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  1. #1

    The Test of Thrang

    Warden self heals supposedly compensate for the fact that wardens take
    more damage than a Guard when tanking.

    Try tanking Thrang on a Guard, then try with a Warden (i have both).
    Watch as your Warden self heals don't measure up.

    Then ask yourself if the Warden heals are properly scaled for lv115 content?

    Also, click one button to recover some morale on the Guard, then on the Warden
    watch as your slow 3-5 button gambits barely accomplish anything in time.

    Then ask yourself - why are gambits so sluggish?

    You may survive it with a much better healer than the Guard needed, but that just
    means any rational group will prefer the Guard.

    Have invested a lot of time in this class - still disappointed tanking non-trivial level cap content.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    Warden self heals supposedly compensate for the fact that wardens take more damage than a Guard when tanking.
    This used to be true but they've literally not scaled at all in 15 levels, in fact relative to morale pool, heals have actually gone down by about 75% since 100 cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    Then ask yourself if the Warden heals are properly scaled for lv115 content?
    Not in the slightest, 100 maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    Also, click one button to recover some morale on the Guard, then on the Warden
    watch as your slow 3-5 button gambits barely accomplish anything in time.
    Never Surrender being over double the cooldown of Warriors Fortitude and healing half as much with no other buffs is a bit of a kick in the teeth to begin with, let alone a complete lack of literally any other survival skills and the nerf to Defiant Challenge...

    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    Then ask yourself - why are gambits so sluggish?
    Broken with the last round of revamps, horrendous, I've no idea why the attack durations of masteries were affected at all but with a little bit of lag and a few AD debuffs it can actually be multiple seconds between skill plays which I find insane given the 3-10 skill plays needed per gambit.
    #15skills

  3. #3
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    I am trying to imagine Wardens with a personality.

    Best I came up with -

    We are still the best T1 tanks

    /sarcasm off

  4. #4
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    Did a dev comment on the self heal issue?

    The guard is also more comfortable against bosses that stun...he even takes advantage but...the warden has a ####ty gambit with a terrible cd and a skill with a cd of 2 mins. (Or sometimes you can interrupt the boss/mob but still)

    Actually...why is there a cd on the Shield Tactics stun immu anyway? It's not op because stun immu isn't THAAAT important anymore. It could still have a cd in red/yellow because of the pvmp but it would be acceptable in blue i think. The stun immu is sooo important for a class like the warden because we have SO much to do to keep our defense up and rely on b/p/a.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    Did a dev comment on the self heal issue?

    The guard is also more comfortable against bosses that stun...he even takes advantage but...the warden has a ####ty gambit with a terrible cd and a skill with a cd of 2 mins. (Or sometimes you can interrupt the boss/mob but still)

    Actually...why is there a cd on the Shield Tactics stun immu anyway? It's not op because stun immu isn't THAAAT important anymore. It could still have a cd in red/yellow because of the pvmp but it would be acceptable in blue i think. The stun immu is sooo important for a class like the warden because we have SO much to do to keep our defense up and rely on b/p/a.
    you're really asking why stunimmu has a CD?
    okay: its there, so that you need a LM to be immune against stun with 100% uptime. If Wardens could have that without help of a LM, they'd have a big advantage for fights with avoidable attacks and stunning enemies. Like for example addtanking in Mumaks fight, where getting stunned leads to a lot of incoming damage, which otherwise gets avoided.
    Sure, Guards can get out of stun with 30s CD and are stunimmune for 20s afterwards. That still leaves them with 10s time where stuns can happen. And getting stunned and using the antistunskill actually leaves ~1s of time for incoming attacks that cant be BPE'd, so its much better to not get stunned at all.
    And... afaik, shield-tactics IS only available for blue wardens. Its a traitline-setbonus.

    imo, they could change the stun-immu gambit so that it prevents the next CC attempt only (instead of 20s duration) but has no CD in exchange. That would be okay. So getting a NS-like buff that prevents only the next stun. as long as loremasters have permanent stunimmu for someone, partial uptime for stunimmu isnt really cool anyway.

    Selfheal of ALL tanks is too high (not calling champ tank here^^). Tanks shouldnt be able to self-sustain through instances. Not even at T1 and especially not in T2. At least not in instances with bigger groupsize than 3. 6mans and raids should always require a healer for every tank. Selfhealing tanks just make everything too easy and allow soloing instances, which should be an issue for any MMO. If some classes can solo 6mans and raids, those classes are OP or the instances too easy. And those classes usually are only able to do it, because they have too much selfheal (or in rare cases because enemies can be kited to death by mobile ranged DPSers).
    Last edited by Oelle; Jul 05 2018 at 12:42 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    ....
    Oh come on...The main role of the LM is not the "Stun preventer".They have enough to do anyway. Guards have a better defense, are able to do more against stuns and If they get stunned an get damage they have better panics to recover after the stun.
    I only play as a tank warden. So sry for that but I just wanted to prevent possible MP whining.
    Yeah but If they took the self heal from all tanks they really need to give the warden sth else to recover from a critical situation. We don't have anything. NS is BS. We actually always try tp prevent critical situations but we rely on the healer to do sth If we do sth wrong. The guard only needs to press a button to help the healer.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    And getting stunned and using the antistunskill actually leaves ~1s of time for incoming attacks that cant be BPE'd, so its much better to not get stunned at all.

    And... afaik, shield-tactics IS only available for blue wardens. Its a traitline-setbonus.

    Selfheal of ALL tanks is too high (not calling champ tank here^^). Tanks shouldnt be able to self-sustain through instances. Not even at T1 and especially not in T2. At least not in instances with bigger groupsize than 3. 6mans and raids should always require a healer for every tank.
    Lol ONE whole second of being hit through BPE for poor defenceless guardians? Tiny CD, immediate play stun-break with a reversal CJ component and a massive up-time of >66% for complete CC immunity (not just stun). vs what Warden (blue only) has. The difference is absolutely phenomenal before you even factor in the masses of survival skills/group utilities Guardian has over Warden and that the one thing that's half-decent (NS) is vastly inferior to WF that Guards have, and on twice the cooldown.

    Wardens need some gambit-based fellowship utility and a few non-gambit based survival skills available in all lines and buffed heavily in blue-line. Self heals for "all tanks" are not too strong right now, they're ok for T2C content imo. Warden self heals just need to scale somewhat, but I'd take no change to the heals if instead we'd get some survivability and oh-sh** skills + group utility.
    #15skills

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    Oh come on...The main role of the LM is not the "Stun preventer".They have enough to do anyway. Guards have a better defense, are able to do more against stuns and If they get stunned an get damage they have better panics to recover after the stun.
    I only play as a tank warden. So sry for that but I just wanted to prevent possible MP whining.
    Yeah but If they took the self heal from all tanks they really need to give the warden sth else to recover from a critical situation. We don't have anything. NS is BS. We actually always try tp prevent critical situations but we rely on the healer to do sth If we do sth wrong. The guard only needs to press a button to help the healer.
    LMs have quite much to do, if they want to, but keeping antistun on tanks is one of the main parts in many fights.

    Sure, Guardians have better defense than Wardens. As do Captains.
    Wardens for sure lack panic-skills.
    The game would get more interesting, if avoidance got more relevant again, and that alone would make wardens viable with their much higher partial avoidance (which can easily surpass sum of 100%, which is really hard to do for all other tanks). Making avoidance weaker across the board and keeping it as is for blue wardens plus having avoidance be a viable counter for bossskills would be a nice change.
    Having wardens be permanently stunimmune would only make them the go-to-tank for very few encounters. It wouldnt really help them for anything else. But yea, a permanently stunimmune tank is an issue for some situations. stunimmunity is an issue anyway. Thats why LMs stunimmu got nerfed hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Lol ONE whole second of being hit through BPE for poor defenceless guardians? Tiny CD, immediate play stun-break with a reversal CJ component and a massive up-time of >66% for complete CC immunity (not just stun). vs what Warden (blue only) has. The difference is absolutely phenomenal before you even factor in the masses of survival skills/group utilities Guardian has over Warden and that the one thing that's half-decent (NS) is vastly inferior to WF that Guards have, and on twice the cooldown.

    Wardens need some gambit-based fellowship utility and a few non-gambit based survival skills available in all lines and buffed heavily in blue-line. Self heals for "all tanks" are not too strong right now, they're ok for T2C content imo. Warden self heals just need to scale somewhat, but I'd take no change to the heals if instead we'd get some survivability and oh-sh** skills + group utility.
    masses of group utilities guardian has over warden? what?
    You mean those 2% increased mits and the ability to kill oneself with litany or shieldwall to prevent deaths in the group?
    thats better/more than -5% both mits, a little bit of groupheal and -20% inductions?
    thats debatable and clearly depends on the fight.

    If you're counting the damage reduction from warchant, you'll have to count the damage reduction from wardens gambits, which is near the same. But both tiny anyway.
    One may argue, that all the nice things wardens can do need to much time and have too short uptime and I'd agree. But that doesnt mean they cant do it.

    The thing I find most annoying when I play my warden is, that his debuff-purge-skill only purges one debuff. Guards clears 4, available in all traitsetups, with the same CD. and warden is even more sensitive to disarm/silence than Guard... a buff to 2 or 3 purged debuffs would really be welcome. As a tank, one regularly gets debuffed and should be able to counter that somehow. For cappies, I can see why they can only cure one, as its aoe and has other sideeffects (fear immunity for the group is OP in certain situations btw (I didnt invent calling purple debuffs "fear")). But wardens really should have a stronger skill against debuffs.


    When throne was active content, my Guardian could selfsustain against ~10 trashmobs while kiting 2 mumaks in T1 quite easily. I never even had good equipment. If I can do that in T1, usually someone could do it in T2 (usually the case for everything I can achieve in T1). The same worked with my Warden, just with the difference, that he actually killed the ~10 enemies before the fight was over, while selfhealing against their damage. That was clearly too much selfheal in those days. Sure, since Mordor the damage levels of enemies raised, but selfheal of guard/cappy didnt really change as most of it is percentual. Seregost is the most farmed instance since months and can easily be done without a healer with several tankclasses on T2. To me, thats too much selfheal. The only regularly played other instance since Mordor is the raid and even there in T1, I can pull big trashgroups and start a fight 20s before a healer reacts, if I want to... I'm not talking about T2, but as I said... usually, if I can do something in T1, there are some that can do it in T2 with better skill and equipment. It just shouldnt be possible imo.
    Imo, healing generally was too high for years in lotro. Especially selfheal (of all classes) and minstrels heals (who at least lost their aoe-bolster-spam).
    We may disagree on how healing should be done... but thats my opinion.
    Last edited by Oelle; Jul 05 2018 at 02:12 PM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    LMs have quite much to do, if they want to, but keeping antistun on tanks is one of the main parts in many fights.

    Sure, Guardians have better defense than Wardens. As do Captains.
    Wardens for sure lack panic-skills.
    The game would get more interesting, if avoidance got more relevant again, and that alone would make wardens viable with their much higher partial avoidance (which can easily surpass sum of 100%, which is really hard to do for all other tanks). Making avoidance weaker across the board and keeping it as is for blue wardens plus having avoidance be a viable counter for bossskills would be a nice change.
    Having wardens be permanently stunimmune would only make them the go-to-tank for very few encounters. It wouldnt really help them for anything else. But yea, a permanently stunimmune tank is an issue for some situations. stunimmunity is an issue anyway. Thats why LMs stunimmu got nerfed hard.



    masses of group utilities guardian has over warden? what?
    You mean those 2% increased mits and the ability to kill oneself with litany or shieldwall to prevent deaths in the group?
    thats better/more than -5% both mits, a little bit of groupheal and -20% inductions?
    thats debatable and clearly depends on the fight.

    If you're counting the damage reduction from warchant, you'll have to count the damage reduction from wardens gambits, which is near the same. But both tiny anyway.
    One may argue, that all the nice things wardens can do need to much time and have too short uptime and I'd agree. But that doesnt mean they cant do it.

    The thing I find most annoying when I play my warden is, that his debuff-purge-skill only purges one debuff. Guards clears 4, available in all traitsetups, with the same CD. and warden is even more sensitive to disarm/silence than Guard... a buff to 2 or 3 purged debuffs would really be welcome. As a tank, one regularly gets debuffed and should be able to counter that somehow. For cappies, I can see why they can only cure one, as its aoe and has other sideeffects (fear immunity for the group is OP in certain situations btw (I didnt invent calling purple debuffs "fear")). But wardens really should have a stronger skill against debuffs.


    When throne was active content, my Guardian could selfsustain against ~10 trashmobs while kiting 2 mumaks in T1 quite easily. I never even had good equipment. If I can do that in T1, usually someone could do it in T2 (usually the case for everything I can achieve in T1). The same worked with my Warden, just with the difference, that he actually killed the ~10 enemies before the fight was over, while selfhealing against their damage. That was clearly too much selfheal in those days. Sure, since Mordor the damage levels of enemies raised, but selfheal of guard/cappy didnt really change as most of it is percentual. Seregost is the most farmed instance since months and can easily be done without a healer with several tankclasses on T2. To me, thats too much selfheal. The only regularly played other instance since Mordor is the raid and even there in T1, I can pull big trashgroups and start a fight 20s before a healer reacts, if I want to... I'm not talking about T2, but as I said... usually, if I can do something in T1, there are some that can do it in T2 with better skill and equipment. It just shouldnt be possible imo.
    Imo, healing generally was too high for years in lotro. Especially selfheal (of all classes) and minstrels heals (who at least lost their aoe-bolster-spam).
    We may disagree on how healing should be done... but thats my opinion.
    Definitely shouldn't use examples of what you can do in T1 as synonymous for what others can do in T2. T2 is about a 300% increase in difficulty just based on Boss Stats. Not to mention Challenge modes can increase this jump even more drastically.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Definitely shouldn't use examples of what you can do in T1 as synonymous for what others can do in T2. T2 is about a 300% increase in difficulty just based on Boss Stats. Not to mention Challenge modes can increase this jump even more drastically.
    sure. and my gear and skill usually is so far behind, that I just saw others do in T2 what I can do in T1. There were people soloing T2c instances with ease, where I had no chance to do that, but when I did T1 solo, it looked like them doing T2. players play on completely different levels. my observation is: I can compare what others are capable of in T2 with what I can do in T1. If what I can do in T1 without any issues, then usually there are some players capable of doing the same in T2.
    I never was BiS equipped, use mouseclicking, mostly use my keyboard to turn around, dont use any plugins to track any CDs or anything... typical casual behaviour. Sure, T2 is all stats +150%, so 2.5x the incoming damage. Its just my observation. Tanks regularly kited 2 mumaks solo and I doubt that they never got attacked by trashmobs while doing so, as those trashes spawn from mumaks.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    sure. and my gear and skill usually is so far behind, that I just saw others do in T2 what I can do in T1. There were people soloing T2c instances with ease, where I had no chance to do that, but when I did T1 solo, it looked like them doing T2. players play on completely different levels. my observation is: I can compare what others are capable of in T2 with what I can do in T1. If what I can do in T1 without any issues, then usually there are some players capable of doing the same in T2.
    I never was BiS equipped, use mouseclicking, mostly use my keyboard to turn around, dont use any plugins to track any CDs or anything... typical casual behaviour. Sure, T2 is all stats +150%, so 2.5x the incoming damage. Its just my observation. Tanks regularly kited 2 mumaks solo and I doubt that they never got attacked by trashmobs while doing so, as those trashes spawn from mumaks.
    Yes, but no one is soloing instances anymore. Mordor has 1 soloable boss on T2C content and that's Dulgabeth. And in order to solo it as a Warden you have to make a pretty specific build. Plus it takes about 15 minutes and you can't even solo the boss before it in T2C anymore anyway so it's pretty much an irrelevant example.

    At level 105 Tanks were capping out at ~70k morale fully stat capped with the best essences. At level 115, Tanks can push close to 300k in a Raid. That's approximately a 2.5x increase in morale. Specifically Warden healing wasn't increased even by 100% to partially match the huge hike in max morale pool. Thus, the disparity between Warden survivability and Guardian or Captain survivability has increased pretty significantly. Sure. Warden's were soloing 3 man instances at 105 6 months after they were released while using the best possible gear and skill set up. This has always been the case when Warden survivability has been properly scaled to match that of a Guardian. What you can do solo should NEVER and I mean NEVER help determine how strong your class should be at tanking difficult group content such as a Raid. If you take the fact that during a balanced patch regarding Tanking, Warden's can solo better than a Guardian, as overpowered, Warden's will always have to take a back seat in Raid Tanking.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Yes, but no one is soloing instances anymore. Mordor has 1 soloable boss on T2C content and that's Dulgabeth. And in order to solo it as a Warden you have to make a pretty specific build. Plus it takes about 15 minutes and you can't even solo the boss before it in T2C anymore anyway so it's pretty much an irrelevant example.

    At level 105 Tanks were capping out at ~70k morale fully stat capped with the best essences. At level 115, Tanks can push close to 300k in a Raid. That's approximately a 2.5x increase in morale. Specifically Warden healing wasn't increased even by 100% to partially match the huge hike in max morale pool. Thus, the disparity between Warden survivability and Guardian or Captain survivability has increased pretty significantly. Sure. Warden's were soloing 3 man instances at 105 6 months after they were released while using the best possible gear and skill set up. This has always been the case when Warden survivability has been properly scaled to match that of a Guardian. What you can do solo should NEVER and I mean NEVER help determine how strong your class should be at tanking difficult group content such as a Raid. If you take the fact that during a balanced patch regarding Tanking, Warden's can solo better than a Guardian, as overpowered, Warden's will always have to take a back seat in Raid Tanking.
    I'm pretty sure its possible for mobile ranged dpsers to solo the first bossfight in Seregost, too.
    Dont think, anyone can solo the final fight, though. Not really an issue in T2, but T2c sounds too hard.

    So, thats the stats of BIS tanks. When 105 was cap, my guard was at ~45k morale and I dont even know if I had my mits t2-capped. Now, he's at 150k.
    Sure, the way warden is built, its better for soloing. I'm just saying that NO ONE should be able to solo 3man content on T2c, ever.
    And its been possible for many years with many different classes, mostly because of too much selfheal and too good equipment.
    Both just shouldnt exist.
    Sure, its unfair if guards and cappies retain their selfheal and wardens lose theirs. But the issue is with guard/cappy selfheal here, not with wardens, at least imo.

    If I'd make decisions, the only selfheals blue guards have would be WF and catch a breath. I'd take away their bolster block and make BotP yellow-only. Tanks shouldnt passively heal full their health. Tank healing should be panic-skills. For everything else, there's healers imo.
    Last edited by Oelle; Jul 05 2018 at 06:53 PM.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    I'm pretty sure its possible for mobile ranged dpsers to solo the first bossfight in Seregost, too.
    Dont think, anyone can solo the final fight, though. Not really an issue in T2, but T2c sounds too hard.

    So, thats the stats of BIS tanks. When 105 was cap, my guard was at ~45k morale and I dont even know if I had my mits t2-capped. Now, he's at 150k.
    Sure, the way warden is built, its better for soloing. I'm just saying that NO ONE should be able to solo 3man content on T2c, ever.
    And its been possible for many years with many different classes, mostly because of too much selfheal and too good equipment.
    Both just shouldnt exist.
    Sure, its unfair if guards and cappies retain their selfheal and wardens lose theirs. But the issue is with guard/cappy selfheal here, not with wardens, at least imo.

    If I'd make decisions, the only selfheals blue guards have would be WF and catch a breath. I'd take away their bolster block and make BotP yellow-only. Tanks shouldnt passively heal full their health. Tank healing should be panic-skills. For everything else, there's healers imo.
    Soloing content meant for multiple players has always existed in Lotro. A skilled Hunter could solo the Trolls Guarding the Carn Dum gates at level 50. A Champ built properly could even solo a good bit of the Carn Dum 6 man instance at level 50. Warden's have been soloing both 3 and 6 man's with a certain level of gear and skill since the class was released in Moria. So you suggesting that this is not how it should work is a little antithetical to how the game has worked pretty much forever. Like I said, part of Warden's being on par with Guardians as a Tank ends up being an increased capability to solo, because of the methods that Warden's use to survive. High B/P/E and stellar self heals are supposed to be what bridges the gap between Guardian and Warden tanking.

    I would be more than happy for them to strip us of self heals, as long as they did the same to Guardians. While they're at it, they will also need to give Wardens and Guardians the same base mitigation, the same major cooldowns, and/or make boss attacks B/P/E able again. Either they could do this, or make a much more simple fix of giving Warden's a big buff to self healing so that they can sustain themselves at max morale in a Raid so there is no risk of being 1 shot or killed by certain Combos. Because as it stands now, when a Guardian takes 6k TPS on Boss 1 of Abyss T2C, a Warden will take 12k. A Guardian will have 1k-2k HPS, reducing his actual damage taken per second to 4k-5k. Meanwhile a Warden keeping his 3 major HoT's up can realistically heal 3k-4k HPS, reducing his damage taken per second to about 8k-9k, which is still double that of a Guardian. Does this seem fair to you? It sure doesn't to me. Why shouldn't 2 classes that perform the same role as their main class role then perform that role equally or at least close to equally.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Soloing content meant for multiple players has always existed in Lotro. A skilled Hunter could solo the Trolls Guarding the Carn Dum gates at level 50. A Champ built properly could even solo a good bit of the Carn Dum 6 man instance at level 50. Warden's have been soloing both 3 and 6 man's with a certain level of gear and skill since the class was released in Moria. So you suggesting that this is not how it should work is a little antithetical to how the game has worked pretty much forever. Like I said, part of Warden's being on par with Guardians as a Tank ends up being an increased capability to solo, because of the methods that Warden's use to survive. High B/P/E and stellar self heals are supposed to be what bridges the gap between Guardian and Warden tanking.

    I would be more than happy for them to strip us of self heals, as long as they did the same to Guardians. While they're at it, they will also need to give Wardens and Guardians the same base mitigation, the same major cooldowns, and/or make boss attacks B/P/E able again. Either they could do this, or make a much more simple fix of giving Warden's a big buff to self healing so that they can sustain themselves at max morale in a Raid so there is no risk of being 1 shot or killed by certain Combos. Because as it stands now, when a Guardian takes 6k TPS on Boss 1 of Abyss T2C, a Warden will take 12k. A Guardian will have 1k-2k HPS, reducing his actual damage taken per second to 4k-5k. Meanwhile a Warden keeping his 3 major HoT's up can realistically heal 3k-4k HPS, reducing his damage taken per second to about 8k-9k, which is still double that of a Guardian. Does this seem fair to you? It sure doesn't to me. Why shouldn't 2 classes that perform the same role as their main class role then perform that role equally or at least close to equally.
    give wardens 7-8k HPS and they dont need a healer for any 3man or 6man. Is that what you think should be aimed for?
    I'd prefer wardens having viable defense and such not taking 12k TPS or whatever is much more than what Guards take.
    Imo, each tank should take the same TPS relative to his average morale pool. Tanks with less reductions/avoidance should have more morale/incheal as a counter, just like guard/cappy worked forever. The advantage of wardens in avoidance is useless, therefore they got higher minimal mits and morale, but its still not enough. I'd prefer avoidance being useful over wardens becoming cappy2. But high selfheal for tanks shouldnt be the solution.

    btw: 3-4k HPS sounds like Persevere-Chain. Having Conviction should increase it to roughly 4-5k. For 10 surrounding targets, it should easily be possible to sustain 10k HPS (obviously at the cost of sustaining other buffs) with lifetaps.
    Last edited by Oelle; Jul 06 2018 at 11:57 AM.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    give wardens 7-8k HPS and they dont need a healer for any 3man or 6man. Is that what you think should be aimed for?
    I'd prefer wardens having viable defense and such not taking 12k TPS or whatever is much more than what Guards take.
    Imo, each tank should take the same TPS relative to his average morale pool. Tanks with less reductions/avoidance should have more morale/incheal as a counter, just like guard/cappy worked forever. The advantage of wardens in avoidance is useless, therefore they got higher minimal mits and morale, but its still not enough. I'd prefer avoidance being useful over wardens becoming cappy2. But high selfheal for tanks shouldnt be the solution.

    btw: 3-4k HPS sounds like Persevere-Chain. Having Conviction should increase it to roughly 4-5k. For 10 surrounding targets, it should easily be possible to sustain 10k HPS (obviously at the cost of sustaining other buffs) with lifetaps.
    The HPS you give other players in a group is irrelevant when talking about effective tanking HPS. However I agree, it would be nice if the intended B/P/E bonus Wardens get actually meant something like it used to. 3k-4k is what you can reliably keep up on yourself against a single target boss like Fingar or Dulgabeth so that's why I quoted it. Realistically to maintain all of your additional mitigation, you only have time to use Safeguard, Restoration, and maybe Celebration of skill for the incoming healing and block bonus. I'm not counting Conviction because to me it's really part of the mitigation skill rotation. I specifically wasn't counting all of the extra heals Conviction gives to fellowship members. And actually, you're right. At level 65 I remember keeping my entire group alive with only a Captain using revealing mark combined with Conviction spam. I guess your argument is that this shouldn't be allowed but that's where we disagree.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    Did a dev comment on the self heal issue?

    The guard is also more comfortable against bosses that stun...he even takes advantage but...the warden has a ####ty gambit with a terrible cd and a skill with a cd of 2 mins. (Or sometimes you can interrupt the boss/mob but still)

    Actually...why is there a cd on the Shield Tactics stun immu anyway? It's not op because stun immu isn't THAAAT important anymore. It could still have a cd in red/yellow because of the pvmp but it would be acceptable in blue i think. The stun immu is sooo important for a class like the warden because we have SO much to do to keep our defense up and rely on b/p/a.
    If we are talking about Thrang a decent warden won't get stunned.
    The problem with Shield Tactics is that it's bugged, if you get stunned instantly after using it the stun immune dosn't work. This together with the skill lag (from update 22.2) and the fact that it's a gambit, makes it difficult the use it in time in some fights. For example Warg-Pens has plenty of stuns that you need to avoid quickly.

    There is nothing else wrong with the gambit itself. No tank should be able to keep 100% uptime on stun immune.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    Warden self heals supposedly compensate for the fact that wardens take
    more damage than a Guard when tanking.

    Try tanking Thrang on a Guard, then try with a Warden (i have both).
    Watch as your Warden self heals don't measure up.
    6k TPS (you can get lower if you properly place him that only he get the fumeroles and not you), 8k HPS as warden .. everything is fine, as a warden you dont need any external healing.

  18. #18
    Increasing self heals is honestly not right, atm a warden can self heal around 5k HPS in single target fights. That's half of what minis usually do, I think they are fine with healing (guard/cappy self heals should be reduced imo apart from the emergency skills), the problem atm is the way higher tps, which really makes a huge difference. In mordath t2c first boss you can take less tps on a warden than you do on a guard because of having 100% partial avoids and hits being avoidable, on sagrog you cannot stand against the damage due to the 0% avoids. If they made the warden able to partially avoid non avoidable hits or immune to avoid debuffs and all that would be more than enough. That and please please please increase drastically the duration of buffs, like 1 min base duration instead of 30s.

  19. #19
    The point of my post was not to suggest that a Warden should self-heal difficult group content. It was to contrast
    what the Warden experience is like vs the Guard, and then to ask why is it STILL so much worse.

    Wardens take more damage than a Guard, and the common answer to that is, yea but they have self heals to compensate for that.
    But, it isn't really compensating for it.

    Sure, with high numbers of easy mobs the Warden looks like super-man due to moral taps.
    In harder content the Guard is the better tank by far, and the Warden struggles to even use what he/she has in a timely fashion.

    They should be about equally capable tanking whatever content, just doing things differently.
    Last edited by JLotro; Jul 08 2018 at 10:29 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    In mordath t2c first boss you can take less tps on a warden than you do on a guard because of having 100% partial avoids and hits being avoidable, on sagrog you cannot stand against the damage due to the 0% avoids. If they made the warden able to partially avoid non avoidable hits or immune to avoid debuffs and all that would be more than enough. That and please please please increase drastically the duration of buffs, like 1 min base duration instead of 30s.
    Thats exactly what I said a while ago, on I think bullroarer forum. That part about let wardens partial non avoidable hits if they are in blue. About 2nd part 1min if too long would be too OP imo. But it should be around maybe 40-45sec?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Increasing self heals is honestly not right, atm a warden can self heal around 5k HPS in single target fights. That's half of what minis usually do, I think they are fine with healing (guard/cappy self heals should be reduced imo apart from the emergency skills), the problem atm is the way higher tps, which really makes a huge difference. In mordath t2c first boss you can take less tps on a warden than you do on a guard because of having 100% partial avoids and hits being avoidable, on sagrog you cannot stand against the damage due to the 0% avoids. If they made the warden able to partially avoid non avoidable hits or immune to avoid debuffs and all that would be more than enough. That and please please please increase drastically the duration of buffs, like 1 min base duration instead of 30s.
    Sure, this is the case now, with 20% increased base morale and way overblown stats from gear. Boss 1 wasn't even tankable as a Warden during progression because the majority of burst damage taken during Boss 1 of Mordath comes from supplicant sacrifices. If 2x happen at once with a Warden Tank who has any less than 180k morale, it's a guaranteed death because those hits aren't avoidable with BPE stats. Overall I agree though. They could just make an exception in boss mechanic code for special attacks like these. If the target is a Warden, then the special attack doesn't bypass BPE. However, with how current combat mechanics work, all special attacks that are tactically based would have to become physically based, as tactically based attacks automatically bypass BPE. It's a general combat mechanic that has been in the game for quite a while.

    So the ###### part about this solution is that the only way to allow classes to avoid all incoming damage with BPE or partial avoidance would be to change all boss damage to physical based attacks. Thus, tactical mitigation and outgoing tactical damage debuffs would be rendered moot in all instance scenarios.

    The only way I see them getting around this is by making some line in the boss mechanic coding that states: If Target=Warden, Ability X=Physical. Still, this would run into the problem of giving Warden's a pass on Tactical mit requirements.

    The only other option is to give Warden's increased Self heals to basically marginalize the Damage they receive and then stack massive pools of morale and cap incoming healing, or give us hard line cooldowns similar to what Guardians and Captains have.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Sure, this is the case now, with 20% increased base morale and way overblown stats from gear. Boss 1 wasn't even tankable as a Warden during progression because the majority of burst damage taken during Boss 1 of Mordath comes from supplicant sacrifices. If 2x happen at once with a Warden Tank who has any less than 180k morale, it's a guaranteed death because those hits aren't avoidable with BPE stats. Overall I agree though. They could just make an exception in boss mechanic code for special attacks like these. If the target is a Warden, then the special attack doesn't bypass BPE. However, with how current combat mechanics work, all special attacks that are tactically based would have to become physically based, as tactically based attacks automatically bypass BPE. It's a general combat mechanic that has been in the game for quite a while.

    So the ###### part about this solution is that the only way to allow classes to avoid all incoming damage with BPE or partial avoidance would be to change all boss damage to physical based attacks. Thus, tactical mitigation and outgoing tactical damage debuffs would be rendered moot in all instance scenarios.

    The only way I see them getting around this is by making some line in the boss mechanic coding that states: If Target=Warden, Ability X=Physical. Still, this would run into the problem of giving Warden's a pass on Tactical mit requirements.

    The only other option is to give Warden's increased Self heals to basically marginalize the Damage they receive and then stack massive pools of morale and cap incoming healing, or give us hard line cooldowns similar to what Guardians and Captains have.
    Attack type (Melee/Ranged/tactical, which decides which type of avoidance is relevant (BPE/BP/Resistance)) doesnt force damage type. Ranged and Melee attacks can still face tactical mitigations. See hunters
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Attack type (Melee/Ranged/tactical, which decides which type of avoidance is relevant (BPE/BP/Resistance)) doesnt force damage type. Ranged and Melee attacks can still face tactical mitigations. See hunters
    Exactly, it could be melee/ranged (avoidable) and shadow damage (tactical mit).

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    177
    Im patiently waiting for that gy children eru leader since cant say his name on forum's to come and disapprove, I just did thrang on my yellow lm his warden tank took 3.2k TPS entire thrang fight, im sure you my missed scrapper 200% fire mits or didnt interrupt a fumaroles and got sunned with the debuff ad 10 mobs on you

    also warden tank we did fingar other day got our mini' bolster induction to 0.5 seconds + our hunters had even more insane fast inductions same with rk's utility vs survival must pick cant have both or your op hence the rk got nerfed

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,190
    Wardens just need survival skills that match that of Guardians, and bosses need to be BPE'able (albeit pass through a substantial portion of it).

    Warriors Fortitude is hilariously more potent than Never Surrender, can be popped on demand, has an attached 30k(+) bubble, and leaves a permanent-in-combat buff on the Guard. Catch a Breath used every 25-35 seconds heals more (by a fairly substantial margin) than Persevere line heals (all 3 simultaneously) and is an immediate clickable rather than 25+ skills you have to play pre-emptively.

    Warden just isn't geared (skill wise) around being a main tank right now and it needs to change, the best way is for decent survival cooldowns to be implemented (clickables, NOT gambits), decent group utility to be added (gambits, NOT clickables), and self heals to be percentage based but kept at a reasonable level where Wardens are NOT making healers redundant.

    Regarding people soloing 3 and 6man content, it's been that way forever for almost all classes if played right, couldn't care less, it takes absolutely hours and is a complete waste of time. This is said as someone who's wasted countless hours soloing (or attempting to) many instances, including (successfully) Flight to the Lonely Mountain on-level back at 100. It takes so long it's better to do the content with a group.
    #15skills

 

 
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