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  1. #1

    Lightbulb Lets talk Warden, U21-22 and Mordor

    Hey fellow wardens! (i've made this same post in reddit but wanted to get it into the forums too). So the following post is gonna be a tad bit long but I believe every Warden should read this add their thoughts/hints. so grab a cup of coffee and allow me to take 5 mins of your time Over the last couple months I've seen a lot of wardens play weather its pvp or pve, and It seems I'm noticing the same problem with the majority of those players. A lot of wardens now stack somewhere like 80-90k health, and inspecting their armor they slot 2-4 finesses, 6-8 vitality, maybe so phys mast and one or two mitigation essences (to cap them) and some other rando build like ALL VITALITY essences and claim they're "mit capped". This Is Horribly Wrong. Here's why I believe a lot of wardens aren't getting into t2 tanking roles; because people believe that a 10% less mitigation cap than guards or Cappys absolutely cripples us. I DO believe that wardens should have some higher mitigation! No debate there! HOWEVER i do not believe us having 52-55% mitigation cap makes us any less of a tank than the ladder. This is because I believe most people who play warden (and i mean no offense to anyone <3) simply don't know how to play the class. People want to play warden like guard, stand there, force taunt, and kick back your seat and relax while healers heal you and party kicks mob ###! wardens are not meant to be a super sturdy, heavy, take all the shots to the face, tank. We parry, and evade more hits than we block, and it seems that people do not understand that. Yes we have a shield, and yes we CAN block, but with the current (####) raid gear for warden that gives (almost) same stats as hunter/burg RG, you must understand HOW to properly use your skills/buffs to make up for what your armor can't:

    -Shield tactics(+8460 tact mit)
    -Dance of ward(+7000 crit defense AND +4776 Phys mit (+2% cap))
    -War cry(+11196 evade rating)
    -Shield mastery(+14,300 block rating)
    to name a few, are skills that you MUST use with battle prep before each major fight. aggro is another issue people claim with wardens. I simply do not believe wardens have any difficulty pulling aggro. Once again, our aggro is NOT like guards or cappys, where it's once shout and mobs force taunt us. Despite the fact that we have defiant challenge, it is a horrible idea to spam def challenge right as fight begins. I can not tell you how many wardens do this... The way wardens get aggro is through their threat! yes, every Dot (NOT BLEED), DOT, you put on enemies:

    -war cry (AOE)
    -brink of victory (AOE)
    -surety of death (AOE)
    -Desolation (AOE)
    -precise blow (Single target)
    -piercing attack (Single target)
    -spear of virtue (Single target)
    -resounding strike (AOE)
    the following gambits (which are chains) increase their threat if done in the correct chain sequence! and ONLY WHEN aggro is drawn is when you should hit defiant challenge, securing your hold of aggro, while giving you up to 90% mitigation (based on how many mobs are on you) for something like 10 seconds while reflecting a percent of every attack, fire, shadow, song, etc back to the enemies. Throw in some Conviction to heal fellowship and Fierce Resolve/ Exultation of Battle for those sweet HoTs and you make one badass tank. Furthermore It has been a PAIN that we don't have a single target taunt BUTT with the next update we are FINALLY getting a single target taunt! so this further proves my point that Wardens are wayyy more viable at drawing aggro than people claim.

    Gear is the last topic I'd like to cover. As stated before 85% of wardens have no flippin' clue what essences they wanna stack. if you have 338/340 gear, you will have 18 essence slots. Yes this includes the cloak and gloves you can get from the alliance vendor that cost 130 [preserved relics of the last alliance] each. Assuming you have the maximum amount of those essence slots, here's how your essences should look
    -4 Northern Stronghold Essence of Restoration (7715 incoming healing rating each) which combined would give you 19.2% incoming healing rating (20% cap)
    -3 or 4 Empowered Abyssal mitigation essences to get yourself 7,700 over cap (For those t2 runs that subtract 7.7k from your mits).
    -with the rest of the 9-10 essences you have, Northern Stronghold Essence of Vitality! (which'll give you anywhere from +33,435-37,150 morale)
    Following these essances with 330/340 gear at least will give you around 140,000 morale, with 74-75k mitigation (way over the 7k cap), AND 19% incoming healing which'll make you SUPER easy to heal and will make you last a lot longer in fights.

    To recap, here's the issue: a lot of wardens now days are ditching tanking for red/yellow line (for the above given "problems") OR if they are in blue line not understanding how to play the class well. If you follow these instructions, gear well, and do your gambit chains instead of spamming Boar's rush and Onslaught, you should have literally no problem tanking with a warden. And as said, with U22 and our single target taunt I would encourage wardens to stop making yellow/red lines and try out this godlike blue build. I've been running this build for the past 4 months, and through trial and error of essences and tactics I've build it up. I'm the second tank in my kin's AOM runs every week and we do it no problem, and I run CoS t2c with kinmates as well with no problem (though CoS t2c is a tad bit different in tanking). I'm r7 in pvp and do very well, and on top of being tanky, my DoTs do 7-10k pulses of damage, which if you stack 3 or 4 of on an enemy, ain't bad damage for a tank.
    Anyways thank you so much for your time! Do you agree with my thoughts? wanna add more that you thought i didn't cover? I'd love to hear from each and every one of you bellow thank you guys

    Karustel (Brandywine)

  2. #2
    Thank you. This gives me hope. I'm literally leveling my first character in lotro and i decided to go with a warden and was already wondering if i had messed up by picking up this class.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by carustel View Post
    Hey fellow wardens! (i've made this same post in reddit but wanted to get it into the forums too). So the following post is gonna be a tad bit long but I believe every Warden should read this add their thoughts/hints. so grab a cup of coffee and allow me to take 5 mins of your time Over the last couple months I've seen a lot of wardens play weather its pvp or pve, and It seems I'm noticing the same problem with the majority of those players. A lot of wardens now stack somewhere like 80-90k health, and inspecting their armor they slot 2-4 finesses, 6-8 vitality, maybe so phys mast and one or two mitigation essences (to cap them) and some other rando build like ALL VITALITY essences and claim they're "mit capped". This Is Horribly Wrong. Here's why I believe a lot of wardens aren't getting into t2 tanking roles; because people believe that a 10% less mitigation cap than guards or Cappys absolutely cripples us. I DO believe that wardens should have some higher mitigation! No debate there! HOWEVER i do not believe us having 52-55% mitigation cap makes us any less of a tank than the ladder. This is because I believe most people who play warden (and i mean no offense to anyone <3) simply don't know how to play the class. People want to play warden like guard, stand there, force taunt, and kick back your seat and relax while healers heal you and party kicks mob ###! wardens are not meant to be a super sturdy, heavy, take all the shots to the face, tank. We parry, and evade more hits than we block, and it seems that people do not understand that. Yes we have a shield, and yes we CAN block, but with the current (####) raid gear for warden that gives (almost) same stats as hunter/burg RG, you must understand HOW to properly use your skills/buffs to make up for what your armor can't:

    -Shield tactics(+8460 tact mit)
    -Dance of ward(+7000 crit defense AND +4776 Phys mit (+2% cap))
    -War cry(+11196 evade rating)
    -Shield mastery(+14,300 block rating)
    to name a few, are skills that you MUST use with battle prep before each major fight. aggro is another issue people claim with wardens. I simply do not believe wardens have any difficulty pulling aggro. Once again, our aggro is NOT like guards or cappys, where it's once shout and mobs force taunt us. Despite the fact that we have defiant challenge, it is a horrible idea to spam def challenge right as fight begins. I can not tell you how many wardens do this... The way wardens get aggro is through their threat! yes, every Dot (NOT BLEED), DOT, you put on enemies:

    -war cry (AOE)
    -brink of victory (AOE)
    -surety of death (AOE)
    -Desolation (AOE)
    -precise blow (Single target)
    -piercing attack (Single target)
    -spear of virtue (Single target)
    -resounding strike (AOE)
    the following gambits (which are chains) increase their threat if done in the correct chain sequence! and ONLY WHEN aggro is drawn is when you should hit defiant challenge, securing your hold of aggro, while giving you up to 90% mitigation (based on how many mobs are on you) for something like 10 seconds while reflecting a percent of every attack, fire, shadow, song, etc back to the enemies. Throw in some Conviction to heal fellowship and Fierce Resolve/ Exultation of Battle for those sweet HoTs and you make one badass tank. Furthermore It has been a PAIN that we don't have a single target taunt BUTT with the next update we are FINALLY getting a single target taunt! so this further proves my point that Wardens are wayyy more viable at drawing aggro than people claim.

    Gear is the last topic I'd like to cover. As stated before 85% of wardens have no flippin' clue what essences they wanna stack. if you have 338/340 gear, you will have 18 essence slots. Yes this includes the cloak and gloves you can get from the alliance vendor that cost 130 [preserved relics of the last alliance] each. Assuming you have the maximum amount of those essence slots, here's how your essences should look
    -4 Northern Stronghold Essence of Restoration (7715 incoming healing rating each) which combined would give you 19.2% incoming healing rating (20% cap)
    -3 or 4 Empowered Abyssal mitigation essences to get yourself 7,700 over cap (For those t2 runs that subtract 7.7k from your mits).
    -with the rest of the 9-10 essences you have, Northern Stronghold Essence of Vitality! (which'll give you anywhere from +33,435-37,150 morale)
    Following these essances with 330/340 gear at least will give you around 140,000 morale, with 74-75k mitigation (way over the 7k cap), AND 19% incoming healing which'll make you SUPER easy to heal and will make you last a lot longer in fights.

    To recap, here's the issue: a lot of wardens now days are ditching tanking for red/yellow line (for the above given "problems") OR if they are in blue line not understanding how to play the class well. If you follow these instructions, gear well, and do your gambit chains instead of spamming Boar's rush and Onslaught, you should have literally no problem tanking with a warden. And as said, with U22 and our single target taunt I would encourage wardens to stop making yellow/red lines and try out this godlike blue build. I've been running this build for the past 4 months, and through trial and error of essences and tactics I've build it up. I'm the second tank in my kin's AOM runs every week and we do it no problem, and I run CoS t2c with kinmates as well with no problem (though CoS t2c is a tad bit different in tanking). I'm r7 in pvp and do very well, and on top of being tanky, my DoTs do 7-10k pulses of damage, which if you stack 3 or 4 of on an enemy, ain't bad damage for a tank.
    Anyways thank you so much for your time! Do you agree with my thoughts? wanna add more that you thought i didn't cover? I'd love to hear from each and every one of you bellow thank you guys

    Karustel (Brandywine)
    Lol there are a good few of us who have ranked AoM t2c and it is like barely doable with 140k morale. I use might gear to reach the 70k mit rating for both tact and physical mits. I've actually done extensive testing with inc healing and the scaling it provides is practically useless. You can off tank Fingar rather easily with 140k morale but the first two bosses require a good bit more.
    Oh and btw the t2 cap for mits is 70800, there is no need for 75k so I don't know where you're getting those numbers from. There are plenty of Wardens still around who have Tanked everything in the game on level.

    Who in the world would spam wall of steel and boars rush while tanking? There are like 8x reliable buffs you can keep busy with from Gambits. The fact of the matter is that most of these gambit buffs provide little to no reliable increase in survivability in the current raid. For example, can you b/p/e a double supplicant burst? No lol. The only thing that will save you is if you time DC right to gain increased mits before the massive burst damage you take. No other class has to rely on their taunt just to survive because it's an absurd mechanic. Sagrog is untankable as a Warden because he hits too high. So if you're there your kin is going to put you on add duty, which is practically impossible without kiting after 6 adds. The only boss fight that is better with a warden is using them in an Off tanking role in Fingar for mit reduction(which BTW on Bullroarer is nerfed because the cap is 5% for mit reduction unless you have a level 85 rare earring).

    Let me reiterate. Wardens CAN tank just fine lol that doesnt mean it is rewarding or that it was possible when the raid was still in progression stages
    The fact that you can do something quite a few others can do 6 months after raid release doesnt make it "Godlike". The fact of the matter is that an undergeared guard or even captain can Tank much more effectively than a fully geared Warden can. Don't go around making grandiose claims that Wardens from top raiding kins are just making these issues up. FFS a beorning can main tank AoM right now... does that mean Beornings are in a good spot? Give me a break.
    Last edited by gaara908776; May 15 2018 at 08:47 PM.

  4. #4
    A lot of missinformation by OP so let me point out some of it.

    Your reference to avoidance I will asume was figure of speach as saying warden is avoidance tank is irelevent since other tanks can have same avoidance with equal if not less efort.Also to get it out of the way boars rush/onslaught spam I will also asume was figure of speach.

    Using certain buffs before fight trough battle prep is basicly waste,example shield tactics you will already be cap on mits so its a waste not to mention waste of SI in few specific encounters.

    And most of your pulls will start with Shiled of Dunedain wich gives you enough time to survive start of fight and put any buffs you need.

    In current meta again outside of few sutuations you build aggro by forcetaunting wich is most dumbest thing that has happend to tanking.

    So threat you produce with DoTs or morale taps is only usefull for grabing mobs that are not being dpsed and are heading for healers.

    Using incoming healing essences is situational and in current content waste of slots on warden,and if you realy need it getting it via % buffs is far easier and better.

    If you need 3-4 essences to cap your mitigations you are doing something wrong as tank warden is using might jewlery.And if you are realy worried with fellow protector its easy to cap them.

    140k morale is low for raid.CoS is irelevent because if you run with healer/lm you can tank it with full dps gear easly.Only scenario where you might need bit higher morale is if you plan to do with 2 dps where they die on 2nd boss and you solo it till end wich is time waste for people you group with.

    In full tank gear you will have problems with dots on boss fights with low finesse so dont count on them for dmg as what they do is quite irelevent.You will mostly be keeping buffs up if you can BPE in that fight if not its mit debuff>induction buff>whatever and dc

    I ditch yellow line because its too clunky irelevent of how good buffs/dmg i can get from it if its clunky with already bad server lag i will not use it.

    I enjoy warden tank but I am bigger fan of redline as I prefer melee DPS and will wait till its put back where it belongs despite what others will say about it.

    Also Gaara also made some good points in his reply so I will end my rant here.
    Last edited by Osglinthor; May 15 2018 at 08:54 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    656
    Quote Originally Posted by carustel View Post
    This is because I believe most people who play warden (and i mean no offense to anyone <3) simply don't know how to play the class. People want to play warden like guard, stand there, force taunt, and kick back your seat and relax while healers heal you and party kicks mob ###! wardens are not meant to be a super sturdy, heavy, take all the shots to the face, tank. We parry, and evade more hits than we block, and it seems that people do not understand that. Yes we have a shield, and yes we CAN block, but with the current (####) raid gear for warden that gives (almost) same stats as hunter/burg RG, you must understand HOW to properly use your skills/buffs to make up for what your armor can't:
    So enlighten me please...

    How will you avoid a boss attack on the newer instances/raids, even with capped B/P/E stats, when SSG decided that boss attacks can't be avoided?

    Wardens are supposed to be 'the avoidance tanks', but i don't see that working. If you add to that the fact that warden's have lower mit cap, then you can see why they take way more damage than Guards and Cappys, even for people that know how to play warden properly.
    Thorgull lvl 105 Champion - Malendar lvl 115 Warden - Estelldion lvl 101 LoreMaster - Ballduin lvl 36 Runekeeper - Nharduil lvl 17 Minstrel All on Evernight

    Malenborn - Warden & Athanandor - Hunter on Crickhollow (Casual Wanderers)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,354
    Have you op done abyss t2cm as main warden tank? 140k morale means you can get one shotted and definitely 2 shotted. If morale is bellow 80% its sure oneshot with such morale pool at some point. To survive reliably you would need 3-4x disables, when otherwise burgs always use perma enrages.. On top of this warden is the worst class to keep aggro on the boss. You need someone else to hold aggro for you for few seconds before you can even dream of force taunting.
    Last edited by siipperi; May 16 2018 at 02:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Have you op done abyss t2cm as main warden tank? 140k morale means you can get one shotted and definitely 2 shotted. If morale is bellow 80% its sure oneshot with such morale pool at some point. To survive reliably you would need 3-4x disables, when otherwise burgs always use perma enrages.. On top of this warden is the worst class to keep aggro on the boss. You need someone else to hold aggro for you for few seconds before you can even dream of force taunting.
    Aggro problems will be fixed with new force taunt. I have only had aggro issues in Abyss T2C on mobs like falranc the hewn because he never comes in range of DC so have to currently have a Hunter blow him up as soon as he comes out and run behind where I tank high priestess khokali until Falranc is in range of DC. Aggro isn't too big of a problem on boss 2 adds, and warden off tank role on boss 3 is pretty easy tbh. Movement is the most difficult part depending on group strategy but I think even Guardian has to get used to movement. But yes I have a hard time believing the OP because I go in with capped mits, and 200k morale with raid buffs and boss 1 can still 2 shot me on rare occasions.

    Only accurate piece of info I've seen from OP is that many wardens are ditching Blue for Red. This makes sense because a Warden with 4 piece DoT set, and 2 piece Throne yellow set can do fairly good dps and keep -10% physical and tactical mitigation debuffs on boss with near 100% uptime. My best red parse on boss 1 was ~60k with this set up which is more than viable for T2C. Boss 2 red wardens bring best corruption removal of any class and mit reduction, boss 3 moderate dps and good mit reduction. Obviously it's easier for a Warden to find a spot as dps if they're skilled. Comparably, if a Warden wants to tank, they're competing with a Guardian. Bringing a Warden tank over a Guardian tank is detrimental to the group chance of success 100% of the time for boss 1 and 2 so why would anyone want to bring one?
    Last edited by gaara908776; May 16 2018 at 02:51 AM.

 

 

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