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  1. #1

    Class balance myth

    Ok so hear me out...... I think the class balance is a veiled attempt to balance pvp/moors in the future ...
    That being said ... I rarely moors but i do listen to moors friends/kinmates and forums observations & complaints

    Here is what i gathered from reading forums and listening to moors people and the accompanying " class balance" that came
    1. Hunters can 1 shot creeps in blue line (nerfed blue/ line barrage)
    2. Burgs can 1 shot creeps in red line ( nerfed burg coup de grace and damage across the board)
    3. Guardians have no trait line/dps for moors ( buffed red line guard dps )
    4. If freeps have a ministrel healing/bolster spamming creeps cant kill anyone ( removed bolster spam for chord of salvation ( has a cd) and raise the spirit)
    5. Creeps specs that removed power were useless if there was a LM in group ( reduced power restore solo/fellow and added a cool down )
    This in turn made creeps over powered for removing power from freeps and was reduced
    6. Rk doTs were too strong and reduced the value of escape skills of creeps ( burrow/warg sprint) ( removed 1 dps relic from rks and reduced DoT damage)
    7. wardens can not be killed in moors but can not kill anything (increased warden dps)

    None of these are facts nor my opinion just observations about peoples' statements in the moors
    As you can see all this class balance " to make all classes viable" could be interpreted as just a veiled attempt at preliminary moors balancing..

    Any Dev is welcome to explain why this perceived deceit is false , but id rather have more experienced moors people explain this is simply not true
    Also this balance has to take into account that freeps will have potentially 2 cap stones from 2 different lines when level 120 hits if there are trait points in quest lines

    PS On a separate not I thought Severlin said blue line hunter and red rk would be the baseline for dps and remain unchanged ... sigh at all the misleads

  2. #2
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    Yep!

    That's all.

  3. #3
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    OK, I never PVMP. I tried it back in 2007/2008 and decided it was not for me.

    So now with that caveat out of the way I will ask a question...

    Why does it seem that all of the complaining threads always discuss nerfing freeps and never seem to ask for beefing up creeps?

    If the freeps keep getting (supposedly) more powerful, why not just adjust the creeps to balance things out?

    I'm not trying to criticize anything or anyone, I am just curious.
    Maybe the threads I have read are just the ones that seem to be on that side of things.
    ....................... missed a putt. ...............At a Dead & Co. show on a Mexican beach
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  4. #4
    Class balance is class balance. There's no conspiracy here. Sure it might seem like these changes have a big impact on the moors but honestly how would a bunch of class work not have a major impact on how a class vs class PvP zone functions?

    As far as everything you listed goes there are plenty of PvE centric reasons why such changes would be made. Heck, here are a few I can come up with off the top of my head:

    1. Barrage reduced 50% of Hunter rotation to spamming a single skill. Generally an MMO would consider that to be too "simplistic".
    2. Burgs could one shot landscape mobs by the same method. Generally MMO's like for combat to occur.
    3. Guardians had no real DPS traitline for just questing. Generally MMO's try to avoid you taking an hour to kill one camp.
    4. If Minstrels have BC spam it's really difficult for instance bosses to kill anyone without straight up resorting to one shots everywhere. Generally MMO's like to also make healing a competitive role.
    5. LOTRO hasn't let power matter for years. Generally MMO's like for your resources to mean something.
    6. The relics caused a massive disparity in damage between raider RK's and landscape RK's. Generally MMO's don't like to force reliance on singular gear pieces (granted they often fail there).
    7. I feel like the whole "Wardens are invincible" myth is mostly just indicative of the fact that the weaker players tend to avoid Wardens due to it being the most complex class to play well. Still, it did less DPS than other DPS traitlines. Generally MMO's like for DPS traitlines to have comparable DPS.


    Sometimes there aren't ulterior motives to things. Sometimes everything really is what it declares itself to be.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    OK, I never PVMP. I tried it back in 2007/2008 and decided it was not for me.

    So now with that caveat out of the way I will ask a question...

    Why does it seem that all of the complaining threads always discuss nerfing freeps and never seem to ask for beefing up creeps?

    If the freeps keep getting (supposedly) more powerful, why not just adjust the creeps to balance things out?

    I'm not trying to criticize anything or anyone, I am just curious.
    Maybe the threads I have read are just the ones that seem to be on that side of things.
    Because it's bad for PvP. When they are done with class balance classes are way closer to each others in terms of DPS and balancing will be significantly easier. After that adding PvP debuffs for freeps combined with auda bonuses for creeps is solution. Not buffing creeps offensive and defensive stats. Their morale pools should be lowered in fact and both sides damage normalized to point where 1v1 fights would last about 2-3x longer. Meaning freeps would do just fraction of DPS they do in PvE in PvP and several creep classes dps lowered.

    1v1 fights taking 40s+ (most proper fights lasting over minute) is good mark for damage levels in ettenmoors. It means 6 DPS still takes quite a while to kil one character giving healers time to react on healing the character. They just need to make sure healing is significantly more in control after such changes as well.
    Last edited by siipperi; Jun 01 2018 at 09:34 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    If the freeps keep getting (supposedly) more powerful, why not just adjust the creeps to balance things out?
    Freep classes aren't equally powerful. Buff creeps too much and you'll end up in a scenario where only the top freep classes can hope to stand a chance. Do class balance however and you'll end up with a much more competitive opposition.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  7. #7
    Also was the guardian stun from brutal charge/warchant a moors issue? if yes than that explains why it was attempted to be removed

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Class balance is class balance. There's no conspiracy here. Sure it might seem like these changes have a big impact on the moors but honestly how would a bunch of class work not have a major impact on how a class vs class PvP zone functions?

    As far as everything you listed goes there are plenty of PvE centric reasons why such changes would be made. Heck, here are a few I can come up with off the top of my head:

    1. Barrage reduced 50% of Hunter rotation to spamming a single skill. Generally an MMO would consider that to be too "simplistic".
    2. Burgs could one shot landscape mobs by the same method. Generally MMO's like for combat to occur.
    3. Guardians had no real DPS traitline for just questing. Generally MMO's try to avoid you taking an hour to kill one camp.
    4. If Minstrels have BC spam it's really difficult for instance bosses to kill anyone without straight up resorting to one shots everywhere. Generally MMO's like to also make healing a competitive role.
    5. LOTRO hasn't let power matter for years. Generally MMO's like for your resources to mean something.
    6. The relics caused a massive disparity in damage between raider RK's and landscape RK's. Generally MMO's don't like to force reliance on singular gear pieces (granted they often fail there).
    7. I feel like the whole "Wardens are invincible" myth is mostly just indicative of the fact that the weaker players tend to avoid Wardens due to it being the most complex class to play well. Still, it did less DPS than other DPS traitlines. Generally MMO's like for DPS traitlines to have comparable DPS.


    Sometimes there aren't ulterior motives to things. Sometimes everything really is what it declares itself to be.

    All you did was explain/ give more evidence of a cover up and conspiracy

  9. #9
    Side note ... they are increasing our ignore lists instead of doing something about gold spammers

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmunney View Post
    All you did was explain/ give more evidence of a cover up and conspiracy
    Who's crazier; The conspiracy nut or the guy who tries to reason with the conspiracy nut?

    I'm worried it's the latter right now.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  11. #11
    I don't think there is a conspiracy to create PvMP balance, but PvMP players are very active on the forums and very vocal in advocating for different class changes which would be helpful to their monster play. Understandably, if PvMP balance is not viewed as priority for development, players who PvP are likely to use whatever rhetorical strategies they have available to them to shape development in a direction that furthers their interests. It really is up to the player base to call a spade a spade and think about how different changes might positively or negatively impact different aspects of the game (or at least, help the developers to do so). On some levels PvMP balance is the ultimate litmus test because the classes are actively competing against other players, and any serious imbalances are made plain pretty quickly. But since not all changes can be done at once, one hopes there is an awareness that in order for substantive changes to be made, imbalance is going to have to be the norm for a while and that not everyone is going to be stable and balanced in the short term

  12. #12
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    Pvp has been dead for years. There are countless of things wrong with it. This class balance is for pve.

  13. #13
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    Even if class balance changes were done for the sake of PvMP, which they're not, how would that be a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    I don't think there is a conspiracy to create PvMP balance, but PvMP players are very active on the forums and very vocal in advocating for different class changes which would be helpful to their monster play. Understandably, if PvMP balance is not viewed as priority for development, players who PvP are likely to use whatever rhetorical strategies they have available to them to shape development in a direction that furthers their interests. It really is up to the player base to call a spade a spade and think about how different changes might positively or negatively impact different aspects of the game (or at least, help the developers to do so). On some levels PvMP balance is the ultimate litmus test because the classes are actively competing against other players, and any serious imbalances are made plain pretty quickly. But since not all changes can be done at once, one hopes there is an awareness that in order for substantive changes to be made, imbalance is going to have to be the norm for a while and that not everyone is going to be stable and balanced in the short term
    I think this sums it up rather well, actually.
    Last edited by Giliodor; Jun 02 2018 at 05:46 AM.

  14. #14
    Agree with number of explanations from PVE and PVP about the need of balancing classes. And agree as well with keztryl when he/she says "players who PvP are likely to use whatever rhetorical strategies they have available to them to shape development in a direction that furthers their interests". PVP on this game is not the most important, especially when it sucks like nowadays, first of all we should think PVE (instances / landscape) when talking about adjustements on different classes. And AFTER this balance there could be PVP balance.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmunney View Post
    ....

    1+2 not true. Depends on the mps rank and and MP/Freep skill. Rank 0-5 Mps had always a hard time. My rank 9 Defiler gets farmed by Burgs but that's okay. They def not one shot me!
    3. Yeah but a guard should not come near a Dps class in red.
    4. Not true. Have seen otherwise. + If minstrel healing is THAT easy why do so many minstrels s**k?
    5. I see powerless Freep groups quite often.
    6. But they are important in PvE.
    7. Same with Beo. Depends on the traitline though. BUT remember the time when everbody cried because the warden dots were op in the moors...^^


    PvP should NOT have impact on PvE!!! The only way to do this is to adjust MP classes to Freep classes and NOT the other way around. Buff mits and morale of Mps..that's all. Or Maybe morale only...because...it would be only one component that might be f.... up
    Last edited by Hildilas; Jun 02 2018 at 05:46 AM.

  16. #16
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    Correlation does not equal causation. Of course PvMP is going to be better off because of class balance. That doesn't mean that PvMP is the cause of these changes. Every area of the game will benefit from these changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmunney View Post
    1. Hunters can 1 shot creeps in blue line (nerfed blue/ line barrage)
    2. Burgs can 1 shot creeps in red line ( nerfed burg coup de grace and damage across the board)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    1+2 not true. Depends on the mps rank and and MP/Freep skill. Rank 0-5 Mps had always a hard time. My rank 9 Defiler gets farmed by Burgs but that's okay. They def not one shot me!
    Creep DPS classes frequently get killed within 2 seconds. Maybe it's not one hit, but it's definitely outrageous, all the same, and should not be tolerated in PvP. It doesn't require any sort of skill on the freep's end to do so.

    3. Guardians have no trait line/dps for moors ( buffed red line guard dps )
    3. Yeah but a guard should not come near a Dps class in red.
    Why? Red line is a DPS spec. Provided that their survivability is nerfed in this line, why should they not do good DPS? What does this have to do with PvP? I could say the same about instances;
    Guardians have no trait line/dps for raids ( buffed red line guard dps ).

    4. If freeps have a ministrel healing/bolster spamming creeps cant kill anyone ( removed bolster spam for chord of salvation ( has a cd) and raise the spirit)
    4. Not true. Have seen otherwise. + If minstrel healing is THAT easy why do so many minstrels s**k?
    Bolster AoE is being nerfed because it's poor design to have one button heal the entire fellowship to full every 2 seconds. The design in poor in PvE, and it's poor in PvP. It's just more apparent in PvP, because creeps actually complain about it. The change had to be made for the game as a whole, not solely for the sake of PvP. Sure, PvP benefits from it. That doesn't mean it's the reason why the change was made.

    5. Creeps specs that removed power were useless if there was a LM in group ( reduced power restore solo/fellow and added a cool down )
    This in turn made creeps over powered for removing power from freeps and was reduced
    5. I see powerless Freep groups quite often.
    I will agree that this change seems mostly PvP focused, although I don't PvE enough to comment on the importance of Share the Power in PvE.

    6. Rk doTs were too strong and reduced the value of escape skills of creeps ( burrow/warg sprint) ( removed 1 dps relic from rks and reduced DoT damage)
    6. But they are important in PvE.
    Vastin explained why he's making changes to the runes. The only reason that RKs are taking a hit, is because they're removing the runes while not doing their respective class update. RKs will be fine, soon enough. When they get their class balance update.

    7. wardens can not be killed in moors but can not kill anything (increased warden dps)
    7. Same with Beo. Depends on the traitline though. BUT remember the time when everbody cried because the warden dots were op in the moors...^^
    So... For the sake of PvMP, they're having an unkillable class deal unhealable damage? That's what you're saying? I think this just shows how flawed the argument is that these class changes are made for PvMP. It's self evident that they are not.

    PvP should NOT have impact on PvE!!! The only way to do this is to adjust MP classes to Freep classes and NOT the other way around. Buff mits and morale of Mps..that's all. Or Maybe morale only...because...it would be only one component that might be f.... up
    PvP does not have any impact on PvE. Any changes made to classes are made on the basis of their overall performance, not their performance in PvP.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    ....

    But the damage that kills mps so fast is needed in raid.......So why not just buff mits/morale of mps? Nerfing Hunters a BIT okay...esp barrage....but the RK nerf that comes with the rune nerf is just too much.
    Yes a DD guardian should have no panics etc...Maybe a 2000 morale bubble ;DD
    Yes but WHEN will they do the RK update? I don't have one but I feel sry for all main RKs right now.
    No but just as the guard a red warden should have the survivability of a normal DD. I just wanted to note that they messed this up once.

    No impact? Heartseeker nerf? LM stun immu nerf? Epic Conclusion nerv? Sry but why would people even consider to argue about PvMP when it comes to classes If it didn't have impact? (okay maybe it got less because pvmp is nearly dead...) The Performance of the hunter ( except barrage and its bugs) is good in PvE. He is a damage dealer. The RKs are not that far behind which is also good. The champ needed a buff. These are our main dd classes right? If a guard was able to do as much damage as a hunter I want my hunter to have a tanking trait line! Just saying...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    But the damage that kills mps so fast is needed in raid.......So why not just buff mits/morale of mps? Nerfing Hunters a BIT okay...esp barrage....but the RK nerf that comes with the rune nerf is just too much.
    Yes a DD guardian should have no panics etc...Maybe a 2000 morale bubble ;DD
    Yes but WHEN will they do the RK update? I don't have one but I feel sry for all main RKs right now.
    No but just as the guard a red warden should have the survivability of a normal DD. I just wanted to note that they messed this up once.

    No impact? Heartseeker nerf? LM stun immu nerf? Epic Conclusion nerv? Sry but why would people even consider to argue about PvMP when it comes to classes If it didn't have impact? (okay maybe it got less because pvmp is nearly dead...) The Performance of the hunter ( except barrage and its bugs) is good in PvE. He is a damage dealer. The RKs are not that far behind which is also good. The champ needed a buff. These are our main dd classes right? If a guard was able to do as much damage as a hunter I want my hunter to have a tanking trait line! Just saying...
    Honestly half the reason I don’t care about these class balance patches anymore is I know ssg is gonna #### it up and has ####ed it up. But the thing is new instances are coming, so we can adjust those instances to fit our newly broken class, but atleast now no casual t1 player will ever be able to break into t2 with the gap of mistakes being so small now.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildilas View Post
    But the damage that kills mps so fast is needed in raid.......So why not just buff mits/morale of mps? Nerfing Hunters a BIT okay...esp barrage....but the RK nerf that comes with the rune nerf is just too much.
    Yes a DD guardian should have no panics etc...Maybe a 2000 morale bubble ;DD
    Yes but WHEN will they do the RK update? I don't have one but I feel sry for all main RKs right now.
    No but just as the guard a red warden should have the survivability of a normal DD. I just wanted to note that they messed this up once.
    Because the raid will (most likely) be perfectly doable with how the classes are now. If it's not, see it as a challenge. It won't be long until U23 comes out (presumably), and then, the new instances will be made with the current state of classes in mind. This is (again, presumably) also when the RK update will be. And yes, I agree, when tanking classes switch to DPS, they should have the survivability of a "normal DPS class".

    No impact? Heartseeker nerf? LM stun immu nerf? Epic Conclusion nerv? Sry but why would people even consider to argue about PvMP when it comes to classes If it didn't have impact? (okay maybe it got less because pvmp is nearly dead...) The Performance of the hunter ( except barrage and its bugs) is good in PvE. He is a damage dealer. The RKs are not that far behind which is also good. The champ needed a buff. These are our main dd classes right? If a guard was able to do as much damage as a hunter I want my hunter to have a tanking trait line! Just saying...
    I am not sure which Heart-seeker nerf you mean. Heart-seeker reset was nerfed because the lvl 105 set was still the strongest set for hunters, even at 115. If that doesn't show something is broken, I don't know what does. I assume that's what you're referring to. If that was not what you meant, then yeah, perhaps a nerf to Heart-seeker was made at some point due to PvP. I'll grant you that.
    LM stun immunity nerf was necessary, because it just negates certain mechanics. It's silly to have your entire group be immune to stuns. Simply broken.
    Same here as with Heart-seeker. If that happened, I'll grant you that. On the whole, though, SSG neglects PvP, they certainly don't make PvE changes because of it.

    I just want to address that last sentence you wrote. Guardians were designed to have a DPS spec. Hunters weren't designed to have a tanking spec. It doesn't logically follow from guardians have a viable DPS spec, that hunters should have a viable tanking spec. It logically follows that hunters should have a viable CC spec, since that's what yellow line was made for.

 

 

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