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  1. #1

    U22.2.2 War Chant

    "War Chant now does physical damage."

    War Chant Effect Duration pre-imbue legacy changes to Light Damage legacy post imbuement. With War Chant changing to physical damage, that leaves just Flash of Light (yellow trait bonus) and Cataclysmic Shout as the only sources of light damage for a Guardian after U22.2.2. Is this legacy going to change, as it will be mostly useless after the update and light damage legacy shouldn't be sourced from the War Chant legacy given it wont be doing Light Damage any longer.

    My memory isn't what it used to be but I thought War Chant originally did weapon damage and was changed to light damage after imbuement first came out, and thus the post imbuement change to the legacy. Is there a reason for the change? Yellow is now a bit light on for light damage imo and it seems pointless to try and scale it just for Flash of Light and Cataclsymic Shout, given both are underwhelming. War Chant also now become impossible to scale as there are no legacies which effectively supports it. With the significant nerf to Challenge, War-Chant can ill afford damage nerfs as it was the primary way for Guards to get some non-force taunt area threat on mobs.

  2. #2
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    This is being discussed in more depth in another thread, but there are two problems with War-Chant at the moment:

    1) I wrote the change note incorrectly. War-chant should still do light damage, but should pull from your physical (rather than tactical) damage source. This is, for almost all guardians, a major buff. AFAIK, it is currently working correctly.

    2) I forgot to adjust the base damage of the skill when I did this and now it will hit much too hard for an AoE, so I will have to re-tune it shortly. I suggest you not expend significant resources to take advantage of it until it is rebalanced properly (which should be fairly soon).

    -Vastin

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    This is being discussed in more depth in another thread, but there are two problems with War-Chant at the moment:

    1) I wrote the change note incorrectly. War-chant should still do light damage, but should pull from your physical (rather than tactical) damage source. This is, for almost all guardians, a major buff. AFAIK, it is currently working correctly.

    2) I forgot to adjust the base damage of the skill when I did this and now it will hit much too hard for an AoE, so I will have to re-tune it shortly. I suggest you not expend significant resources to take advantage of it until it is rebalanced properly (which should be fairly soon).

    -Vastin
    Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this is a major concern for me.

    What's happening to the missing targets on Shield-Smash and Shield-Taunt? They both lost a single target in the recent patch.

    Edit: On the contrary, weren't the max AOE targets supposed to increase?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decrepify View Post
    Sorry for hijacking the thread, but this is a major concern for me.

    What's happening to the missing targets on Shield-Smash and Shield-Taunt? They both lost a single target in the recent patch.

    Edit: On the contrary, weren't the max AOE targets supposed to increase?
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post

    1) I wrote the change note incorrectly. War-chant should still do light damage, but should pull from your physical (rather than tactical) damage source. This is, for almost all guardians, a major buff. AFAIK, it is currently working correctly.
    Also it seems to me that another belt legacy affects war-chant damage. Maybe shield damage or smth.
    Last edited by Siddharta; Jun 13 2018 at 02:13 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddharta View Post
    Also it seems to me that another belt legacy affects war-chant damage. Maybe shield damage or smth.
    Yep, it's Shield Damage. Since 2013. And so did Shield Use Rank
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post


    2) I forgot to adjust the base damage of the skill when I did this and now it will hit much too hard for an AoE, so I will have to re-tune it shortly. I suggest you not expend significant resources to take advantage of it until it is rebalanced properly (which should be fairly soon).

    -Vastin
    Well, the skill is not OP at all. Shield Smash and Sweeping Cut have shorter cooldowns and deal more damage. What you should do instead is buff Vexing Blow and Whirling Retaliation by increasing its maximum targets to like 8 - 10.
    I suggest you ask the players whether they think the skill is OP or not before you make that decision... they are usually honest.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    Well, the skill is not OP at all. Shield Smash and Sweeping Cut have shorter cooldowns and deal more damage. What you should do instead is buff Vexing Blow and Whirling Retaliation by increasing its maximum targets to like 8 - 10.
    I suggest you ask the players whether they think the skill is OP or not before you make that decision... they are usually honest.
    Sweeping cut isn't even remotely close to warchant... Shield smash hits more but in reality building it is way more tasking than shield-smash. With legacy vexing blow and whirling retaliation in tank traits should hit about same as warchant.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Sweeping cut isn't even remotely close to warchant... Shield smash hits more but in reality building it is way more tasking than shield-smash. With legacy vexing blow and whirling retaliation in tank traits should hit about same as warchant.
    I am taking in consideration these two skills alone without any traits or legacies. Sweeping Cut hits 5 targets and War Chant hits 3. I am not sure why you think sweeping cut isn't remotely close to War Chant, it all depends on traits. If you're traited Red Line with Sweeping Cut and Bleed legacies, sweeping cut should be hitting more than War Chant... but if you have no traits on Sweeping Cut and spend it all on Yellow line, then yes, War Chant would be superior, but not faaaar superior.
    Last edited by DiogoVP; Jun 13 2018 at 10:33 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    This is being discussed in more depth in another thread, but there are two problems with War-Chant at the moment:

    1) I wrote the change note incorrectly. War-chant should still do light damage, but should pull from your physical (rather than tactical) damage source. This is, for almost all guardians, a major buff. AFAIK, it is currently working correctly.

    2) I forgot to adjust the base damage of the skill when I did this and now it will hit much too hard for an AoE, so I will have to re-tune it shortly. I suggest you not expend significant resources to take advantage of it until it is rebalanced properly (which should be fairly soon).

    -Vastin
    Thanks for the update, I agree it will be better for us not to have any tactical damage abilities... in theory, however, I think it becomes much harder to balance between tank and dps builds. Also, Cataclysmic Shout is still a tactical damage skill.

    I am not sure how the mechanics work at present but War Chant used to get some benefit from the following LI stats/legacies:
    Area Effect Skill Damage (weapon)
    Shield Use Rank (belt)
    Light Damage (belt) -> War Chant Effect Duration (pre imbuement)
    Shield Damage (belt)

    I am not sure if Shield Use does anything since the previous dps changes, it used to get most of it's damage scaling off Light Damage and Area Effect Skill Damage legacies.

    I built a hybrid shield dps spec that uses primarily the shield abilities since Mordor came out due to the amount of incoming damage was quite severe and our damage output was poor back then, it got a huge damage boost with the tactical damage runes and is now even stronger with the recent damage changes since the shield abilities scale off the weapon.

    I don't know how you are going to balance these abilities because in a pure tank spec neither war-chant nor shield-smash are that great, but in a dps spec or hybrid dps build you have at least double the physical mastery that you have in a tank spec. I think the main benefit of the tactical damage abilities pre tactical damage runes was that you could give the abilities a high base damage and limited options of scaling and it wouldn't be radically better for dps specs. However, that was the mindset that prevailed that also had no issues with guards doing terrible landscape damage. I feel you are on the right path in terms of where you want the Guardian to be, I just don't know how you are going to get there with the current mechanics.

    I don't want to see my hybrid shield dps build nerfed into uselessness because I spent a lot of time and resources putting it together, but it hits like a truck and shield-smash makes the current war-chant damage look mediocre by comparison and you need a lot more investment to get war-chant to produce it's current high-end numbers.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    I am taking in consideration these two skills alone without any traits or legacies. Sweeping Cut hits 5 targets and War Chant hits 3. I am not sure why you think sweeping cut isn't remotely close to War Chant, it all depends on traits. If you're traited Red Line with Sweeping Cut and Bleed legacies, sweeping cut should be hitting more than War Chant... but if you have no traits on Sweeping Cut and spend it all on Yellow line, then yes, War Chant would be superior, but not faaaar superior.
    Except no matter what line you pick you always pick warchant deep... It's far superior aggro skill.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    Well, the skill is not OP at all. Shield Smash and Sweeping Cut have shorter cooldowns and deal more damage. What you should do instead is buff Vexing Blow and Whirling Retaliation by increasing its maximum targets to like 8 - 10.
    I suggest you ask the players whether they think the skill is OP or not before you make that decision... they are usually honest.
    Shield Smash requires a chain of shield abilities before you can use shield smash and it's effect is melee range and in a cone in front of you. Sweeping Cut also needs to be in melee range, in front of you. War Chant is by far the best agro ability we have outside of a force taunt, it is not just the damage, the debuff it places is a significant mitigation boon and debuffs generate a lot of threat and it can hit mobs in 360 degrees, with demoralizing anthem it is a significant area, it is the best tanking tool we have that is outside of blue spec.

    I think shield smash with all the legacies that scale the damage, from Area of Effect Damage (58.4%), Shield Damage (45.4%) and Shield Smash Damage (73.0%) then scale the damage off the melee weapon instead of the belt and benefit from a striking rune which hasn't been nerfed when combined with a significant amount of physical mastery you can hit way too hard. There are too many things which scale the damage when in a dps spec, however, the damage is not great in tank builds.

    War Chant damage looks okay in tank builds, it is higher than it was before 22.2.2, but not OP in a tank build. War Chant is high damage in a dps build, you would need to take everything that scales it to maximise the damage, in my AE damage build that goes down yellow to 6/6 Strong Bursts the damage seem too strong, however, the opportunity cost is you sacrifice a lot of the bleed and single target damage you have to achieve those AE numbers, both in terms of the trait tree and in terms of legacies.

    I think Guardian has a really nice AE rotation, a lot of classes have poor options when it comes to AE abilities, I like the feel of the Guardian toolkit and hope that doesn't change. I think it is the number of stacking legacies combined with extreme dps stats, every AE ability benefits from Area Effect Skill Damage, Reactive Parry Damage scales most of the non-shield abilities, then they have their own legacy so tend to have at least 3 legacies which scale their damage. These do not seem problematic with low physical mastery but the multiplicative effect scales too well with high dps stats.

    I think perhaps if you tweak the numbers so they keep their decent base damage and slightly reduce the way they scale then it will be in a better place, a big problem before the guardian balance was that there was almost no significant damage difference between gear tiers, it didn't give much incentive to upgrade outside of major gear changes, if the scaling is reduce too much it might have that feel about it, but I think at present the AE abilities do too much damage in dps builds.
    Last edited by Zvim666; Jun 14 2018 at 12:01 PM.

 

 

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