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  1. #1
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    Story related question(s)

    Hi,
    I have gone through entire game with 7 of my alts so far and yet I have few blind spots in the story I still don't understand. I am Czech so English isn't my native language, so I might have missed something...

    1) Volume III, book III - Echoes of the Dead
    There is an old dwarf Nár in Thror's Coomb. I presume it is the same Nár who went to Moria with Thrór and witnessed how Azog killed Thrór which started a war between dwarves and orcs. Although, if it is really him, he must be really VERY old. Anyway what I don't get, is HOW could Nár know what had Elrond told his sons Elladan and Elrohir as message for Aragorn (about the Paths of the Dead). Rangers are concerned about that but after unfortunate mistake with Forsaken Road they just let it go. They only find out that good Nár told everything to Saruman, because he didnt know about his betrayal. But how Nár got this information in the first place is mystery for me. What am I missing?

    2) Volume III, book XII - War in the Westemnet
    Basically all book 12 is about you, Nona, Horn and Corudan chasing traitor of Rohan. First you found several bad people in Edoras, then you go to Broadcares and Stonedeans, but you actually never find him. So who is he? And what happend to him? Is this the same traitor who killed one of the Riders Four in Helm's Deep?

    Thx.
    Last edited by Enthrone; Jun 11 2018 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #2
    It's been a long time since I did those quests and I'm sure someone else can provide more precise answers but have a look at those threads:

    - Nar -> https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Game-Spoilers
    - Rohan traitor -> https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...aitor-in-Rohan

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    There is an old dwarf Nár in Thror's Coomb. I presume it is the same Nár would went to Moria with Thrór and witnessed how Azog killed Thrór which started a war between dwarves and orcs. Although, if it is really him, he must be really VERY old. Anyway what I don't get, is HOW could Nár know what had Elrond told his sons Elladan and Elrohir as message for Aragorn (about the Paths of the Dead). Rangers are concerned about that but after unfortunate mistake with Forsaken Road they just let it go. They only find out that good Nár told everything to Saruman, because he didnt know about his betrayal. But how Nár got this information in the first place is mystery for me. What am I missing?

    From Saruman, as we learn in the Chapter 11: Grief and Insight.

    <name>: 'How do you know Elrond's words?'

    Nár: 'I did not know the words of Elrond were a secret. My friend knew of them, and spoke at length concerning the futility of traversing the Paths of the Dead.'

    Nâr breathes deeply of the strange-smelling brew, and he smiles quizzically at you.

    Nár: 'He sees much that perhaps should have remained hidden, it's true; but when he speaks of a thing I confess it seems foolhardy to disagree or debate with him on it. He has a curious way about him, this friend I met in the mines. I thought it strange to see him there, but he said Herluf brought him down.'

    Nâr's brow creases in thought.

    Nár: 'But that's odd. Herluf went south to Zigil-jabâl and hasn't been here for years. I wonder when he let my friend into the mines?'

    <name>: 'He can't have.'

    <name>: 'Who did you meet in the mines?'

    Nár looks at you with amusement; clearly he thinks you have said something funny.

    Nár: 'Why Saruman the White, of course. I thought you knew.'


    Full story: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Que...ef_and_Insight

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    2) Volume III, book XII - War in the Westemnet
    Basically all book 12 is about you, Nona, Horn and Corudan chasing traitor of Rohan. First you found several bad people in Edoras, then you go to Broadcares and Stonedeans, but you actually never find him. So who is he? And what happend to him? Is this the same traitor who killed one of the Riders Four in Helm's Deep?
    I think that one was actually never resolved? Maybe someone else know more about it

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirhaen View Post
    From Saruman, as we learn in the Chapter 11: Grief and Insight.

    <name>: 'How do you know Elrond's words?'

    Nár: 'I did not know the words of Elrond were a secret. My friend knew of them, and spoke at length concerning the futility of traversing the Paths of the Dead.'

    Nâr breathes deeply of the strange-smelling brew, and he smiles quizzically at you.

    Nár: 'He sees much that perhaps should have remained hidden, it's true; but when he speaks of a thing I confess it seems foolhardy to disagree or debate with him on it. He has a curious way about him, this friend I met in the mines. I thought it strange to see him there, but he said Herluf brought him down.'

    Nâr's brow creases in thought.

    Nár: 'But that's odd. Herluf went south to Zigil-jabâl and hasn't been here for years. I wonder when he let my friend into the mines?'

    <name>: 'He can't have.'

    <name>: 'Who did you meet in the mines?'

    Nár looks at you with amusement; clearly he thinks you have said something funny.

    Nár: 'Why Saruman the White, of course. I thought you knew.'


    Full story: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Que...ef_and_Insight
    Yeah, I am aware of this conversation but it actually brings more questions:

    a) how would Saruman know words of Elrond? I prefume they weren't said publicly (because if they were, why would be Grey Company suprised that someone else knows them?). So I don't understand how could anyone but Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir (and perhaps Halbarad as leader of the rangers) possibly know them.

    b) why would Saruman talk to the old dwarf in the first place? I know Nár was once mighty and respected dwarf. It just doesn't make sense to me, why would Saruman need Nár for anything, especially at his current state of mind.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirhaen View Post
    I think that one was actually never resolved? Maybe someone else know more about it
    So I did little research and thx to kudurru1's links (thank you m8) I found this post of MadeOfLions (February the 4th 2015):

    I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

    MoL
    So it seems it really was never resolved...

    Although... There is a guy called Brodwulf in instance Honour and Treachery on the Pellenor Fields. He is a traitor who killed Léofdag (one of the Riders Four) in Helm's Deep. He is with this villain Crúmgam who we know from East Rohan (Snowbourn) storyline. Could this Brodwulf be the very traitor we are looking for?

    Well, it seems unlikely to me because the traitor of Edoras worked for Wormtongue, which means he worked for Saruman. This Brodwulf however worked for Crúmgam, who it seems worked for Sauron himself. And Saruman and Sauron were never exactly true "allias" in the way that they would have shared their servants. It might be possible that Crúmgam and Brodwulf originaly worked for Saruman and after his defeat they joined Sauron but it is, you know... too complicated. :-)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    Yeah, I am aware of this conversation but it actually brings more questions:

    a) how would Saruman know words of Elrond? I prefume they weren't said publicly (because if they were, why would be Grey Company suprised that someone else knows them?). So I don't understand how could anyone but Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir (and perhaps Halbarad as leader of the rangers) possibly know them.

    b) why would Saruman talk to the old dwarf in the first place? I know Nár was once mighty and respected dwarf. It just doesn't make sense to me, why would Saruman need Nár for anything, especially at his current state of mind.
    a) Saruman has a fully functioning Pallantir, and the skills to use it properly.

    b) Saruman was playing the long game, and anything that might slow the small army of Dunedain down before they got into his core schemes was worth a little effort. Not to mention Nar had a really nifty library (potentially including lore from just north in Mirobel), and access to a dwarf mine full of exotic materials. Both of which might be useful in his long term quest to Forge A Ring of his own.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    Yeah, I am aware of this conversation but it actually brings more questions:

    a) how would Saruman know words of Elrond? I prefume they weren't said publicly (because if they were, why would be Grey Company suprised that someone else knows them?). So I don't understand how could anyone but Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir (and perhaps Halbarad as leader of the rangers) possibly know them.
    I am not sure if we ever get to know that for sure. My guess is palantir, though could have been other ways... Remember he was a member of the White Council and head of the Order of Wizards before his doings were discovered, and his spies were everywhere. After all, he was very wise, his knowledge was great. That is to say, he could have even guessed.

    My bet is on palantir though, given what Nar also said: 'He sees much that perhaps should have remained hidden, it's true (palantir hint); but when he speaks of a thing I confess it seems foolhardy to disagree or debate with him on it (Saruman's most notable power was his voice, which held an extraordinary power of persuasion).

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    b) why would Saruman talk to the old dwarf in the first place? I know Nár was once mighty and respected dwarf. It just doesn't make sense to me, why would Saruman need Nár for anything, especially at his current state of mind.
    It is exactly Nar's state of mind working in Saruman's favor. Zudrugund at Nár's Peak is actually an ancient library, tended by Nár and Frithgeir. No doubt Saruman was searching for some info from the library. Again, from Nar: 'He was very interested in the Rangers, of course, and in the Dunlendings who live nearby. He wanted any maps of cave systems and dwarf-mines I could bring him from the library...'

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    So I did little research and thx to kudurru1's links (thank you m8) I found this post of MadeOfLions (February the 4th 2015):

    So it seems it really was never resolved...

    Although... There is a guy called Brodwulf in instance Honour and Treachery on the Pellenor Fields. He is a traitor who killed Léofdag (one of the Riders Four) in Helm's Deep. He is with this villain Crúmgam who we know from East Rohan (Snowbourn) storyline. Could this Brodwulf be the very traitor we are looking for?

    Well, it seems unlikely to me because the traitor of Edoras worked for Wormtongue, which means he worked for Saruman. This Brodwulf however worked for Crúmgam, who it seems worked for Sauron himself. And Saruman and Sauron were never exactly true "allias" in the way that they would have shared their servants. It might be possible that Crúmgam and Brodwulf originaly worked for Saruman and after his defeat they joined Sauron but it is, you know... too complicated. :-)
    Yes and well half of the fun is sometimes just musing on the subject Have to check that link, thanks for the info

  10. #10
    SPOILERS- of course! For the case of the missing Traitor in Rohan specifically-











    I'm not sure if its -THE- traitor per se. But everyone here seems to be forgetting the Bingo Boffin line created especially by MoL.

    Alright. When the Bingo Boffin storyline reaches the Norcrofts, Bingo assists a Shield-Maiden in hunting-down "The Order of the Red Eye." There's yet another such pendant found between two tents behind the Norcrofts' Cliving Mead-Hall. It turns into a hunt that heads up and all over Wildermore. It ends at the Lonely Height where the craban are in Wildermore's northwest.

    It's implied that ---someone--- left one of the mysterious pendants behind. The corpse of the Rohirric man in Wildermore -has- one of the pendants. However: the dead traitor has the EXACT appearance of the same traitor encountered in Stoke: the orange Rohirric armor with the same shaggy blond hair and beard. Exactly identical.




    Which tells me something. MoL still left it as partially unresolved. I think I can piece it together. The dead traitor in Wildermore must be the same from the Epic- unless MoL would like to jump-in and confirm otherwise. There's three pendants involved: 1 in the Epic, the one that's found in Cliving (which, it is noted, also looks near-identical to the Rothstone, a Dourhand artifact!!!!!! So there's a Dourhand connection here too, potentially an Angmar one), and the third pendant is found by the corpse in northwestern Wildermore.


    So, then. I have a theory: someone gave our Traitor a new pendant shortly before he realized that a hunt was underway and had to flee to Wildermore. Someone left that third pendant behind in Cliving (a ruse to try to throw-us off the trail? An accident?).

    Would LOVE it if now, years later from the 2015 thread someone linked-to: if MoL would kindly shed light on this or at least indicate whether or not they'll be more to this story-thread in later content Might be worth looking-into with all the Gurzyul running-around even- per the announcement of U23 extending the Black Book further- as far as the Grey Mountains (***not far from Framburg, the original homeland of the Eotheod who became the Rohirrim!!!!!***).
    Last edited by Phantion; Jun 11 2018 at 09:48 PM.
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

    .

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seschat View Post
    a) Saruman has a fully functioning Pallantir, and the skills to use it properly.
    Sorry guys, but I just can't accept this easy Pallantir explanation. Yeah, all-seeing stones are mighty tools indeed. And Saruman is very powerful lord of very strong mind. But I really doubt he has the power to use his Pallantir for listening to distant conversations. It just doesn't work like that.

    Saruman's spies in Eriador had surely informed him about gathering of Dunadain in the north and since then he was tracking ranger's movements closely but it still doesn't explain how he knows EXACTLY the words of Elrond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seschat View Post
    b) Saruman was playing the long game, and anything that might slow the small army of Dunedain down before they got into his core schemes was worth a little effort. Not to mention Nar had a really nifty library (potentially including lore from just north in Mirobel), and access to a dwarf mine full of exotic materials. Both of which might be useful in his long term quest to Forge A Ring of his own.
    Hmm, it actually makes sense. So he told Nár about Paths of the Dead to make rangers stay longer in Enedwaith. OK, let's agree with that. :-)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantion View Post
    SPOILERS- of course! For the case of the missing Traitor in Rohan specifically-

    I'm not sure if its -THE- traitor per se. But everyone here seems to be forgetting the Bingo Boffin line created especially by MoL.

    Alright. When the Bingo Boffin storyline reaches the Norcrofts, Bingo assists a Shield-Maiden in hunting-down "The Order of the Red Eye." There's yet another such pendant found between two tents behind the Norcrofts' Cliving Mead-Hall. It turns into a hunt that heads up and all over Wildermore. It ends at the Lonely Height where the craban are in Wildermore's northwest.

    It's implied that ---someone--- left one of the mysterious pendants behind. The corpse of the Rohirric man in Wildermore -has- one of the pendants. However: the dead traitor has the EXACT appearance of the same traitor encountered in Stoke: the orange Rohirric armor with the same shaggy blond hair and beard. Exactly identical.

    Which tells me something. MoL still left it as partially unresolved. I think I can piece it together. The dead traitor in Wildermore must be the same from the Epic- unless MoL would like to jump-in and confirm otherwise. There's three pendants involved: 1 in the Epic, the one that's found in Cliving (which, it is noted, also looks near-identical to the Rothstone, a Dourhand artifact!!!!!! So there's a Dourhand connection here too, potentially an Angmar one), and the third pendant is found by the corpse in northwestern Wildermore.

    So, then. I have a theory: someone gave our Traitor a new pendant shortly before he realized that a hunt was underway and had to flee to Wildermore. Someone left that third pendant behind in Cliving (a ruse to try to throw-us off the trail? An accident?).

    Would LOVE it if now, years later from the 2015 thread someone linked-to: if MoL would kindly shed light on this or at least indicate whether or not they'll be more to this story-thread in later content Might be worth looking-into with all the Gurzyul running-around even- per the announcement of U23 extending the Black Book further- as far as the Grey Mountains (***not far from Framburg, the original homeland of the Eotheod who became the Rohirrim!!!!!***).
    Oh, I totally forgot about Bingo. It's been a while I did those quests but I do remember the Order of the Red Eye storyline.

    Well, I guess the Edoras traitor might be member of the Order but we still don't know if the dead man in Wildermore is him. I wouldn't do much from his appearance because most of the Rohirrim look alike.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthrone View Post
    Sorry guys, but I just can't accept this easy Pallantir explanation. Yeah, all-seeing stones are mighty tools indeed. And Saruman is very powerful lord of very strong mind. But I really doubt he has the power to use his Pallantir for listening to distant conversations. It just doesn't work like that.
    Palantir is a powerful crystalline globe that enabled their users to witness events and communicate with one another over great distances. It is exceptionally powerful scrying tool. That being said, and even in the worst case scenario, it was enough if he saw a glimpse of something to connect dots

  14. #14
    This is just my speculation and is a mixture of JRRT's books and things in the game. There are some very real gaps where I don't think anyone can say for certain how particular details are connected by the characters involved.

    1: During the time of King Arvedui of Arthedain (the last part of Arnor to fall), there was a seer called Malbeth at Arvedui's court. It was Malbeth who prophesised that an heir to Isuldur would enter the Paths of the Dead and have the dead oathbreakers fulfil their oath to fight against Sauron.

    2: The White Council did not know for certain that the Necromancer of Dol Guldor was Sauron until they attacked him there in year 2941 of the 3rd Age at the same time that Bilbo and Thorin's company were travelling to Erebor. Sauron escaped the attack of the White Council but the council now knew Sauron was still in Middle Earth and given time would be able to rebuild an army.

    So, how does Saruman learn about Aragorn? Saruman was head of the White Council and was trusted by the other members of the council until Gandalf escaped from Saruman's attempt to imprison him at Isengard in year 3018 of the 3rd Age. There's a 77 year gap between discovering that the Necromancer is Sauron and Saruman openly going rogue by trying to imprison Gandalf. Would the White Council just sit on their hands all that time and do nothing after discovering that Sauron is still around, or would they have discussed ways to deal with Sauron among themselves?

    JRRT doesn't say anything definitive about this, but I think it's reasonable to assume that the White Council would have discussed some information about Sauron during those 77 years. The council doesn't have to officially meet in person to do this, they can all read and write and send messages to each other. Elrond is a member of the White Council and has the closest connection to the Dunedain out of all the members of the White Council (Aragorn is a direct descendent of Elrond's brother Elros), and Elrond knew about Malbeth's prophecy (Elrond gave a message for Aragorn to the Grey Company, reminding Aragorn of the prophecy). It's possible that Elrond mentioned this prophecy to the other members of the White Council, including Saruman, before Saruman went rogue, or Saruman may have found a book or document about the prophecy from somewhere, perhaps from Gondor's archives. We do know Saruman had visited the Gondor archives. At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf mentions a particular scroll in the archives that describes the One Ring, personally written by Isildur, that both Saruman and Gandalf had (seperately) examined.

    Looking at the dialog text of the Vol 3 Book 2 instance An Echo of Days Past, Nar mentions details of the prophecy and correctly identifies Elladan as a "son of Elrond" but does not name Aragorn (unless I missed that in the dialog text), and Nar says that he got that information from Saruman. Nar is somewhat senile and may not be able to definitively tell Elladan and Elrohir (Elrond's two sons) apart, but the only elves in the Grey Company are both sons of Elrond, so if Saruman had told Nar about the Grey Company then any elf that turns up on Nar's doorstep with some rangers is going to be a "son of Elrond". This means Saruman has fairly good information about who is in the Grey Company, but there is no clear indication of where he got that information from. Saruman is extremely unlikely to have a spy in Rivendell, although some 3rd party web sites mention that Saruman does have helpers around Bree and perhaps may have someone near the rangers in the North Downs. In the book, Barliman Butterbur mentions a ranger camp at a place he calls Deadmen's Dike (near the ruins of Fornost) when he mentions who the rangers are to the fellowship hobbits at the Prancing Pony Inn. If Barliman knows where the rangers can be found in the North Downs, other people in Bree will also know it. That still doesn't explain how Saruman knows about Elladan and Elrohir being in the Grey Company unless they are seen travelling with the Grey Company by someone who knows who they are and is loyal to Saruman. The easiest answer is Saruman uses his palantir to watch the Grey Company and identifies Elrond's sons himself, after being tipped off that a significant group of rangers is heading south.

    So, assuming Saruman knows about Malbeth's prophecy (which he does in the game but it's not clearly stated in the book that I remember), he knows that an heir to Isildur exists. Looking at the line of Kings for Arnor, he could trace Isildur's descendents clearly as far as Arvedui. Whether he has reliable information on the family tree after Arvedui is a harder argument to make. Elrond may have given Saruman that information while he was still considered trustworthy, but we can't say that definitively. Saruman knowing about Elrond's sons is an easier argument to make since Elrond and Saruman were both on the White Council, and the fact that Elrond had two sons would not be some kind of secret.

    The short version, it's a small leap to have Saruman know about the prophecy and be able to make some educated deductions based on what the prophecy says. It's a bigger leap to have Saruman know the identity of Aragorn as Isildur's heir and about the Grey Company, who is in it and what their purpose is. We have to indulge in a certain amount of speculation to connect these details because there is no concrete answer about some of these details using what JRRT actually wrote. In other words, the game devs take some known facts from the book and invent some connections between those details to create game content for us to play, but there are still gaps between some details that have no official answer based on what is written in the book.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethB View Post
    This is just my speculation and is a mixture of JRRT's books and things in the game. There are some very real gaps where I don't think anyone can say for certain how particular details are connected by the characters involved.
    Nice post.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seschat View Post
    a) Saruman has a fully functioning Pallantir, and the skills to use it properly.

    b) Saruman was playing the long game, and anything that might slow the small army of Dunedain down before they got into his core schemes was worth a little effort. Not to mention Nar had a really nifty library (potentially including lore from just north in Mirobel), and access to a dwarf mine full of exotic materials. Both of which might be useful in his long term quest to Forge A Ring of his own.
    And in addition to this, Saruman spent a lot of time gathering information from all parts of Middle Earth. Yeah, Gandalf dabbled in Hobbit lore, but Saruman took intelligence gathering to a whole new level. He watched Sauron, and got secrets from both Elrond and Treebeard.

    Elrond mentioned it at the Council meeting and Treebeard was complaining that Saruman got information from him and returned nothing.


    So yeah, it's very plausible that Saruman had inside information.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GarethB View Post
    JRRT doesn't say anything definitive about this, but I think it's reasonable to assume that the White Council would have discussed some information about Sauron during those 77 years. The council doesn't have to officially meet in person to do this, they can all read and write and send messages to each other. Elrond is a member of the White Council and has the closest connection to the Dunedain out of all the members of the White Council (Aragorn is a direct descendent of Elrond's brother Elros), and Elrond knew about Malbeth's prophecy (Elrond gave a message for Aragorn to the Grey Company, reminding Aragorn of the prophecy). It's possible that Elrond mentioned this prophecy to the other members of the White Council, including Saruman, before Saruman went rogue, or Saruman may have found a book or document about the prophecy from somewhere, perhaps from Gondor's archives. We do know Saruman had visited the Gondor archives. At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf mentions a particular scroll in the archives that describes the One Ring, personally written by Isildur, that both Saruman and Gandalf had (seperately) examined.
    Nice read. I would add that we tend to forget sometimes that we speak of actual witnesses of so many important events. Saruman arrived in about the year III 1000. By the time of the Council, Elrond had dwelt in the Middle-earth for some 6,500 years already. I want to say, they and quite a few other characters didn't even need to find some info in scrolls, they lived in the times we speak about here and were sometimes closely connected with events, meaning times of Arvedui and later Isildur, among others.

    Yet another trivia that we could connect to the story is a fact that Elladan and Elrohir are twins and it is said that only few could tell them apart. They were members of the both White Council and the Council of Elrond.

 

 

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