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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Post [PvMP] Remove Outpost and Keep/DoF buffs, restore the Rating system

    I was going to go into detail about my reasons for this opinion, but I honestly don't think it's too controversial so I'm just going to lay it out.

    1. Remove the mastery buffs granted for controlling Outposts.

    If a buff for controlling them is necessary (and I don't think it is) it shouldn't be something which directly impacts on PvP (i.e. no stat/damage/health boosts) nor should it be an infamy/renown or commendation gain boost.

    2. Remove the infamy/renown buffs granted for controlling Keeps.

    Again, no buffs which directly impact on PvP increase infamy/renown/commendation gain.

    3. Remove the infamy/renown buffs granted for defeating the DoF bosses.

    Instead these bosses should be the targets of new quests (on a weekly reset timer) which reward players with lots of commendations and some infamy, e.g. defeating Rottenroot/Drake = 250 commendations and 100 infamy, defeating Gaergoth = 500 commendations and 250 infamy (or something like this).

    4. Restore the Rating system.

    Fix the rating system to be more like how it used to be, chiefly so that it doesn't fluctuate so wildly. The average rating of a player should be 1000. Rating above 1000 should go up more slowly, and go down more per death than it goes up per kill, the higher it is. Rating below 1000 should go down more slowly, and go up more per kill than it goes down per death, the lower it is. It shouldn't be the case, like it is now, that you can hit 2000 rating after one RvR fight where you don't die, and then die once and be down to 800 rating. One final note, the rating of a player should affect how much infamy/renown they are worth to other players that kill them, but your own rating should not affect your own infamy/renown gain (i.e. if a player with 1000 rating kills a player with 1500 rating they should, ceteris paribus, get the same amount of infamy/renown as a player with 500 rating would get for killing a player with 1500 rating).

    EDIT: If there are concerns about players caring too much about rating, just hide it from player view (the principles suggested above should still operate behind the scenes).

    5. Compensate global infamy/renown gain for the removal of the Keep/DoF Buffs and the restoration of the Rating system.

    EDIT: To clarify this point a solo kill on a player with 0/1000/2000 rating should be, respectively, 100/300/500 infamy/renown. The way points are divided among multiple contributors can work largely how it does now.
    Last edited by ChaChaLoco; Jun 07 2018 at 05:28 AM.

    Cohorts of the Red Legion
    Vae Victis - Woe to the vanquished.
    Timidi mater non flet.

  2. #2
    I agree w/ keep/OP and am working on it to make a suggestion on it.

    And I agree that rating should change, but I disagree w/ the system you are suggesting. Basing it off K/D will make people who care about it absolutely annoying asf to deal with.

    Would prefer that rating is scaled off of an equation that emphasizes in the quality of a kill.


    Giving delving boss quests to do is interesting. But at the end of the day, can we still get something that will encourage bridge shuffles of old back in the day. Map restructuring.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CampbellCommunity View Post
    I agree w/ keep/OP and am working on it to make a suggestion on it.

    And I agree that rating should change, but I disagree w/ the system you are suggesting. Basing it off K/D will make people who care about it absolutely annoying asf to deal with.

    Would prefer that rating is scaled off of an equation that emphasizes in the quality of a kill.
    Yes, that's possible - I'd be fine with the rating just being hidden and this system working behind the scenes. As I clarified in the edits, something like a solo kill of a player with 0/1000/2000 rating (whether or not rating is visible) should be, respectively, 100/300/500 infamy/renown.


    Quote Originally Posted by CampbellCommunity View Post
    Giving delving boss quests to do is interesting. But at the end of the day, can we still get something that will encourage bridge shuffles of old back in the day. Map restructuring.
    I actually suggested just that in a comment under the mirror of this post I put in the Player Suggestions sub-forum (link here).

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaChaLoco View Post
    I think the game/map worked far better, and had much more movement across the zone, when the keeps had no back doors, West TA Bridge and South TA Bridge could be flipped by a capture flag, and Orc Camp and Elf Camp (and the respawn points) were in their old positions. I guarantee a restoration to that setup would create some focal points of action WITHOUT those focal points becoming a boring shuffle that cannot end because one side is protected by one-shots, the other by a Keep back-door, and both with nearby respawn points.

    Cohorts of the Red Legion
    Vae Victis - Woe to the vanquished.
    Timidi mater non flet.

  4. #4
    backdoor | autoflip removal is 100% needed hot fix.

    However, as much as I loved bridge flipping, I think something more interesting can be done by creating more entrances into keeps to create chaos and LoS problems for healers and instead of having auto flips have messages that flash on screen saying minions of "faction" are attacking (x keep) - therefor + extra renown to those whom go to that keep and protect it. And these can be triggered by events such as our favorite Liutenant An or Goldy.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    4,651
    Unpopular opinion: they should remove the Ettenmoors, only leaving Osgiliath. It's a better PvP map. Would instantly fix the OP issue, and renown modifiers are much more reasonable on that map. Moreover, backdoors don't exist there.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Unpopular opinion: they should remove the Ettenmoors, only leaving Osgiliath. It's a better PvP map. Would instantly fix the OP issue, and renown modifiers are much more reasonable on that map. Moreover, backdoors don't exist there.
    Counter-points: the map is far too small; the map is far too laggy; any good design in the map is overshadowed by the bridge shuffle; the close-quarters nature of many areas in the map provides a huge advantage to Freeps (due to their disproportionately superior AoE).

    Cohorts of the Red Legion
    Vae Victis - Woe to the vanquished.
    Timidi mater non flet.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaChaLoco View Post
    Counter-points: the map is far too small; the map is far too laggy; any good design in the map is overshadowed by the bridge shuffle; the close-quarters nature of many areas in the map provides a huge advantage to Freeps (due to their disproportionately superior AoE).
    I don't think it's far too small by any means. Especially since creeps don't get any maps in Osgiliath. Perhaps freeps shouldn't be allowed to mount up, and that would solve the issue. I never experienced any lag in it, either. Presumably because no one is ever actually there. If it's laggy, though, then that's no different from the Ettenmoors. The bridge shuffle is a glorified Grams/GV shuffle, which is what takes place on Evernight as well as Arkenstone throughout the day. No changes there. Lastly, there are plenty of open areas such as the town squares, and even the "fighting pit" (I suppose it's more of a theatre, but you know of what I speak), the inside of the Dome of Stars, and the main bridge.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I don't think it's far too small by any means. Especially since creeps don't get any maps in Osgiliath. Perhaps freeps shouldn't be allowed to mount up, and that would solve the issue. I never experienced any lag in it, either. Presumably because no one is ever actually there. If it's laggy, though, then that's no different from the Ettenmoors. The bridge shuffle is a glorified Grams/GV shuffle, which is what takes place on Evernight as well as Arkenstone throughout the day. No changes there. Lastly, there are plenty of open areas such as the town squares, and even the "fighting pit" (I suppose it's more of a theatre, but you know of what I speak), the inside of the Dome of Stars, and the main bridge.
    I agree and disagree. I loved Osg at first. The potential for urban combat was amazing and I actually like the map design for the most part. I don't think it's too small but I do agree that the map goes 90% un-utilized. At the moment in the moors it's true there's usually a Grams/lugs shuffle but occasionally you can get fights elsewhere in keeps or OPs or DOF. In Osg when people actually played it I tried my hardest to bait zergs out of the bridge shuffle but no one could be convinced to leave. Do you think there's a possible way to add objs or some incentive to get people off the bridge? I'm all for osgiliath over the moors though. It has a ton of wasted potential.

    (Retired... Maybe un-retired?) Arkenstone: Immanitas R12 Burg, Gorbat R12 Reaver, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
    Crickhollow: Orphluk R9 Warg, Orphelun-1 R8 RK. -The Blood Hand.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever View Post
    I agree and disagree. I loved Osg at first. The potential for urban combat was amazing and I actually like the map design for the most part. I don't think it's too small but I do agree that the map goes 90% un-utilized. At the moment in the moors it's true there's usually a Grams/lugs shuffle but occasionally you can get fights elsewhere in keeps or OPs or DOF. In Osg when people actually played it I tried my hardest to bait zergs out of the bridge shuffle but no one could be convinced to leave. Do you think there's a possible way to add objs or some incentive to get people off the bridge? I'm all for osgiliath over the moors though. It has a ton of wasted potential.
    I agree that the biggest issue with the Osgiliath map is that there is very little incentive to play away from the main bridge. I'm not entirely sure what the best solution would be.

    I think, for starters, that there should be a substantial renown modifier when defending a capture point. The assaulting faction should get a reward only after they've captured the point, so that the focus is not to prolong the fight as long as possible. Rather, it should award infamy when captured, similar to Ettenmoors keeps, except more substantial (~500 infamy? Keep in mind that would be a lot, relative to freep kills, with the max. modifier of 90% in Osgiliath), and with a 1-2 hour cooldown, rather than 1 day.

    It would be quite nice to have pop-up quests when certain events are triggered (for example: have an arch-nemesis enemy spawn in the Dome of Stars when the faction controls every capture point, killing it awards everyone involved with a temporary renown modifier or just renown), but I feel like such ideas are beyond the scope of what LotRO is able to achieve, sadly. Similar events could be triggered in the town squares, to incentivise people to move away from the main bridge even more.

    I think it would be a mistake to provide a combat advantage to either side for assaulting/defending a capture point, as that disincentivises the side without the buffs.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I agree that the biggest issue with the Osgiliath map is that there is very little incentive to play away from the main bridge. I'm not entirely sure what the best solution would be.

    I think, for starters, that there should be a substantial renown modifier when defending a capture point. The assaulting faction should get a reward only after they've captured the point, so that the focus is not to prolong the fight as long as possible. Rather, it should award infamy when captured, similar to Ettenmoors keeps, except more substantial (~500 infamy? Keep in mind that would be a lot, relative to freep kills, with the max. modifier of 90% in Osgiliath), and with a 1-2 hour cooldown, rather than 1 day.

    It would be quite nice to have pop-up quests when certain events are triggered (for example: have an arch-nemesis enemy spawn in the Dome of Stars when the faction controls every capture point, killing it awards everyone involved with a temporary renown modifier or just renown), but I feel like such ideas are beyond the scope of what LotRO is able to achieve, sadly. Similar events could be triggered in the town squares, to incentivise people to move away from the main bridge even more.

    I think it would be a mistake to provide a combat advantage to either side for assaulting/defending a capture point, as that disincentivises the side without the buffs.
    I really like the idea of putting a renown reward on capturing points. It's similar to what ESO did and they have excellent objective combat around the map. Additionally the reward is increased based on the amount of total players who died capturing the keep or resource. That might be a bit beyond LoTRO's scale but it shouldn't be too hard to put a baseline incentive reward to pull people to the capture points.
    I also agree with dynamic event spawns that provide buffs being a good incentive, but also probably beyond SSG's capabilities atm.

    (Retired... Maybe un-retired?) Arkenstone: Immanitas R12 Burg, Gorbat R12 Reaver, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
    Crickhollow: Orphluk R9 Warg, Orphelun-1 R8 RK. -The Blood Hand.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Silverdale, WA
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    328
    -Get rid of Outposts all together.

    -Delving buffs are fine for Infamy/Renown but make them HARD. A true PvE challenge to accomplish when the craids/fraids are taking a break, a long pause in combat, or just NOTHING to do. Fight your way in, fight your way through, slay the literal dragon! Freeps have Epic stories, and raids, and skirmishes. The delving should be the equivelant creepside PvE experience, instead we collect branches and fight slugs...

    -Can get rid of Keeps all together or rework their entire existence.
    Who builds an exact replica of a castle a short walk away from another?
    I say build more Orc/Freep camps around the map so you still have that PvE NPC 'backup' without the lagginess. Give them a couple entrances or able to jump over the walls so not the deathtraps they are now.
    OST and DG are at war. There should be nothing inbetween 'permanent'...should just be recon forces, and temporary camps. Nobody cares about flipping keeps in 2 minutes just for them to autoflip back in an hour.

    -Worst case scenario if they want to force participation. Create some PvE elements to accomplish that doesn't even affect PvP land. Give them more buffs, kinda like the hold all relics buff, on freepside to increase Quest XP, or increase damage that why a PvP excursion force is required to attain these buffs and they come to the creeps instead of "Oh, so and so is on? Let's grab 40 people."

    -Rating system, meh.
    Jimi's Mash

 

 

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