3 marks were accessible by the captain. Captains used to be a bit of a healer and they still are with their bluemark, I'm happy they kept it this way. Bluemark should take care of the ppl who dps and bluemark becomes only too powerful when u can survive a t2 boss with it only, which isn't the case ofcourse.
    You said scaling issues were welcome discussion, and this is one of the most glaringly obvious scaling issues affecting Captain gameplay in my opinion, so I brought it up. Also I'm not suggesting that blue mark be removed from off-spec Cappies. It should stay at tier 2 in the trait tree. It should simply be reduced to a ~5% damage return instead of 15%. It has been 15% since I've been playing, and that was reasonable then because damage output compared to max morale was different back then. Now, we have damage scaling over multiple level caps at a greater rate than max morale has, which caused Revealing Mark to become too overpowered. I'm simply suggesting scaling the magnitude back so that the 15% return actually restores an amount similar to what it did a few years ago in relation to max morale.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    Only 2 dps and 1 blue captain is a possible setup for t2c instances, but never 1 redline captain and a bluemark, it usually wipes and I dont think thats possible. To just rely on bluemark with a red captain and 2 dps creates a highly unstable run, once u get cc'd by a boss, it's over.
    Not true. The Captain can also go yellow to tank if you care about having a stable run. And yes, a red Captain has less group heals than a blue Captain, that is true. I fail to see the issue with that though. Are you implying that a Cappy traited red should do more healing than a Cappy traited blue?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    Especially now I don't think bluemark is OP or strong, but at 105 it definitely was with the 20% mark set.
    I agree. Revealing Mark was too overpowered at 105 with the 20% mark set. It was also too overpowered at 105 without the 20% mark set.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    All with all, I'm extremely against this statement, removing or nerfing bluemark is gonna affect captain greatly, especially redline. For group, I cannot say, but lets say a hunter parse 120k dps, he'll heal 18k HPS from the bluemark. This seems great and it is. Bluemark is extremely essential and everything SSG does in instances is being calculated with this. But in raid, I can see that bluemark may seem OP, but in reality it truly isnt.
    You can disagree with me, that is fine. It doesn't change the fact that having Revealing Mark at its current magnitude is gamebreaking for blue Cappy. As long as Revealing is as strong as it is, a buff to blue Cappy can't really be justified. And if that is true, the line has no real purpose other than as an off-spec to pick up the two-target rez and Revealing Mark. I highly doubt that this is intended design. Also, regarding Revealing Mark being essential for current group content, that is just not true; what is essential is the healing it provides. If we follow your math, a Hunter parsing 120k dps will heal 18k hps when revealing mark is at 15%. Why not reduce Revealing Mark to 5%, which would give that same Hunter 6k hps from Revealing Mark, then move the remaining 12k hps that is missing over to the Cappy himself? That is all I'm suggesting. The hps will be the same for the dps if a Cappy is blue. If the Cappy is red, then the healing will probably be about half of what it would be in blue, so that would mean the following:

    Total HPS From (5%) Revealing Mark From Blue Captain From Red Captain
    18k 6k 12k 6k

    This is what I am proposing.

    Keep in mind, this is only analyzing the healing that the hypothetical Hunter receives from Revealing Mark currently on live. This is ignoring the current group healing that a Cappy is currently putting out as a baseline. If you ask me, I think in red, the Cappy should be providing an additional 2-3k in addition to what's in the table and a blue Cappy should be putting out an additional 8-10k.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    However, raid will become easy not because of the bluemark, but because of the minstrels that achieve 40-60k hps with doubletab and such.
    A non tabbing(exploiting, however ya wanna call it) minstrel, will achieve 20-30k hps in raid. Everything above that is mostly with exploits, not just doubletab (which cannot be rlly seen as sploit by players). Don't blame captains with bluemark when a raid becomes easy.
    That is a discussion for another area of the forums if you ask me. I fail to see what Minstel heals have to do with Cappy, unless you are using it as a baseline to suggest where Cappy heals should fall when all is said and done (which you aren't). Also, why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? We can't ask for both blue Captain and blue Mini to be fixed? Do we really have to choose one or the other? Do you really have so little faith in the developers that they can't fix both?

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    So, just no, removing/nerfing bluemark is asking for more changes to the captain itself to compensate for this, touching the class toomuch is gonna ruin it imo.
    Yes, removing/nerfing Revealing Mark is asking for more changes to the Captain class itself, and I am asking for even more changes to compensate for the nerf. Would you rather they nerf Revealing without buffing our active heals, or would you rather they leave blue line to fall behind the scaling like they have been doing basically since trait trees were introduced? Those are the only three options that I really see.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Steeled Resolve being 4% or 8% is just a matter of calculation. both can be right, just depending on if you add up additive or multiplicative with the other cappies morale buffs. sure, one of them is actually right and it can be easily checked by traiting it non-tank-traited and then tank-traited... but whatever...
    I'd prefer SSG just deciding to always stack all things multiplicative instead of sometimes multiplicative and sometimes additive...
    This textual error was introduced when Heartening Prank (https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Heartening_Prank) was increased by 2, going from 1-5% to 2-10%.

    Morale percentages are always multiplicative. Likewise power and armour value if I remember correctly.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Red Captains are not tanks, they are dps/support.
    Red captains ain't just DPS and support, they have their own way of surviving and thats with an active tank. Do you really think the outgoing and reductions are just there for the showoff?

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    No, they need to survive through some form or fashion of self-sustain. I think baseline healing should be increased slightly in all lines to accommodate a nerf to Revealing Mark. When self-sustain is needed rather than supporting a group, it is more advantageous to trait down yellow for Noble Mark anyway because of the inflated morale pools. In Mordor, especially while leveling before you get geared, Noble Mark provides far more healing than Revealing Mark does.

    *claps* thats why I say active tank, maybe we don't understand eachother, in short:

    Active tank

    • use active heal to replenish tank/pool
    • focus on resistance(can be all sorts of defense) over raw hp
      • bias towards resistance makes healing more effective


    Why active?

    • In PvE, you get a lot of total damage, but applied more slowly (depending whether ur bursthealing or healing in small portions through your pool)
    • Can also work in small PvMP engagements


    Gear

    • For raid, capping light to 220 and fill the rest with pelennor pieces/osgilliath.
    • LI swaps, all 3 rdy to open readied state, 1 buffer weapon, 2 stateswap with melee healing, 3 being a pure damage weapon.
    • Armour capping, remember, resistance(reductions in all sorts, e.g mitigation, critdef, pBPE etc) over raw hp.

    Though, revmark can be considered a passive heal, so that would make up a captain from 2 types of heal.

    Though, I believe they're very capable of solotanking on certain world bosses/RTs, used to be able to solotank velnas on lvl 100 with redline. Maybe tank means catching aggro to you, but not to me x)

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Not necessarily. This is how it is working on live currently, but this certainly is not the way that it has to be. I would rather see a Captain take on a more active role in healing the group while both blue and red in a raid. Either that, or have another support/healer thrown into the dps group, like the yellow Minstrel we used to have back when running Throne. And yes, I realize yellow Mini is broken now. I'm just giving an example of what I think is more appropriate.
    That's what I am talking about, this is currently in live. But this shouldn't mean revmark needs to be nerfed x)

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    No. In t2 Abyss, a solid Hunter is more than capable of healing themselves through 2-3 spirits using Revealing Mark.
    Finding capable hunters is hard nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    And what I'm suggesting is reducing the healing through damage returns and increasing healing from actual heal skills across the board. This way, Captains have stronger heals in blue for group content, and in red heals are slightly stronger as well as the damage return being moved from traiting Revealing Mark to traiting Noble Mark instead. If this happens, Cappy self-healing in red will actually be stronger than they are on live because of self-heals and Noble Mark both being stronger.
    No, this asks red cappy to go buffertank,

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Easy, by not traiting Revealing Mark and instead traiting Noble Mark. I already explained this in my above point. It's what I did to get by, and it worked beautifully. While leveling, it even worked out to be more HPS for me than I got through Revealing. Once again, red Cappy is not a tank, it is a dps/support, and it is capable of respectable damage while having good self-sustain as well. You are simply overreacting about this.
    Yes, but you forgot that you did lose dps, which wouldn't be the case if you run the builds like I do. Active tank, that is.



    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    The red banner won't give the crit bonus, but it is still a nice buff (and much better than the blue banner), and the 10s oathies is nothing to scoff at. The potency is the same, the duration is the only difference. It is useful to help push through dps phases on boss fights. And about some classes needing to build up their dps, you simply don't use it until they are built up; it's not that difficult of a concept.
    Yes, considered that certain classes ain't sustainable DPS and may fluctuate in their DPS.



    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    You said scaling issues were welcome discussion, and this is one of the most glaringly obvious scaling issues affecting Captain gameplay in my opinion, so I brought it up. Also I'm not suggesting that blue mark be removed from off-spec Cappies. It should stay at tier 2 in the trait tree. It should simply be reduced to a ~5% damage return instead of 15%. It has been 15% since I've been playing, and that was reasonable then because damage output compared to max morale was different back then. Now, we have damage scaling over multiple level caps at a greater rate than max morale has, which caused Revealing Mark to become too overpowered. I'm simply suggesting scaling the magnitude back so that the 15% return actually restores an amount similar to what it did a few years ago in relation to max morale.
    Which implies that SSG needs to fix the issue on scaling, not rev mark, maybe lowering the DPS next update in compare to pools? This can be : holding dps on current line and only increasing total raw hp, which causes rev mark to scale again.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Not true. The Captain can also go yellow to tank if you care about having a stable run. And yes, a red Captain has less group heals than a blue Captain, that is true. I fail to see the issue with that though. Are you implying that a Cappy traited red should do more healing than a Cappy traited blue?
    Was talking about red and blue here, I left yellow out for obvious reasons. No, but red captain should be capable of some healing, revmark was supposed to be a small portion of what a blue captain could heal. On a scale of a blue captain, red captain would do about (3-5)/10th of the healing from a blue cpt.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    I agree. Revealing Mark was too overpowered at 105 with the 20% mark set. It was also too overpowered at 105 without the 20% mark set.
    Can't agree with the 15% version.



    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    You can disagree with me, that is fine. It doesn't change the fact that having Revealing Mark at its current magnitude is gamebreaking for blue Cappy. As long as Revealing is as strong as it is, a buff to blue Cappy can't really be justified. And if that is true, the line has no real purpose other than as an off-spec to pick up the two-target rez and Revealing Mark. I highly doubt that this is intended design. Also, regarding Revealing Mark being essential for current group content, that is just not true; what is essential is the healing it provides. If we follow your math, a Hunter parsing 120k dps will heal 18k hps when revealing mark is at 15%. Why not reduce Revealing Mark to 5%, which would give that same Hunter 6k hps from Revealing Mark, then move the remaining 12k hps that is missing over to the Cappy himself? That is all I'm suggesting. The hps will be the same for the dps if a Cappy is blue. If the Cappy is red, then the healing will probably be about half of what it would be in blue, so that would mean the following:

    Total HPS From (5%) Revealing Mark From Blue Captain From Red Captain
    18k 6k 12k 6k

    This is what I am proposing.

    Keep in mind, this is only analyzing the healing that the hypothetical Hunter receives from Revealing Mark currently on live. This is ignoring the current group healing that a Cappy is currently putting out as a baseline. If you ask me, I think in red, the Cappy should be providing an additional 2-3k in addition to what's in the table and a blue Cappy should be putting out an additional 8-10k.
    Revmark should make half or a quarter for blue cpt total healing imo. Lets say 20k hps and 10khps comes from the blue cpt, then red cpt will have the other 10k hps, but not the other percentage, that's left to the blue captain. Though, a red can indirectly increase the healing magnitude of revealing mark for a certain amount of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    That is a discussion for another area of the forums if you ask me. I fail to see what Minstel heals have to do with Cappy, unless you are using it as a baseline to suggest where Cappy heals should fall when all is said and done (which you aren't). Also, why do the two have to be mutually exclusive? We can't ask for both blue Captain and blue Mini to be fixed? Do we really have to choose one or the other? Do you really have so little faith in the developers that they can't fix both?
    I assume they just rescale the heals and dont mess up the captain marks, don't touch toomuch.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    Yes, removing/nerfing Revealing Mark is asking for more changes to the Captain class itself, and I am asking for even more changes to compensate for the nerf. Would you rather they nerf Revealing without buffing our active heals, or would you rather they leave blue line to fall behind the scaling like they have been doing basically since trait trees were introduced? Those are the only three options that I really see.
    If they're capable of scaling the active heals on redline, I'd be happy. I highly refuse to go with a yellow mark, it creates instability and at cost, you'll lose dps cuz u need to increase raw HP for that mark.

    Active healing and passive healing from rev mark was a perfect setup, puzzle pieces would fall together. You only needed to increase your damage and defences, leaving raw HP out. This way you did increase dps and increase total passive healing from the rev mark. This was hand in hand and this should be maintained imo. Maybe lower the rev mark morale return towards group and keep it the same for the captain itself.

    example : 15% return to cappy
    5-10% return for fellowship.



    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Right. You didn't and I know. And I know the bug you are talking about.
    +70% fear resist chance with 100% uptime for the whole group is still OP. Doesnt matter if you mentioned it or I brought it up.
    Arguing against permanent 100% fear resist being OP means either, that you are okay with SSG implementing more unresistable fear debuffs or that you think fear debuffs are irrelevant anyway. I'll disagree on both.

    And yep. blue mark is OP and needs a nerf. And blue cappies should get better heals instead. Healing should be an active job, not lifeleech for everyone "passively". Red cappy is a supporter. Supporters usually arent the best solo-roles. But still... if you want selfheal in redline, just trait for the yellow mark. Its not that much different in its healing potential.

    Kinda agree with Oelle except for the yellow mark suggestion, like I explained earlier. Just thinking the half passive/active tank should be maintained x)
    Though, yellow mark is considered passive aswell, but less efficient imo
    Will need to make a separate post later regarding tanking on its own
    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Jul 18 2018 at 09:53 AM.

  14. #14
    First, and foremost, the issue with Revealing Mark is that it scales linearly with the amount of people hitting the target, and there is no limit to it. This is something that greatly influences the potency of the skill. For this reason alone, it ought to be nerfed to the point where it's only a very marginal heal, or reworked. There is no justification for an ability being this potent. It should at least have diminishing returns. It's fine as a tool for a solo captain, or even a duo with another player, but things get out of hand as the group grows larger and larger. This shouldn't be possible.

    Either keep the skill as it is, but make it apply to the captain only (like Noble Mark)
    or
    Nerf the skill to the point where it can't provide significant healing for a whole raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    Red captains ain't just DPS and support, they have their own way of surviving and thats with an active tank. Do you really think the outgoing and reductions are just there for the showoff?
    With damage reductions and outgoing healing buffs, Rallying Cry and Inspire should be enough. At no point does it logically follow that Revealing Mark needs to be a part of this equation. In fact, Revealing Mark doesn't have any interactions with the damage reductions/outgoing healing buffs.
    That said red captains definitely are DPS/support. That's what they're supposed to be. It's in the description.


    *claps* thats why I say active tank, maybe we don't understand eachother, in short:

    Active tank

    • use active heal to replenish tank/pool
    • focus on resistance(can be all sorts of defense) over raw hp
      • bias towards resistance makes healing more effective
    What would a "passive heal" be? The closest thing I can think of, would be healing while DPS'ing, which sounds awfully similar to Revealing Mark. It's the antithesis of what you're trying to describe here.

    Though, revmark can be considered a passive heal, so that would make up a captain from 2 types of heal.
    ... as you yourself admit. So why don't you simply agree with us that Revealing Mark needs to be nerfed, so that other skills can get buffed, to compensate? It's just that simple.

    Though, I believe they're very capable of solotanking on certain world bosses/RTs, used to be able to solotank velnas on lvl 100 with redline. Maybe tank means catching aggro to you, but not to me x)
    The colloquial definition of "tanking" in a game is, in fact, holding aggro while being fairly sturdy, as a character. Using a different definition isn't helpful. Red captains aren't tanks, and shouldn't be. They need some way to sustain themselves, which is easily done through skills such as Rallying Cry and Inspire. If captains need more self healing, buff these skills. Revealing Mark shouldn't be a part of this, it's a crutch, and it's part of blue line, not red line.

    Finding capable hunters is hard nowadays.
    Doesn't mean Revealing Mark isn't overpowered.

    Which implies that SSG needs to fix the issue on scaling, not rev mark, maybe lowering the DPS next update in compare to pools? This can be : holding dps on current line and only increasing total raw hp, which causes rev mark to scale again.
    "Fixing the issue on scaling" and "nerfing Revealing Mark" have identical effects; the passive healing that you're so opposed to is reduced. Why do you have to disagree with a nerf to Revealing Mark? What do you think is more likely, that SSG would nerf one ability (Revealing Mark), or address all the flaws in imbued LIs, item scaling, leveling scaling, etc.?

    Was talking about red and blue here, I left yellow out for obvious reasons. No, but red captain should be capable of some healing, revmark was supposed to be a small portion of what a blue captain could heal. On a scale of a blue captain, red captain would do about (3-5)/10th of the healing from a blue cpt.
    Yes, red captain should be capable of some healing. Inspire, Rallying Cry, Words of Courage, pet heal. Again, buff those skills have captains lack healing. There is no need for Revealing Mark. 30-50% of a blue captain? Excuse me? Red captains provide the most support of any class in the game in terms of DPS, and you think they should do 30-50% the healing that an actual healing spec does, on top of that? What is your justification for such an assertion? It makes no sense. Especially if you want captains to have any DPS of their own. If they are able to provide things like:
    - Telling Mark
    - Oathbreakers
    - Banner of War
    - Routing Cry attack speed
    - Tactic: Relentless Assault

    whilst also having 30-50% the healing of a healing spec, it should literally not do any DPS of itself, otherwise it would be far too strong.

    Revmark should make half or a quarter for blue cpt total healing imo. Lets say 20k hps and 10khps comes from the blue cpt, then red cpt will have the other 10k hps, but not the other percentage, that's left to the blue captain. Though, a red can indirectly increase the healing magnitude of revealing mark for a certain amount of time.
    25-50% of a captain's healing should be from Revealing Mark, in your opinion. Ok, allow me to disagree. I think it should be 5-10% at most, preferably less (I wish the skill was just removed/reworked into something else). I think it's incredibly poor design when the most substantial portion of a character's healing output is produced by pressing one button for every target swap. As you said, "passive healing". Healers should be active, playing the game. Not sitting back, letting one ability do the work for them. Not only is this poor design, is also doesn't allow exceptional players to separate themselves from mediocre ones, because such a large portion comes from just one simple thing. It's boring and unrewarding. Nerf it to the ground.

    I assume they just rescale the heals and dont mess up the captain marks, don't touch toomuch.
    But if they scale the heals properly, they should touch Revealing Mark.

    If they're capable of scaling the active heals on redline, I'd be happy. I highly refuse to go with a yellow mark, it creates instability and at cost, you'll lose dps cuz u need to increase raw HP for that mark.
    You shouldn't have to go with either Revealing or Noble Mark. They're not part of red line. Red line should be able to sustain itself with abilities that are provided in red line. Inspire, Rallying Cry, pet heal (I guess Fighting Withdrawal counts for the parry buff). Also, stop calling them "active heals". You're just confusing people with your personally invented terminology.

    Active healing and passive healing from rev mark was a perfect setup, puzzle pieces would fall together. You only needed to increase your damage and defences, leaving raw HP out. This way you did increase dps and increase total passive healing from the rev mark. This was hand in hand and this should be maintained imo. Maybe lower the rev mark morale return towards group and keep it the same for the captain itself.

    example : 15% return to cappy
    5-10% return for fellowship.
    There is a much simpler solution at hand: fix the way heals scale with mastery, buff Inspire/Rallying Cry, nerf Revealing Mark. This still encourages the "active tank" that you seem to insist on keeping, while removing the crutch of Revealing Mark.

    Will need to make a separate post later regarding tanking on its own
    Far be it from me to stop you, just keep in mind that what you're calling "tanking" isn't actually what people mean by "tanking".
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  15. #15
    If what you call is active tanking, then every class/role in lotro is an active tank... everyone has selfheals and other defensive abilities...
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  16. #16
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    Introduction to Tanking:

    Tanking = absorbing damage = staying alive

    For this, aggravation will be left out.

    Key concepts:

    • hit points
    • resistances
      -> effective hit points




    EHP = hit points * defence(ressistance) (e.g mitigation, reductions etc)

    • Increase tank by adding raw HP
    • Increate tank by adding defence(ressistance)
    • Heal


    defence(ressistance) makes each raw HP worth more.

    Types of tank

    Now there's more then just this, but I'll list the major ones, though, most go buffer tanking with small passive heals.
    Though, most classes have some form of active, or passive healing in their DPS form, as for tankline.

    buffer tank, active tank, passive tank

    • buffer tank = pure damage absorption - PvE/PvP
    • active tank = spend power to directly replenish tank/pool - PvE, solo PvP
    • passive tank = tank using passive skill/trait to replenish - PvE, solo PvP


    Buffer tank

    • used in large-scale and small-scale PvE/PvP
    • maximise EHP via combination of raw HP and resistances


    Why buffer?

    • In PvP, tank usually matters because you are primary
    • self-heal is too slow, use buffer to survive longer
    • heal remotely e.g mini, beorn



    Active tank

    • use active heal to replenish tank/pool
    • focus on resistance(can be all sorts of defense) over raw hp
      • bias towards resistance makes healing more effective



    Why active?

    • In PvE, you get a lot of total damage, but applied more slowly (depending whether ur bursthealing or healing in small portions through your pool)
    • Can also work in small PvMP engagements


    Passive tank

    • primarily PvE
    • maximize natural pool replenishment (though passive traits, or skills can be made stronger by changing the build)


    Why Passive?

    • can mount very effective tank
    • effort-free (no power drain, etc)
    • drawback: mostly asks the build(gear) to be changed towards the passive tank trait, or skill, but mostly pays off


    As captain, heavy active tank use can sometimes bring power issues with itself, even when running inspire. This mostly happens in redline, but this is rarely the case and mostly happens in PvP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    If what you call is active tanking, then every class/role in lotro is an active tank... everyone has selfheals and other defensive abilities...


    sure thing, but I just enjoy the bluemark more for its efficiency, together with some heal from rallyingcry as backup.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    If what you call is active tanking, then every class/role in lotro is an active tank... everyone has selfheals and other defensive abilities...
    I think what he means is this:

    Red captains can currently opt to take Revealing Mark and go down in blue line. Doing so creates the possibility to make a build where your survivability comes from your mitigations, damage reductions and damage dealt (because of Revealing Mark). As such, your survivability is proportional to your DPS done. This is different from other classes, because it is dynamic.

    However, that is merely personal preference, and a Noble Mark/yellow build is just as valid. Arguing that Revealing Mark should be kept the way it is, out of personal preference, isn't really convincing.

    Moreover, it isn't helpful that he's just obfuscating the main point by trying to describe what he actually means. It's really simple. I'm not sure why he tries to make it so complicated.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    I think what he means is this:

    Red captains can currently opt to take Revealing Mark and go down in blue line. Doing so creates the possibility to make a build where your survivability comes from your mitigations, damage reductions and damage dealt (because of Revealing Mark). As such, your survivability is proportional to your DPS done. This is different from other classes, because it is dynamic.

    However, that is merely personal preference, and a Noble Mark/yellow build is just as valid. Arguing that Revealing Mark should be kept the way it is, out of personal preference, isn't really convincing.

    Moreover, it isn't helpful that he's just obfuscating the main point by trying to describe what he actually means. It's really simple. I'm not sure why he tries to make it so complicated.
    because I sometimes think too complicated about things ^^

    but thanks gili :P

    and by tanking, I mean surviving. Yes, I use different terms.
    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Jul 18 2018 at 11:11 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    and by tanking, I mean surviving. Yes, I use different terms.
    So use the term "surviving", not "tanking". Very simple. People know what you mean when you refer to "the survivability of a class". There is no point in being vague about these things. Say what you mean.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    So use the term "surviving", not "tanking". Very simple. People know what you mean when you refer to "the survivability of a class". There is no point in being vague about these things. Say what you mean.
    I mostly use my own terms, this can become vague, yes.

    My apologies for being a bit "vague" sometimes.

    though, bluemark isn't OP imo, the insane dps is what makes it OP.
    With every level raise, it get's worse.
    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Jul 18 2018 at 11:49 AM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    though, bluemark isn't OP imo, the insane dps is what makes it OP.
    With every level raise, it get's worse.
    viable opinion... so your counter suggestion to nerfing RM is nerfing everyones DPS (relative to morale pools) back to Moria levels?
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    I mostly use my own terms, this can become vague, yes.

    My apologies for being a bit "vague" sometimes.

    though, bluemark isn't OP imo, the insane dps is what makes it OP.
    With every level raise, it get's worse.
    If you actually want to engage in discussion and convey a point, then don't use your own terms. Words have a set meaning. If I call a banana a gun and say "I think I will just eat a gun for breakfast", then that drastically will change the meaning of what I am trying to say, regardless of what I meant to say. I can appreciate that some people are not native English speakers, and judging by your grammar I'm assuming you aren't (and I promise you that you speak English better than I do any other language), but that courtesy can only be extended for so long when you are purposely obfuscating the meaning of what you are saying only so you can backpedal afterwards saying "Well no, I really meant this!" If you want to participate in a discussion with other people, you need to speak in terms that are accepted by those you are conversing with.


    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    Revmark should make half or a quarter for blue cpt total healing imo. Lets say 20k hps and 10khps comes from the blue cpt, then red cpt will have the other 10k hps, but not the other percentage, that's left to the blue captain. Though, a red can indirectly increase the healing magnitude of revealing mark for a certain amount of time.
    You honestly think that a red Cappy should do half the total healing of a blue Cappy? Even considering all the support elements that a red Cappy brings to the table in a group? What? Maybe half the total current healing that a blue Cappy has currently on live, maybe, but I would say that is even too much for red line. After blue healing finally gets scaled properly though, there is no way that that would be balanced. Revealing Mark needs to be scaled down to be maybe 10-20% of a blue Cappy's total HPS if you ask me, and then have a red Cappy be able to heal for the same HPS as Revealing Mark can then provide for the group if he is focusing on healing in his rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    Which implies that SSG needs to fix the issue on scaling, not rev mark, maybe lowering the DPS next update in compare to pools? This can be : holding dps on current line and only increasing total raw hp, which causes rev mark to scale again.
    The issue on scaling includes Revealing mark; the two aren't mutually exclusive. And when working at fixing the issue, what is more feasible? Scaling down the heal return from a single skill or revamping the dps of all 10 classes in every dps trait line? If you don't believe that the former is much easier to accomplish, then I would say this discussion is probably over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    viable opinion... so your counter suggestion to nerfing RM is nerfing everyones DPS (relative to morale pools) back to Moria levels?
    Personally, I think that would be the best option myself as the best way to fix many scaling issues in both PVE and PVP, but realistically, which would be easier for SSG to accomplish?
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Jul 18 2018 at 12:55 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMcStacky View Post
    If you actually want to engage in discussion and convey a point, then don't use your own terms. Words have a set meaning. If I call a banana a gun and say "I think I will just eat a gun for breakfast", then that drastically will change the meaning of what I am trying to say, regardless of what I meant to say. I can appreciate that some people are not native English speakers, and judging by your grammar I'm assuming you aren't, but that courtesy can only be extended for so long when you are purposely obfuscating the meaning of what you are saying only so you can backpedal afterwards saying "Well no, I really meant this!" If you want to participate in a discussion with other people, you need to speak in terms that are accepted by those you are conversing with.




    You honestly think that a red Cappy should do half the total healing of a blue Cappy? Even considering all the support elements that a red Cappy brings to the table in a group? What? Maybe half the total current healing that a blue Cappy has currently on live, maybe, but I would say that is even too much for red line. After blue healing finally gets scaled properly though, there is no way that that would be balanced. Revealing Mark needs to be scaled down to be maybe 10-20% of a blue Cappy's total HPS if you ask me, and then have a red Cappy be able to heal for the same HPS as Revealing Mark can then provide for the group if he is focusing on healing in his rotation.



    The issue on scaling includes Revealing mark; the two aren't mutually exclusive. And when working at fixing the issue, what is more feasible? Scaling down the heal return from a single skill or revamping the dps of all 10 classes in every dps trait line? If you don't believe that the former is much easier to accomplish, then I would say this discussion is probably over.



    Personally, I think that would be the best option myself as the best way to fix many scaling issues in both PVE and PVP, but realistically, which would be easier for SSG to accomplish?
    nah bro, I use my own terms, I suppose you could understand me, if not, then it cant be helped x)

    ez way out is nerfing revealing mark, but maintain it on 15% for the captain himself. No need to bring major changes like more healing skills, or attachments to skill

    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    viable opinion... so your counter suggestion to nerfing RM is nerfing everyones DPS (relative to morale pools) back to Moria levels?
    thats your own conclusion m8

    last comment is gonna be for both of you

    altho, oelle made up his own conclusion from my words, however, I just stated the current problem.

    My opinion is nerfing rev mark to 5-10%, but keeping the possibility of using it on 15% for the captain, so only the captain does receive the 15% bonus. Bit like noble, but then with a group attachment of 5-10%.

    bluemark isn't OP for the captain, it's OP for the group, so just nerf it that way imo. Captain itself shouldn't be nerfed.

    a 18k hps from just bluemark seems OP and it is imo, but it shouldn't go at cost of the captain, so it's just this, or they should give more selfheals to red captain.
    Last edited by WhiteGoliath; Jul 18 2018 at 01:26 PM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    though, bluemark isn't OP imo, the insane dps is what makes it OP..
    This is pure self contradiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteGoliath View Post
    nah bro, I use my own terms, I suppose you could understand me, if not, then it cant be helped x)
    Then don't be surprised if people ridicule you.

    My opinion is nerfing rev mark to 5-10%, but keeping the possibility of using it on 15% for the captain, so only the captain does receive the 15% bonus. Bit like noble, but then with a group attachment of 5-10%.
    Why, when there is the possibility of simply nerfing Revealing Mark across the board and scaling up other heals (RC, Inspire) to compensate? It's a much more straightforward solution, and much more feasible (that is, realistic).

    bluemark isn't OP for the captain, it's OP for the group, so just nerf it that way imo. Captain itself shouldn't be nerfed.
    Exactly. And this is the crux of the problem between us. Captains don't have to be nerfed. Other heals can be buffed to compensate for the Revealing Mark nerf. But the fact is that Revealing Mark needs a nerf. The simplest solution is the one that I just mentioned.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    This is pure self contradiction.



    Then don't be surprised if people ridicule you.



    Why, when there is the possibility of simply nerfing Revealing Mark across the board and scaling up other heals (RC, Inspire) to compensate? It's a much more straightforward solution, and much more feasible (that is, realistic).



    Exactly. And this is the crux of the problem between us. Captains don't have to be nerfed. Other heals can be buffed to compensate for the Revealing Mark nerf. But the fact is that Revealing Mark needs a nerf. The simplest solution is the one that I just mentioned.
    how about you stop insulting

    boosting up heals to compensate is one way, but there's more solutions.

    nah it isn't the problem, it's just another way that works aswell. Not my problem that you can't agree, we both know we won't get rid of our opinions, this is also the reason I refuse to answer on your reactions. Because of your insults and you taking discussions to personal attacks.

    I don't think your idea is bad, but I try to come up with more solutions.

    So there's 2 viable options imo

    either bring in active healing for red captain, or keep in the passive healing from rev mark.

    and there was no contradiction at all, because I stated 2 different things

    15% blue mark for the group/raid is OP.
    15% bluemark for a captain himself isn't, because his DPS isn't that significant atm. This only becomes a problem if they give the red captain toomuch DPS.

 

 
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