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  1. #26
    My problem is not the team I have the second best set of the game, the best essences of the game all the crystals mitigation cap vitality 166, I do not need to improve equipment to go to raid my problem is the lack of experience I do not know the tactics of the raid only I do istances of 3, or 6 and not raid and so the years go by and the raid I need a place to learn some skills of `aprendizage or some group solution I do not have nor is there kin in my server

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    All you've described there is players that won't listen to valid instruction. Not all players are like that, in fact, in my experience it's actually quite few, especially after a wipe or two. I've been that hunter screaming out for power, on many occasions, so I know what you're talking about, but when you get a small group of friends working together on a more regular basis, they tend to listen a bit better. The whole game since Mordor has already put t2c out of reach for more players than before it, and that will eventually show in the numbers. The line is very fine on how far they can push that. Too far and the t2c group will be too small, and couple that with upped landscape difficulty, if they increase that too far, they'll have very few casual players left who will be looking to gear for harder content. When everyone stops looking to try, then the game will fall, because the hardcore group will be too small to sustain it alone. I, and quite a few players I know and play with, know when we're going to have time to dip our feet and when we aren't. When we aren't, we don't bother with any of the grinds associated with the top end gear - because we don't need it. Sure, there are some casual players that want that gear, regardless of what their aims are, but that pool will get smaller as the harder stuff becomes out of their reach. With a good way to practise the runs, they may be more inclined to start dipping their feet in, and improving their gear builds and skillset, to try the harder stuff.

    Level 85 cap was my favorite time for instances. Everyone was running them on challenge mode and there was no shortage of players to group with. Level 100 wasn't bad either (with the exception of silly exploits and half baked runs). 105 onward, not so much IMO, too much dps racing and such. Take the first boss of tSS for example. Kill boss, control add waves. it takes about 60 secs to learn the kill order, then you've got it. Not very exciting for the first boss of a 6 man. Would have been better to have those add waves maybe hit a little less, but if a player gets the kill order wrong (or is even targeting the wrong mob without killing it) the mobs get a damage buff or something along those lines. That makes it interesting.
    Solution like I said, increase t1 difficulty. T1 used to be significantly harder before, no reason why it wouldn't work now. Only reason why T2 crowd is so small is because they keep awarding players by completing low level content so these players just farm that because that's mentality of non T2 folks.

    People weren't running 85 cap instances on CM, just farmed T1 because same loottables, with only moderately lower drop rate on t1, while runs were significantly faster... Non stop glff t1 BFE spam. Even raiders did T2CM raids few times and just quit the ####ty game, no rewards for our efforts, awful design. 85 level instances by far worst instance cluster in this game.

    Picking first bosses is not really making argument for you (not finished the instance but just farmed first boss?). Most first bosses in this game are pure tank and spank bosses, while TSS 1st boss has aggro dumps if you fail mechanic, big induction attacks, and so on. Is it the most complex fight ever? No, there are few like DoS that are more complex but in generally first bosses in instances are always extremely straight forward. While TSS last boss? Up there on complexity with any instance and surpassing most of them. If we look most of first bosses in this game they are pure full nukes. Especially during moria/soa times. Which you can't do in TSS unless group is really good even then margin of error is so small that wipe is quite often happening thing and if not full wipe several people die because aggro is close to impossible to maintain.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    People weren't running 85 cap instances on CM, just farmed T1 because same loottables, with only moderately lower drop rate on t1, while runs were significantly faster... Non stop glff t1 BFE spam. Even raiders did T2CM raids few times and just quit the ####ty game, no rewards for our efforts, awful design. 85 level instances by far worst instance cluster in this game.
    That's so true , is was personal loot as it is now.
    I believe the t2 gear wasn't that much better comparing to t1 and only required a t2 completion deed once ( which was no big deal ) and some currency that you also got from t1.

    Also , back then , one of the best loot you could get was first age symbols and it was faster to do it t1 , more runs , more symbols...
    Then , a few months later , if memory serves me well , they poped up and said ''symbols on t1 was a bug'' and they just removed them lololol.
    Then there was drama because of turtle reactions , justified rage because most people had already got them on t1 anyway and it was no longer important.
    Very similar to what they recently did with ash on Mordor landscape.
    First grind orc trackers and lag lhingris to death , patch , then grind uruk camp on agarnaith , patch , act like they didn't know about it , call it bug , remove ash.

    Defo worst instance cluster ever. Plus , the 3 erebor raids were terrible apart from maybe BFE and flight t2c stayed broken and uncompletable for many many months even if it was patched at some point when they tweaked some non-problematic mechanics.
    Last edited by BotLike; May 27 2018 at 02:33 PM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Solution like I said, increase t1 difficulty. T1 used to be significantly harder before, no reason why it wouldn't work now. Only reason why T2 crowd is so small is because they keep awarding players by completing low level content so these players just farm that because that's mentality of non T2 folks.

    People weren't running 85 cap instances on CM, just farmed T1 because same loottables, with only moderately lower drop rate on t1, while runs were significantly faster... Non stop glff t1 BFE spam. Even raiders did T2CM raids few times and just quit the ####ty game, no rewards for our efforts, awful design. 85 level instances by far worst instance cluster in this game.

    Picking first bosses is not really making argument for you (not finished the instance but just farmed first boss?). Most first bosses in this game are pure tank and spank bosses, while TSS 1st boss has aggro dumps if you fail mechanic, big induction attacks, and so on. Is it the most complex fight ever? No, there are few like DoS that are more complex but in generally first bosses in instances are always extremely straight forward. While TSS last boss? Up there on complexity with any instance and surpassing most of them. If we look most of first bosses in this game they are pure full nukes. Especially during moria/soa times. Which you can't do in TSS unless group is really good even then margin of error is so small that wipe is quite often happening thing and if not full wipe several people die because aggro is close to impossible to maintain.
    Not in my experience. Gold items dropped from challenge chests in level 85 runs. Sure, people ran BfE on t1, for the deed and mainly for the special ring crafting items, but some people did those raids on t2c. I managed Smaug on t2 (missed the challenge), but got 11 gold pieces of gear from challenge chests in other instances, and one from BG (which to this day, is still my favorite 12 man run, as a whole run, with OD poison being my favorite wing run).

    I've finished tSS, thanks, the first and last boss both had their boring bits (pure dps race on the two add bosses on final boss with a few minor tactics, avoid puddles, range kill lights, control spirits and that's it), with two side bosses with a bit more interest going on. DoS was far better IMO, and yes, I've completed that also.
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  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It does. Having fight last longer than 10s is already meaning fight is harder because you might need healing. Having fights take longer than 2 minutes means it's already harder since you might have been burning cooldowns and be on cooldown on them, thus can't use more of those to survive - automatically harder. Fights need to last certain time to make fights hard. If they don't last enough its automatically easier fight because cooldowns game offers to us. Also damage matters a lot. ... Damage and morale pools matter, mechanics alone does not make fights hard.
    I completely agree with you on this. Which is why I don't think T1 featured instances or skirmishes serve as a good way for a player to learn group and instance mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    What T1 difficulty really was in original design was stripped down mechanics and moderately lower mob statistics.
    The truth Neo, is that in the original design there was no T1 or T2 . Classic instances did not have tiers at all. If you beat the balrog in the rift then that was the the only game in town. Good job! No one ever had to qualify it by saying balrog t2c! In Moria the challenge came into being. But still no tiers. The challenge was just an additional mechanic or restriction. But it was the exact same boss and instance. Skirmishes were where tiers came into existence. And (in my view) were a crude balancing "knob" for add hoc groups of mixed sizes to adjust the skirmish to fit. But even when tiers were added to skirmishes they did not appear in classic instances.

    Tiers only became necessary after they started handing out gear that created large imbalances in player performance. Suddenly a well geared player did not just do 20% more damage. They did 400% more damage. And they had twice the morale and other stats. Then content became too easy. So, the answer was to copy the skirmish tier system to instances. With time, this became accepted as the norm. But it was never the original design.

    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    As I wrote, it's not developers fault these players never even bother reading what their skills do.
    In my view, if it is not all their fault it is surely some of it. It is their game and they create the content. A new player looks at what is soon to be 120 levels to gain before they can reach "end game". And they may even glance at a skill with the description "heals allies". No content in those 120 levels ever requires them to use that skill. So, it is unfair to blame them for not really knowing how it works. There was never a reason to use it. And most newly leveled players have never used their classes group related skills. There is no reason or opportunity to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Having done few T1 abyss pug runs out of curiosity, Valared high elf minstrel threw tantrum to me when I suggested to use bolster courage more. Telling me how he/she knew perfectly well how to heal. Leading to that group to die because minstrel was using major ballads and raise the spirit, chord of salvation as only heals. And that's not the only case, like LM who doesn't debuff or share power to 4 hunters asking for it but throws burning embers. That's not on developers. That's purely on players.
    So, you as one of the most skilled and knowledgeable players in the game, were not able to successfully guide/lead this group in a T1 Abyss? This is not meant as a put down. I can't either. And many other experienced players, even if they have extreme amounts of patience fail as well. It is not uncommon to reach a point where you can teach new players to do everything correctly enough to stay alive. But they just do not have the DPS to get over the silly enrage timer wall. It is frustrating. Because on one hand many good things were done and learned. But in the end the group still dies. And always will. Because there is a gear wall that must also be overcome. It would be nice if some content, any content, could provide an area where those who wanted to could teach others and not be predestined to fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It doesn't matter if player skill variates. This stuff worked perfectly fine during 75/85 levels. Why not now?
    Because at level 75 there were still a large fraction of players around who leveled up during the days when group content was part of the leveling process. And they were able to practice and learn some of these things. Those days and that content are long gone. It is unfair to blame players for not knowing how to do something they have never done. And there is not really a good area to try and teach them.
    Last edited by Dervorin; May 27 2018 at 07:09 PM.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    On Bullroarer RK's are doing more like 80% of the DPS of the absolute best Hunter's using HS reset set in red line. This hunter set up in certain fights that are non stationary or have high burst damage, such as Dulgabeth T2C and Fingar T2C won't be as viable. RK'S are within 10% of Champions and Wardens. That 10% will be different in a raid due to the fact that Tactical classes pull ahead on statistically higher level fights. Some melee classes have to deal with B/P/E and Resist double checks. My warden has to have 200k finesse in Abyss to not regularly have DoT's resist in Red Line on T2C. Champion red line DPS in abyss is heavily crit reliant and due to the terrible partial BPE's their attacks can get, they will still fall behind significantly.

    So, to counter your rather poorly put together and overtly biased assumption, the classes are actually in a place where they're closer in DPS than they have been for years. For God's sake, a DPS class with 2 In-combat Revives, mitigation Debuffs, and tactically based attacks is already at a massive advantage in terms of utility. There is no way they should also be topping the DPS charts.

    If you had even a modicum of respect for players of other classes, or even minor raiding experience, you wouldn't be here making grandiose claims that have been refuted with actual evidence on other parts of the Bullroarer forums.

    All the spread of misinformation like this does, is perpetuate the problems that currently exist on the Live server causing many classes to be excluded from end game content.
    Biased lol you admit wardens champs and hunters do more damage then the single target glass cannon clothy. Get your head out of your backside and as I said go back to school. If they don't properly balance the classes before release it will be an issue.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dervorin View Post
    Tiers only became necessary after they started handing out gear that created large imbalances in player performance. Suddenly a well geared player did not just do 20% more damage. They did 400% more damage. And they had twice the morale and other stats. Then content became too easy. So, the answer was to copy the skirmish tier system to instances. With time, this became accepted as the norm. But it was never the original design.
    Reason why they did difficulty tiers was because it became impossible to balance content for everyone when players learned their classes, that was already apparent with DN. Raids were too easy for good groups and for bad groups gradually harder to complete. Not because of gear differences but pure skill level. Anyway we had gear difference already in Moria and Mirkwood. Huge differences to DPS depending on your weapon and equipment. If we look RoI equipment non ToO gear is up there with item levels, while moria gear was clearly significantly worse if you didn't have raid/instance armors. Lack of radiance, lack of resistances/mits on crafted gear and so on. Those level caps might be level caps with highest gear differences between players (60-65).

    ToO had T1/T2 system balanced perfect. It meant you had absolutely still use CC and debuffing as worse group (and even good one), it was challenging for groups, yet fair so worse groups could do it on T1 with good coordination, while T2 served proper challenge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Not in my experience. Gold items dropped from challenge chests in level 85 runs. Sure, people ran BfE on t1, for the deed and mainly for the special ring crafting items, but some people did those raids on t2c. I managed Smaug on t2 (missed the challenge), but got 11 gold pieces of gear from challenge chests in other instances, and one from BG (which to this day, is still my favorite 12 man run, as a whole run, with OD poison being my favorite wing run).

    I've finished tSS, thanks, the first and last boss both had their boring bits (pure dps race on the two add bosses on final boss with a few minor tactics, avoid puddles, range kill lights, control spirits and that's it), with two side bosses with a bit more interest going on. DoS was far better IMO, and yes, I've completed that also.
    Of course they dropped from CM chest but the level of difficulty + more time compared to almost same drop rates in t1 meant most farmed T1. Did a lot of T2CM erebor raids and only times I got golden shield as guardian was t1 run so tells much about that... While T2CM runs usually were just marks and medallions and 0-1 symbols per raid lol. Others were experiencing exactly same BS and that is documented on these very forums, half of hunters were scarred for life by level of grind needed to RNG win these pieces, need of run instance 30-100 times to get golden item so most just ran t1 because doesn't matter if drop rate is 1% or 2.5%. 11 gold pieces, yeah right I almost believe that, I have hard time to believe player who started at start of RoR expansion would go on their way to farm literally hundreds of instances to get that amount of gold items, but to assume you speak truth you might be player with the most 85 gold items in history of this game certainly among highest and I know a lot of guys who farmed 5-6 instances on daily basis for months (before quiting the game totally and never came back after HD * show) and ended just handful of them.

    If you think side bosses in TSS have more interesting things going on than last boss, I seriously don't know what to say, probably not done the instance is my honest view after that. Side bosses have one gimmick each. Reflect, corruption+dot, rat spawn and area damaging mark, and on top of this these fights were over in about <20-40s, depending if group did instance before or after U18.2. Those are mechanics of all 4 side bosses combined and general opinion on those side bosses is they should have had 1-2 proper better fleshed out bosses instead of 4 tank and spank nuke fights that game throws dice on which you get.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post

    Of course they dropped from CM chest but the level of difficulty + more time compared to almost same drop rates in t1 meant most farmed T1. Did a lot of T2CM erebor raids and only times I got golden shield as guardian was t1 run so tells much about that... While T2CM runs usually were just marks and medallions and 0-1 symbols per raid lol. Others were experiencing exactly same BS and that is documented on these very forums, half of hunters were scarred for life by level of grind needed to RNG win these pieces, need of run instance 30-100 times to get golden item so most just ran t1 because doesn't matter if drop rate is 1% or 2.5%. 11 gold pieces, yeah right I almost believe that, I have hard time to believe player who started at start of RoR expansion would go on their way to farm literally hundreds of instances to get that amount of gold items, but to assume you speak truth you might be player with the most 85 gold items in history of this game certainly among highest and I know a lot of guys who farmed 5-6 instances on daily basis for months (before quiting the game totally and never came back after HD * show) and ended just handful of them.

    If you think side bosses in TSS have more interesting things going on than last boss, I seriously don't know what to say, probably not done the instance is my honest view after that. Side bosses have one gimmick each. Reflect, corruption+dot, rat spawn and area damaging mark, and on top of this these fights were over in about <20-40s, depending if group did instance before or after U18.2. Those are mechanics of all 4 side bosses combined and general opinion on those side bosses is they should have had 1-2 proper better fleshed out bosses instead of 4 tank and spank nuke fights that game throws dice on which you get.
    Yes, eleven gold items, over three alts, and all out of challenge chests. You can also add about 4 gold crafted items, and if you really want to, you can also count the 5 or more gold item recipes that I sold. I ran instances all day every day back then. 5 or 6 daily, is a very small number when you have all day to play (sure wish I had that time nowadays, but I don't have even a fraction of it). Try 10 - 15 most days. I know what the side bosses do in SS, just as I know what happens in the last boss. We disagree on what's interesting and what isn't - clearly. You're all about high morale pools, high damage and timers it seems, where as I prefer having to think on my feet. You make a lot of assumptions about other players, a lot of the time, and often, you're miles off the mark.
    Last edited by Arnenna; May 27 2018 at 08:53 PM.
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  9. #34
    Sorry for interrupting, but isn't the OP an author of this interview???
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW_u14w1cvE&t=143s
    Last edited by Siddharta; May 27 2018 at 09:29 PM.
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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Trreacherous View Post
    Biased lol you admit wardens champs and hunters do more damage then the single target glass cannon clothy. Get your head out of your backside and as I said go back to school. If they don't properly balance the classes before release it will be an issue.
    So you're going to take out one thing that I said and completely ignore the point I was making. I think I'll just leave it at that.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    So you're going to take out one thing that I said and completely ignore the point I was making. I think I'll just leave it at that.
    I'll never understand why double digit IQ's think that Rune-keepers, Champions and Wardens should do comparable or higher DPS than Hunters. You're better off ignoring people like that guy whose 4 total neurons cannot fire fast enough to understand that healing, tank and utility classes should never do as much DPS in raids as classes who can only do damage.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodin12 View Post
    My problem is not the team I have the second best set of the game, the best essences of the game all the crystals mitigation cap vitality 166, I do not need to improve equipment to go to raid my problem is the lack of experience I do not know the tactics of the raid only I do istances of 3, or 6 and not raid and so the years go by and the raid I need a place to learn some skills of `aprendizage or some group solution I do not have nor is there kin in my server
    Do you think all players who starts to raid know the tactic 100% ? The first time you try something new you should not expect to clear it. Countless wipes IS and SHOULD be needed in order to clear something on t2 and then go for the challenge run after this.
    There are also countless guides online so you can read yourself up on the fight. I for myself recently came back to this game after a 3 year long break and have been able to clear the raid many times already. First time i was there i had no clue, but as minstrels is OP it didn't matter..Cause all i did was spam bolster and pressing a few buttons when needed.

    Most tactics in abyss can be learned from older raids as well. If you can`t or are not able to do Abyss, go for other raids and clear them with a group you feel content with.

    Oh, and raid is not for everyone. You should not be able to raid if you dont know your class or dont have 11 others to play with.. Its simply as that.

    Like, i play league alot..since i play that game, should i be able to compete at the highest possible challenge just cause i play the game alot? Same thing goes for lotro.
    Last edited by NImlonda; May 28 2018 at 03:48 AM.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    So increase relative T1 difficulty. Problem solved. Double morale pools in T1 and increase damage 50%.

    In generally with ToO, pelennor instances and osgiliath instances are one of the most complex they have done.. To state otherwise is just factually wrong, some might not like that level of increased mechanics but thats personal preference. And none of them require or required morale stacking.

    Why? T2CM is extremely accessible compared to most MMOs.... Have you played raiding end game in other pve focused mmos? Most people would consider t2cm quite easy in comparison. And extremely accessible in terms of gear requirements. If there would be difficulty just for small amount of players we would need good 40-50% more morale per mobs and 50-80% more damage from bosses and good half dozen more mechanics per boss... It's not designers fault this game has one of worst player base when it comes to group skill and coordination. Not to mentioning level of individual play which in generally is just awful. Per server basis there are usually about 30-50 competent players when compared to other pve driven mmos, which tells how sad the situation really is. Even among raid groups there are a lot of players who get through with serious carry jobs, who could never complete hardest stuff with that level of play on pve mmos which are group focused with proper hard level tiers to challenge groups.

    Anyway complaining about running with pugs and not being taught instances is pointless. There is reason why people should join proper kinships instead of allowed to have private ones or dead kinships. These instances are explained on internet in extreme depth and if someone doesnt read them these days while wanting to learn mechanics its on them.

    So if there is real problem it truly is on t1 being way too easy. It should be same gap as before level 100. Cant remember exact numbers but like 30% less morale and about as much less damage compared to t2. Thats all there needs to be, since its clear t1 is still way too easy to intented design. If raid does not need damage reduction by lm/burg to be smooth its clear t1 is badly balanced tier.
    This if half true and half malarkey, as usual.
    In the term of other MMOs you right, raids are mostly but not always more complex on mechanics but not all raids in LOTRO are bad if it comes to the mechanics question. The basic point here is: i never played an MMO where bugs in raids last for moths or years or forever. If i just use GW2 as example: bugs in raids (but bugs generally) are fixed at a rate, what LOTRO will never reach (with less than half-dozen of system designer and class developer altogether: no surprise)

    The non-sense is, that it wouldn't be the fault of the designer, that so many players can not raid. It is entirely the fault of Turbine/SSG. They had good ideas, they always have had a lot of good ideas, but then usually messed up 50% of it in the realization and then fix only some 20% of the bugs. Bugged instances and raids, never tested/played mechanics etc. Remember ToO? For 6 Months there was no one worldwide, who could bite Sauron. Draigoch is bugged till today an SSG admit, they can not fix it, because is too complicated (sic!). Bard Guldur where the Fell-beast could decide not to fight as disappears or the Lieutenant just said goodby to the raid and fall through the floor. Ost Dunhoth was once called "Stronghold of Bugs". Now tell me, why ppl should want to raid if raids are designed/programmed so badly? Doing landscape content is just like sitting in a roller coaster: one map is to easy, one is to hard for soloing. For many years Mordor was the first new map where i saw "looking for quest partner" in the game chat (maybe the only one half-positive, what one can say about the Mordor Exp.).

    But wait a second .. maybe you right! Could it be that all the raiding problem is not the fault of bad design/programming? But then what else? Could then be the fault of ppl - like you - equipped to the teeth (you said 7 alts with full raid and swap gear, right?), who is running T1 just to come here and tell in every post how easy and boring is everything on T1 and asking to make thing harder etc? Yes, i think you right, the raiding problem is not the fault of bad design.

    Actually, there are some thing where i would like to say "you right", but i really don't like the attitude of your postings.
    Last edited by CaerArianrhod; May 28 2018 at 04:34 PM.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by XbammyX View Post
    I'll never understand why double digit IQ's think that Rune-keepers, Champions and Wardens should do comparable or higher DPS than Hunters. You're better off ignoring people like that guy whose 4 total neurons cannot fire fast enough to understand that healing, tank and utility classes should never do as much DPS in raids as classes who can only do damage.
    You act like you can perform all roles at once. In red line rk's should be doing comparable damage. For years RK's have been some of the best damage dealers in the game. Right now red line is the only viable build and doing 20% less damage than hunters is ridiculous with upcoming changes. I would agree with you if RK's were able to heal and dps effectively in a raid setting but that is not the case. I would think someone as bright as you would already know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    You don't think minstrel is OP in live?
    minis are op because ssg made them op with the healing runes otherwise when mordor first released mini were fine/struggled even in the moors

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    So you're going to take out one thing that I said and completely ignore the point I was making. I think I'll just leave it at that.
    Ive been clearing t2c since 2011. My point is your wall of text doesn't change the fact that these current changes are unfinished and a mess. They should do a proper fix before releasing. Remember Hunters being gimped for years? Yea I dont want that for RK's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trreacherous View Post
    Remember Hunters being gimped for years? Yea I dont want that for RK's.
    This isn't even remotely the same situation. For the years Hunters were struggling they didn't have any idea if they were ever going to get some class work done. In this situation we know for certain that they will be moving on to do work on RK's after the current class tweaks go through.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dervorin View Post
    I *think* the general gist of this is that LOTRO does not have any suitable area where a new player to the game can learn how to play their class in a group setting. And if this is your point, I agree with you.

    In the early days of the game, there was frequent group content as one leveled up. It was fairly well balanced in that it was not trivial (even for super geared players) yet doable if lead by someone who knew the important mechanics. These group encounters gave folks a way to learn the instance mechanics of the game and how their class operated in a group. This content is gone. And I don't see it coming back.

    Now days, it is possible for a player to level all the way up to the cap without ever joining a single fellowship. The valar things make this even easier. So, now the game has a large percentage of players that have not even seen the games instance mechanics and have never really played their class in a group setting. Some of them may become interested in trying group content. How do they learn?

    In the past, one could reasonably assume that a level capped player knew the basics of instance mechanics and class roles. But now this is an invalid assumption. And it is not the players fault for not knowing these things. It is because the game no longer has any reasonable way for them to learn.

    Featured instances and skirmishes pretty much don't count as 99.9% of the time, there is no communication between players and everyone simply DPSes through the thing as fast as possible ignoring all instance mechanics. The new player learns nothing about the game that would apply to more difficult instances. Tanking does not matter. Healing does not matter. Clearing wounds does not matter. Mob inductions are ignored. Ignore that eye above your head it does not matter. The list goes on and on. All of these things are important to learn for more serious/difficult content. But there is no good place for a player to learn them.

    It used to be the case, that a reasonably patient leader could form a PUG and do an instance while explaining these things to new players. It might take longer but it could be done. And there was a fair chance the group could have some success while learning. I've seen some of these folks try to do this in the group content since Pelenor. It is often painful. Painful to the point many of these leaders just give up on the whole thing. The group more often than not simply hits a wall. Even if they start to follow instructions and learn the mechanics they may not be geared enough to get over the wall. In the end it is frustrating for both the new player and the leader/teacher.

    In my opinion, some kind of goup content needs to exist that can serve as a classroom for such players. An area where the level of gearing is not that important but the instance mechanics ARE important. And I don't think the T1 versions of the last two raids count. How many learning groups got smashed to bits at the first or second boss? I'm not talking about regular raiders. I'm talking about groups of new players being led by an experienced player or two.

    So, maybe something could be done to either T1 versions of future raids, skirmishes, or scaled instances to lower the gearing wall and emphasize the mechanics of the game. Update 23 is suppose to focus on instances. I really think it would be great to have some of the instances configured with new player training in mind.

    I pretty much have to go along with this. The way I see it, LOTRO is way more gear centric than it's ever been in the past, which compounds this problem.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by rodin12 View Post
    My problem is not the team I have the second best set of the game, the best essences of the game all the crystals mitigation cap vitality 166, I do not need to improve equipment to go to raid my problem is the lack of experience I do not know the tactics of the raid only I do istances of 3, or 6 and not raid and so the years go by and the raid I need a place to learn some skills of `aprendizage or some group solution I do not have nor is there kin in my server
    This might help. There are other raid guides out there, as well.
    http://dadislotroguides.com/category/raid-guides/
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I pretty much have to go along with this. The way I see it, LOTRO is way more gear centric than it's ever been in the past, which compounds this problem.
    That's factually incorrect. if you didn't have proper radiance you couldn't even participate half of instances. Before you say "but shadow/light" it's not even close to barrier than radiance is. You automatically get 200, just by playing landscape.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trreacherous View Post
    You act like you can perform all roles at once. In red line rk's should be doing comparable damage. For years RK's have been some of the best damage dealers in the game. Right now red line is the only viable build and doing 20% less damage than hunters is ridiculous with upcoming changes. I would agree with you if RK's were able to heal and dps effectively in a raid setting but that is not the case. I would think someone as bright as you would already know that.
    I suppose it would depend on what you define as "comparable". An average DPS difference of 10-15% (in 22.2) seems reasonable to me, i.e., Hunter 65k vs RK 57k.
    My point is that hunters have no utility whatsoever outside of DPS to offer in a raid setting, whereas RKs bring 2 in combat rezzes, and a permanent damage shield (trait swapping, and soon to be a -inc damage from Self Motivate) among other things. My concern is that if RKs are buffed to a point of being comparable DPS to a hunter (<10%) then the usefulness of the hunter will immediately become 0 compared to the RK, who has much more to offer. Not to mention RKs are easier to play and aren't reliant on other classes to achieve high numbers.

    This concern comes from knowing happens when DPS classes are overshadowed in DPS by tank and healer classes. In Swtor, Powertechs (tanks) do the highest dps and are easier to achieve high dps with compared to Snipers and Marauders (both of whom can only dps and do nothing else). The first Revan kill was done with 8 Bounty Hunters (6 PTs, 2 Mercenaries) because the CC immunity they had made the 3rd floor infinitely easier. Tank and healer classes should never do more or equal dps to only dps classes (Warden/Rk vs Hunter), because the second they do the benefits of bringing those classes are too great to pass up.

    To use a numbers example, if Hunters do 65k and RKs 62k, and the DPS check is not difficult enough to warrant that tiny little bit more, RKs will simply be the better choice. There is much more to balancing than just DPS.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by XbammyX View Post
    and a permanent damage shield (trait swapping, and soon to be a -inc damage from Self Motivate) among other things.
    What's your source on that one?


    Quote Originally Posted by XbammyX View Post
    Tank and healer classes should never do more or equal dps to only dps classes (Warden/Rk vs Hunter), because the second they do the benefits of bringing those classes are too great to pass up.
    This is why you cut perks like the in-combat rez from being available in DPS lines. LOTRO really needs to work on refining each traitline to stand on their own rather than being some package deal that works out stupidly in many cases (Captain Tanks and their sheer support capabilities for example). More things need to be attached to the setbonuses of traitlines rather than available as traits you can spec points directly into or baseline abilities that apply regardless of tree. Currently the Beorning is probably the only class that does this to a reasonable degree i.e. most heals locked into yellow line alone, taunts and defensive buffs locked in blue alone and damage buffs locked in red alone.
    ~ The devs don't want to balance classes, what chance did I have ~

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    151
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    What's your source on that one?
    [Redacted].

    The previous post was a ban worthy offense, apparently. Hopefully they won't ban me. If you didn't see it, here's a hint:

    Last edited by XbammyX; May 30 2018 at 12:14 AM.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    8,354
    Quote Originally Posted by XbammyX View Post
    I suppose it would depend on what you define as "comparable". An average DPS difference of 10-15% (in 22.2) seems reasonable to me, i.e., Hunter 65k vs RK 57k.
    My point is that hunters have no utility whatsoever outside of DPS to offer in a raid setting, whereas RKs bring 2 in combat rezzes, and a permanent damage shield (trait swapping, and soon to be a -inc damage from Self Motivate) among other things. My concern is that if RKs are buffed to a point of being comparable DPS to a hunter (<10%) then the usefulness of the hunter will immediately become 0 compared to the RK, who has much more to offer. Not to mention RKs are easier to play and aren't reliant on other classes to achieve high numbers.

    This concern comes from knowing happens when DPS classes are overshadowed in DPS by tank and healer classes. In Swtor, Powertechs (tanks) do the highest dps and are easier to achieve high dps with compared to Snipers and Marauders (both of whom can only dps and do nothing else). The first Revan kill was done with 8 Bounty Hunters (6 PTs, 2 Mercenaries) because the CC immunity they had made the 3rd floor infinitely easier. Tank and healer classes should never do more or equal dps to only dps classes (Warden/Rk vs Hunter), because the second they do the benefits of bringing those classes are too great to pass up.

    To use a numbers example, if Hunters do 65k and RKs 62k, and the DPS check is not difficult enough to warrant that tiny little bit more, RKs will simply be the better choice. There is much more to balancing than just DPS.
    If rk continues to have same debuffs it should do more dps than hunter on EnG dummies to have classes balanced.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It's not designers fault this game has one of worst player base when it comes to group skill and coordination.
    I disagree. If it wasn't possible to buy your way through, the player base would necessarily be more competent, because you'd have to learn tactics, and co-operation, and, in many cases, civility.

 

 
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