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  1. #1

    Tactical dmg Relics....pls dont

    Ok before all the pvp clansmen start attacking me, I agree rks for sure need a nerf, i can easily do over 100k dps in a raid setting but this nerf is too far and i understand that an rk class update will be coming to adress this so pls move this nerf to when u update the rk

    in short if this update goes live RKS WILL BE A DEAD CLASS until balanced and hopefully not by friendlyhat

  2. #2
    Tactical relics nerf? Exactly what needs to happen.

    Not doing the RK work at the same time? Not so good.

    Admittedly it's still somewhat redeemable depending on how quickly the next update after this one is coming. Sure it'll suck if RK's are reduced to being simple debuffers in group content for a month or two but people can live with that as long as they have a rough idea of when the fix is coming. I've said it before but these changes really weren't handled in a particularly good order. Really should have focused on tackling one role at a time rather than doing things on a class by class basis.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Tactical relics nerf? Exactly what needs to happen.

    Not doing the RK work at the same time? Not so good.

    Admittedly it's still somewhat redeemable depending on how quickly the next update after this one is coming. Sure it'll suck if RK's are reduced to being simple debuffers in group content for a month or two but people can live with that as long as they have a rough idea of when the fix is coming. I've said it before but these changes really weren't handled in a particularly good order. Really should have focused on tackling one role at a time rather than doing things on a class by class basis.
    yes i said we needed the nerfs

    Its a horrid idea to do it without at the same time doing the rk balance patches

    Nope prolly not 15% fire mit isnt worth wasting a whole spot for specially since most raid groups might need 3 healers because of how badly these mini balances were handled

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Fraushgrish2 View Post
    yes i said we needed the nerfs

    Its a horrid idea to do it without at the same time doing the rk balance patches

    Nope prolly not 15% fire mit isnt worth wasting a whole spot for specially since most raid groups might need 3 healers because of how badly these mini balances were handled
    At this point RK's are doing 40k-45k average on a Training dummy(not even including some 50k outlier parses I've seen). In a raid, RK's will be getting buffs like Oathbreakers, Captain Crit buff, even more mitigation reduction from LM's, Burglar Reveal Weakness, Potentially Warden Diminished target debuff, Minstrel Anthem's, and the group Blade Brother buffs. Abyss bosses don't resist attacks if RK's have over 80k finesse, so this won't have any negative effect on their DPS either. So, in a raid setting I'd guess that RK's will be sitting at 60-70k sustain.

    1. Boss 1 Twins Challenge mode in Mordath requires a group dps of ~250k to complete it within the enrage timer. An average group composition will have 5 DPS spots if they use a Yellow Captain. 250,000/5 = 50,000. RK almost does this much with NO BUFFS on BR dummies.
    2. Boss 2 isn't really even a DPS race so Idk why it matters. It's more about how fast you can remove corruptions.
    3. Fingar T2C average time for my kin is like ~16-18 mins maybe less? Some have completed it in less than 14 minutes. You have 25 minutes to complete challenge so still, even with RK dps nerfs, groups will do MORE than enough dps using only RK's on this boss. Even still, Fire Mit debuffs on this boss are very, very valuable as Fingar is practically immune to any non Fire mitigation without any debuffs.

    Multiple kinships and even PUG's on Arkenstone have posted videos of speed runs for all 3 bosses where they bring 1 Minstrel for both bosses 1 and 2 on Live. So although the minstrel changes will probably make this impossible, I imagine most groups won't be bringing a third healer to any bosses other than Sagrog, which some Kins already bring 3 healers to in order to make it faceroll.

    It's amazing when you actually analyze the fights and/or do a little bit of math, how well it foils those who claim doom and gloom without any factual evidence whatsoever.

    What isn't okay is the fact that Red line Champions are parsing very similarly to Red RK's, and they won't benefit nearly as much from raid buffs as an RK will because in Abyss T2C on a Red Champ with similar levels of Finesse, you'll be getting upwards of 10% partial evade alone, which significantly throttles their DPS. Similarly, Warden's have to have over 200k Finesse to avoid having some of their Light DoT's randomly get resisted in addition to dealing with a large amount of partial evades. Not to mention the fact that melee classes have to deal with terrible melee mechanics in Boss 1 and 3.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    At this point RK's are doing 40k-45k average on a Training dummy(not even including some 50k outlier parses I've seen). In a raid, RK's will be getting buffs like Oathbreakers, Captain Crit buff, even more mitigation reduction from LM's, Burglar Reveal Weakness, Potentially Warden Diminished target debuff, Minstrel Anthem's, and the group Blade Brother buffs. Abyss bosses don't resist attacks if RK's have over 80k finesse, so this won't have any negative effect on their DPS either. So, in a raid setting I'd guess that RK's will be sitting at 60-70k sustain.

    1. Boss 1 Twins Challenge mode in Mordath requires a group dps of ~250k to complete it within the enrage timer. An average group composition will have 5 DPS spots if they use a Yellow Captain. 250,000/5 = 50,000. RK almost does this much with NO BUFFS on BR dummies.
    2. Boss 2 isn't really even a DPS race so Idk why it matters. It's more about how fast you can remove corruptions.
    3. Fingar T2C average time for my kin is like ~16-18 mins maybe less? Some have completed it in less than 14 minutes. You have 25 minutes to complete challenge so still, even with RK dps nerfs, groups will do MORE than enough dps using only RK's on this boss. Even still, Fire Mit debuffs on this boss are very, very valuable as Fingar is practically immune to any non Fire mitigation without any debuffs.

    Multiple kinships and even PUG's on Arkenstone have posted videos of speed runs for all 3 bosses where they bring 1 Minstrel for both bosses 1 and 2 on Live. So although the minstrel changes will probably make this impossible, I imagine most groups won't be bringing a third healer to any bosses other than Sagrog, which some Kins already bring 3 healers to in order to make it faceroll.

    It's amazing when you actually analyze the fights and/or do a little bit of math, how well it foils those who claim doom and gloom without any factual evidence whatsoever.

    What isn't okay is the fact that Red line Champions are parsing very similarly to Red RK's, and they won't benefit nearly as much from raid buffs as an RK will because in Abyss T2C on a Red Champ with similar levels of Finesse, you'll be getting upwards of 10% partial evade alone, which significantly throttles their DPS. Similarly, Warden's have to have over 200k Finesse to avoid having some of their Light DoT's randomly get resisted in addition to dealing with a large amount of partial evades. Not to mention the fact that melee classes have to deal with terrible melee mechanics in Boss 1 and 3.
    Idk why you had to bring the raid into this i generally dont care about the abyss anymore i am a challenger but the abyss is done we're looking at the instance content that will come out with the next update, where hunters will do almost 80-90k in a raid setting completely blowing out the 60-70k u quoted earlier, so the problem isnt that rks still do good dps, the issue is that hunters now have no one to challenge them on the throne of dps. Parody? Balance? I also have a champ why do you think i dont want champs to get boosted?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fraushgrish2 View Post
    Nope prolly not 15% fire mit isnt worth wasting a whole spot for specially since most raid groups might need 3 healers because of how badly these mini balances were handled
    Probably not. Beornings can likely handle it all just fine and if the follow up changes go live it probably won't even take much skill to have a minstrel heal through any T2C. Things are harder now but they weren't exactly hard to begin with. Hell, I don't even remember the last time a Minstrel was the cause of a wipe since they could just blindly overheal everything.

    It's also worth noting that the DPS for other classes has gone up with this work so now there's a little less pressure on the individual character needing to pull high numbers.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Fraushgrish2 View Post
    Idk why you had to bring the raid into this i generally dont care about the abyss anymore i am a challenger but the abyss is done we're looking at the instance content that will come out with the next update, where hunters will do almost 80-90k in a raid setting completely blowing out the 60-70k u quoted earlier, so the problem isnt that rks still do good dps, the issue is that hunters now have no one to challenge them on the throne of dps. Parody? Balance? I also have a champ why do you think i dont want champs to get boosted?
    You have no idea what will come first out of the instance cluster or RK balance work. Maybe just stick to asking them which will be first rather than panicking?
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    You have no idea what will come first out of the instance cluster or RK balance work. Maybe just stick to asking them which will be first rather than panicking?
    it doesnt matter if i know it or not i know that hunters are now a lot more favorable as they will be doing a ton more dmg...rks got a 30% nerf to their dps skills...remember that.

  9. #9
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    By looking at classes like Minstrel , Loremaster , RK in BR #4 , i couldn't help but wonder.
    Lets say the rating on the tactical damage rune went back to 125.4 ( as of greater abyssal ) and you were only allowed to use one.
    Would that be OP ?
    The answer is no , on the contrary , i believe it would be more balanced ^^

    As for healing relics , i can't say yet ^^

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    By looking at classes like Minstrel , Loremaster , RK in BR #4 , i couldn't help but wonder.
    Lets say the rating on the tactical damage rune went back to 125.4 ( as of greater abyssal ) and you were only allowed to use one.
    Would that be OP ?
    The answer is no , on the contrary , i believe it would be more balanced ^^

    As for healing relics , i can't say yet ^^
    I would actually be fine with that

  11. #11
    +1 for keeping 1 tact relic at +125 tact dmg.
    1 is enough till they are able to Balance tact dps on the LI.
    Drizzels
    EN Evernight Odyssey Officer and Raid Leader
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  12. #12
    I could deal with the current beta runes , only if they given tactical classes the li dps increase which all physical classes got. I thought the point of allowing tactical classes to get benefits from x2 runes was because we did not this buff.

  13. #13
    The lower the value on the runes the better as it ensures that raider tactical DPS characters don't end up far exceeding non-raider RK's in terms of maximum damage output. I'm loathe to recommend that they increase the tactical damage relic back up to 125 because it's just going to cause another argument down the line when they do RK changes and likely nerf the relic back down to the current beta level.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  14. #14
    A nerf to the tactical runes (both healing and damage) is totally needed.
    However, that nerf HAS TO come together with a raise in ILI mainstats, so with a revamp of the ILI system.
    One single rune should never make more than a 20% difference in DPS. Id even say never more than 10%.

    One totally should only be able to use one of those runes and not in both ILI, and they should be reduced in potency as well. And even more than on BR.
    But the time is wrong to do that change now. It needs to come with the ILI revamp that lets ILI mainstats scale with characterlevel. Thats the perfect timing to nerf those stupid runes (and do an even bigger nerf so that they only increase dps/healing by less than 10%, like the physicals).


    What the ILI revamp needs to do?

    ILI mainstat (dps, tactical dps, tactical healing and all non-percentage legacies that are not about skilluptime) need to scale with characterlevel.
    A viable scaling formula for those would be something like
    250 + 0.5% per crystal + 5% per characterlevel higher than 100 for mainstats (dps, tactical dps, tactical healing)
    whateverthebasevalue is +0.5% per crystal + 5% per characterlevelhigherthan100 for the other mainstats (incoming healing, whatevershielduserank gets converted to)
    150 + 5% per characterlevel + 1% per SoE for mainstatlegacies (will/fate/agi/str/vit)
    All values obviously need to be tested. But thats the system how ILI needs to scale. If they do that, the tactical runes can get their CLEARLY DESERVED nerf, which should be even stronger than the nerf in current testing.
    This revamp needs to come before new endgamecontent comes. Till then, tactical classes can live with being weaker (although its hard). But it should not take more time. if it does, revert the nerf and get the nerf in when its time for it.
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  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Thing they don't realize that I tried to describe to Vastin is when they create 2 situations where physical dealers have their LI weapon damage on thousands and tactical damage on few hundreds it creates huge gap how damage is being calculated between light and other classes. Other class benefits way more from their weapon than other class, making other class way more gear depending if they want to do good damage, while other class is being kept competitive with buffing base damage on stupid levels, allowing them to go full morale builds or not have maxed LIs and still do sick damage for example.

    I'm not 100% sure how they calculate damage but it's like (100base x mastery) x legendary item rating + bonus damage. When other class has significantly higher multiplier for LI and both do same amount of DPS it means other class gets "for free" somewhere stats to compensate lower rating on weapon.

    They try justify this because of finesse and partials but in reality classes are being test with partials in mind so you just create huge gap between classes.
    Last edited by siipperi; Jun 01 2018 at 09:10 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kpnut View Post
    I could deal with the current beta runes , only if they given tactical classes the li dps increase which all physical classes got. I thought the point of allowing tactical classes to get benefits from x2 runes was because we did not this buff.
    That’s exactly what I thought as well
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    A nerf to the tactical runes (both healing and damage) is totally needed.
    However, that nerf HAS TO come together with a raise in ILI mainstats, so with a revamp of the ILI system.
    One single rune should never make more than a 20% difference in DPS. Id even say never more than 10%.

    One totally should only be able to use one of those runes and not in both ILI, and they should be reduced in potency as well. And even more than on BR.
    But the time is wrong to do that change now. It needs to come with the ILI revamp that lets ILI mainstats scale with characterlevel. Thats the perfect timing to nerf those stupid runes (and do an even bigger nerf so that they only increase dps/healing by less than 10%, like the physicals).


    What the ILI revamp needs to do?

    ILI mainstat (dps, tactical dps, tactical healing and all non-percentage legacies that are not about skilluptime) need to scale with characterlevel.
    A viable scaling formula for those would be something like
    250 + 0.5% per crystal + 5% per characterlevel higher than 100 for mainstats (dps, tactical dps, tactical healing)
    whateverthebasevalue is +0.5% per crystal + 5% per characterlevelhigherthan100 for the other mainstats (incoming healing, whatevershielduserank gets converted to)
    150 + 5% per characterlevel + 1% per SoE for mainstatlegacies (will/fate/agi/str/vit)
    All values obviously need to be tested. But thats the system how ILI needs to scale. If they do that, the tactical runes can get their CLEARLY DESERVED nerf, which should be even stronger than the nerf in current testing.
    This revamp needs to come before new endgamecontent comes. Till then, tactical classes can live with being weaker (although its hard). But it should not take more time. if it does, revert the nerf and get the nerf in when its time for it.
    You seem to really hate tactical rune lol
    I think the nerf is enough if they scale our LIs. As of rn, physical LIs give I think 457 dps while tactical only give 257

 

 

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