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  1. #1

    Burgler Feedback thread

    Hey everyone

    Even tho ist not listed in the br patchnotes of round 2 the burgler dps skills got reduced.
    To let that not Sound negative i rather call it Balance because i appreciate it,at least if it was intended.

    my numbers:

    Provoke: Dmg is same,only low end dmg got a 7% nerv.
    Cunning Attack: not changed.
    Double Edged Strike:7% on the first hit and 4% for the second hit.
    Fain Attack:15% nerv.
    Exposed Throat:21% nerv.
    Coup de grace:21% nerv on all 3 hits.
    Stab:24% nerv.
    Suprise Strike:21% nerv.
    Burglers Advantage:8% nerv.
    Flashing Blade:14% on the first hit and 26% on the second hit.

    Bleeds didnt changed aswell.

    Impact on dps:

    On the br dummy my average dps went down from 63-65k(first build) to 58-60k(second build).

    my opnion:
    i like those changes,specially the cdg nerv.
    In generel it puts the burg more in Balance with other classes(at least with champ and warden since they all dont benefit from fire dmg).

    I just hope you guys didnt nerv the burg for that % and gonna do the same buffs with the burgler class Balance and call it:"hey we did some amazing changes".

  2. #2
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    I really hope this will not be the case....I've spent a lot of time and effort getting my Burg up.
    Slimm Pickens (115 Burg) Matel Stormcrowe (105 Lore Master)
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorainoakenshield View Post
    I really hope this will not be the case....I've spent a lot of time and effort getting my Burg up.
    why?
    in my opinion a 10% dps loss is not the end of the world.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorainoakenshield View Post
    I really hope this will not be the case....I've spent a lot of time and effort getting my Burg up.
    I've never played burg in my life, and on BR I do the same DPS that I do on my champion. I'm pretty sure burgs will be just fine.

  5. #5
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    It's not build to build change but from live to beta when they altered LIs. So no build to build dps drops.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It's not build to build change but from live to beta when they altered LIs. So no build to build dps drops.
    are you sure there?
    i am 99% sure my dmg and dps was way higher last br build,the only Thing i didnt compared was tooltips from build 1-2.

  7. #7
    Can confirm Burglar dmg got a nerf since BR update 1. Allthough it's really wierd they didn't say anything about that in patch notes.

    Now for the balancing, Burglar seems OK at current levels BR update 2. Ofc with burglar mark being that strong, it will fall behind Champion and Warden with quite abit in PVE situations, but burglar will always be welcome because of Revealing Mark being that strong. Also if we loose the ability to use BB-set with that insane crit chance + crit magnitude bonus. Burg DPS will fall even more from what the parsing we did on BR.

    Burglar is not getting any class re-work for now by the looks of it, but it would be nice if burg actually had stronger dmg on skills, and got mark nerfed to 10%. Also nerfing positional by abit, since damage is trash when being in front. But ye, that's for another time i guess.

    For the DPS, i did 56,7k as my highest parse on hobbit burglar here on BR update 2, WITH BB-set. I have to address though, Hobbit Burglar is weaker than Man Burglar cus of Flashing Blades animation being 0,5seconds or more slower.

    So if Any Dev is reading this?! Please fix the animation on Hobbit Burglar for Flashing Blades, to having same duration as Man Burglar for the skill. (ALso the same issue on champion, Dwarf champion have 0.5sec or so longer animation Ferocious and Brutal strikes than Man/Elf/High-elf. Meaning both Hobbit Burglar dps and Dwarf Champion dps will ALWAYS fall behind the other races with the same play).

    Race balancing needed aswell as class balancing!
    Last edited by Seodric; May 18 2018 at 04:58 PM.
    Thonras r13/r10 Blackarrow - Erenthenn r11/r8 Hunter - Seodric r11/r5 Burglar - Seorric r9 Champion - Grusnash r9 Reaver - Nomno r8 Warg - Durumdor r7 RK - Carranham r6 Captain
    Original Challenger of Gothmog and Original Challenger of The Abyss - The Bandits Laurelin - Odyssey Evernight

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Seodric View Post
    So if Any Dev is reading this?! Please fix the animation on Hobbit Burglar for Flashing Blades, to having same duration as Man Burglar for the skill. (ALso the same issue on champion, Dwarf champion have 0.5sec or so longer animation Ferocious and Brutal strikes than Man/Elf/High-elf. Meaning both Hobbit Burglar dps and Dwarf Champion dps will ALWAYS fall behind the other races with the same play).

    Race balancing needed aswell as class balancing!

    Just to let you know male human burg's flashing blades animation is slightly faster than a female's flashing blades as well.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Community_God View Post
    Burgs need fellowship usage like back when burgs were useful in Draigoch. As a burg its harder to get invited to group content as other classes seem to be more useful.
    Eh? Every single raid has 1 burg always. Quite often 2.

  10. #10
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    Would be nice if they did some work on Fellowship Manoeuvres.

  11. Surely the developers are not falling for the silly combat dummy parsing threads, are they? Surely they realize that, while these parses absolutely demonstrate the magnitude of each class battling a lone, defenseless training dummy in a completely safe situation, they do next to nothing to provide insight into how the classes actually do damage in the situations where it actually matters? Right?

    Surely they know to take into account, as do the players who post them, that the entire purpose of instances and raids is to put the players into situations which are not ideal, right? Surely they know not to base their decisions on how good a gymnast someone is by testing them in zero gravity?

    Right?


    Currently running The Spirit Gauntlet, during which no fate is unimaginable...

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    Surely the developers are not falling for the silly combat dummy parsing threads, are they? Surely they realize that, while these parses absolutely demonstrate the magnitude of each class battling a lone, defenseless training dummy in a completely safe situation, they do next to nothing to provide insight into how the classes actually do damage in the situations where it actually matters? Right?

    Surely they know to take into account, as do the players who post them, that the entire purpose of instances and raids is to put the players into situations which are not ideal, right? Surely they know not to base their decisions on how good a gymnast someone is by testing them in zero gravity?

    Right?
    Surely you're aware that the class you're trying to defend is broken in more aspects than I can count, right? Here, I'll sum it up for you:

    Ridiculous burst DPS, endless survivability skills, permanent CC chains whilst in red, permanent +18.6% incoming damage on primary target (was this decreased on BR?).

    That's just laying it out broadly, obviously the list would be much longer if I went into specifics. Please don't try to obfuscate the truth because you're unwilling to accept it.
    Last edited by Giliodor; May 22 2018 at 01:05 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post

    That's just lying it out broadly
    Really? You are lying about it and expect peope to care?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Surely you're aware that the class you're trying to defend is broken in more aspects than I can count, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I've never played burg in my life...
    These two statements do not reconcile very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Ridiculous burst DPS, endless survivability skills, permanent CC chains whilst in red...
    My point was that if we want to honestly evaluate the strength of a class, we need to do so in the environment and circumstances where that evaluation has significance. Rather than addressing this, your response merely reveals an animus toward the class itself, a class which you admittedly have never played in your life. I suspect your perspective is almost wholly based on PvMP rather than PvE, because if you had played a Burglar, you would know that the 'endless survivability' and 'permanent CC chains whilst in red' are mere novelties within the PvE environment.

    Developers, please, and I am pleading here: Please create a separate ruleset for Burglars for PvMP versus PvE or ban them from PvMP altogether. You cannot balance us for both using the same ruleset, and the biases which color the perspective from which one makes their argument are far too strong to even allow for a honest discussion otherwise.


    Currently running The Spirit Gauntlet, during which no fate is unimaginable...

    'Legendary' Items - Tips, Tricks, and a Guide to the 'Grind' - a Legendary Items guide! (And a new Imbuing guide! and Essence guide!)

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    These two statements do not reconcile very well.


    .

    Developers, please, and I am pleading here: Please create a separate ruleset for Burglars for PvMP versus PvE or ban them from PvMP altogether. You cannot balance us for both using the same ruleset, and the biases which color the perspective from which one makes their argument are far too strong to even allow for a honest discussion otherwise.
    Ban from PvP? C'mon now that's a rather silly proposal and detracts validity from everything else you are suggesting
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

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  16. Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Ban from PvP? C'mon now that's a rather silly proposal and detracts validity from everything else you are suggesting
    I don't want to see that. I think, or at least hope, that everyone would like to see a solution that gives Burglars balance both in PvMP and PvE.

    The problem is that the terms of the debate are not defined. Everyone is arguing past one another, making points about different circumstances and environments based upon their own perceptions as defined by which circumstance and environment they, themselves, most value. We either need to define the terms of the debate or separate the environments entirely.


    Currently running The Spirit Gauntlet, during which no fate is unimaginable...

    'Legendary' Items - Tips, Tricks, and a Guide to the 'Grind' - a Legendary Items guide! (And a new Imbuing guide! and Essence guide!)

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    I don't want to see that. I think, or at least hope, that everyone would like to see a solution that gives Burglars balance both in PvMP and PvE.

    The problem is that the terms of the debate are not defined. Everyone is arguing past one another, making points about different circumstances and environments based upon their own perceptions as defined by which circumstance and environment they, themselves, most value. We either need to define the terms of the debate or separate the environments entirely.
    Sounds like you don’t play your burglar pvp, but that’s ok, I don’t pve anymore so I don’t know how burgs function there. But to put it into perspective, I have nightmares fighting burglars in pvp. Cdg alone takes away more than 3quarters my health, if not completely one shot me. If I survive cdg, i’d Have too little morale left to deal significant damage, plus burglars have skills like touch and go, or that stun removal skill that adds a 50% evade, so effectively I can’t stun burglars (one of my main defence mechanism). Other classes may fare better, but I play blackarrow so I literally have no chance against them. No, I’m not exaggerating, no amount of “get better at your class” is gonna do it.
    I would say we should ask burglars who pve and pvp for input, but then again...I’ve had rank 15 burglar one shot me. He’s definitely not doing it for renown, so i guess he enjoys playing the role of bully. So here’s the problem: if you say burglars are ok in pve, I’ll take your word for it. But burglars are definitely not ok in pvp. And I don’t expect burg pvper (like the said r15) to be completely honest about it, because well, power corrupts.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    These two statements do not reconcile very well.
    Or, how about you provide the full quote instead? Here, I'll do it for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I've never played burg in my life, and on BR I do the same DPS that I do on my champion.
    In what world does that reinforce the point you're trying to make? If I've never a played a class before and can still do the same DPS that I do on my main, that means the class is broken. So in fact, those two statements go hand in hand. What were you thinking when writing that?

    My point was that if we want to honestly evaluate the strength of a class, we need to do so in the environment and circumstances where that evaluation has significance. Rather than addressing this, your response merely reveals an animus toward the class itself, a class which you admittedly have never played in your life. I suspect your perspective is almost wholly based on PvMP rather than PvE, because if you had played a Burglar, you would know that the 'endless survivability' and 'permanent CC chains whilst in red' are mere novelties within the PvE environment.
    And is PvMP not an aspect of this game? I'm pretty sure it is. It's one of the very few things that people keep coming back to, expansion after expansion. In PvE, the cool downs are still far too strong. Are you really going to tell me that you do not think that
    1min of 50% evade chance
    1min of 50% evade chance when stunned
    20s of 80% incoming melee damage reduction
    permanent 36.2%(?) miss chance debuff

    every 5 minutes is not overpowered? I was courteous enough to assume that you agree with me on this front. Same with the (near) permanent CC lockdown. Maybe it's not useful to you. Well, in that case, you shouldn't have any issues with it being nerfed, right?

    Developers, please, and I am pleading here: Please create a separate ruleset for Burglars for PvMP versus PvE or ban them from PvMP altogether. You cannot balance us for both using the same ruleset, and the biases which color the perspective from which one makes their argument are far too strong to even allow for a honest discussion otherwise.
    Utter nonsense. Damage is either too high relative to other classes, or it's not. If it's too high in PvMP, it probably is in PvE as well. Difference is that mobs don't complain about it on the forums, creeps do. And yes, sure, burglar damage seems more absurd in PvMP because of high burst DPS, but there is absolutely no question that it is also too high when sustained over a long fight. Just scroll up in this thread. No champion has been able to reach such numbers. And champions don't have stealth and endless survivability.

    Also, who is more likely to be biased? Someone who plays a burglar (and clearly is advocating against nerfs), or someone who doesn't play a burglar, and simply wants all classes to be on par with one another?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammadryad View Post
    Really? You are lying about it and expect peope to care?
    Oops, thanks, fixed that.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    These two statements do not reconcile very well.



    My point was that if we want to honestly evaluate the strength of a class, we need to do so in the environment and circumstances where that evaluation has significance. Rather than addressing this, your response merely reveals an animus toward the class itself, a class which you admittedly have never played in your life. I suspect your perspective is almost wholly based on PvMP rather than PvE, because if you had played a Burglar, you would know that the 'endless survivability' and 'permanent CC chains whilst in red' are mere novelties within the PvE environment.

    Developers, please, and I am pleading here: Please create a separate ruleset for Burglars for PvMP versus PvE or ban them from PvMP altogether. You cannot balance us for both using the same ruleset, and the biases which color the perspective from which one makes their argument are far too strong to even allow for a honest discussion otherwise.
    What's the problem here? Burglar is one of strongest classes in PvE. To the point they should really see reveal weakness magnitude capped to 10% if they want to play in red spec. Endless survivability and permanent CC is not novelty. It's extremely potent for solo play and extremely useful for group play.

  20. #20
    Regarding the class updates for burg Im hoping these are geared towards the group & PVE element.

    Landscape is always a walk in the park given by the nature of the burg to just sneak by the majority of mobs and decent solo burst dps for the mobs you need to kill.

    Group play burg does decent in most 6 man and 12 mans yet falls short of filling a DPS slot in 3 man when the mechanics are biased against a melee medium armour dps (think CoS)

    PvMP - I would prefer Dev's don't hold back on making positive changes to Burg, even if a side effect is how this works in current monster play; PvMP really is needing some overall work to make it at all decent again and that can only happen once class changes have kicked in. Then they need to look at some overall effects they can apply to the ettens if there are certain skills that would be OP in the moors.

    Just my 2 cents..looking forward to the Burg changes and hope they move away from the current assassin slant and into the more traditional CC/debuffer support Burglar we had before the trait trees
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fingerz View Post
    Regarding the class updates for burg Im hoping these are geared towards the group & PVE element.

    Landscape is always a walk in the park given by the nature of the burg to just sneak by the majority of mobs and decent solo burst dps for the mobs you need to kill.

    Group play burg does decent in most 6 man and 12 mans yet falls short of filling a DPS slot in 3 man when the mechanics are biased against a melee medium armour dps (think CoS)

    PvMP - I would prefer Dev's don't hold back on making positive changes to Burg, even if a side effect is how this works in current monster play; PvMP really is needing some overall work to make it at all decent again and that can only happen once class changes have kicked in. Then they need to look at some overall effects they can apply to the ettens if there are certain skills that would be OP in the moors.

    Just my 2 cents..looking forward to the Burg changes and hope they move away from the current assassin slant and into the more traditional CC/debuffer support Burglar we had before the trait trees
    That's why I always run as support role on burg in 3 mans. Take tank + DPS with you and you will be fine as burglar. You can even play in red line and be very effective support. Just like LM, don't try play as lone DPS in 3 man... Both of these classes are support. And how are mechanics biased against melee medium in cos? Burg has extremely high mitigations if they want and really strong DPS. So run with hunter/RK as 2nd DPS and you kill bosses in 20-30s each.


    I do agree they should look PvP and in PvP stealth classes (both burg and warg) should be bottom of the barrel. Favoring stealth classes in PvP over visible ones encourage bad PvP.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    And how are mechanics biased against melee medium in cos?
    Regards to CoS; i agree, medium armour element has no context here, more just the melee dps mechanics in that scenario.

    I wrote the medium armour aspect as I often see comparisons made between the heavy armour wearing Red Champ and the Medium armour Red Burg.

    It's been grating on me how Partials effected the class since their introduction as I very much enjoyed having a capped Parry/Evade Burg that was focused towards superb survival and decent DPS...not this current one shot assassin/glass cannon type I see atm
    lil 'obbit of Evernight...

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  23. Quote Originally Posted by wretchesandkings View Post
    Sounds like you don’t play your burglar pvp, but that’s ok, I don’t pve anymore so I don’t know how burgs function there. But to put it into perspective, I have nightmares fighting burglars in pvp. Cdg alone takes away more than 3quarters my health, if not completely one shot me. If I survive cdg, i’d Have too little morale left to deal significant damage, plus burglars have skills like touch and go, or that stun removal skill that adds a 50% evade, so effectively I can’t stun burglars (one of my main defence mechanism). Other classes may fare better, but I play blackarrow so I literally have no chance against them. No, I’m not exaggerating, no amount of “get better at your class” is gonna do it.
    I would say we should ask burglars who pve and pvp for input, but then again...I’ve had rank 15 burglar one shot me. He’s definitely not doing it for renown, so i guess he enjoys playing the role of bully. So here’s the problem: if you say burglars are ok in pve, I’ll take your word for it. But burglars are definitely not ok in pvp. And I don’t expect burg pvper (like the said r15) to be completely honest about it, because well, power corrupts.
    I believe you

    I have some experience in PvMP (Rank 9, I think) but not very much, and not recently. From my time out there, I see all of the points you are making and have made use of them myself.

    That is why I am advocating for a completely different ruleset for Burglars in PvE versus PvMP. The chasm of magnitude and significance between the PvE and PvMP environments with respect to the unique abilities Burglars bring to them is massive. No other class is anywhere near to us in this regard.

    The problem with balance for Burglars is that those same abilities that make us so great in PvP have far less (if any) significance in PvE:

    Being able to sneak up unnoticed against a foe in PvMP? Massive. That same ability in PvE? Virtually irrelevant (save for possible exploiting, which is a whole issue unto itself).

    Touch and Go in PvMP? Ridiculously massive. In PvE? It's fun, I guess, but irrelevant. If a Burglar is in a position where they actually are using Touch and Go in group content, the battle has already gone sideways, and save for maybe surviving for a few extra seconds to give time for the tank to be rezzed, it just means extra time before a wipe and restarting the battle.

    Constant CC in PvMP? Ridiculous. In PvE? All but irrelevant, because the foes you would want to do this do are immune, and the ones susceptible to it are either dead in an instant or can be locked down in more efficient ways.

    The issue with Burglars and overall balance is a very difficult one. It is going to take a lot of very smart people to figure out a solution for Burglars which works for both PvE and PvMP, and which also sees us completely unchanged between the two environments (if a solution exists at all). I think the best thing we can do is be open and honest with ourselves, and with each other, regarding our perspectives on the issue and take great care in explaining those perspectives when we make our arguments.

    You post is an excellent example of that, so thank you
    Last edited by Valkrist; May 22 2018 at 04:17 PM.


    Currently running The Spirit Gauntlet, during which no fate is unimaginable...

    'Legendary' Items - Tips, Tricks, and a Guide to the 'Grind' - a Legendary Items guide! (And a new Imbuing guide! and Essence guide!)

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  24. #24
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    As some have stated here about the Burg in Pvp they are OP - yet this shouldn't be the object to nerfing a class, have seen it recently in another game where class is nerfed due to what is happening in pvp and it screws the class up in PvE

    Any changes made should reflect PvE mechanics and then deal with the issues of Pvp on the Creep side to enhance the Phys Mits etc of creep

    A few comments I seen based on comparing with things like champs on the way of DPS done is a mute point IMO, Burgs are a SINGLE TARGET class with one skill hitting more than 1 mob (this wont raise a Burgs DPS in a fight that muc due to the length of the CD) - That said Champs even in Red build have multi AOE skills and can keep up the DPS on a boss and adds in a fight and can still keep the same dps running on the boss etc while hitting other mobs, this is where a Burg should then be doing better DPS on boss and at moment are not.

    This said ive only mentioned Champ, there are other classes like Hunters, RK's etc doing the same thing with so called single target builds doing more damage/dps than burgs in PvE

    All the nerf the burg comments do come from Pvp - and yes I do agree that burgs do a lot pvp wise its the creeps that need buffing to combat this not nerfing of a class

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Or, how about you provide the full quote instead? Here, I'll do it for you:
    First off, let me just say that I think we agree on a lot more than you may think

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    In what world does that reinforce the point you're trying to make? If I've never a played a class before and can still do the same DPS that I do on my main, that means the class is broken. So in fact, those two statements go hand in hand. What were you thinking when writing that?
    Though not here, unfortunately. My point was that beating up the piñata that is a training dummy only provides insight into how classes fare at beating up the piñata that is a training dummy, in not just a safe environment but an immobile one, regardless of whether it is your first time doing it or not. We should not make value judgements regarding how well classes fare in situations of significance by testing how well they fare in completely different circumstances with no significance. Period.

    When I played her, my captain could heal many instances that a lot of minstrels and runekeepers I knew could not. Should we conclude that Captains are better healers than Minstrels or Runekeepers? Of course not, even though the circumstances in which this happened are far more applicable to evaluating value then battling a training dummy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    And is PvMP not an aspect of this game? I'm pretty sure it is.
    You bet it is

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Are you really going to tell me that you do not think that
    1min of 50% evade chance
    1min of 50% evade chance when stunned
    20s of 80% incoming melee damage reduction
    permanent 36.2%(?) miss chance debuff

    every 5 minutes is not overpowered? I was courteous enough to assume that you agree with me on this front. Same with the (near) permanent CC lockdown.
    I am not as qualified to judge as many, but I definitely believe it is and agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Maybe it's not useful to you. Well, in that case, you shouldn't have any issues with it being nerfed, right?
    I won't rehash the points I made in response to wretchesandkings, but I would not mind seeing Provoke/Mez done away with, particularly in red line. Gambler needs all the help it can get, but even there it is kind of silly. At least you are sacrificing a good amount of damage to do it in that line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Utter nonsense. Damage is either too high relative to other classes, or it's not. If it's too high in PvMP, it probably is in PvE as well. Difference is that mobs don't complain about it on the forums, creeps do. And yes, sure, burglar damage seems more absurd in PvMP because of high burst DPS, but there is absolutely no question that it is also too high when sustained over a long fight. Just scroll up in this thread. No champion has been able to reach such numbers. And champions don't have stealth and endless survivability.
    Let me reverse things on you. Given the things you mentioned above:

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Are you really going to tell me that you do not think that
    1min of 50% evade chance
    1min of 50% evade chance when stunned
    20s of 80% incoming melee damage reduction
    permanent 36.2%(?) miss chance debuff
    Are you really going to tell me that those same things have anywhere near the same relevance in PvE as they do in PvMP? Be honest

    Of course they do not. You probably know that the miss chance from Dust does not work on bosses in PvE, but it is worth mentioning just in case. It works on trash mobs, but then again, there is a reason they are called 'trash' mobs, right?

    If we adjust Burglars down for all of those things due to their influence in PvMP, wouldn't you admit that will adversely affect us in PvE where these things have far less significance?

    When you make statements like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Damage is either too high relative to other classes, or it's not. If it's too high in PvMP, it probably is in PvE as well
    Are you certain there is not a little bit of bias sneaking in there? Should we really balance how classes do damage in PvE based on how they do damage in PvMP, two completely different circumstances which call for completely different tactics and strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Also, who is more likely to be biased? Someone who plays a burglar (and clearly is advocating against nerfs), or someone who doesn't play a burglar, and simply wants all classes to be on par with one another?
    I think we are all prone to bias, no matter how well intentioned we are. Like I said with wretchesandkings, I think we need to be both open and honest, with ourselves and each other, with respect to our perspectives, for what it is we are arguing, and why we are doing so. I think we need to be very careful about bringing misleading information to the debate, like conveying far more significance to training dummy parses that they deserve.

    My honest opinion is that, given the unique qualities of Burglars with respect to the PvMP environment, there is likely no solution (that does not involve two separate rulesets) that can bring us into balance regarding both PvE and PvMP simultaneously.

    Hopefully, someone can come up with a solution. My best suggestion is a practical one, because the developers are obviously not going to essentially create a mirror class just for Burglars. What if Burglars had a constant overall debuff on their damage while in PvMP? What that percentage should be would decided by those with far more knowledge than I with respect to PvMP, but it could be a more simple way to bring both aspects of the class into a semblance of balance.

    I want all classes to be on par with one another, too


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