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  1. #1

    of the raids are not for all in reality

    the raid is not completed by the lottery player there are many people who can not fill it not by chance but because he does not know and no one teaches him leaves him, he insults him and calls him an idiot until he leaves a lot of this deal on the part of of the lottery elect
    I'm going to tell the example of my server aali has only raid completed set and title kin odisey mig16 and prime who are masters of the game and have been playing like this for years and close the game to the rest calling occasional to the rest that is not true can not put raid every time t2 t2, t4 for people who did not have the opportunity to learn why they are alone and thrown in the game, I speak from the double experience of 2 games lotro and aion, in lotro I have been 12 years in aion 7 I am the same person game equal how is it possible that in aion this elite fence all raid have all set and in lotro can not raid, answer in aion taught me to play in raid with a good deal and like me many in lotro left me alone There is no where to learn and if you are not of the 3 kin of the master masters of the game you die. Solution a free raid for all between several servers for people who do not know and want to learn directed by the game itself and with a schedule that directs a gm and teach the g This is called an integrated identity server, so you can not continue a raid like this

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodin12 View Post
    the raid is not completed by the lottery player there are many people who can not fill it not by chance but because he does not know and no one teaches him leaves him, he insults him and calls him an idiot until he leaves a lot of this deal on the part of of the lottery elect
    I'm going to tell the example of my server aali has only raid completed set and title kin odisey mig16 and prime who are masters of the game and have been playing like this for years and close the game to the rest calling occasional to the rest that is not true can not put raid every time t2 t2, t4 for people who did not have the opportunity to learn why they are alone and thrown in the game, I speak from the double experience of 2 games lotro and aion, in lotro I have been 12 years in aion 7 I am the same person game equal how is it possible that in aion this elite fence all raid have all set and in lotro can not raid, answer in aion taught me to play in raid with a good deal and like me many in lotro left me alone There is no where to learn and if you are not of the 3 kin of the master masters of the game you die. Solution a free raid for all between several servers for people who do not know and want to learn directed by the game itself and with a schedule that directs a gm and teach the g This is called an integrated identity server, so you can not continue a raid like this
    This problem is only going to get much worse given the massive nerf to the highest dps classes being perpetrated under the guise of "class balance".

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    This problem is only going to get much worse given the massive nerf to the highest dps classes being perpetrated under the guise of "class balance".
    The DPS disparity between the classes is the lowest it has been in years. These aren’t changes “under the guise” of class balance; it’s literally class balance.
    ~ Balance is a game of give and take, at the end of the day even Beornings need nerfs. ~

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    This problem is only going to get much worse given the massive nerf to the highest dps classes being perpetrated under the guise of "class balance".
    In a Raid a hunter(even a blueline) will still do more dps then every other class.
    Stop crying!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    In a Raid a hunter(even a blueline) will still do more dps then every other class.
    Stop crying!
    First, I find it interesting that those who support the changes continue to get away with saying things like "crying", "whining", "crybaby", "butt hurt" etc. to those who express objections, yet those who disagree with the changes are penalized for saying the same in return.

    Second, hunter doing more dps than other classes is entirely irrelevant to the point. I do not believe you are correct in your assertion in fact, if one takes away the heartseeker reset bonus though. The last parses I saw posted showed hunters doing about the same as burgs and wardens, and not much more than champs.

    However, you appear to have missed the point entirely. If all of the top dps is nerfed, instances / raids will be much more difficult. It doesn't matter if hunters remain on top by some small amount. The point is raiders will be much less inclined, even less than currently, to take along those who are inexperienced and / or lacking the best gear. There will be less margin for error with the nerfed dps, and the maximum output will be required from every participant. Admittedly the OP is difficult to read, looks like the translation isn't great. However, these changes will further reduce the already limited opportunities for new players to join in and learn to raid, and to earn the better gear from raids.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by rodin12 View Post
    the raid is not completed ... because he does not know and no one teaches him leaves him,
    ...
    There is no where to learn
    I *think* the general gist of this is that LOTRO does not have any suitable area where a new player to the game can learn how to play their class in a group setting. And if this is your point, I agree with you.

    In the early days of the game, there was frequent group content as one leveled up. It was fairly well balanced in that it was not trivial (even for super geared players) yet doable if lead by someone who knew the important mechanics. These group encounters gave folks a way to learn the instance mechanics of the game and how their class operated in a group. This content is gone. And I don't see it coming back.

    Now days, it is possible for a player to level all the way up to the cap without ever joining a single fellowship. The valar things make this even easier. So, now the game has a large percentage of players that have not even seen the games instance mechanics and have never really played their class in a group setting. Some of them may become interested in trying group content. How do they learn?

    In the past, one could reasonably assume that a level capped player knew the basics of instance mechanics and class roles. But now this is an invalid assumption. And it is not the players fault for not knowing these things. It is because the game no longer has any reasonable way for them to learn.

    Featured instances and skirmishes pretty much don't count as 99.9% of the time, there is no communication between players and everyone simply DPSes through the thing as fast as possible ignoring all instance mechanics. The new player learns nothing about the game that would apply to more difficult instances. Tanking does not matter. Healing does not matter. Clearing wounds does not matter. Mob inductions are ignored. Ignore that eye above your head it does not matter. The list goes on and on. All of these things are important to learn for more serious/difficult content. But there is no good place for a player to learn them.

    It used to be the case, that a reasonably patient leader could form a PUG and do an instance while explaining these things to new players. It might take longer but it could be done. And there was a fair chance the group could have some success while learning. I've seen some of these folks try to do this in the group content since Pelenor. It is often painful. Painful to the point many of these leaders just give up on the whole thing. The group more often than not simply hits a wall. Even if they start to follow instructions and learn the mechanics they may not be geared enough to get over the wall. In the end it is frustrating for both the new player and the leader/teacher.

    In my opinion, some kind of goup content needs to exist that can serve as a classroom for such players. An area where the level of gearing is not that important but the instance mechanics ARE important. And I don't think the T1 versions of the last two raids count. How many learning groups got smashed to bits at the first or second boss? I'm not talking about regular raiders. I'm talking about groups of new players being led by an experienced player or two.

    So, maybe something could be done to either T1 versions of future raids, skirmishes, or scaled instances to lower the gearing wall and emphasize the mechanics of the game. Update 23 is suppose to focus on instances. I really think it would be great to have some of the instances configured with new player training in mind.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    Second, hunter doing more dps than other classes is entirely irrelevant to the point. I do not believe you are correct in your assertion in fact, if one takes away the heartseeker reset bonus though. The last parses I saw posted showed hunters doing about the same as burgs and wardens, and not much more than champs.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...07#post7836607

    The link above directs you to a post noting the source and potency of all mitigation debuffs in the game. At the end of said post is a summary table that shows the extent to which each type of mitigation is debuffed: Fire mitigations are debuffed by up to 55% (Fire mitigation debuffs + tactical mitigation debuffs) whilst physical mitigations are only debuffed by up to 35%. This may seem like a measly 20% mitigation difference until you note down the source of the physical mitigation debuffs. The biggest single physical mitigation debuffer is the Beorning, this is not a class that routinely raids outside a single boss where it thrives due to a broken heal mechanic. The other 10-20% comes from a yellow warden (which raids less than Beornings), drop it to red warden and this becomes 5-10% debuffs. Fire mit debuffs come purely from RK's and LM's, both classes are a staple in raids.

    So if you take a normal raid setup you'll find that fire mitigations are debuffed by up to 50% and physical mits are probably debuffed by 5-10%. Therefore classes that can do fire damage will parse significantly higher than classes who do not deal fire damage in a raid setting. So no, Hunters aren't doing the same as burgs/wardens/champs; they're doing much better in raids.


    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    However, you appear to have missed the point entirely. If all of the top dps is nerfed, instances / raids will be much more difficult. It doesn't matter if hunters remain on top by some small amount. The point is raiders will be much less inclined, even less than currently, to take along those who are inexperienced and / or lacking the best gear. There will be less margin for error with the nerfed dps, and the maximum output will be required from every participant. Admittedly the OP is difficult to read, looks like the translation isn't great. However, these changes will further reduce the already limited opportunities for new players to join in and learn to raid, and to earn the better gear from raids.
    DPS has not gone down by a noticeable amount in practice. It's pretty much at the same point as it is on live but now a few other classes are parsing at the same high level.
    ~ Balance is a game of give and take, at the end of the day even Beornings need nerfs. ~

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    First, I find it interesting that those who support the changes continue to get away with saying things like "crying", "whining", "crybaby", "butt hurt" etc. to those who express objections, yet those who disagree with the changes are penalized for saying the same in return.

    Second, hunter doing more dps than other classes is entirely irrelevant to the point. I do not believe you are correct in your assertion in fact, if one takes away the heartseeker reset bonus though. The last parses I saw posted showed hunters doing about the same as burgs and wardens, and not much more than champs.

    However, you appear to have missed the point entirely. If all of the top dps is nerfed, instances / raids will be much more difficult. It doesn't matter if hunters remain on top by some small amount. The point is raiders will be much less inclined, even less than currently, to take along those who are inexperienced and / or lacking the best gear. There will be less margin for error with the nerfed dps, and the maximum output will be required from every participant. Admittedly the OP is difficult to read, looks like the translation isn't great. However, these changes will further reduce the already limited opportunities for new players to join in and learn to raid, and to earn the better gear from raids.
    if you think a 20% dps nerv to blueline hunter (what is more then equalized with the redline hunter buff) got that much impact,

    what should they have done differently in your opinion?

    And how does a raid requires anywhere(even with the upcomming changes) minmaxed dps Output?
    severel raiding kins are doing the 3 bosses in t2c in 30-50% of the given enrage timers, i really dont see how that will change even with the tact dps relict changes and the hunter changes.
    maybe fights will take 30-60sec longer......

    my main point is:
    for everyone except t2c raiders the hunter class changes wont have any Impact at all.
    you can do everything in the game with the same Level of faceroll after,you might do a Little bit less dps that might got a Little Impact on t2c raiding.
    but nothing Major that will exclude anyone since all classes are relativly together even tho rks+hunters will still do the biggest dps in raids due to the fire dmg Output.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    if you think a 20% dps nerv to blueline hunter (what is more then equalized with the redline hunter buff) got that much impact,

    what should they have done differently in your opinion?

    And how does a raid requires anywhere(even with the upcomming changes) minmaxed dps Output?
    severel raiding kins are doing the 3 bosses in t2c in 30-50% of the given enrage timers, i really dont see how that will change even with the tact dps relict changes and the hunter changes.
    maybe fights will take 30-60sec longer......

    my main point is:
    for everyone except t2c raiders the hunter class changes wont have any Impact at all.
    you can do everything in the game with the same Level of faceroll after,you might do a Little bit less dps that might got a Little Impact on t2c raiding.
    but nothing Major that will exclude anyone since all classes are relativly together even tho rks+hunters will still do the biggest dps in raids due to the fire dmg Output.

    Hmmm... Funny I though T2C - C meaning challange - was to challange oneself - if the T2C Raid kins are that awesome - why don't they CHALLENGE themselves with 9 - or even 6 ... oh right ... because T2C raiders - many of whom only raid with themselves - are not about a REAL CHALLENGE - they are about ONLY THEY can do it ... if anyone ELSE can do it, they want a nerf to the classes so again, ONLY THEY can do it ...

    ... and THAT is THE indisputable fact driving ALL of their input ... PERIOD!

    Luin
    Luinmiriel [L115 Elf Hunter], Marisibelle [L115 Burglar], Rosilyn [L106 Captain], Carafindriel [L106 Elf Minstrel], Katellin [L115 Beorning], Vornmiriel [L107 Elf Hunter], Melissabelle [L90 Burglar], Lorindriel [L46 Elf Warden], Luinmirien [L115 High Elf Hunter], Silaeluin [115 High Elf Runekeeper]
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The DPS disparity between the classes is the lowest it has been in years. These aren’t changes “under the guise” of class balance; it’s literally class balance.
    You are wrong. RKS doing 60% of the dps a hunter can do is not balanced. Go back to school.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Trreacherous View Post
    You are wrong. RKS doing 60% of the dps a hunter can do is not balanced. Go back to school.
    On Bullroarer RK's are doing more like 80% of the DPS of the absolute best Hunter's using HS reset set in red line. This hunter set up in certain fights that are non stationary or have high burst damage, such as Dulgabeth T2C and Fingar T2C won't be as viable. RK'S are within 10% of Champions and Wardens. That 10% will be different in a raid due to the fact that Tactical classes pull ahead on statistically higher level fights. Some melee classes have to deal with B/P/E and Resist double checks. My warden has to have 200k finesse in Abyss to not regularly have DoT's resist in Red Line on T2C. Champion red line DPS in abyss is heavily crit reliant and due to the terrible partial BPE's their attacks can get, they will still fall behind significantly.

    So, to counter your rather poorly put together and overtly biased assumption, the classes are actually in a place where they're closer in DPS than they have been for years. For God's sake, a DPS class with 2 In-combat Revives, mitigation Debuffs, and tactically based attacks is already at a massive advantage in terms of utility. There is no way they should also be topping the DPS charts.

    If you had even a modicum of respect for players of other classes, or even minor raiding experience, you wouldn't be here making grandiose claims that have been refuted with actual evidence on other parts of the Bullroarer forums.

    All the spread of misinformation like this does, is perpetuate the problems that currently exist on the Live server causing many classes to be excluded from end game content.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trreacherous View Post
    You are wrong. RKS doing 60% of the dps a hunter can do is not balanced. Go back to school.
    It's not balanced no. It was definitely still class balance work though. Currently there's an issue with tactical damage rating vs physical damage rating that was being exacerbated by the tactical damage relics, removing/nerfing the relics to be more in line with physical classes was the correct first step towards class balance in this regard.

    Unfortunately the follow up steps aren't planned to come at the same time as this initial one.
    ~ Balance is a game of give and take, at the end of the day even Beornings need nerfs. ~

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dervorin View Post
    I *think* the general gist of this is that LOTRO does not have any suitable area where a new player to the game can learn how to play their class in a group setting. And if this is your point, I agree with you.

    In the early days of the game, there was frequent group content as one leveled up. It was fairly well balanced in that it was not trivial (even for super geared players) yet doable if lead by someone who knew the important mechanics. These group encounters gave folks a way to learn the instance mechanics of the game and how their class operated in a group. This content is gone. And I don't see it coming back.

    Now days, it is possible for a player to level all the way up to the cap without ever joining a single fellowship. The valar things make this even easier. So, now the game has a large percentage of players that have not even seen the games instance mechanics and have never really played their class in a group setting. Some of them may become interested in trying group content. How do they learn?

    In the past, one could reasonably assume that a level capped player knew the basics of instance mechanics and class roles. But now this is an invalid assumption. And it is not the players fault for not knowing these things. It is because the game no longer has any reasonable way for them to learn.

    Featured instances and skirmishes pretty much don't count as 99.9% of the time, there is no communication between players and everyone simply DPSes through the thing as fast as possible ignoring all instance mechanics. The new player learns nothing about the game that would apply to more difficult instances. Tanking does not matter. Healing does not matter. Clearing wounds does not matter. Mob inductions are ignored. Ignore that eye above your head it does not matter. The list goes on and on. All of these things are important to learn for more serious/difficult content. But there is no good place for a player to learn them.

    It used to be the case, that a reasonably patient leader could form a PUG and do an instance while explaining these things to new players. It might take longer but it could be done. And there was a fair chance the group could have some success while learning. I've seen some of these folks try to do this in the group content since Pelenor. It is often painful. Painful to the point many of these leaders just give up on the whole thing. The group more often than not simply hits a wall. Even if they start to follow instructions and learn the mechanics they may not be geared enough to get over the wall. In the end it is frustrating for both the new player and the leader/teacher.

    In my opinion, some kind of goup content needs to exist that can serve as a classroom for such players. An area where the level of gearing is not that important but the instance mechanics ARE important. And I don't think the T1 versions of the last two raids count. How many learning groups got smashed to bits at the first or second boss? I'm not talking about regular raiders. I'm talking about groups of new players being led by an experienced player or two.

    So, maybe something could be done to either T1 versions of future raids, skirmishes, or scaled instances to lower the gearing wall and emphasize the mechanics of the game. Update 23 is suppose to focus on instances. I really think it would be great to have some of the instances configured with new player training in mind.

    +1 this
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dervorin View Post
    I *think* the general gist of this is that LOTRO does not have any suitable area where a new player to the game can learn how to play their class in a group setting. And if this is your point, I agree with you.

    In the early days of the game, there was frequent group content as one leveled up. It was fairly well balanced in that it was not trivial (even for super geared players) yet doable if lead by someone who knew the important mechanics. These group encounters gave folks a way to learn the instance mechanics of the game and how their class operated in a group. This content is gone. And I don't see it coming back.

    Now days, it is possible for a player to level all the way up to the cap without ever joining a single fellowship. The valar things make this even easier. So, now the game has a large percentage of players that have not even seen the games instance mechanics and have never really played their class in a group setting. Some of them may become interested in trying group content. How do they learn?

    In the past, one could reasonably assume that a level capped player knew the basics of instance mechanics and class roles. But now this is an invalid assumption. And it is not the players fault for not knowing these things. It is because the game no longer has any reasonable way for them to learn.

    Featured instances and skirmishes pretty much don't count as 99.9% of the time, there is no communication between players and everyone simply DPSes through the thing as fast as possible ignoring all instance mechanics. The new player learns nothing about the game that would apply to more difficult instances. Tanking does not matter. Healing does not matter. Clearing wounds does not matter. Mob inductions are ignored. Ignore that eye above your head it does not matter. The list goes on and on. All of these things are important to learn for more serious/difficult content. But there is no good place for a player to learn them.

    It used to be the case, that a reasonably patient leader could form a PUG and do an instance while explaining these things to new players. It might take longer but it could be done. And there was a fair chance the group could have some success while learning. I've seen some of these folks try to do this in the group content since Pelenor. It is often painful. Painful to the point many of these leaders just give up on the whole thing. The group more often than not simply hits a wall. Even if they start to follow instructions and learn the mechanics they may not be geared enough to get over the wall. In the end it is frustrating for both the new player and the leader/teacher.

    In my opinion, some kind of goup content needs to exist that can serve as a classroom for such players. An area where the level of gearing is not that important but the instance mechanics ARE important. And I don't think the T1 versions of the last two raids count. How many learning groups got smashed to bits at the first or second boss? I'm not talking about regular raiders. I'm talking about groups of new players being led by an experienced player or two.

    So, maybe something could be done to either T1 versions of future raids, skirmishes, or scaled instances to lower the gearing wall and emphasize the mechanics of the game. Update 23 is suppose to focus on instances. I really think it would be great to have some of the instances configured with new player training in mind.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head with your post. There are a lot of occasional raiders out there, that enjoy raids, and would like to do more of them and try to get better at them. I've seen players get into all sorts of trouble even in t1 FI's back at level 105, because, mechanics got them. The problem then was that the group was in such a rush, most didn't even notice a member of the group had been thrown, and they just kept going. No explanations given to the player on what they did wrong, just head down, run mode on. I've been kicked from a simple t1 FI SG run, for stopping to explain to a player why they died - along with the player that died, because, no time for that. My answer was, well, if you need all 6 to be in the boss room in here, I don't know what to say. Unfortunately, not enough of the runs have those sort of mechanics where tier and gear won't save you. SG is one such run, where no matter how well geared the player is, or how skilled they are, even a level 115 player in a level 65 version t1 can die if they don't know they can be thrown out of the tower. Mechanics They have nothing to do with class skill, they have to be learned.

    Instances are tougher since Pelennor, but they are less complex and not nearly as much fun IMO. Morale stacking, hitting as hard and as fast as possible in dps races, with little to no other mechanics to be seen in some runs, and nearly all come with exploitable fights (or trash runs) that were left unfixed for months. They are often fixed by the time occasional players are trying them however.

    In our kin, we do some training runs. We run instances on t1 (on lower level if need be) and we treat it exactly like a t2c and play by the book. It's not quite the same as having the real threats, but it does give some knowledge.

    You'd think in an MMO the objective would be to get as many people grouping up as possible, but I swear, to me, it feels like this game wants a t2c crowd that is as small as it can possibly be.
    Last edited by Arnenna; May 26 2018 at 10:37 PM.
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  15. #15
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    So increase relative T1 difficulty. Problem solved. Double morale pools in T1 and increase damage 50%.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post

    Instances are tougher since Pelennor, but they are less complex and not nearly as much fun IMO. Morale stacking, hitting as hard and as fast as possible in dps races, with little to no other mechanics to be seen in some runs, and nearly all come with exploitable fights (or trash runs) that were left unfixed for months. They are often fixed by the time occasional players are trying them however.
    In generally with ToO, pelennor instances and osgiliath instances are one of the most complex they have done.. To state otherwise is just factually wrong, some might not like that level of increased mechanics but thats personal preference. And none of them require or required morale stacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I but I swear, to me, it feels like this game wants a t2c crowd that is as small as it can possibly be.
    Why? T2CM is extremely accessible compared to most MMOs.... Have you played raiding end game in other pve focused mmos? Most people would consider t2cm quite easy in comparison. And extremely accessible in terms of gear requirements. If there would be difficulty just for small amount of players we would need good 40-50% more morale per mobs and 50-80% more damage from bosses and good half dozen more mechanics per boss... It's not designers fault this game has one of worst player base when it comes to group skill and coordination. Not to mentioning level of individual play which in generally is just awful. Per server basis there are usually about 30-50 competent players when compared to other pve driven mmos, which tells how sad the situation really is. Even among raid groups there are a lot of players who get through with serious carry jobs, who could never complete hardest stuff with that level of play on pve mmos which are group focused with proper hard level tiers to challenge groups.

    Anyway complaining about running with pugs and not being taught instances is pointless. There is reason why people should join proper kinships instead of allowed to have private ones or dead kinships. These instances are explained on internet in extreme depth and if someone doesnt read them these days while wanting to learn mechanics its on them.

    So if there is real problem it truly is on t1 being way too easy. It should be same gap as before level 100. Cant remember exact numbers but like 30% less morale and about as much less damage compared to t2. Thats all there needs to be, since its clear t1 is still way too easy to intented design. If raid does not need damage reduction by lm/burg to be smooth its clear t1 is badly balanced tier.

  16. #16
    Lotro is difficult in comparison with other games I play in aion am railer there I do the whole content am in the elite and here I cannot for that it is it me am the same person and remember(remind) lotro this one my dead man there is no a kin to any in my alone server odisyy and prime first place and this they never take(catch) anybody foreign to it are the elite the mafia as they say

  17. #17
    I've seen Odys and Prime as well as couple other raiding kins advertising in world to fill spots.

    It's a bit unfair to label them as so Rodin, sure when the raid was new, raiding kins were keeping their cards close to their chest in inviting in world.
    But what's the point of having an end game focused raiding kin if you don't rotate your kinnies and try to give them all a spot before worrying about helping out other players on the server that want to raid but choose not to join a raiding kin.

    It also takes alot of dedication on the players part to continually log in for raid times on raid days each week to maintain their spot in raid group, how would you feel if this was you and raid leaders have up your spot to someone out of the kin?
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    I've seen Odys and Prime as well as couple other raiding kins advertising in world to fill spots.

    It's a bit unfair to label them as so Rodin, sure when the raid was new, raiding kins were keeping their cards close to their chest in inviting in world.
    But what's the point of having an end game focused raiding kin if you don't rotate your kinnies and try to give them all a spot before worrying about helping out other players on the server that want to raid but choose not to join a raiding kin.

    It also takes alot of dedication on the players part to continually log in for raid times on raid days each week to maintain their spot in raid group, how would you feel if this was you and raid leaders have up your spot to someone out of the kin?
    Exactly and on top of this many of these kins/groups actively recruit especially after the main raiding has been done (people generally don't recruit during the peak season since gold diggers). So to get into groups is 100% on players who want into them not on already established groups.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    So increase relative T1 difficulty. Problem solved. Double morale pools in T1 and increase damage 50%.




    In generally with ToO, pelennor instances and osgiliath instances are one of the most complex they have done.. To state otherwise is just factually wrong, some might not like that level of increased mechanics but thats personal preference. And none of them require or required morale stacking.



    Why? T2CM is extremely accessible compared to most MMOs.... Have you played raiding end game in other pve focused mmos? Most people would consider t2cm quite easy in comparison. And extremely accessible in terms of gear requirements. If there would be difficulty just for small amount of players we would need good 40-50% more morale per mobs and 50-80% more damage from bosses and good half dozen more mechanics per boss... It's not designers fault this game has one of worst player base when it comes to group skill and coordination. Not to mentioning level of individual play which in generally is just awful. Per server basis there are usually about 30-50 competent players when compared to other pve driven mmos, which tells how sad the situation really is. Even among raid groups there are a lot of players who get through with serious carry jobs, who could never complete hardest stuff with that level of play on pve mmos which are group focused with proper hard level tiers to challenge groups.

    Anyway complaining about running with pugs and not being taught instances is pointless. There is reason why people should join proper kinships instead of allowed to have private ones or dead kinships. These instances are explained on internet in extreme depth and if someone doesnt read them these days while wanting to learn mechanics its on them.

    So if there is real problem it truly is on t1 being way too easy. It should be same gap as before level 100. Cant remember exact numbers but like 30% less morale and about as much less damage compared to t2. Thats all there needs to be, since its clear t1 is still way too easy to intented design. If raid does not need damage reduction by lm/burg to be smooth its clear t1 is badly balanced tier.
    Higher mob morale doesn't make things harder, it just makes the fights longer. Higher morale pools and damage don't make things more interesting, mechanics do. You will never see eye to eye with players that haven't been regular raiders for years, because - you are one. Being taught is not pointless. The player that I gave the cause of death explanation to, could run the instance without dying after the lesson. I think t1 is in a better place now than pre Mordor. It's a bit like driving. When you've been driving regularly for a very long time, you become competent, whereas a learner driver, is still learning.

    But I don't understand part of your post. It's not the developers fault that the game has one of the worst playerbases when it comes to group skill, but it is the fault of t1 instance design. so, who develops those? If not the devs, who? Doesn't make any sense. When you say fault lies in instance design, you ARE blaming the devs, unless you think they don't make them.

    At some point, you're gonna have to step back and realise, that player skill is varied. Just like all kinds of skill that exist, there will always be people who are better at something, than other people. Some take to stuff like a duck to water, and others have to really work hard for the same thing, and some, just never get it. They all use the same money though.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Higher mob morale doesn't make things harder, it just makes the fights longer. Higher morale pools and damage don't make things more interesting, mechanics do. You will never see eye to eye with players that haven't been regular raiders for years, because - you are one. Being taught is not pointless. The player that I gave the cause of death explanation to, could run the instance without dying after the lesson. I think t1 is in a better place now than pre Mordor. It's a bit like driving. When you've been driving regularly for a very long time, you become competent, whereas a learner driver, is still learning.

    But I don't understand part of your post. It's not the developers fault that the game has one of the worst playerbases when it comes to group skill, but it is the fault of t1 instance design. so, who develops those? If not the devs, who? Doesn't make any sense. When you say fault lies in instance design, you ARE blaming the devs, unless you think they don't make them.

    At some point, you're gonna have to step back and realise, that player skill is varied. Just like all kinds of skill that exist, there will always be people who are better at something, than other people. Some take to stuff like a duck to water, and others have to really work hard for the same thing, and some, just never get it. They all use the same money though.
    It does. Having fight last longer than 10s is already meaning fight is harder because you might need healing. Having fights take longer than 2 minutes means it's already harder since you might have been burning cooldowns and be on cooldown on them, thus can't use more of those to survive - automatically harder. Fights need to last certain time to make fights hard. If they don't last enough its automatically easier fight because cooldowns game offers to us. Also damage matters a lot. In T1 raids you are perfectly capable of self healing yourself as a warden or don't need no heals as a guardian doing trash pulls. Damage and morale pools matter, mechanics alone does not make fights hard. What T1 difficulty really was in original design was stripped down mechanics and moderately lower mob statistics.

    See your argument was that they want T2 to be just for small amount of players. Which is of course false when we look other PvE focused MMOs. As I wrote, it's not developers fault these players never even bother reading what their skills do. Having done few T1 abyss pug runs out of curiosity, Valared high elf minstrel threw tantrum to me when I suggested to use bolster courage more. Telling me how he/she knew perfectly well how to heal. Leading to that group to die because minstrel was using major ballads and raise the spirit, chord of salvation as only heals. And that's not the only case, like LM who doesn't debuff or share power to 4 hunters asking for it but throws burning embers. That's not on developers. That's purely on players.

    It doesn't matter if player skill variates. This stuff worked perfectly fine during 75/85 levels. Why not now? Just because they are a bit more challenged does not mean instances are too hard... Is it too much to ask for 6 man to require a healer or debuffer to have a role in a raid? I think not.

  21. #21
    Lotro is difficult in comparison with other games I play in aion am railer there I do the whole content am in the elite and here I cannot for that it is it me am the same person and remember(remind) lotro this one my dead man there is no a kin to any in my alone server odisyy and occupy first place and this they never take(catch) anybody foreign to it are the elite the mafia as they say

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare View Post
    Hmmm... Funny I though T2C - C meaning challange - was to challange oneself - if the T2C Raid kins are that awesome - why don't they CHALLENGE themselves with 9 - or even 6 ... oh right ... because T2C raiders - many of whom only raid with themselves - are not about a REAL CHALLENGE - they are about ONLY THEY can do it ... if anyone ELSE can do it, they want a nerf to the classes so again, ONLY THEY can do it ...

    ... and THAT is THE indisputable fact driving ALL of their input ... PERIOD!

    Luin
    i actually somewhat agree with this

    If odyssy, one of the (if not THE) best raiding kin in the lotro world says Nerf the classes it prolly aint a good idea to nerf the classes. I feel like some raiders have an illusion that the game is too easy because the classes are op, while in fact ssg just sucks at putting out good competitive content. I honestly have come to not care about these class balance patches since new instance content will be coming out soon and we can give feedback that balances that to our class abilities, but i kinda feel like rn the classes are being balance to satisfy pvp which is the worst idea ever

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fraushgrish2 View Post
    i actually somewhat agree with this

    If odyssy, one of the (if not THE) best raiding kin in the lotro world says Nerf the classes it prolly aint a good idea to nerf the classes. I feel like some raiders have an illusion that the game is too easy because the classes are op, while in fact ssg just sucks at putting out good competitive content. I honestly have come to not care about these class balance patches since new instance content will be coming out soon and we can give feedback that balances that to our class abilities, but i kinda feel like rn the classes are being balance to satisfy pvp which is the worst idea ever
    You don't think minstrel is OP in live?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It does. Having fight last longer than 10s is already meaning fight is harder because you might need healing. Having fights take longer than 2 minutes means it's already harder since you might have been burning cooldowns and be on cooldown on them, thus can't use more of those to survive - automatically harder. Fights need to last certain time to make fights hard. If they don't last enough its automatically easier fight because cooldowns game offers to us. Also damage matters a lot. In T1 raids you are perfectly capable of self healing yourself as a warden or don't need no heals as a guardian doing trash pulls. Damage and morale pools matter, mechanics alone does not make fights hard. What T1 difficulty really was in original design was stripped down mechanics and moderately lower mob statistics.

    See your argument was that they want T2 to be just for small amount of players. Which is of course false when we look other PvE focused MMOs. As I wrote, it's not developers fault these players never even bother reading what their skills do. Having done few T1 abyss pug runs out of curiosity, Valared high elf minstrel threw tantrum to me when I suggested to use bolster courage more. Telling me how he/she knew perfectly well how to heal. Leading to that group to die because minstrel was using major ballads and raise the spirit, chord of salvation as only heals. And that's not the only case, like LM who doesn't debuff or share power to 4 hunters asking for it but throws burning embers. That's not on developers. That's purely on players.

    It doesn't matter if player skill variates. This stuff worked perfectly fine during 75/85 levels. Why not now? Just because they are a bit more challenged does not mean instances are too hard... Is it too much to ask for 6 man to require a healer or debuffer to have a role in a raid? I think not.
    All you've described there is players that won't listen to valid instruction. Not all players are like that, in fact, in my experience it's actually quite few, especially after a wipe or two. I've been that hunter screaming out for power, on many occasions, so I know what you're talking about, but when you get a small group of friends working together on a more regular basis, they tend to listen a bit better. The whole game since Mordor has already put t2c out of reach for more players than before it, and that will eventually show in the numbers. The line is very fine on how far they can push that. Too far and the t2c group will be too small, and couple that with upped landscape difficulty, if they increase that too far, they'll have very few casual players left who will be looking to gear for harder content. When everyone stops looking to try, then the game will fall, because the hardcore group will be too small to sustain it alone. I, and quite a few players I know and play with, know when we're going to have time to dip our feet and when we aren't. When we aren't, we don't bother with any of the grinds associated with the top end gear - because we don't need it. Sure, there are some casual players that want that gear, regardless of what their aims are, but that pool will get smaller as the harder stuff becomes out of their reach. With a good way to practise the runs, they may be more inclined to start dipping their feet in, and improving their gear builds and skillset, to try the harder stuff.

    Level 85 cap was my favorite time for instances. Everyone was running them on challenge mode and there was no shortage of players to group with. Level 100 wasn't bad either (with the exception of silly exploits and half baked runs). 105 onward, not so much IMO, too much dps racing and such. Take the first boss of tSS for example. Kill boss, control add waves. it takes about 60 secs to learn the kill order, then you've got it. Not very exciting for the first boss of a 6 man. Would have been better to have those add waves maybe hit a little less, but if a player gets the kill order wrong (or is even targeting the wrong mob without killing it) the mobs get a damage buff or something along those lines. That makes it interesting.
    Last edited by Arnenna; May 27 2018 at 12:07 PM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    The whole game since Mordor has already put t2c out of reach for more players than before it, and that will eventually show in the numbers.
    Find that hard to believe. Throne was notably tougher than Abyss after all, ToO trumps them both. Naerband is tougher than SS but Naerband is just an awful instance that shouldn't have even made it to alpha.

    As far as T2C being "out of reach" goes half of the problem is in the grind to be considered raid ready and the other half is due to small overall server populations. They can't do much for the latter but for the former they really need to work on streamlining LI's and incorporating scrolls/star-lits into the leveling process.
    ~ Balance is a game of give and take, at the end of the day even Beornings need nerfs. ~

 

 
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