We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1

    Why Class Balance Passes are largely irrelevant without system changes.

    I'd like to point out some major issues that need to be addressed before the next increase in level cap and instance cluster/raid, so here goes:

    PLEASE TRY TO REFRAIN FROM DEVOLVING THIS THREAD INTO A DISCUSSION OF OFF TOPIC ISSUES. THESE ISSUES ARE INTEGRAL TO ACTUALLY FIXING CLASS BALANCE AND ENSURING IT FOR THE LONG TERM.

    A lot of the issues certain classes are facing are due to unrelated game design mechanics. Every minor change they make is still going to be foiled by the terrible design of some game mechanics. Even more odd, it's almost like they put entirely new people in charge of designing instanced combat mechanics in Mordor as an afterthought. It seems like some fight mechanics just entirely lack foresight with being hospitable to certain classes.

    I'll give 3 examples of this in Mordor Instances:

    1. Dulgabeth T2C: Heavy Armour Classes are capable of doing this fight with much worse levels of gear than Medium/Light Armour classes. This is so imbalanced to the point that fully geared RK's have to use a gimmicky pre-fight trait swap in order to avoid being one-shot without a LM or Guardian in the group to either reduce damage taken or provide shield wall. There is also a major mechanic in the fight that makes it impossible for some classes that have the majority of their damage sourced from DoT's to avoid taking these massive damage spikes. This segue's to my next example.
    2. Lhaereth T2C: Melee classes are extremely disadvantaged in this fight, despite the fact that the opposite is the case in the previous fight. The Challenge boss, Khilnat, actually has a faster base speed than players actually do, so it's really difficult to dps him if you aren't able to keep 100% uptime on your movement slow. So again, it seems like they had no foresight in designing this instance because where one fight is nearly impossible as a squishier dps class, the next fight is the exact opposite in that it is toxic to melee dps.
    3. Fingar T2C: I think this is the most prevalent example of the Developer's total lack of foresight and common sense in regard to designing instanced content. When you inspect Fingar's stats, his mitigation stats are all "Incredible", yet only one type of his mitigation can be reduced to 0% and that's fire mitigation. So DPS classes that can benefit from Fire Mitigation debuffs are automatically at a DPS advantage over classes that can't. Coincidentally, the classes with the two highest baseline DPS levels, RK and Hunter, are the ONLY DPS classes that can benefit from these buffs. Not to mention the fact that the fight is terribly toxic towards melee dps classes due to fight mechanics.

    I don't even want to get into the ridiculous disparity certain classes see in the Finesse system but I feel like it's at least as big of a problem here as the poorly designed instances are. However, I'll give some numbers from what I've seen on how much certain classes need versus the benefit they receive from Finesse.
    1. Warden: Needs between ~140k in CoS T2C and 185k in AoM T2C, and 201k for Fingar to get 0% resists. Even with these absurd levels of finesse players can still see upwards of 10% partial evades, which there is no way to reduce from any stat available to us in game. However, Warden's don't really have a choice in stacking this much finesse due to the fact that if a DoT resists, the entire DoT then has to be remade wasting precious time in the rotation drastically reducing dps.
    2. LM: Needs ~180k in AoM T2C to get 0% resist. They don't really have a choice because their debuffs are so integral to Raiding that if one falls off for even a few seconds it can result in the death of a tank and therefore a potential wipe.
    3. Champion: Needs ~110k in AoM T2C to get 0 resists and full Block/Parry/Evades. However, even with this level of Finesse, Champion's still get 10%+ partial evades which throttles their DPS pretty significantly as most of their damage is based around Critical hits especially in Red line. So, despite the fact that they need a pretty high amount of Finesse for the raid, it benefits them very little.
    4. Hunter: Needs ~80k in raid but similarly to Champion doesn't benefit much as they can see ~10%+ partial evades even at this level of finesse. Hunter's are also very crit reliant so this can cause a pretty drastic swing in potential DPS based around partial evade chance, and if those partial evades happen on the dice roll in place of a potential crit. They could hit 500k with Barrage of Fire 3 or they could get screwed and hit 10k with a partially evaded Barrage of Fire 3. Luckily, the class benefits from having the highest baseline DPS of any class in the game in addition to the fire mitigation disparity.
    5. RK: Needs ~80k similarly to Hunter. However, as a tactical class, their abilities can't be Blocked, Parried, or Evaded. They also benefit from having extremely high base dps, and from the fire mitigation disparity.
    6. Burglar: Not sure how much they need? But I do know that Red Line has incredibly high burst damage upon initial combat, probably the highest in the game. They also have integral debuffs such as reveal weakness even in Red Line, which can drastically increase group DPS.
    Perhaps other people could comment on Burglars and and other Debuffing/DPS classes? Beorn/Cappy? This is pretty much the extent of my knowledge as experience Burgs/Captains/Beorns willing to share their knowledge are often much fewer and far between than the other classes I've listed.


    I know some of these issues aren't going to be fixed because they don't have the manpower to redesign instance mechanics. However, I just really hope they don't make the same mistakes when they're creating new instanced content. Otherwise, all of this class balancing work surrounding DPS classes will be a moot point and we'll be no better off than we are on Live. It's not like MOST classes have issues with completing/competing in non-instanced content. Warden and Champion, the two classes least valued for current instanced content are two of the strongest classes in non instanced content. Therefore one could assume that most of the problems for these classes lies in the fact that the current instances were just completely designed without certain classes in mind.(By the way, I'm not including Beorning in this list because the class barely functions properly and has been pretty useless since it was created).

  2. #2
    I agree. I personally thought that champs were in a fine place (yellow line)and that the instance just didnt demand melee dps like throne did in throne if u went in champless.. ur gonna wipe. You couldve went in there with 5 champs and actually had a fine time. But by the way thst melee people have been complaining, id be surprised if the next instance wasn't completely champ dependent

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Fraushgrish2 View Post
    I agree. I personally thought that champs were in a fine place (yellow line)and that the instance just didnt demand melee dps like throne did in throne if u went in champless.. ur gonna wipe. You couldve went in there with 5 champs and actually had a fine time. But by the way thst melee people have been complaining, id be surprised if the next instance wasn't completely champ dependent
    tbh the last raid where champs were in a really good spot was lv 75 and tower of orthanc.
    red champion did more dps then any hunter/rk in that raid.
    lv 85 with erebor and 105 with throne was more about super heavy aoe for yellow champ and not so much about red champ.
    hd trait tree changes ####ed red champion and even the current changes are not enough.

    in my opnion red champ should easy do burg dps(thats 60k on the dummies).
    Drizzels
    EN Evernight Odyssey Officer and Raid Leader
    Original Challenger of the Abyss
    NA Gladden:Ramble on of Elendilmir

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,652
    A yellow champion being a necessity on a single target boss fight isn't a good thing. If a fight is single target, it should be preferable for the champion to be in yellow line. The reason that they were wanted in Throne was because Rend was ridiculously overpowered, which is why I don't understand that it was buffed. Even in Throne, red line champions were not wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    tbh the last raid where champs were in a really good spot was lv 75 and tower of orthanc.
    red champion did more dps then any hunter/rk in that raid.
    lv 85 with erebor and 105 with throne was more about super heavy aoe for yellow champ and not so much about red champ.
    hd trait tree changes ####ed red champion and even the current changes are not enough.

    in my opnion red champ should easy do burg dps(thats 60k on the dummies).
    I would argue that it wasn't the changes in HD that messed up red line champs. They have simply been undertuned since HD. The trait trees themselves aren't that much of an issue at all. If anything, it made red line more interesting in terms of the DPS rotation. There are but two problems:

    1) Sluggish animations
    2) Low damage values, but high critical multipliers. This makes the DPS extremely unreliable.

    Those two could easily be fixed. Then bring back the old version of Continuous Blood Rage, and champs will be fine. Also just tune the numbers to be in line with those of other classes.
    Last edited by Giliodor; Jun 01 2018 at 07:22 AM.

  5. #5
    The viewpoint of maxxed out characters has already been stated.
    For nonmaxxed out characters, whats much more relevant for daily routine is NOT which class you play (though that has impact), its how much effort you put into the ILI system. Especially for physical DPSers, the ILI system just grows stupidly. That needs to change. The gap between maxxed out and low end is clearly too big. The jump in mainstatstrength for physical ILI is just as silly as the implementation of mainstatrelics which scale incredibly strong for tactical items and needs to be changed. For casuals, the impact of a ILI revamp would be much more needed than class balance changes.
    And yea, there are other issues. However, class balance changes are still very welcome.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Anführer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
    Deutsche Guides für nahezu alles, was Casuals interessieren könnte, gibts hier: http://gdfv.forumo.de/guides-f24/

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,354
    I agree there are many faults but your post is having a lot of miss information and not taking account several things. Let me correct you there:

    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    1. Dulgabeth T2C: Heavy Armour Classes are capable of doing this fight with much worse levels of gear than Medium/Light Armour classes. This is so imbalanced to the point that fully geared RK's have to use a gimmicky pre-fight trait swap in order to avoid being one-shot without a LM or Guardian in the group to either reduce damage taken or provide shield wall. There is also a major mechanic in the fight that makes it impossible for some classes that have the majority of their damage sourced from DoT's to avoid taking these massive damage spikes. This segue's to my next example.
    Sure? But this has always been the case. Heavy armors have significant advantage over light armors when it comes to bosses having random attacks. Anyway it's clear that even if heavy can participate fight in theory worse gear, they are simply worse off doing so lol. Fight takes significantly longer on heavy classes at the moment. Anyway you do not need shieldwall anyone in group or use CnR before fight as RK. Done it tens of times without both and it's just fine. If you have beorning, guardian or captain as tank you can benefit a lot from them and they protect the group. If you have LM or burg you can reduce damage etc. This boss is non issue, does not require any of tricks you mention, sure you can use them but not required to beat it and if some worse off groups need them? Great, actually need to counter mechanic in order to survive? Im in...

    2. Lhaereth T2C: Melee classes are extremely disadvantaged in this fight, despite the fact that the opposite is the case in the previous fight. The Challenge boss, Khilnat, actually has a faster base speed than players actually do, so it's really difficult to dps him if you aren't able to keep 100% uptime on your movement slow. So again, it seems like they had no foresight in designing this instance because where one fight is nearly impossible as a squishier dps class, the next fight is the exact opposite in that it is toxic to melee dps.
    What? Just go melee with him and nuke like any proper group? Khilnat is not moving and just nuke it down. I do agree last fight is a bit melee unfriendly but only because cauldrons AoE damage when taking them down, which can be countered with captain mark for example if not wanting to have a healer. Real reason why that fight can be hard for certain classes is their lack of sustained self healing that both RK and hunter has. Why? Because random attacks + DoT bats do.

    3. Fingar T2C: I think this is the most prevalent example of the Developer's total lack of foresight and common sense in regard to designing instanced content. When you inspect Fingar's stats, his mitigation stats are all "Incredible", yet only one type of his mitigation can be reduced to 0% and that's fire mitigation. So DPS classes that can benefit from Fire Mitigation debuffs are automatically at a DPS advantage over classes that can't. Coincidentally, the classes with the two highest baseline DPS levels, RK and Hunter, are the ONLY DPS classes that can benefit from these buffs. Not to mention the fact that the fight is terribly toxic towards melee dps classes due to fight mechanics.
    Mitigation debuffing has been discussed previously and most agree RK mit debuffs should be nerffed a lot and LM debuffs nerffed a bit. However I think you can have with ease one or two melee characters on him all the times. Sure you need to move and get bounced off few times but TBH it's way worse to be RK on that fight. Having been there from melee to ranged to healer, tank and support I know...


    5. RK: Needs ~80k similarly to Hunter. However, as a tactical class, their abilities can't be Blocked, Parried, or Evaded. They also benefit from having extremely high base dps, and from the fire mitigation disparity.
    This is just flat out false. All people I play with use over 110k finesse on RK and they still see frequent resists on harming skills. Pretty sure highest finesse numbers people use I know is around 140k and still not sure if you get 100% free, probably not.

    I know some of these issues aren't going to be fixed because they don't have the manpower to redesign instance mechanics. However, I just really hope they don't make the same mistakes when they're creating new instanced content. Otherwise, all of this class balancing work surrounding DPS classes will be a moot point and we'll be no better off than we are on Live. It's not like MOST classes have issues with completing/competing in non-instanced content. Warden and Champion, the two classes least valued for current instanced content are two of the strongest classes in non instanced content. Therefore one could assume that most of the problems for these classes lies in the fact that the current instances were just completely designed without certain classes in mind.(By the way, I'm not including Beorning in this list because the class barely functions properly and has been pretty useless since it was created).
    I do agree there are melee unfriendly mechanics but that is mainly on first boss in the raid, first boss trash and in Naerband during trash pulls. On fingar you get compensated with increased melee damage which is nice.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    I agree there are many faults but your post is having a lot of miss information and not taking account several things. Let me correct you there:


    Sure? But this has always been the case. Heavy armors have significant advantage over light armors when it comes to bosses having random attacks. Anyway it's clear that even if heavy can participate fight in theory worse gear, they are simply worse off doing so lol. Fight takes significantly longer on heavy classes at the moment. Anyway you do not need shieldwall anyone in group or use CnR before fight as RK. Done it tens of times without both and it's just fine. If you have beorning, guardian or captain as tank you can benefit a lot from them and they protect the group. If you have LM or burg you can reduce damage etc. This boss is non issue, does not require any of tricks you mention, sure you can use them but not required to beat it and if some worse off groups need them? Great, actually need to counter mechanic in order to survive? Im in...


    What? Just go melee with him and nuke like any proper group? Khilnat is not moving and just nuke it down. I do agree last fight is a bit melee unfriendly but only because cauldrons AoE damage when taking them down, which can be countered with captain mark for example if not wanting to have a healer. Real reason why that fight can be hard for certain classes is their lack of sustained self healing that both RK and hunter has. Why? Because random attacks + DoT bats do.


    Mitigation debuffing has been discussed previously and most agree RK mit debuffs should be nerffed a lot and LM debuffs nerffed a bit. However I think you can have with ease one or two melee characters on him all the times. Sure you need to move and get bounced off few times but TBH it's way worse to be RK on that fight. Having been there from melee to ranged to healer, tank and support I know...




    This is just flat out false. All people I play with use over 110k finesse on RK and they still see frequent resists on harming skills. Pretty sure highest finesse numbers people use I know is around 140k and still not sure if you get 100% free, probably not.


    I do agree there are melee unfriendly mechanics but that is mainly on first boss in the raid, first boss trash and in Naerband during trash pulls. On fingar you get compensated with increased melee damage which is nice.
    Regarding your point on Lhaereth T2C while fighting Khilnat, there are penalties to straight up melee'ing the boss. He stuns players in melee range, if you break the stun you have to run like 15 meters+ out of range to deactivate his stun, or else it'll stun you again for half duration once your temporary immunity is gone.

    Regarding your point on Dulgabeth T2C, yes it's not a huge issue and you can work around it. However, what if you bring a Warden tank? Then the RK HAS to CnR, which highlights my point that certain classes are being weeded out due to ridiculous mechanic design. Sure all of these mechanics can be cheesed by overgeared and skilled players, I do it all the time. Does that detract in any way from the point I'm making? Not even a little bit. The mechanics are designed not with class inclusion in mind, but with exclusion of certain classes. This is not and never will be proper instance design.

    Regarding your point on Finesse levels, sure my numbers may be slightly off but again you're completely missing the point of what I'm saying. Let me give you a hypothetical example that you might understand better. Just say, for instance, that EVERY class had the same Finesse requirement for AoM T2C of 110k. Would those classes benefit equally from that finesse? No, not even slightly. If a tactical class Caps Finesse, it's done -over- with, bada bing bada boom 0% resist chance. If a Physically sourced damage class reaches the cap Finesse of 110k in this imaginary scenario, they would still be getting at a minimum 10% partial evades, which could translate into partial blocks and parries if you're badly positioned for even a few seconds. Does this seem fair to you in any way? If a developer is going to create a system in which enemy mobs are able to b/p/e and/or resist players, then players who use this stat should be able to reduce the amount of b/p/e and/or resists they get to an equal amount (0% or whatever Dev's intend the absolute minimum to be) regardless of class.

    As it stands now, classes like Warden have to face a double check on many of their abilities in Red line. I.E. You're getting rolled for Resist and B/P/E and still getting affected by partial evades. Meanwhile, RK's could theoretically do the same thing Warden's do and stack 150k+ Finesse in order to secure 0% resist while not even having to worry about partial b/p/e's. Combine this with the fact that they can use fire damage, which is already at a great advantage, then combine this with the fact that their base DPS is within margin of error of 5%-10% of classes such as Warden. That's 3 advantages to bringing an RK over a Warden EVEN WITH the nerfs on Bullroarer and significant buffs to Red line Warden.

    So really, nothing you've said has really corrected me. Rather, you're reinforcing ideas that I'm presenting but as usual in your Siiperi way, deciding to disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing with me. Do you even consider, ever that this type of attitude is part of why the Dev's have such a hard time sifting through the muck of feedback that we give them? For every one person giving constructive, and educated feedback there are two more players who are going to find some reason to slightly disagree. I constantly see you and a few others doing this across class forums that I'm not even sure that you play. Regularly in Warden forum claiming to be an experienced Warden, yet aren't even capable of seeing the fact that claiming "just bring captain or guardian tank" to X boss is exactly the problem some classes such as Warden are facing. They're given no toolkit to deal with ridiculously imbalanced instance mechanics that other classes can deal with effortlessly.

    So rather than put in immense work to drastically change the essence of certain "useless" classes, I'm suggesting that SSG not continue to put mechanics that require x, y, or z buff or debuff from X class just to be viable in future instances.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,354
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Regarding your point on Dulgabeth T2C, yes it's not a huge issue and you can work around it. However, what if you bring a Warden tank? Then the RK HAS to CnR, which highlights my point that certain classes are being weeded out due to ridiculous mechanic design. Sure all of these mechanics can be cheesed by overgeared and skilled players, I do it all the time. Does that detract in any way from the point I'm making? Not even a little bit. The mechanics are designed not with class inclusion in mind, but with exclusion of certain classes. This is not and never will be proper instance design.
    Take LM or burg with you? Use 1 piece with critical defence/vitality essences as RK. Dont try fight against mechanics. So easily solved situation. Some classes are better with different kind of group setups. You would never run guard, burg, minstrel group in 3 man for example. It's same here, try mix and match.

    Regarding your point on Finesse levels
    I have acknowledged problems with finesse years before you have posted these so I really see no reason to re-iterate myself and devs are aware of it. And after that you are just changing subject because you lost on points you tried to make, derailing your own thread.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Take LM or burg with you? Use 1 piece with critical defence/vitality essences as RK. Dont try fight against mechanics. So easily solved situation. Some classes are better with different kind of group setups. You would never run guard, burg, minstrel group in 3 man for example. It's same here, try mix and match.



    I have acknowledged problems with finesse years before you have posted these so I really see no reason to re-iterate myself and devs are aware of it. And after that you are just changing subject because you lost on points you tried to make, derailing your own thread.
    Again, you're just playing into the fact of admitting that the classes are not balanced properly. So you're telling me that as a Warden Tank, I should have to be beholden to finding a skilled and geared LM just to run CoS T2C with me? Or else, I'll struggle to complete it? Might I remind you that LM's are one of the lowest population classes in the game currently? Meanwhile both Guardian and Captain Tanks can bring along whichever 2x DPS classes they please and complete the instance more quickly, and with less effort than I can as a Warden tank? Yet, Warden is supposed to be High skill cap, high reward class?<That is coming direct from Tybur on the 11th anniversary stream.

    Edit: BTW I was on the forums discussing the problems with finesse back when it was implemented in RoI. I was in a top raiding kinship back in those days too. So I doubt you were here years before me.
    Last edited by gaara908776; Jun 01 2018 at 10:21 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,354
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Again, you're just playing into the fact of admitting that the classes are not balanced properly. So you're telling me that as a Warden Tank, I should have to be beholden to finding a skilled and geared LM just to run CoS T2C with me? Or else, I'll struggle to complete it? Might I remind you that LM's are one of the lowest population classes in the game currently? Meanwhile both Guardian and Captain Tanks can bring along whichever 2x DPS classes they please and complete the instance more quickly, and with less effort than I can as a Warden tank? Yet, Warden is supposed to be High skill cap, high reward class?<That is coming direct from Tybur on the 11th anniversary stream.

    Do I need to screenshot your post in the Warden forums saying that the update for Warden's to have 5% increased base mitigation in Blue line was a bad change? I wouldn't want to embarrass you by proving your biases against certain classes...
    There is synergy between classes. Wanting situation where it doesn't matter what kind of group construction you make is what kills this game, it takes soul out of gameplay. Setups matter. Combinations matter. Warden + burglar 3man base is significantly better than guardian and burglar for example. You don't need LM with you as warden but if you try different setups you need to adjust groups needs. No healer or debuffer? Slot few more protective pieces and so on. I have tanked on warden with 2x DPS so I don't see your point, within same time as on my other tanks (well captain has taken the longest but that's mostly due sucking at it and can't do massive pulls smooth like with warden/guard).

    Yes I do think +5% base mitigation and free morale to tank lines are bad for any class. Class like warden should build those up not given free. Not sure what you trying to "embarrass" when I have been extremely consistent on this stance no matter of the class. No tank should get passive morale bonuses on their tank line and class like warden should not be given mitigation as passive while traiting tanks, I have had that stance always when this topic has been brought up. Build it up to survive and suggestions I have made for tanking warden are even sturdier, higher mitigation bonuses to gambits, damage reduction, etc, than they have implemented so far so there's my bias? Trying to make warden significantly stronger. Why you think warden had ST taunt added? Why you think warden had on shield gambits several mitigation bonuses added? Little you know... And on guard threads I have agreed guardian needs nerf on challenge, nerffing that tanks ability to tank. But that's off topic as far as I'm concerned.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    A yellow champion being a necessity on a single target boss fight isn't a good thing. If a fight is single target, it should be preferable for the champion to be in yellow line. The reason that they were wanted in Throne was because Rend was ridiculously overpowered, which is why I don't understand that it was buffed. Even in Throne, red line champions were not wanted.



    I would argue that it wasn't the changes in HD that messed up red line champs. They have simply been undertuned since HD. The trait trees themselves aren't that much of an issue at all. If anything, it made red line more interesting in terms of the DPS rotation. There are but two problems:

    1) Sluggish animations
    2) Low damage values, but high critical multipliers. This makes the DPS extremely unreliable.

    Those two could easily be fixed. Then bring back the old version of Continuous Blood Rage, and champs will be fine. Also just tune the numbers to be in line with those of other classes.
    Yea red champs are in a wierd area where they don’t do enough dmg at high lvl yet they do too much dmg at a low lvl so u can really balance it, but definetly a start to fixing champ dps as a whole is giving them fire weapons (kinda funny cause I have belerian dmg on my rk rune) to balance red line u definetly need to narrow the gap between crit hits and none crit hits. On beta, I’ve hit 40k with remorseless none crit, but crit I hit 130k I’m sure there is a common ground

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,354
    Quote Originally Posted by Fraushgrish2 View Post
    Yea red champs are in a wierd area where they don’t do enough dmg at high lvl yet they do too much dmg at a low lvl so u can really balance it, but definetly a start to fixing champ dps as a whole is giving them fire weapons (kinda funny cause I have belerian dmg on my rk rune) to balance red line u definetly need to narrow the gap between crit hits and none crit hits. On beta, I’ve hit 40k with remorseless none crit, but crit I hit 130k I’m sure there is a common ground
    Significantly better approach is to nerf fire mitigation debuffing combined with slightly better alternatives to physical debuffing. That's one of reasons why damage levels are so absurd and why bosses die in 10-15 seconds in instances like Seregost, where seen hunter doing over 200k DPS bursts.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    There is synergy between classes. Wanting situation where it doesn't matter what kind of group construction you make is what kills this game, it takes soul out of gameplay. Setups matter. Combinations matter. Warden + burglar 3man base is significantly better than guardian and burglar for example. You don't need LM with you as warden but if you try different setups you need to adjust groups needs. No healer or debuffer? Slot few more protective pieces and so on. I have tanked on warden with 2x DPS so I don't see your point, within same time as on my other tanks (well captain has taken the longest but that's mostly due sucking at it and can't do massive pulls smooth like with warden/guard).

    Yes I do think +5% base mitigation and free morale to tank lines are bad for any class. Class like warden should build those up not given free. Not sure what you trying to "embarrass" when I have been extremely consistent on this stance no matter of the class. No tank should get passive morale bonuses on their tank line and class like warden should not be given mitigation as passive while traiting tanks, I have had that stance always when this topic has been brought up. Build it up to survive and suggestions I have made for tanking warden are even sturdier, higher mitigation bonuses to gambits, damage reduction, etc, than they have implemented so far so there's my bias? Trying to make warden significantly stronger. Why you think warden had ST taunt added? Why you think warden had on shield gambits several mitigation bonuses added? Little you know... But that's off topic as far as I'm concerned.
    Why shouldn't Tank classes have passive buffs over their non tank counterparts? Literally every single other MMO handles balance between tanking and DPS classes in this way. In fact, most MMO's don't let you dip so deeply into a spec that isn't your main one. I.E. DPS classes stay as DPS classes but are great at it, Tanks handled the same way, Debuffers the same, and healers the same. Yet, they still somehow balance it in a way that makes each class good at their given role or traitline. That's how balance used to be handled here in LotRO prior to HD, and it's pretty much how it's handled in every successful MMO over the past decade. Even ESO with a totally different combat system is based around having abilities that pretty much solely pertain to your given group role. Tanks will reduce incoming damage to the group and themselves, healers will heal the group and buff healing related mechanics, and DPS classes increase the damage enemies take while simultaneously dealing damage.

    LotRO used to function this way, but group role was more based on class than trait spec. Helm's Deep tried to refocus this while providing classes with multiple roles, but mostly fell short save for a select few classes.

    Passive Survivability buffs in combination with Group and/or personal defensive cooldowns are pretty much the only viable method of tanking in the current Raid environment. So, either the Dev's do what I'm suggesting and properly design content that takes ALL Classes and their roles equally into consideration(incredibly hard to balance with their limited resource supply), or they further Homogenize styles of Tanking/Healing/DPS across classes so that they have to account for less unique class factors(easy solution requires less resources but at the cost of class flavour).

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload