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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Flintryth View Post

    All the nerf the burg comments do come from Pvp - and yes I do agree that burgs do a lot pvp wise its the creeps that need buffing to combat this not nerfing of a class
    Logically, it’s easier to nerf 1 (or2) class rather than buffing 6 classes...it should be less work. It happened to hunters in Moria I think.

    All creeps ever get anymore are number changes(if we’re lucky) ie. slight buff to morale or dmg..these are temporary fixes at best. Like my example of BA vs burglar, unless my Morale or damage is boosted significantly it’s not gonna cut it. But if wargs or reaver receive the same level of boost, it would be a different story. This leads to the problem of every class requiring different level of buff, so it loops back to my point, it’s more work

    .tbh I think We need class changes too, but ofc there’s not enough resources (which may Have been an excuse to not working on pvp, rather than actually not having he resources, but at this point after all the (bad) choices ssg:turbine have made, I don’t doubt it is the case right now.)

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    I believe you

    I have some experience in PvMP (Rank 9, I think) but not very much, and not recently. From my time out there, I see all of the points you are making and have made use of them myself.

    That is why I am advocating for a completely different ruleset for Burglars in PvE versus PvMP. The chasm of magnitude and significance between the PvE and PvMP environments with respect to the unique abilities Burglars bring to them is massive. No other class is anywhere near to us in this regard.

    The problem with balance for Burglars is that those same abilities that make us so great in PvP have far less (if any) significance in PvE:

    Being able to sneak up unnoticed against a foe in PvMP? Massive. That same ability in PvE? Virtually irrelevant (save for possible exploiting, which is a whole issue unto itself).

    Touch and Go in PvMP? Ridiculously massive. In PvE? It's fun, I guess, but irrelevant. If a Burglar is in a position where they actually are using Touch and Go in group content, the battle has already gone sideways, and save for maybe surviving for a few extra seconds to give time for the tank to be rezzed, it just means extra time before a wipe and restarting the battle.

    Constant CC in PvMP? Ridiculous. In PvE? All but irrelevant, because the foes you would want to do this do are immune, and the ones susceptible to it are either dead in an instant or can be locked down in more efficient ways.

    The issue with Burglars and overall balance is a very difficult one. It is going to take a lot of very smart people to figure out a solution for Burglars which works for both PvE and PvMP, and which also sees us completely unchanged between the two environments (if a solution exists at all). I think the best thing we can do is be open and honest with ourselves, and with each other, regarding our perspectives on the issue and take great care in explaining those perspectives when we make our arguments.

    You post is an excellent example of that, so thank you
    TnG/ko and stealth both are huge for pve, pve is a lot of content. Constant Cc irrelevant? You couldnt be more wrong... Im constantly tasked take care of several cc targets when I raid on burg and makes fighting alone extremely easy when you can keep easily 4-5 mobs mezzed.

    And this is while ignoring which huge benefit burg gives to a group as pure damage class and even greater as debuff specced. They are cc/debuff class and them making one of highest damage as such class is not ideal.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    What's the problem here?
    Someone pointed me to this and the DPS Hierarchy thread. After reading through both of them, I was frustrated by two things:

    - In both threads, training dummy parses were being used as evidence without any pushback as to why they are not well suited to conveying the full picture of how damage is dealt in group content.
    - In this thread, arguments for Burglars needing to be nerfed were largely being made due to our performance in PvMP but without making mention of that fact, thereby conflating issues that shouldn't be.

    I'm not even going to bother with the Hierarchy thread, as training dummy parsing is not going to be dislodged from its pedestal, and it is more accurate for the other classes than it is for Burglars. There are many unique factors to the Burglar that make this measure less accurate, and anyone having knowledge of the class and who is being honest with themselves can identify them. It is too late for me to go into more detail right now

    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    TnG/ko and stealth both are huge for pve, pve is a lot of content. Constant Cc irrelevant? You couldnt be more wrong... Im constantly tasked take care of several cc targets when I raid on burg and makes fighting alone extremely easy when you can keep easily 4-5 mobs mezzed.

    And this is while ignoring which huge benefit burg gives to a group as pure damage class and even greater as debuff specced. They are cc/debuff class and them making one of highest damage as such class is not ideal.
    There is a difference in something being useful and something being possible. If you are putting yourself into situations where you need to keep 4-5 mobs mezzed, you are doing so intentionally, because you can. It is certainly not the most efficient way to battle. This does not make the ability to mez those foes useful, but merely possible.

    The same is true for TnG and KO. When solo, you are only using those skills because you can, or you royally screwed up . In group content, if you are using those skills, you are only using them because you can, or the group royally screwed up. In group content, the only real benefit from this is that you could potentially stay alive long enough for the healer to rez the tank, if the only foe you are fighting is the one on you, and you can keep it off the healer long enough. That does not make those skills all that useful, in my opinion, but merely allows something to be possible which could have already been done anyway, if you were either better or chose to be more efficient at what you were doing.

    I can count two situations when I have purposefully used Provoke/Mez in group content. One was the troll that throws the rocks in Harlond. One time when we were there, I said, "Hey, let me see if I can stun the troll every time he gets ready to throw a rock, just for fun." It was kind of fun, and we did just fine. We did it that way one more time, I think, and then the next time everyone said, "Eh, let's just blend them down." It was possible to constant cc the troll, but I would not say it was useful.

    The other time is for the Assassins and Runewarders in Abyss. I do it because it is asked of me, but I don't think it is the most efficient way to deal with those battles. Part of the issue with Burglars is that, in order for us to be at our best, we have to force the other classes into playstyles that make them not their best. Burglars want to sneak up to foes, but that causes everyone else to have to wait around doing nothing. Burglars want to stun foes, but Champions always want to toot their own horns, and they can do it with a single skill, so foes are often immune. Burglars want to CC foes, but that crimps AoE. There is always an uneasiness between the Burglar and the other classes because of this.

    Personally, I do not like to impose my playstyle onto a sizeable group of others, so I do not push for things to go my way. If your raid leader and kinfolk are open to playing in a style that better suits Burglars, that is wonderful.

    But I do not think that makes Burglars useful per se. It merely provides another possible way of dealing with the task at hand.
    Last edited by Valkrist; May 23 2018 at 12:23 AM.


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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    Someone pointed me to this and the DPS Hierarchy thread. After reading through both of them, I was frustrated by two things:

    - In both threads, training dummy parses were being used as evidence without any pushback as to why they are not well suited to conveying the full picture of how damage is dealt in group content.
    - In this thread, arguments for Burglars needing to be nerfed were largely being made due to our performance in PvMP but without making mention of that fact, thereby conflating issues that shouldn't be.

    I'm not even going to bother with the Hierarchy thread, as training dummy parsing is not going to be dislodged from its pedestal, and it is more accurate for the other classes than it is for Burglars. There are many unique factors to the Burglar that make this measure less accurate, and anyone having knowledge of the class and who is being honest with themselves can identify them. It is too late for me to go into more detail right now
    Like any other class... You think champion doesn't suffer from same stuff as burglar? But instead of having significant CDs to protect yourself, they just go splat... And they suffer far greater amount of partials than burglar. Or RK forced to move constantly during the fight? Training dummy evidence is excellent when used with context of buffing capability of class. If class like burg does SIGNIFICANTLY more DPS than champion, why on earth you would take champion as DPS over burglar in any kind of boss fights? You wouldn't... Arguments are because they were significantly higher on DPS than any other class in the game (now things ofc changed a bit with buffed hunter) as no outside source buffing. It's not more accurate for other classes than burg, they all are in same boat. Facts are we constantly use 2 burgs in raids. Never 2 champions. Even one is being carried.

    There is a difference in something being useful and something being possible. If you are putting yourself into situations where you need to keep 4-5 mobs mezzed, you are doing so intentionally, because you can. It is certainly not the most efficient way to battle. This does not make the ability to mez those foes useful, but merely possible.
    False like I said. I constantly kept 2-5 mobs mezzed on trash pulls as burglar during our Abyss progression. Having ability to mez several targets in matter of 2-3 seconds is EXTREMELY valuable for real PvE content. We aren't speaking of doing CoS on lvl 105, because at that point there are far worse classes than burglar.

    The same is true for TnG and KO. When solo, you are only using those skills because you can, or you royally screwed up . In group content, if you are using those skills, you are only using them because you can, or the group royally screwed up. In group content, the only real benefit from this is that you could potentially stay alive long enough for the healer to rez the tank, if the only foe you are fighting is the one on you, and you can keep it off the healer long enough. That does not make those skills all that useful, in my opinion, but merely allows something to be possible which could have already been done anyway, if you were either better or chose to be more efficient at what you were doing.
    Like every other classes cooldowns....? Are you kidding me... These are meant to be used when #### hits the fan or prevent it hitting the fan... Those are also really good in group content when used at right time. Even must use on troll pulls in abyss if you want to stay alive. Again champ goes splat, burg can prevent it with usage of CDs. Not to mentioning TnG is extremely valuable for no tank setups in instances (which again works in CoS T2CM for example).

    I can count two situations when I have purposefully used Provoke/Mez in group content. One was the troll that throws the rocks in Harlond. One time when we were there, I said, "Hey, let me see if I can stun the troll every time he gets ready to throw a rock, just for fun." It was kind of fun, and we did just fine. We did it that way one more time, I think, and then the next time everyone said, "Eh, let's just blend them down." It was possible to constant cc the troll, but I would not say it was useful.

    The other time is for the Assassins and Runewarders in Abyss. I do it because it is asked of me, but I don't think it is the most efficient way to deal with those battles. Part of the issue with Burglars is that, in order for us to be at our best, we have to force the other classes into playstyles that make them not their best. Burglars want to sneak up to foes, but that causes everyone else to have to wait around doing nothing. Burglars want to stun foes, but Champions always want to toot their own horns, and they can do it with a single skill, so foes are often immune. Burglars want to CC foes, but that crimps AoE. There is always an uneasiness between the Burglar and the other classes because of this.

    Personally, I do not like to impose my playstyle onto a sizeable group of others, so I do not push for things to go my way. If your raid leader and kinfolk are open to playing in a style that better suits Burglars, that is wonderful.

    But I do not think that makes Burglars useful per se. It merely provides another possible way of dealing with the task at hand.
    Well skipping fights with exploiting flags is rarely good argument (as can be read in between lines). If you would do maggot pulls you would be forced to use provoke and riddle mez for smooth completion on several targets, significantly harder fights that anyone who has done pulls legit would mention over cargul/dwarf pulls as burglar, but there are more fights in recent history like in SL or TSS, or DOS where it was good idea to use CC if it was available. It's not classes fault you are in group that can't coordinate CC and champs randomly stun opponents and tanks doesn't move tankable targets away from CC'ed targets. And there is nothing wrong at all to provide alternative ways to complete something. As far as I'm concerned that is just the fun of the class. Just like LM providing alternative ways to complete something. Trying to play it like pure DPS and just hammer head against the wall is wrong way to play the burg.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    First off, let me just say that I think we agree on a lot more than you may think
    Alright, happy to hear that.

    Though not here, unfortunately. My point was that beating up the piñata that is a training dummy only provides insight into how classes fare at beating up the piñata that is a training dummy, in not just a safe environment but an immobile one, regardless of whether it is your first time doing it or not. We should not make value judgements regarding how well classes fare in situations of significance by testing how well they fare in completely different circumstances with no significance. Period.
    That's not really true, though. Champs and burgs benefit from the exact same buffs in a group setting. If champion DPS is significantly lower than that of burgs, there's a problem. If I said the same about Hunters, you would have a point. Their DPS is enhanced by LM debuffs, RK debuffs, plus (almost) all the stuff that burglars benefit from. However, in the case of champions, as I said, they benefit from the same things.

    In short: training dummies most certainly do serve a purpose, and most certainly can be used to compare certain classes (no not all classes, I'll admit that).

    When I played her, my captain could heal many instances that a lot of minstrels and runekeepers I knew could not. Should we conclude that Captains are better healers than Minstrels or Runekeepers? Of course not, even though the circumstances in which this happened are far more applicable to evaluating value then battling a training dummy.
    Healing and DPS aren't the same thing by any stretch of the imagination. In the case of DPS, the only potential difference between a dummy parse and a boss fight is movement, which, again, affects champs and burgs equally. It even affects RKs to a degree, and red line hunters.

    I am not as qualified to judge as many, but I definitely believe it is and agree with you wholeheartedly.

    I won't rehash the points I made in response to wretchesandkings, but I would not mind seeing Provoke/Mez done away with, particularly in red line. Gambler needs all the help it can get, but even there it is kind of silly. At least you are sacrificing a good amount of damage to do it in that line.
    Yes, I agree, but when not in blue line, there's no reason why burgs should have access to amazing DPS, and amazing CC capabilities.

    Let me reverse things on you. Given the things you mentioned above:

    Are you really going to tell me that those same things have anywhere near the same relevance in PvE as they do in PvMP? Be honest
    The exact same relevance? No. But they're definitely very important, depending on the kind of content you participate in. The potency of Touch and Go and Knives Out is the exact same, though. Whether it's relevant or not.

    Of course they do not. You probably know that the miss chance from Dust does not work on bosses in PvE, but it is worth mentioning just in case. It works on trash mobs, but then again, there is a reason they are called 'trash' mobs, right?

    If we adjust Burglars down for all of those things due to their influence in PvMP, wouldn't you admit that will adversely affect us in PvE where these things have far less significance?
    I would never say that Burglars have to be nerfed in PvE because of how strong they are in PvMP. That's now how this game works, or how the devs operate. What I am saying, is that many of the things that make Burglars overpowered in PvMP, also make them too strong in PvE, albeit to a lesser extent. Nerfing some of the aspects that make them overpowered in PvMP would barely affect them in PvE, by your own admittance, and hence you shouldn't have any issue with those changes. Other aspects are too strong in both PvE and PvP (think of Reveal Weakness, for example).

    So yes, they would adversely affect you in PvE, but that's also justified. In what area do you think it would not be justified?
    I think the duration of Touch and Go should be reduced to 10 seconds, and Ready and Able should be removed.

    When you make statements like:

    Are you certain there is not a little bit of bias sneaking in there? Should we really balance how classes do damage in PvE based on how they do damage in PvMP, two completely different circumstances which call for completely different tactics and strategy?
    I'm not certain. And I think you misconstrued what I said. I didn't say classes should be balanced in PvE based on how much damage they do in PvMP. I said that, if a class does broken damage in PvMP, chances are the damage is also broken from a PvE perspective. I never said it was certain, and I never said class balance should be based upon the damage in PvMP. I did say that, in this case, it's pretty obvious that the damage is too high in PvE as well as PvMP.

    I think we are all prone to bias, no matter how well intentioned we are. Like I said with wretchesandkings, I think we need to be both open and honest, with ourselves and each other, with respect to our perspectives, for what it is we are arguing, and why we are doing so. I think we need to be very careful about bringing misleading information to the debate, like conveying far more significance to training dummy parses that they deserve.
    Training dummy parses aren't misleading information. I think you should be more careful with how you use the expression "misleading".

    My honest opinion is that, given the unique qualities of Burglars with respect to the PvMP environment, there is likely no solution (that does not involve two separate rulesets) that can bring us into balance regarding both PvE and PvMP simultaneously.
    Yes there is. Nerf the defensive capabilities (you already said you only need those if you royally screw up), nerf the CC capabilities in red line, remove Coup de Grace and replace it with something that offers more consistent damage, rather than high burst damage. Also move more damage from Cunning Attack to critical chain skills. Nerf Reveal Weakness because it's too strong in PvE and PvMP. Then, normalise the damage so that it's on par with that of other classes.

    Hopefully, someone can come up with a solution. My best suggestion is a practical one, because the developers are obviously not going to essentially create a mirror class just for Burglars. What if Burglars had a constant overall debuff on their damage while in PvMP? What that percentage should be would decided by those with far more knowledge than I with respect to PvMP, but it could be a more simple way to bring both aspects of the class into a semblance of balance.
    I both agree, and disagree. Mostly, because of the CC/defensive cooldowns. Those would remain the same. They're a significant problem, though, and need to be adjusted. Therefore, this solution wouldn't be good enough.

    I want all classes to be on par with one another, too
    Perhaps you could start by showing that you recognise that burglars are overperforming when compared to the majority of the other classes, then. Hunters are an exception. They're also overperforming. But purely in the damage department.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post

    And is PvMP not an aspect of this game? I'm pretty sure it is. It's one of the very few things that people keep coming back to, expansion after expansion. In PvE, the cool downs are still far too strong. Are you really going to tell me that you do not think that
    1min of 50% evade chance
    1min of 50% evade chance when stunned
    20s of 80% incoming melee damage reduction
    permanent 36.2%(?) miss chance debuff

    every 5 minutes is not overpowered? I was courteous enough to assume that you agree with me on this front. Same with the (near) permanent CC lockdown. Maybe it's not useful to you. Well, in that case, you shouldn't have any issues with it being nerfed, right?

    I'm curious what you are fighting in PVE as to need every single on of your cooldowns twice. Yes, they are very good survivablilty skills, but they arent meant to be spammed especially in pve. As to your "ridiculous burst" I 100% agree. The best fix, in my opinion, is just removing CDG all together or at the very least disabled in pvmp like song of distraction or any other locked skill. Burgs would still have a good opener but they wouldnt be one shotting everything under the sun.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBeret92 View Post
    I'm curious what you are fighting in PVE as to need every single on of your cooldowns twice. Yes, they are very good survivablilty skills, but they arent meant to be spammed especially in pve.
    At what point was it implied that "I need" every single cooldown twice? I only said you have access to every single cool down twice every 5 minutes. And that's ridiculous.

  8. #33
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    Maybe the issue isn't really the skills and damage the Burg has and no one has actually made a point of saying anything about this..... but more so the way the trait tree system allows a burg to dive so far down into the gambler line while as a red line.

    Now this can actually be said for many of the classes In the game due to the amount of trait point gained now

  9. Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Propaganda
    With all due respect, your bias is so evident that you are unwittingly making your own arguments against yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    False like I said. I constantly kept 2-5 mobs mezzed on trash pulls as burglar during our Abyss progression. Having ability to mez several targets in matter of 2-3 seconds is EXTREMELY valuable for real PvE content.
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It's not classes fault you are in group that can't coordinate CC and champs randomly stun opponents and tanks doesn't move tankable targets away from CC'ed targets. And there is nothing wrong at all to provide alternative ways to complete something. As far as I'm concerned that is just the fun of the class.
    You are correct in that there is nothing wrong about providing alternative ways to complete something. But, as I said before, that does not make something useful. It just provides an alternative method.

    All damage done in a battle is useful. Why?

    Because all foes need to be defeated in a battle in order to win the battle.

    Is all CC done in a battle useful? Of course not. Why?

    Because all foes do not need to be CC'd in order to win the battle.

    You constantly keep 2-5 mobs mezzed on trash pulls in Abyss. That's great. I am glad you feel like you are useful. I don't do that, and we get through those battles just the same (and more quickly, because CC prolongs battles). CC, for its own sake, has no intrinsic value.

    There are no 3-person instances that require CC. There are no 6-person instances that require CC. You could probably even argue there are no raid battles that require CC, though there are some battles made easier by it.

    If we want to have an honest discussion about the relative power of the classes and how to balance them, the very foundation for that discussion is a dispassionate assessment of the components each class brings to the table. There is no point in continuing the discussion because you are either unable or unwilling to do this.

    That's sound pretty harsh, and I am sorry, but it needs to be said. Just shouting 'I mez 5 mobs in Abyss! I mez 5 mobs in Abyss!" has no meaning and does not further the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Alright, happy to hear that.
    It is very easy to conflate things. I was very careful not to voice an opinion one way or another on the strength of Burglars currently, and if you were to go back and look at everything I posted, you will find this is true. The reason I stepped into this discussion is because I wanted to lobby for a dispassionate analysis of the facts and a clearer understanding of the limitations of some of the tools people use to make judgements, like training dummy parses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    That's not really true, though. Champs and burgs benefit from the exact same buffs in a group setting. If champion DPS is significantly lower than that of burgs, there's a problem. If I said the same about Hunters, you would have a point. Their DPS is enhanced by LM debuffs, RK debuffs, plus (almost) all the stuff that burglars benefit from. However, in the case of champions, as I said, they benefit from the same things.

    In short: training dummies most certainly do serve a purpose, and most certainly can be used to compare certain classes (no not all classes, I'll admit that).
    This is partially true but not complete. Champions get the advantage of these buffs against multiple foes at once, something clearly not measured by a training dummy parse. Training dummies serve a purpose, but just throwing out numbers from a single-target parse in a completely safe and immobile situation only scratches the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Healing and DPS aren't the same thing by any stretch of the imagination. In the case of DPS, the only potential difference between a dummy parse and a boss fight is movement, which, again, affects champs and burgs equally.
    This just is not true. I play a Champion, though I never admit to it because, until very recently, Champions were very, very strong, and I would never be able to get into groups as a Burglar if people knew I had a Champion as well. Having done the same instances with both, I could not even begin to count the myriad of ways Champion can contribute in these situations where Burglars cannot. Champions can break roots and stuns far more often, Champions have a longer reach even with single target and can also AoE when further away and still do damage. Champions have Sprint to move more quickly. Champions do not lose positional bonuses like Burglars when not in position, and so on.

    The real danger of training dummy parses is the temptation to brush the things those parses do not measure under the carpet. "Oh, a little movement here, a little there? It all evens out." We want simplicity. We want to boil down the complex into a simple measurement.

    The problem is that just is not how it works in real battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Yes, I agree, but when not in blue line, there's no reason why burgs should have access to amazing DPS, and amazing CC capabilities.
    I think CC is vastly overrated in PvE, as I said to slipperi above. We need to give credit for it, but only as much as it is due. Personally, I would love to see Burglars return to our roots as a CC/Debuffing class, but those things need to have significance and be useful in things besides T2 raids, or Burglars will return to being the outcasts they once were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Training dummy parses aren't misleading information. I think you should be more careful with how you use the expression "misleading".
    I stand by this. SSG could put out a new raid every month (maybe every week) if they did not bother taking the time creating, coding, balancing, and implementing the mechanics that make raiding a vastly different experience than training dummy battles. In the same way, we should not be simplifying our analysis of those battles because it is more convenient to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Perhaps you could start by showing that you recognise that burglars are overperforming when compared to the majority of the other classes, then. Hunters are an exception. They're also overperforming. But purely in the damage department.
    It's that simple, isn't it? "Believe what I believe, do my bidding, and prove your sincerity in a single stroke."

    No thanks


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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    With all due respect, your bias is so evident that you are unwittingly making your own arguments against yourself:


    You are correct in that there is nothing wrong about providing alternative ways to complete something. But, as I said before, that does not make something useful. It just provides an alternative method.
    What? How you make worm pulls in abyss t2 smooth on first times? It's absolute #### show without burglar CC. There is no real alternatives on progression of such things. Burglar is must have. You can't arguably even progress those parts without strong CC. To even reach first boss. We even used double burglars initially with LM to pass them. Absolutely needed that CC.

    All damage done in a battle is useful. Why?


    Because all foes need to be defeated in a battle in order to win the battle.

    Is all CC done in a battle useful? Of course not. Why?

    Because all foes do not need to be CC'd in order to win the battle.
    Both are extremely valuable, unreplaceable. Burglar is by far highest support DPS. Other support is not even close. There are multiple oneshot mobs that keeping perma CC is way more valuable than having extra DPS class (which would just nerf real DPS, because one yellow burglar is stronger than extra DPS class).


    You constantly keep 2-5 mobs mezzed on trash pulls in Abyss. That's great. I am glad you feel like you are useful. I don't do that, and we get through those battles just the same (and more quickly, because CC prolongs battles). CC, for its own sake, has no intrinsic value.

    There are no 3-person instances that require CC. There are no 6-person instances that require CC. You could probably even argue there are no raid battles that require CC, though there are some battles made easier by it.

    If we want to have an honest discussion about the relative power of the classes and how to balance them, the very foundation for that discussion is a dispassionate assessment of the components each class brings to the table. There is no point in continuing the discussion because you are either unable or unwilling to do this.

    That's sound pretty harsh, and I am sorry, but it needs to be said. Just shouting 'I mez 5 mobs in Abyss! I mez 5 mobs in Abyss!" has no meaning and does not further the discussion.
    This makes me question have you done T2CM of abyss or even set foot in. Because to do progression properly (getting carried 6 months after the release is different thing) it's absolutely required to CC several targets during the raid. Not to mentioning burglar is arguably about as valuable as LM is for the raid. unreplaceable. Not to mentioning it makes me question have you done TSS or naerband T2CM or other such instances on lvl 115. CC in there is absolutely relevant on certain parts of the instance.
    Last edited by siipperi; May 24 2018 at 10:07 AM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    What? How you make worm pulls in abyss t2 smooth on first times? It's absolute #### show without burglar CC. There is no real alternatives on progression of such things. Burglar is must have. You can't arguably even progress those parts without strong CC. To even reach first boss. We even used double burglars initially with LM to pass them. Absolutely needed that CC.



    Both are extremely valuable, unreplaceable. Burglar is by far highest support DPS. Other support is not even close. There are multiple oneshot mobs that keeping perma CC is way more valuable than having extra DPS class (which would just nerf real DPS, because one yellow burglar is stronger than extra DPS class).




    This makes me question have you done T2CM of abyss or even set foot in. Because to do progression properly (getting carried 6 months after the release is different thing) it's absolutely required to CC several targets during the raid. Not to mentioning burglar is arguably about as valuable as LM is for the raid. unreplaceable. Not to mentioning it makes me question have you done TSS or naerband T2CM or other such instances on lvl 115. CC in there is absolutely relevant on certain parts of the instance.


    We used no burglar CC for worms, there is no real need to use that CC there, you can pass it without any problems just with LM debuffs.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    What? How you make worm pulls in abyss t2 smooth on first times? It's absolute #### show without burglar CC. There is no real alternatives on progression of such things. Burglar is must have. You can't arguably even progress those parts without strong CC. To even reach first boss. We even used double burglars initially with LM to pass them. Absolutely needed that CC.
    Ow , you mean the pulls that 99% of the playerbase exploits and passes through ?

    How do you expect him or anyone else to know ? ^^

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    We used no burglar CC for worms, there is no real need to use that CC there, you can pass it without any problems just with LM debuffs.
    And FM supplicants and tank fingar behind statue I assume?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    It is very easy to conflate things. I was very careful not to voice an opinion one way or another on the strength of Burglars currently, and if you were to go back and look at everything I posted, you will find this is true. The reason I stepped into this discussion is because I wanted to lobby for a dispassionate analysis of the facts and a clearer understanding of the limitations of some of the tools people use to make judgements, like training dummy parses.
    As I said, the way that burglar DPS on dummies translates to boss fights is completely analogous to the way it does for champions. If anything, burglars benefit, because they bypass more mitigations.

    This is partially true but not complete. Champions get the advantage of these buffs against multiple foes at once, something clearly not measured by a training dummy parse. Training dummies serve a purpose, but just throwing out numbers from a single-target parse in a completely safe and immobile situation only scratches the surface.
    I'm obviously talking about red line champions, just like I'm talking about red line burglars.

    This just is not true. I play a Champion, though I never admit to it because, until very recently, Champions were very, very strong, and I would never be able to get into groups as a Burglar if people knew I had a Champion as well. Having done the same instances with both, I could not even begin to count the myriad of ways Champion can contribute in these situations where Burglars cannot. Champions can break roots and stuns far more often, Champions have a longer reach even with single target and can also AoE when further away and still do damage. Champions have Sprint to move more quickly. Champions do not lose positional bonuses like Burglars when not in position, and so on.
    All of which are minor differences, that do not account for a 15% disparity in dummy parses. Also, now you're comparing "Champions in instances" to "Burglars in instances", where I was originally talking about boss fights (i.e. in raids), where half of this is irrelevant.

    The real danger of training dummy parses is the temptation to brush the things those parses do not measure under the carpet. "Oh, a little movement here, a little there? It all evens out." We want simplicity. We want to boil down the complex into a simple measurement.

    The problem is that just is not how it works in real battles.
    Sure, you're right. Just wait until this update hits the live servers, and observe the results. Do you think champions will come out ahead of burglars in raids? Be honest.

    I think CC is vastly overrated in PvE, as I said to slipperi above. We need to give credit for it, but only as much as it is due. Personally, I would love to see Burglars return to our roots as a CC/Debuffing class, but those things need to have significance and be useful in things besides T2 raids, or Burglars will return to being the outcasts they once were.
    CC is clearly not overrated in certain raid content, but if it's overrated to you, then it's not a problem if it's going to be nerfed (which it should), right? It wouldn't really negatively affect you, anyway. Meanwhile, it would greatly benefit PvMP.

    It's that simple, isn't it? "Believe what I believe, do my bidding, and prove your sincerity in a single stroke."

    No thanks
    Well that's mildly disappointing, then. If you truly analised class performance objectively, you would clearly come to the conclusion that burglars overperform in almost every regard. I'm not trying to get you to do anything for me, I'm just asking you to assess the situation objectively.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    CC is clearly not overrated in certain raid content, but if it's overrated to you, then it's not a problem if it's going to be nerfed (which it should), right? It wouldn't really negatively affect you, anyway. Meanwhile, it would greatly benefit PvMP.
    This is pretty good point. I'm here fighting for burglars and their importance to CC and groups success and people dismiss CC being useless. So ye sure remove it since it's irrelevant by all accounts! Then we should just look it being pure DPS class, which it's extremely strong at which point questions are. Is it too strong DPS and is buffing it provides too strong for DPS class?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    We used no burglar CC for worms, there is no real need to use that CC there, you can pass it without any problems just with LM debuffs.
    And FM supplicants and tank fingar behind statue I assume?
    Just because siipperi needs burglar for worms, means that EVERYONE else has to otherwise they are exploiting. Seems legit man.

    I suggest teaching your group's LM how to be more effective.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hejazia.Arkenstone View Post
    Just because siipperi needs burglar for worms, means that EVERYONE else has to otherwise they are exploiting. Seems legit man.

    I suggest teaching your group's LM how to be more effective.
    Maybe they should have used burg to get OC on arkenstone? Just a suggestion! But I didn't mention exploits anywhere, or would you know better? Anyway progression thread was amusing.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Maybe they should have used burg to get OC on arkenstone? Just a suggestion! But I didn't mention exploits anywhere, or would you know better? Anyway progression thread was amusing.
    They had burglar when they got OC, regardless of where that OC came from.


  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hejazia.Arkenstone View Post
    They had burglar when they got OC, regardless of where that OC came from.
    So burglar and its CC and buffing potential was valuable? Good! Isn't that point of this discussion? Not rub their egos?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    So burglar and its CC and buffing potential was valuable? Good! Isn't that point of this discussion? Not rub their egos?
    You're talking about crawlers, and said that you needed TWO burglars to pass them, which to me is absolutely ridiculous since one LM can do that job. I'm not arguing against the CC and buffing potential, I'm saying that your example was just silly.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    And FM supplicants and tank fingar behind statue I assume?

    Yes, lore master can indeed CC supplicants in boss 1, you know very well it's possible, but you don't play with competent LMs enough to see it.

    So just to feed your ego, i decided to post this boss 1 pug run I did on my LM today (btw i didn't play LM for 3 weeks)



  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by wretchesandkings View Post
    Sounds like you don’t play your burglar pvp, but that’s ok, I don’t pve anymore so I don’t know how burgs function there. But to put it into perspective, I have nightmares fighting burglars in pvp. Cdg alone takes away more than 3quarters my health, if not completely one shot me. If I survive cdg, i’d Have too little morale left to deal significant damage, plus burglars have skills like touch and go, or that stun removal skill that adds a 50% evade, so effectively I can’t stun burglars (one of my main defence mechanism). Other classes may fare better, but I play blackarrow so I literally have no chance against them. No, I’m not exaggerating, no amount of “get better at your class” is gonna do it.
    I would say we should ask burglars who pve and pvp for input, but then again...I’ve had rank 15 burglar one shot me. He’s definitely not doing it for renown, so i guess he enjoys playing the role of bully. So here’s the problem: if you say burglars are ok in pve, I’ll take your word for it. But burglars are definitely not ok in pvp. And I don’t expect burg pvper (like the said r15) to be completely honest about it, because well, power corrupts.
    I'm not close to r15, but have 1shotted my share of BA's. The whole Aim>cdg from stealth thing is used almost exclusively in pvmp and is not needed or even practical in pve content. There are several ways to limit Burgs one-shot capabilities in pvmp. They could make 'cdg' not useable from stealth, they could give it a morale threshold like a merciful shot/strike, they could make it a finisher in the 'crit chain' rotation, or have the 105%-130% damage bonus' given from stealth only apply to 'cunning attack', 'surprise strike' and 'imp. feint attack'. My preference would be for it to require a moral threshold, this would ensure that it is used as a finishing skill, not an opener. I believe this to be the original intention of the skill, if there was one, as you automatically enter stealth and purge movement debuffs if your opponent dies within a few seconds of use.

  23. #48
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    Reduce Freepside to 55 trait points as a permanent cap, no more adding trait points.

    One simple act.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavileRow View Post
    Reduce Freepside to 55 trait points as a permanent cap, no more adding trait points.

    One simple act.
    This is actually true. This would immediately solve many, many problems.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    And FM supplicants and tank fingar behind statue I assume?
    Can we all pls stop this assumtption that all raiders exploit the hell out of the raid? Like the raid is already less then an hour long and it’s easy as hell I haven’t used any of these exploits since the first time I got the challenger title and I’ve never bugged the supplicants what’s the point? Also there are exploit spot for both the first and second boss yet I never use them, maybe just to troll elze when we wipe

 

 
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