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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I have another question on a different part of warden: why not change the trait that gives defiant challenge mits to just raw % mit or completely remove mits from DC and give the 10% mits as passive mits. I mean having to build up your defences by using an AOE forced taunt all the time even if you don't need aggro could go wrong in so many ways. Maybe move the mits into shield tactics/shield mastery. I just don't see the point on having 100% uptime +5% mits but only if you spam an aoe taunt even when not needed.
    I see logic in having a fixed amount of mitigations that come from shield mastery, and some that are added with DC to scale
    on the number of mobs. Wardens are supposed to shine with multi-mob fights, so having a portion that scales seems rational.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    I see logic in having a fixed amount of mitigations that come from shield mastery, and some that are added with DC to scale
    on the number of mobs. Wardens are supposed to shine with multi-mob fights, so having a portion that scales seems rational.
    Where in the class lore and/or class description does it say Warden's are supposed to shine in any specific environment? It doesn't. It's this misguided idea that Warden Tanks are supposed to fit different roles than Guardians that have hindered them post Helms Deep. Before Trait Trees, Wardens were a bread and butter tank class. They could do everything relating to Tanking as well or better than Guardians and only had minor difficulty with spikey damage. There is no reason to say "Warden's are AoE Tanks" all that does is pigeonhole Warden's into a very situational role. Treat them like Guardian's and give them a proper toolkit to deal with modern instance mechanics. Stop trying to make them DPS tanks, or debuff Tanks, or avoidance Tanks. Fit them to the instances that are being designed, and make them have a higher skill ceiling and slightly more versatility than Guardian's.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Where in the class lore and/or class description does it say Warden's are supposed to shine in any specific environment? It doesn't. It's this misguided idea that Warden Tanks are supposed to fit different roles than Guardians that have hindered them post Helms Deep. Before Trait Trees, Wardens were a bread and butter tank class. They could do everything relating to Tanking as well or better than Guardians and only had minor difficulty with spikey damage. There is no reason to say "Warden's are AoE Tanks" all that does is pigeonhole Warden's into a very situational role. Treat them like Guardian's and give them a proper toolkit to deal with modern instance mechanics. Stop trying to make them DPS tanks, or debuff Tanks, or avoidance Tanks. Fit them to the instances that are being designed, and make them have a higher skill ceiling and slightly more versatility than Guardian's.

    It is not misguided. You are uninformed. No "cooky" today.
    It does not surprise me though because it has been a long time since the Warden arrived.

    The Warden was not an original class in Lotro. When the Warden came out it was advertised as
    a class that was adept at keeping multiple enemies at bay.

    Historically Wardens have been great tanks, and esp at AOE.

    That fact has nothing to do with whether the Warden should have the proper
    tools to tank. Any Warden wants that, but they are different than guards.

    Now you know.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    It is not misguided. You are uninformed. No "cooky" today.
    It does not surprise me though because it has been a long time since the Warden arrived.

    The Warden was not an original class in Lotro. When the Warden came out it was advertised as
    a class that was adept at keeping multiple enemies at bay.

    Historically Wardens have been great tanks, and esp at AOE.

    That fact has nothing to do with whether the Warden should have the proper
    tools to tank. Any Warden wants that, but they are different than guards.

    Now you know.
    I've been playing the class since the day it was introduced to Live servers. I pre ordered Mines of Moria and the Warden was my first class. There was no advertising about Warden's being AoE tanks. Many players complained that there were too few options for Tanking and Healing classes during SoA. Thus, Turbine answered this call by creating the Runekeeper and Warden. RK's were primarily healers upon their introduction to Moria. They were capable of doing moderate dps but weren't comparable to Hunters. Wardens were much the same in that they functioned in almost all Tanking situations equally to a Guardian. However the Warden was created with a focus on self-sustaining tanking style. Really, the only major difference between a Warden tank and a Guardian tank at level 60 was that Warden's, when played well, could tank much more easily without a healer than a Guardian could. There was nothing said about creating a Tank class that would specialize In AoE Tanking. From a design standpoint that's a completely ludicrous idea because it forces the class into a very situational role that is rarely valuable.

    By the way, notice how my Forum account was created before yours? Don't try to give me a history lesson in LotRO. I've been here for longer than 90% of players on this forum account and it's not even the first one I created.

  5. #30
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    My Warden is only level 30, but I don't think it's viable to split the tanking role and have two classes that aren't able to do both halves of the role.

    In Moria wardens were much better at self healing, kite tanking, threat generation, threat range. Since then the mitigation gap has become a chasm and guards have caught up in most of the areas they were behind. Wardens still have good dps for solo, but their group role is poorly defined.

    Buffing self heals would be bodge repair, because it won't scale well from Duo to Raid. What they need to do is address the mitigation issue head on.

    In my opinion , Guards and Wards' trait lines should be organised as follows -

    Blue Line - Boss Tanking. Mits, Panic Buttons

    Yellow - Off Tanking. Self Heals, AOE Threat, Kite Tanking, Threat Generation vs multiple ranged mobs

    Red - DPS


    The Guardian trait tree used to be organised a bit like this - Blue for boss tanking, giving crit defence and the best mits. Yellow line was offtanking, better aoe threat.

    Now it's just "Blue = tanking, Red = DPS" and yellow is somewhere in between DPS and tanking. We aren't really forced to choose between mits/panic buttons and AOE/Range threat gen.

    So, I reckon they should redesign the Warden blue line so when specced heavily in to it, they can get Guard mits and panic buttons. For balance, that should imply a loss of self healing and ranged threat generation. That way both guards and wards can cover each tanking subrole. If you want to maintain distinctiveness (beyond the completely different way the skills work) , a full blue guard should probably make slightly less sacrifices in other areas ditto for a warden in full yellow, if you want to maintain the idea that a Guard's natural role is main tanking and a Ward's is offtanking.

    Of course we're both competing against Cappys for the MT spot and Champs for OT, something to bear in mind.
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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    I've been playing the class since the day it was introduced to Live servers. I pre ordered Mines of Moria and the Warden was my first class. There was no advertising about Warden's being AoE tanks. Many players complained that there were too few options for Tanking and Healing classes during SoA. Thus, Turbine answered this call by creating the Runekeeper and Warden. RK's were primarily healers upon their introduction to Moria. They were capable of doing moderate dps but weren't comparable to Hunters. Wardens were much the same in that they functioned in almost all Tanking situations equally to a Guardian. However the Warden was created with a focus on self-sustaining tanking style. Really, the only major difference between a Warden tank and a Guardian tank at level 60 was that Warden's, when played well, could tank much more easily without a healer than a Guardian could. There was nothing said about creating a Tank class that would specialize In AoE Tanking. From a design standpoint that's a completely ludicrous idea because it forces the class into a very situational role that is rarely valuable.

    By the way, notice how my Forum account was created before yours? Don't try to give me a history lesson in LotRO. I've been here for longer than 90% of players on this forum account and it's not even the first one I created.

    You seem prone to jumping to conclusions. I played before joining, but a join date does not mean anyone actually knows something.

    You state that the warden was YOUR FIRST class. There was no Warden when I started.
    (Hopefully a light bulb just turned on)

    Early-on the Warden had seemingly unlimited AOE moral leach and a threat leach component with conviction. This made them super
    at AOE aggro, and scaled heals - matching their advertised description. If you did not experience those days you may just see the
    Warden the same as a Guard.

    There were times when tanking a boss that the Warden would prefer to have a few extra adds remain alive in the mix because it
    allowed for more moral leaching. For the Guard that is not so helpful.

    IMO being great at tanking multiple mobs is NOT "a ludicrous idea" as you say, it is often useful in the game and it does not
    mean the Warden is worse than a guard at single target.

    You should spend your effort on explaining why you think being good at tanking multiple mobs is "a ludicrous idea" or why you
    think it is "a very situational role". Multiple mobs are as frequent as single targets, and they are after all, a group of single targets.
    So, if you can tank several, you can tank one.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    You seem prone to jumping to conclusions. I played before joining, but a join date does not mean anyone actually knows something.

    You state that the warden was YOUR FIRST class. There was no Warden when I started.
    (Hopefully a light bulb just turned on)

    Early-on the Warden had seemingly unlimited AOE moral leach and a threat leach component with conviction. This made them super
    at AOE aggro, and scaled heals - matching their advertised description. If you did not experience those days you may just see the
    Warden the same as a Guard.

    There were times when tanking a boss that the Warden would prefer to have a few extra adds remain alive in the mix because it
    allowed for more moral leaching. For the Guard that is not so helpful.

    IMO being great at tanking multiple mobs is NOT "a ludicrous idea" as you say, it is often useful in the game and it does not
    mean the Warden is worse than a guard at single target.

    You should spend your effort on explaining why you think being good at tanking multiple mobs is "a ludicrous idea" or why you
    think it is "a very situational role". Multiple mobs are as frequent as single targets, and they are after all, a group of single targets.
    So, if you can tank several, you can tank one.
    Okay then let me make some corrections. Conviction never had a threat leech component. There used to be specific skills that acted as threat leech skills. Aggression was the first skill introduced with a threat leech component and subsequent skills were also added with this effect at level 75 and 85. Conviction has always been an AoE Fellowship heal with a small threat over time generation mechanic. Additionally, all Warden aggro mechanics were initially threat over time abilities.

    So for specific examples of where making the Warden an AoE tank doesn't work. Sagrog T2C, the 2nd boss in the Abyss raid. Warden's before update 22.2 could tank the adds in this fight. However. Due to the mitigation gap, they were incapable of Tanking Sagrog himself, regardless of gear level, group composition, or individual skill. This is a classic example of how giving Warden's an AoE specific survival skill in the form of Defiant Challenge scaling mitigation hinders the class in Single Target situations. Whereas a Guardian and a Captain are able to perform both roles, off tank or main tank, Warden's are rendered incapable of doing so. These examples extend back as far as Durchest in BG when it was first introduced. The fact that Warden's lacked single target survivability vs cooldowns and equal mitigation to Heavy Tank classes make it so that certain unavoidable special attacks are often one shot abilities, rendering Warden's incapable Tanks in single target fights.

    Now, you've demanded specific examples from me as to why giving Warden's abilities that make them AoE specific tanks doesnt work. I've provided two examples and could easily provide more. Yet, you still haven't provided any specific examples as to why Warden's should excel in AoE fights and fall behind in Single Target fights. There really aren't any in LotRO's modern instances. All of the difficult situations Warden's face won't be remedied through giving them scaling mitigation for extra targets, or greater healing for extra targets. The issue is that Warden's get 1 shot even with 250k morale when a Guardian or Captain would take upwards of 30% less damage.

    The only solution is to either make boss special attacks able to be B/P/E and give Wardens back their edge as avoidance based Tanks, this is the least likely solution as it would require big changes to both Captain and Guardian ranking. Or, they could give Warden's similar cooldowns to Guardians and Captains that are effective in both single target and AoE fights. What a solution would not look like would be to give us DC scaling mits back. Being able to mitigate 90% of damage with 60% uptime in a fight with 5 or more targets IS very situational. Any time you're facing less than 5 targets as a Warden tank(this is the majority of Raid boss fights), you're severely gimped compared to Guardians and Captains. So I say again, how is focusing Warden's around tanking multiple targets NOT counterproductive to balancing Tank classes?
    Last edited by gaara908776; Jun 14 2018 at 06:02 PM.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post

    ... you still haven't provided any specific examples as to why Warden's should excel in AoE fights and fall behind in Single Target fights....

    Yes! I meant aggression not conviction. Things went downhill for the warden when that was lost.
    Anyway, a couple things...

    1) Why do you say this:

    "you still haven't provided any specific examples as to why Warden's should excel in AoE fights and fall behind in Single Target fights"

    I never said Wardens should fall behind in Single Target fights. It seems like a conclusion you jumped to - Why?
    (I could give you reasons why they excel in AOE, but you know that- right?)

    2) Your reasoning against the Warden as an AOE tank really has nothing to do with being an AOE tank!
    You want the Warden to be viable single target tank. Just say that - instead of muddling it with an anti-AOE argument.

    Being a good AOE tank is NOT in opposition to single target! Since DC is an AOE aggro skill is makes sense that it should
    add scaling mit based on the number of targets it hits. What needs to be DEVELOPED is an effective way to mitigate/avoid big hits.
    There is no reason to look to DC for that.

    Problems arise for the Warden with big damage pulses that may 1-shot, or that he may not have time to recover from before more
    damage finishes him off. For this reason an emergency 1-click may be a solution; but the gambit system is a unique part of the Warden
    and adding too many clicky skills dilutes it. I would like to see the Warden remain primarily a gambit user.

    One possible solution could be something like reducing the CD on Never Surrender to 2 minutes and have it add +10% mits for 30
    seconds when it triggers -- or something like that.

    Also, the time it takes the Warden to do things is a big factor in tanking. Contrast other tanks who click 1 button for a skill, with the
    Warden who will need to click 3-5 buttons. The effects of lag and just whatever keypress software delays are currently in the system
    multiplies problems for the Warden. I would like to see gambit builders operate faster so we can respond better to situations.

  9. #34
    JLotro: "One possible solution could be something like reducing the CD on Never Surrender to 2 minutes and have it add +10% mits for 30
    seconds when it triggers -- or something like that."

    Hm, another interesting idea. I would prefer more mits (or reduced damage by % maybe even better), shorter duration and let cd of never surrender as it is... (But still far better would be clickable/usable freely, ie change "for the free poeople"...)

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post

    So for specific examples of where making the Warden an AoE tank doesn't work. Sagrog T2C, the 2nd boss in the Abyss raid. Warden's before update 22.2 could tank the adds in this fight. However. Due to the mitigation gap, they were incapable of Tanking Sagrog himself, regardless of gear level, group composition, or individual skill. This is a classic example of how giving Warden's an AoE specific survival skill in the form of Defiant Challenge scaling mitigation hinders the class in Single Target situations. Whereas a Guardian and a Captain are able to perform both roles, off tank or main tank, Warden's are rendered incapable of doing so. These examples extend back as far as Durchest in BG when it was first introduced. The fact that Warden's lacked single target survivability vs cooldowns and equal mitigation to Heavy Tank classes make it so that certain unavoidable special attacks are often one shot abilities, rendering Warden's incapable Tanks in single target fights.
    This is nonsense. We had warden tank the boss before update. Was non issue. Wasnt even wearing that good of a gear.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    This is nonsense. We had warden tank the boss before update. Was non issue. Wasnt even wearing that good of a gear.
    I would love to se a video of that. Guards/captains were getting nearly 70-80k hits from time to time, that translated into around 110-130k damage on pre update warden, warden must have had around 180k morale min to be viable boss tank and still taken per second would be ridiculously high.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    This is nonsense. We had warden tank the boss before update. Was non issue. Wasnt even wearing that good of a gear.
    Oh yeah? Always love the grandiose claims you make with no substantiated evidence, Siiperi. Tell me then how you dealt with the hits every few seconds of upwards of 150k? Can't wait to hear your genius response to this one

    /sarcasm off

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I would love to se a video of that. Guards/captains were getting nearly 70-80k hits from time to time, that translated into around 110-130k damage on pre update warden, warden must have had around 180k morale min to be viable boss tank and still taken per second would be ridiculously high.
    There likely is no video of it because it wasn't possible. I had 225k morale in raid with capped mits before update 22.2 and was still in 1 shot range for some of Sagrog's combos.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    There likely is no video of it because it wasn't possible. I had 225k morale in raid with capped mits before update 22.2 and was still in 1 shot range for some of Sagrog's combos.
    This guy, siipperi, sometimes makes me smile

    Seems to me he is main support to Devs for nerfing all classes in lotro, especially warden
    Change yourself.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axillo View Post
    This guy, siipperi, sometimes makes me smile

    Seems to me he is main support to Devs for nerfing all classes in lotro, especially warden
    I feel like he doesn't even play the game anymore because all he does is go, I do this, but then doesnt say who is character is so others can get help...
    Rimenuir | Fadhroreth | Daechamnir | Rimenswords | Beornemgarth | Rimensneak | Rimenoath | Smicho | Rimentank |
    Arkenstone Server, Meneldor native.
    Rimenbuff and Rimenpew : Landroval

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    There likely is no video of it because it wasn't possible. I had 225k morale in raid with capped mits before update 22.2 and was still in 1 shot range for some of Sagrog's combos.
    It's possible and not even that much harder than with champion tank. Our warden had 175k morale I believe. But no, nobody takes videos out of ordinary raid nights.. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean it's impossible. It's utilizing very specific tactic that I talked about before raids release (no exploits). Some people have smarts on these tactics, some don't.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It's possible and not even that much harder than with champion tank. Our warden had 175k morale I believe. But no, nobody takes videos out of ordinary raid nights.. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean it's impossible. It's utilizing very specific tactic that I talked about before raids release (no exploits). Some people have smarts on these tactics, some don't.
    So you say, but no one on all of Arkenstone has done it. So, the MOST COMPETITIVE Raiding server has 0 Kinships that have done it. This would lead me to believe that you haven't done it, despite all of your claims. If you weren't constantly claiming that you're capable of doing things that every other competitive raider agrees is highly unlikely, I'd be more inclined to believe you. But it totally could just be that you're the best player in the game at just about every class(sure seems to be what you believe based on all of your forum posts in various class forums). Anyway, hats off to you if you and your kinship really could. I hope to see you and your group claim the next world first for the upcoming raid in u23. If what you say is true, the two top Kinships on my server sure will have a run for their money....

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    So you say, but no one on all of Arkenstone has done it. So, the MOST COMPETITIVE Raiding server has 0 Kinships that have done it. This would lead me to believe that you haven't done it, despite all of your claims. If you weren't constantly claiming that you're capable of doing things that every other competitive raider agrees is highly unlikely, I'd be more inclined to believe you. But it totally could just be that you're the best player in the game at just about every class(sure seems to be what you believe based on all of your forum posts in various class forums). Anyway, hats off to you if you and your kinship really could. I hope to see you and your group claim the next world first for the upcoming raid in u23. If what you say is true, the two top Kinships on my server sure will have a run for their money....
    Its unfortunate if whole server cant figure out best tactics to do boss 2/3 (this strategy is even documented on youtube by other kinship) and utilize it with warden tank but not surprising considering one of their top kins had to utilize fingar statue exploit to kill the boss first time... Sometimes egos get ahead of solid execution and team work. And the team work is the key here to do it in style we did. Thatsall the hints you going to get, now time to do detective work!

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Its unfortunate if whole server cant figure out best tactics to do boss 2/3 (this strategy is even documented on youtube by other kinship) and utilize it with warden tank but not surprising considering one of their top kins had to utilize fingar statue exploit to kill the boss first time... Sometimes egos get ahead of solid execution and team work. And the team work is the key here to do it in style we did. Thatsall the hints you going to get, now time to do detective work!
    Best tactics, huh? The kinship I'm in currently has the fastest times for both boss 2-3 and we do use a Warden tank for Fingar. The argument wasn't about Warden's capability for Fingar anyway. The argument you were making is that it is possible for a Warden to Tank Sagrog(the actual boss Sagrog not adds) prior to update 22.2.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    The argument you were making is that it is possible for a Warden to Tank Sagrog(the actual boss Sagrog not adds) prior to update 22.2.
    I have no intention to get caught in the crossfire , but it was certainly doable for a warden to tank sagrog cause i did actually heal a warden through a successful run.
    *shrug* It wasn't easy but what can i say , our guardians were chest locked -_-
    The hard part for all tanks is stacking the mitigation debuff to full , on the last tier it basically strips all tanks naked.
    Warden was arguably the least optimal tank for the job , but with decent morale ofc it was doable.

  21. #46
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    Is it just me or have skills been firing off much slower since 22.2? I haven't been getting lag in game at all lately, but my gambits feel all out of order and are taking forever to actually trigger it feels like. Has anybody else been experiencing this at all? It's like a consistent thing for me and is making the class feel way clunkier than it even normally would.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeneth View Post
    Is it just me or have skills been firing off much slower since 22.2? I haven't been getting lag in game at all lately, but my gambits feel all out of order and are taking forever to actually trigger it feels like. Has anybody else been experiencing this at all? It's like a consistent thing for me and is making the class feel way clunkier than it even normally would.
    That is indeed the case. They increased/normalized masterie execution times. This is not the first time either. Happened on u18 as well.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeneth View Post
    Is it just me or have skills been firing off much slower since 22.2? I haven't been getting lag in game at all lately, but my gambits feel all out of order and are taking forever to actually trigger it feels like. Has anybody else been experiencing this at all? It's like a consistent thing for me and is making the class feel way clunkier than it even normally would.

    YES! Masteries and Builders need to operate at least 3x faster than they do.
    Esp since we need to press 3-5 keys where other classes are pressing 1.
    Currently if feels like a snail class.

    It would be better to minimize delays in Masteries and Builders, and IF any
    delay is needed put it on the gambit execution key.

 

 
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