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  1. #1

    Virtue System Update Proposal

    Hello all!

    This thread is a propose for an update, or revamp, if you like, to the virtue system, more specifically, to its formula.



    The Problem

    Currently, the virtue system uses a basic formula, at least on some stats and ranks, in the form of stat value times the virtue rank, e.g., the first ten ranks in the armour stat of the Zeal virtue.

    In other words, the said current formula could be written like this:

    stat_value = base_stat_value * virtue_rank

    The problem with this formula is that the higher the rank of the virtue, the less significant is the value of the stat provived by said virtues, as the level of the character and the amount necessary of the stats increases.



    The Possible Solution

    The objective of the proposed formula is to make each rank, or rank up, of a virtue count in the calculation of the final value of all stats in a virtue.

    Considering, as example, a virtue at the current virtue rank cap, rank 20, with the new formula the 3 stats of a virtue would be calculated something like this:

    stat_value = (base_stat_value * 1) + (base_stat_value * 2) + (base_stat_value * 3) + ... + (base_stat_value * 20)

    Then, the new formula could be written like:

    stat_value = base_stat_value * (virtue_rank * (virtue_rank + 1) / 2)

    Putting it to words, the new formula would be the product of the base stat value times the sum of the virtues ranks (or integers) from 1 to the current virtue rank.

    For those interested in checking how the stats of a specific virtue would be using this formula, I've made a spreadsheet for it, that you can find here: virtues.ods.

    The spreadsheet is using the base stats of the virtue Innocence by default, you can test another virtue by replacing the purple values found in the column B.



    Tying Variables

    Maybe something to add to said update to make virtues even more meaninful is to tie its rank cap to the character level cap.

    Currently, the virtue rank cap is 20, and the character level cap is 115, but the virtues rank cap has been long overdue for an increase, and soon the characters level cap will increase as well, so, to make everthing work together, the virtue rank cap (maybe stat tomes cap as well so we have the same cap value and less confusion!) could be one rank of virtue for every 5 character level cap.

    Written as a formula that would be:

    virtue_rank_cap = character_level_cap / 5

    With that, at the current character level cap, it would produce a virtue rank cap of 23, and with the future update which will increase the character level cap to 120, a virtue rank cap of 24.



    Final Thoughts

    Some may think that with this new formula the stats of some virtues would become too high at the virtue rank cap, but, of course, once the new formula is in place, the base stats of the virtues could be adjusted to reflect what would be a fair (and hopefully significant as well!) value.

    With the new formula a rank up in a virtue would become way more meaningful and impact positively in the gameplay and character progression.



    Thanks for the attention!
    Last edited by Merloth; Jul 04 2018 at 01:10 PM.

  2. #2
    the highest ranks of virtues already have increased impact.
    but I'd clearly prefer a smooth formula that scales simply plus a virtue cap that automatically raises with level.
    Therefore, I completely support this suggestion.

    I'd like to add one little point: maybe, additional virtue ranks should even be stronger than x^2, as a raised levelcap usually roughly doubles players stats.
    x^2 raises quite fast at lower ranks, but slower the higher you get. that shouldnt be the case for virtues.
    I'd go more with a formula like 1.3^x for raise of virtue effects.
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  3. #3
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    IMO the virtue system requires a basic revamp first. As said in another thread, doing 5x20 virtues means quite a lot of kills (even if half of them are explorer deeds). Keeping the virtue system relevant means to increase this number even further in the future. Of course many of our old chars have these virtue levels, but I guess we all can see the pain when starting a new char.

    The value problem is btw also the case for stat-legacies on ILIs.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    IMO the virtue system requires a basic revamp first. As said in another thread, doing 5x20 virtues means quite a lot of kills (even if half of them are explorer deeds). Keeping the virtue system relevant means to increase this number even further in the future. Of course many of our old chars have these virtue levels, but I guess we all can see the pain when starting a new char.

    The value problem is btw also the case for stat-legacies on ILIs.
    Whenever I create a new character and just quest through the world, when that character reaches levelcap, he usually has most virtues at ~10-15. Thats with questing and ignoring all slayer/explorer deeds that dont happen automatically. So depending on which virtue one wants, some or up to half of deeds are missing... but as there are virtue bonusses from valar stuff and virtue ranks in the store, I dont really see them making it easier to get virtue ranks... Yes, its grindy, but there is a reason for that (money to skip the grind) and as long as virtues are just as strong as two or three equipment slots (all 5 together), its no necessary grind, therefore to me its acceptable if its grindy. Wouldnt be if one had to do it.

    ILI system needs levelscaling for everything thats not percentual. LI before imbuement had that somehow, as newly made items had higher stats... since ILI thats gone and it clearly needs to come back. I'd clearly prefer those stats being scaled with wielders character level though, as all other ways allow lvl100 toons to wield endgamelevel items with far too high dps values and create too large gaps between people that do the grind and those that dont.
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  5. #5
    I've edited the original post and added a spreadsheet for download, for those interested in testing the proposed formula.

    Thanks!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Merloth View Post
    I've edited the original post and added a spreadsheet for download, for those interested in testing the proposed formula.

    Thanks!
    And I'll still argue, that exponential fits current character development better than potential.

    btw: NPCs (enemies) in instances from lvl20 to lvl105 got scaled with x^2.4 to x^2.6, depending on the instance.
    Even that kind of scaling made old instances scaled to higher levels very easy, because player characters raise faster in power.
    Every scaling formula should raise the same way in the game. Doesnt matter if its item stats (which depend on itemlevel and number of slices), stats on ILI, stats of scaled players, stats of scaled NPCs or virtues.
    They dont. And thats the main reason, why scaled things are either boring or near impossible, which simply depends on from which side you come.

    example: low level players scaled to lvl100 for epic battles nearly have the same defensive stats, but completely worthless offensive stats. They cant heal in viable ways and dont deal viable damage. lack of LI is part of the issue. When the levelcap raised to 115, upscaled lvl105 players with thronraidgear oneshotted everything. I didnt yet check the scaling formula from lvl106-115, but its obviously not the same formula like for 20-105.
    It doesnt even matter, which scaling formula is used for which level, as long as its the same formula for everything that gets scaled in those levels and makes sense (which means that it needs to compensate lowlevels for not having LI if they get upscaled). x^2 doesnt do that currently.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Yes, its grindy, but there is a reason for that (money to skip the grind) and as long as virtues are just as strong as two or three equipment slots (all 5 together), its no necessary grind, therefore to me its acceptable if its grindy. Wouldnt be if one had to do it.
    I disagree. Analysis of long term grind is usually done per thread about one of these grinds. The sum of the grind and the sum of advantages is more than its parts.
    Besides that history shows that the importance of these grinds changes from time to time (e.g. HD mitigation update), accompanied by forum posts of those that have always known better and kept grind X up to date.
    IMO the sum of permanent advantage grind should be limited by design.

    In terms of "pay for convenience" I would also add that this was initially an F2P/premium concept, but by now PfC has well stepped into subscriptions and is IMO invalidating them for cap players. It is much cheaper to switch from the content based subscription to PfC payments unless PvP is desired (the part of the game that evolves least). It is pay for convenience, not pay for inconvenience and then pay again to remove it.

    Actually one could also discuss the coupling of LP and grind that offers ingame advantages. The importance of virtues with the HD revamp caused me to grind ~150 levels of virtues on my alts, which resulted in a lot of LP. IMO a failed design step.

  8. #8
    The update I would like to see first is another reduction of the grind. We go from 30/60 in Breeland to 100/200 in later areas without consideration of mob density. Since the virtues are given by finishing the second tier alt characters will become less enjoyable if they are even playable. Maybe move or add the virtue to the first tier. My RK is already shelved and this might in addition to other things be her low virtue count.


    In my opinion enhancement items shouldn't even be in the store since they are p2w.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    The update I would like to see first is another reduction of the grind. We go from 30/60 in Breeland to 100/200 in later areas without consideration of mob density.
    Definitely one of the options for today, but not IMO not in the long term. If we reduce kills today and virtues are increased in the future, we will end up exactly at the same overall kill numbers as today.

    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    In my opinion enhancement items shouldn't even be in the store since they are p2w.
    In general yes, but the border of pay for convenience vs. p2w is floating. It is a balance between inconvenience level and advantage gained by the item. In the late years we had items that were definitely on the dark side...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Every scaling formula should raise the same way in the game. Doesnt matter if its item stats (which depend on itemlevel and number of slices), stats on ILI, stats of scaled players, stats of scaled NPCs or virtues.
    They dont. And thats the main reason, why scaled things are either boring or near impossible, which simply depends on from which side you come.
    That would probably be the optimum approach for all scaling problems, but, until that happens, maybe the proposed formula here could be used, or adapted, to solve, or at least, mitigate one of the problems which, in this thread, is the importance of virtues.

  11. #11
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    I would love for virtues to have more of an impact. I would love even more to reduce the grind. To that end, I offered this suggestion two months ago:

    Instead of having each deed tied to a specific virtue, have them simply reward a virtue point that you may use to purchase a rank in whichever virtue you like. It doesn't even need to be a 1:1 ratio of points to ranks. Maybe the higher it ranks up, the more "virtue points" it costs to rank it up one step. While you're at it, maybe make a pass over the benefits the virtues award to make some of them more useful.
    Reference: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ue-Revamp-idea
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Merloth View Post
    With the new formula a rank up in a virtue would become way more meaningful and impact positively in the gameplay and character progression.
    To maintain a similar balance to the level of player power currently in the game, in what other places should stats be reduced to compensate for more powerful virtue traits?

  13. #13
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    I just want something that makes the game more alt friendly. I just don’t have the energy to deed for each and every alt to get ahead with virtues. It’s just too much to add on top of the legendary weapons, legendary items, war steeds, and essence gear.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    To maintain a similar balance to the level of player power currently in the game, in what other places should stats be reduced to compensate for more powerful virtue traits?
    The whole point of this proposal was to make virtues more meaningful, of course, with the current base stats in some virtues, a few of them would need to be adjusted to a better value, otherwise they would indeed become too powerful, but, virtues could be more powerful without the need of reducing any other stat elsewhere, as example, virtues could be the main source of mitigations, or even avoidances in general (resistance, block, parry, evade) or, maybe even another source of finesse (!), if the stats on some of them were changed. Virtues being the main source of defensive stats (as example) would leave more room in essence slots for something else that the player want to slot, and defensive stats would not be something as critical to have essences slotted for it, if the character had the proper virtues providing the said stats traited and ranked high enough.

    Currently, some virtues offer stat values at the virtue rank cap, 20, inferior to the stat value provided by an essence. Virtues could mean more than that.

  15. #15
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    For balanced leveling etc. the strength of the virtues should be based on the virtuelevel and the charlevel same for the legacies on the LIs. In this way they won´t this op on lower level as the maxlevel.
    Or an other opportunity would be to cap them with the level. eg. level 100 levelcap virtues is 20, l50 it´s 10, l25 it´s 5 and so on.
    Same for the imbued LIs give it max-legacyrank 69 for l115 (atm) starting with l100 this means 4,6 ranks per level. for a natural value the max rank should get a number which is divisible with the new maxlevel-100. e.g new maxlevel is 125 new maxrank would be 75 so we´ve factor 3, which means the legacies would have the maxrank 3 on 100 6 on 101 and so on until 75 on 125.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Same for the imbued LIs give it max-legacyrank 69 for l115 (atm) starting with l100 this means 4,6 ranks per level. for a natural value the max rank should get a number which is divisible with the new maxlevel-100. e.g new maxlevel is 125 new maxrank would be 75 so we´ve factor 3, which means the legacies would have the maxrank 3 on 100 6 on 101 and so on until 75 on 125.
    legacy cap at characterlevel 100 should be 35.
    at Rank 35, imbued legacies usually have the same potency like unimbued legacies.
    So it shouldnt raise from 0/1 at 100 to 69 at 115, it should start at 35 and raise from there.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    legacy cap at characterlevel 100 should be 35.
    at Rank 35, imbued legacies usually have the same potency like unimbued legacies.
    So it shouldnt raise from 0/1 at 100 to 69 at 115, it should start at 35 and raise from there.
    Then IT would be better to Set Level 1 imbue to level 10 unimbued and reduce the maxlevel for 35 levels.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Then IT would be better to Set Level 1 imbue to level 10 unimbued and reduce the maxlevel for 35 levels.
    well... I wont disagree, and imo, it would be nice, if unimbued legacies were kept and then some other things added... like legacies for reduced CDs/increased durations etc, which were exchanged for some classes. there is nothing wrong with adding bonusses as soon as the old bonus is reached. but I dont like losing so many nice legacies. like duration of buffs for wardens or duration of guardians moralebonus.

    I would be fine, if all the ILI system rework did was adding catch-up, letting everything scale the same way (no big jumps between some ranks while others being the same) and adding ILI-non-percentage stats being scaled with characterlevel.

    But if, additionally, they reworked the legacies to keep all unimbued legacies and maybe even starting at those values instead of needing millions of LIEXP to get what one already had, that would for sure be a good change, too.
    Giving beornings their missing legacies (because they dont have many good ones and less than all others) and reworking some (both imbued and umimbued, like Hunters critical magnitude being just one legacy like for champs) would in the end make it an awesome rework.
    But basics first. Better get a system thats okay for everyone than getting cool features in but having the huge grind for newcomers and multiple toons that prevents people from even starting.
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  19. #19
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    Yeah like a system which set the max rank of a li as function of the chat level. Like Level +1= legacy rank +2 Starting with l 100 = rank 5. So atm we would be on rank 35 for the legacies. If they would Start now with rank 1 as powerful as l 10 unimbueded. This system would be fair

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Yeah like a system which set the max rank of a li as function of the chat level. Like Level +1= legacy rank +2 Starting with l 100 = rank 5. So atm we would be on rank 35 for the legacies. If they would Start now with rank 1 as powerful as l 10 unimbueded. This system would be fair
    there still needs to be room for legacy increases via SoE and Crystals. Otherwise, people will ragequit, because they spent a fortune on SoE/Crystals for nothing after the rework.
    All the ranks we unlocked must still be unlockable. However, latecomers should get a part of them for free.
    Levelscaling shouldnt just give us legacy ranks, it should only increase non-percentage things.
    Say you start with 500dps on your weapon at lvl100. Each time you use a crystal, you'd get +5 dps, ending with 600dps with 20 crystals.
    On to of that, leveling up will give you +50dps per level. ending at 1250 dps at lvl115 without crystals and 1350dps at lvl115 with 20 crystals.
    At lvl105, you'd be somewhere between 750 and 850 dps, depending on the number of crystal.
    This example is additive, and actually, multiplicative would be better... but better additive than nothing.

    I just dont see a single reason, why leveling up should increase legacies that give percentual bonusses like critical magnitude.
    But for non-percentage things like twohanded mainstats, might/will/agi/fate/vita legacies or things like "rend armour bonus", "parryrating from guardians ward" or "masteryfromanthemofwar", increase with level totally makes sense, because otherwise, those legacies get weaker with every levelup.
    on lvl100, getting +100 might from a mainstat or legacy might have been nice.
    On lvl115, it should be somewhere in the range of 500-1000 to be a viable bonus. I'll make a guess and write that on lvl120 it would have to be 1000-2000 to be viable. Having those legacies increase with +10 legacy ranks, which is +20 on those stats is totally irrelevant.
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