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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    53

    Bullroarer Update 22.2 - Preview and General Feedback

    Greetings! Bullroarer has been updated to build 2202.0059.9154.4221.

    You can find the release notes for the build here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Release-Notes

    Please leave class feedback in the following threads:
    Champion: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eedback-Thread

    Guardian: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...date-Guardians

    Hunter: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Update-Hunters

    Loremaster: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...te-Loremasters

    Minstrel: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eedback-Thread

    Warden: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eedback-Thread

    Please feel free to use this Preview thread for general feedback.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Louisiana
    Posts
    10,566
    Wow! Massive updates! Can't wait to see how they shake out.
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone & Landroval

  3. #3

    Am I understanding this?

    Tactical Relic Rebalancing


    Note from the team: We have rebalanced recent changes to Tactical Relics, necessitated by some mistakes we made during their initial implementation for the Mordor expansion. We have reached a point in our class balance work where unfortunately we need to address this error. We will be doing what we can to make the changes more convenient for affected characters.

    The relics with the new tactical bonuses had two serious balance issues:

    They were never intended to work in BOTH weapon and class IA slots. That was a straight up bug on our part.
    They weren't scaled correctly compared to the base bonus ratings on the weapons. They were scaled the same as the Physical DPS relics - but as you may know, the tactical and healing bonuses on IA items are substantially lower than the physical bonuses.

    This necessitates two corresponding changes that we need to implement alongside our ongoing class balance updates:

    Tactical DPS relics will only slot in the primary weapon, and will see their bonus reduced to ~70% of their current value.
    Tactical HPS relics will only slot in the Class item, and will see their bonus reduced to ~45% of their current value.
    We recognize that this will impact some players' current IA layouts. To manage this, those existing Tactical bonus relics will be removed from your IA items and relic inventories, and be replaced by barter tokens that can be exchanged at a Gorgoroth raid vendor for an equivalent relic (either DPS or HPS), so that you can rebalance your IA build around the new restrictions.
    Had it been a more modest imbalance we would have simply let it ride, but in this case it is creating sufficient class imbalances that we feel that we need to address it during our class balance passes to make sure that it doesn't invalidate our other efforts going forwards, or have untoward effects on characters without access to the relics.


    So this means for example:
    A Ministrel purchased 2 tactical healing relics 1 for class item 1 for weapon (3500x2=7000 ash) ... The character will be given a token to get a tactical dps relic for their HEALING weapon? Just no no no ... NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! refund 3500 ash is the only thing that token should do!!!!!!!! If people are at ash cap they can hold onto the token until they are below 6500 ash..

    What if the player NEVER would have gotten a dps relic for their HEALING LI and would rather have the 4600 mastery relic from udun .... they wasted 3500 ash because of YOUR mistake ...
    What if said ministrel bought keys to get the 3500 ash for a specific HEALING relic ie used real money and now your changing what they purchased?? Thats bad business and possibly liable
    Hopefully i am completely misunderstanding what your saying

    Please reconsider what and how you're doing this

  4. #4
    I haven't tested any of this but it reads like a big nerf on some classes (especially the relics nerf for tactical class), not to say that you destroy the hunter. If you get him a 20 sec cooldown on barrage a hunter will NOT be able to hold the DPS like now, nor will he do 10-20% more damage on red line. as i said, not tested yet.

    It will be interesting after that balancing to do AoM T2.

    I'm very excited of the feedback the next days/weeks.

  5. #5
    Crissaegrim's Avatar
    Crissaegrim is offline Defender of the Hornburg
    Guardian of Lothlórien
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Landroval
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    1,129
    Won't play.

    Patched up, Iterations forward, log in, choose Bullroarer, log in screen drops. Nothing.

    Perhaps a "not default installation path" issue. Shall try again later from my very crowded C drive.

  6. #6

    RIP

    RIP Lotro trying to shut its own game down by making people leave

  7. #7

    Question Major class changes. Why now?

    Hey and thanks for all your hard work!

    I do have to ask why all the major changes to classes suggested in Bullroarer Update 22.2 are coming now in the middle of a raiding season?
    This is not a good time at all, let me explain:

    Changing runes which take a lot of hard work and time to grind out and removing them now because "necessitated by some mistakes we made ...."
    OK I know we get tokens to barter etc but peeps just wont want heal runes on there dps satchel or book, nor DPS ones on their healing weapon or runestone. This forces peeps to change to a mastery one and hence players hard work and time will have been sadly wasted.

    Hunters have finally made it back into raiding woot! thank you Mordor! My number two has been revived and I have been having some fun when I get a chance to play her. Hunter DPS is Entirely dependent on Barrage spam (good or bad is irrelevant here). Forcing hunters into Red line now in the middle of a level cap, will require them to rebuild their characters and even change legacies on Legendary. This is assuming that red line has been really fixed to do more DPS, but I doubt it will beat current blue line. I suspect these major nerfs [20s CD on barrage] maybe the end of hunters as a viable choice for T2 raiding again.

    People have chosen there set bonuses on raid armour on the basis of the current setup. Changing this now is ... inconvenient. I chose Rapid fire CD for my hunter. Will this armour set now be redundant? I strongly suspect so. But on the plus side I will have a maxed out set of Raid armour for my solo line build!

    We are currently progressing as a Kin nicely through the raid currently do T2 and working on challenges on 1st and 3rd boss. With the two major DPS classes having such major overhauls means peeps having to relearn their classes and rebuild accordingly and then we have to remeasure everything and readjust class make up and tactics.

    Things that should be fixed now:
    Guardian and captain tanking set armour with DPS stats on them should be replaced with ones with tanking stats on them perhaps?
    Beorning in-combat rez, should work all the time not just 50% ish(?) of the time?
    Acknowledge and remove the bias towards range DPS for future instances?
    Make it harder for the gold sellers to mass produce toons by excluding low levels [-20 sorry lowbies] from using World channel?
    Delete Warden yellow line completely and give them a craft-able boot they can throw at the enemy.

    Thumbs up for fixing Guardian [my main] red line DPS. I did enjoy linking my parses from combat analysis as it was just funny. Fixes like this will not affect raid progress and is more than welcome.
    Most of these changes should have been made months ago or simply left till the next instance cluster or the next level cap change. Maybe I will see the plus side of many more of these changes in a few weeks, but at first read, I have to wonder ...

    Why now?
    Riv: Icenie~Guardian, Scyla~Hunter, Shellby~Minstrel
    Enlightened Despot of Marukhati Selectives [Evernight].

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    1,746
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel90 View Post
    Hey and thanks for all your hard work!

    I do have to ask why all the major changes to classes suggested in Bullroarer Update 22.2 are coming now in the middle of a raiding season?
    This is not a good time at all, let me explain:

    Changing runes which take a lot of hard work and time to grind out and removing them now because "necessitated by some mistakes we made ...."
    OK I know we get tokens to barter etc but peeps just wont want heal runes on there dps satchel or book, nor DPS ones on their healing weapon or runestone. This forces peeps to change to a mastery one and hence players hard work and time will have been sadly wasted.

    Hunters have finally made it back into raiding woot! thank you Mordor! My number two has been revived and I have been having some fun when I get a chance to play her. Hunter DPS is Entirely dependent on Barrage spam (good or bad is irrelevant here). Forcing hunters into Red line now in the middle of a level cap, will require them to rebuild their characters and even change legacies on Legendary. This is assuming that red line has been really fixed to do more DPS, but I doubt it will beat current blue line. I suspect these major nerfs [20s CD on barrage] maybe the end of hunters as a viable choice for T2 raiding again.

    People have chosen there set bonuses on raid armour on the basis of the current setup. Changing this now is ... inconvenient. I chose Rapid fire CD for my hunter. Will this armour set now be redundant? I strongly suspect so. But on the plus side I will have a maxed out set of Raid armour for my solo line build!

    We are currently progressing as a Kin nicely through the raid currently do T2 and working on challenges on 1st and 3rd boss. With the two major DPS classes having such major overhauls means peeps having to relearn their classes and rebuild accordingly and then we have to remeasure everything and readjust class make up and tactics.

    Things that should be fixed now:
    Guardian and captain tanking set armour with DPS stats on them should be replaced with ones with tanking stats on them perhaps?
    Beorning in-combat rez, should work all the time not just 50% ish(?) of the time?
    Acknowledge and remove the bias towards range DPS for future instances?
    Make it harder for the gold sellers to mass produce toons by excluding low levels [-20 sorry lowbies] from using World channel?
    Delete Warden yellow line completely and give them a craft-able boot they can throw at the enemy.

    Thumbs up for fixing Guardian [my main] red line DPS. I did enjoy linking my parses from combat analysis as it was just funny. Fixes like this will not affect raid progress and is more than welcome.
    Most of these changes should have been made months ago or simply left till the next instance cluster or the next level cap change. Maybe I will see the plus side of many more of these changes in a few weeks, but at first read, I have to wonder ...

    Why now?
    We have been hearing for a long time that the community wanted us to prioritize class work as part of an overall improvement to class balance, and have embarked on this effort starting in Update 22.
    Community Manager, Lord of the Rings Online
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    coolcool

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We have been hearing for a long time that the community wanted us to prioritize class work as part of an overall improvement to class balance, and have embarked on this effort starting in Update 22.

    Which I personally totally agree with. It will always be a bad time for someone and class balance has to start somewhere after being ignored since forever. And starting it before new raids and dungeons come out (which is still a while off, so you can tweak and tinker with classes in the meantime), especially with your renewed focus on classic MMORPG dungeon content, this time is now.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We have been hearing for a long time that the community wanted us to prioritize class work as part of an overall improvement to class balance, and have embarked on this effort starting in Update 22.
    Cord i wanna tell you (even tho this is the first build) the ssg destroyed the game, the raiding game. Cause none of these important change are necessary and wanted. People asked for viable guard dps for questing and such they got that nice. People asked for champions blue line to get scaled and the dps improved, they got that, nice. But now minis got a giant nerf that completly destroys their class and the way minis heal you are making the new grind to re learn the classes massive and for no good reason. Improve the classes that are struggling and leave the good ones alone. speaking of good ones and im sure you know about this after 10 seconds of br testing yall absolutely destroyed rks. And we all want refunds for our relics

  11. #11
    Changing the Tactical HPS and Tactical DPS relics in this way makes some amount of sense, but it does create a unique problem if this is all that is done about them. These relics have a higher Critical Rating bonus on them than the Last Alliance variations available for barter at Gorgoroth reputation vendors, and there are no rating-only equivalents for either Rare/Incomparable Vanguard Runes of Striking/Enchantment/Binding or the Grand Abyssal variation of these, for builds which are only Tactical Damage or Healing focused rather than both.

    If we are to receive a token which can be used to replace an improperly-slotted relic of these types, it would also be a good idea to add a couple or so rune variations at these tiers which have the same Critical Rating bonus, but give a rating bonus to a specific stat instead of Physical/Tactical DPS or Tactical HPS. For example:

    Last Alliance Rune of Force (currently in-game)
    +4264 Physical Mastery Rating
    +1542 Critical Rating

    Shadowed Essence of Physical Mastery (currently in-game)
    +4264 Physical Mastery Rating

    Shadowed Essence of Critical Rating (currently in-game)
    +2572 Critical Rating

    All of these are at item level 326, and the pattern seems to be using 100% of the primary stat bonus (Physical Mastery Rating, in this case), and 60% of the secondary stat bonus (Critical Rating). For Vanguard runes:

    Rare Vanguard Rune of Striking (currently in-game)
    +76.8 Base Combat Damage Modifier
    +1624 Critical Rating

    Incomparable Vanguard Rune of Striking (currently in-game)
    +96 Base Combat Damage Modifier
    +1624 Critical Rating

    Empowered Shadow Essence of Physical Mastery (currently in-game)
    +4399 Physical Mastery Rating

    Empowered Shadow Essence of Critical Rating (currently in-game)
    +2707 Critical Rating

    All of these are at item level 330, and the Vanguard runes still use the same pattern of ~60% of the second stat bonus compared to Essence bonuses -- however, there is a major difference in how the primary stat is handled depending on the rarity of the rune itself. And finally:

    Grand Abyssal Rune of Striking (currently in-game)
    +125.4 Base Combat Damage Modifier
    +2572 Critical Rating

    Empowered Abyssal Essence of Physical Mastery (currently in-game)
    +4907 Physical Mastery Rating

    Empowered Abyssal Essence of Critical Rating (currently in-game)
    +3215 Critical Rating

    This is where the pattern seems to change significantly. The secondary stat on the rune (Critical Rating) does not divide well with an item level 337 Essence, but is a clean 80% of a 345 Empowered Abyssal Essence of Critical Rating -- as such, I'm assuming a Grand Abyssal rune is also item level 345. However, this is still considerably more than any runes found in Mordor at 326, 330, and 337 (I did the math and found standard Abyssal relics to be item level 337).

    Following this logic, adding runes with alternative primary stat slices at item levels 330 and 345 (Rare/Incomparable Vanguard and Grand Abyssal, respectively) would be a good idea, doubling also as potential replacements for improperly-slotted runes we will apparently be getting tokens for. Perhaps something like the following for Vanguard runes:

    Rare Vanguard Rune of Force
    +4399 Physical Mastery Rating
    +1624 Critical Rating

    Rare Vanguard Rune of Power
    +4399 Tactical Mastery Rating
    +1624 Critical Rating

    Rare Vanguard Rune of Healing
    +7410 Outgoing Healing Rating
    +1624 Critical Rating

    Incomparable Vanguard Rune of Force
    +5279 Physical Mastery Rating (~20% increase)
    +1624 Critical Rating

    Incomparable Vanguard Rune of Power
    +5279 Physical Mastery Rating (~20% increase)
    +1624 Critical Rating

    Incomparable Vanguard Rune of Healing
    +8892 Outgoing Healing Rating (~20% increase)
    +1624 Critical Rating

    And as for Grand Abyssal runes:

    Grand Abyssal Rune of Force
    +6870 Physical Mastery Rating
    +2572 Critical Rating

    Grand Abyssal Rune of Power
    +6870 Physical Mastery Rating
    +2572 Critical Rating

    Grand Abyssal Rune of Healing
    +11571 Outgoing Healing Rating
    +2572 Critical Rating

    Normally a rating equal to a Northern Stronghold Essence would give an approximate 20% increase to the primary stat if these are item level 345, but increasing the secondary rating contribution to 80% of an item level 345 Essence throws off the pattern. I estimated a ~40% increase to the primary stat for Grand Abyssal runes in this example.

    Even if the runes are not used as replacements in a given character's build, they would provide some viable alternatives in a few cases (for example, Beornings currently do not receive any benefit from Tactical DPS runes, but still have a number of tactical damage skills available to them -- a bonus to Tactical Mastery Rating would provide an optional benefit, if not running a healing build).

    EDIT: Just discovered the existence of Abyssal and Greater Abyssal runes on the current Bullroarer build, and the math checks out for them both being item level 337 (the Critical Rating bonus on them is ~60% and ~80% of an item level 337 Abyssal Essence of Critical Rating, respectively) -- I'm certain now that Grand Abyssal runes are item level 345. Adding alternate relic choices for them following this pattern would also probably be a good idea.
    Last edited by RingOfFire; May 09 2018 at 08:36 PM.
    One less Orc in the world is a good thing, and one less leader among the Orcs is a great thing.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel90 View Post
    I do have to ask why all the major changes to classes suggested in Bullroarer Update 22.2 are coming now in the middle of a raiding season?
    This is not the middle of a raiding season at all; Abyss was first completed on T2C 5 months ago. As far as I'm aware all OC titles have been claimed for it.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  13. #13

    Not in patch notes, change to Rust and Rime deed

    For those who have been grinding along every week, and have completed 8 of 9 in the Rust and Rime deed, we discovered on live today that there was no 9th quest, and no reward of 50 tokens. Logging into Bullroarer to see that in 22.2 the carrot has been shoved far ahead so that the Rust and Rime deed will now require 16 steps, is a real kick in the teeth. Why not complete the first phase of the deed at 8 and pay out the 50 tokens, and then have a second group of 8 for the second 50 tokens? Doing the dailies, and twice a week wrapper, with any regularity will mean that in another 8 weeks the 100 tokens may be worthless by then, because they probably won't be needed anymore.

  14. #14
    What about legendary 2 handed inherent stats scaling badly? A 2 handed weapon or Runestone offers less stats than having an offhand weapon equipped. An imbalance only set to get worse with increased levels/gear.

    How about making it easier to get the stats you want? disenchanting a 2 handed weapon could provide stat scrolls also to use. Allowing us to pick the stats we want on the legendary item without having to make 50+ items to get a good one.

    Ps. no yellow hunter work? no trap or lingering wound buffs? A few buffs could go a long way.
    Last edited by Happychappy; May 09 2018 at 09:02 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Feoline View Post
    Which I personally totally agree with. It will always be a bad time for someone and class balance has to start somewhere after being ignored since forever. And starting it before new raids and dungeons come out (which is still a while off, so you can tweak and tinker with classes in the meantime), especially with your renewed focus on classic MMORPG dungeon content, this time is now.
    I agree as well - and the timing isn't bad at all. This is the first build, and it's far better to do it now when the raid has been out for a long time, let people test, get it into prod in time for real use, before new instances are out. In reality we're 2 months or more out from a release of any of this into prod, I assume. So the timing is fine, and best to get on with what many people (if not most) have been asking for.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    102
    I agree, now is a good time for class balance passes. I would like to see the passive stats on 2H weapons addressed too, right now the potential stats from an offhand almost completely overshadow any reason to use a two-handed weapon

  17. #17
    Join Date
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    • Year 1 quests have a max level of 50, all others have a max level of 51 so please be sure you complete all the quests before leveling above 51
    *SIGH* that means I STILL won't be able to do the anniversary quests on most of my characters since most of them are level 51 or over but nowhere near level cap.

  18. #18

    Thanks for destroying my class

    I played my Minstrel for like 40 mins on BR and tried different builds, after this time i needed to log out, in order to calm down.
    Sorry, but i have to say, that you completely destroyed the blue tree and it seems like we are supposed to go yellow now?
    The changes are so massive, that I kinda lost all the fun with this class and will stop to play my main for sure - 2nd in line would be the Cappy, but it isn´t even half of the fun i had with the Mini.
    For me, the game turned into a direction, i can´t longer accept. It´s all about burst damage and healing out the rediculous damage on tanks for the raid. I wonder how a Mini is supposed to heal AoM T2 at all. The tact. healing rate benefit from relics will go from 192 (CoS T2 relics) to 41 or somewhat.
    It´s hard enough to even form a raid on Landy, but like this, i´ll NEVER EVER unlock this stupid gear. I really wonder, if i can even heal out CoS T2 2nd boss, since the outgoing heals feel like a lvl20 scrub in Barrows with U22.2, lol
    The trait trees after HD have been one thing, we got over it and after a while it was ok, since we got the relics. But what happens now, is that we get forced to swap into a trait line that is nerfed now (the anthems no longer stack) and even the fact, that we can hold up 2 different anthems without swapping trees won´t help, because we are overcapped in mits for T2s anyways and the relics, which made it acceptable, went down the drain.
    My RK won´t be used after the update and i guess, raiding ends here completely for me.
    But hey, maybe i just go tanky on my Mini, we got this awesome 2.5% block for the removed HoT xD

    Thanks for that, now i can focus on playing my lute at Bree and annoy other players with wierd sounds, but in the long run, i´ll just lose the interest in the game itself, because my main will rot in hell. Not to mention that prolly bears will do the healing job now, what makes RKs and Minis pretty useless.
    I mean, i´m bored with the huge grind and the repeative dailies since a while, but if you take away my raids, i´ll take that really personal and move on.

    playing: 21 pilots - be concerned - Lute of Ages (4:03)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Alabama
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    795
    The best option is probably to entirely remove the damage/healing runes. It was a poor design choice to begin with that didn't address the imbalance between tactical and physical dps, but instead blindly buffed rks, lms, and minis. They are in a better spot on BR than they have been on live, but addressing the overall damage from different skills by comparing parses from skilled players is probably the better way to go about buffs/nerfs (which is likely difficult to find since many are on break from the game since the raiding cycle is essentially over).
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    8,354
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Cord i wanna tell you (even tho this is the first build) the ssg destroyed the game, the raiding game. Cause none of these important change are necessary and wanted. People asked for viable guard dps for questing and such they got that nice. People asked for champions blue line to get scaled and the dps improved, they got that, nice. But now minis got a giant nerf that completly destroys their class and the way minis heal you are making the new grind to re learn the classes massive and for no good reason. Improve the classes that are struggling and leave the good ones alone. speaking of good ones and im sure you know about this after 10 seconds of br testing yall absolutely destroyed rks. And we all want refunds for our relics
    We do not need bolstering our courage. This is just about adjusting magnitude of heals. Especially when minstrel is already auperior in terms of interesting gameplay. Stop the easymode minstrel. If some groups cant do t2cm with proper minstrel of old. Boo hoo. Maybe they need to get better.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
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    2,167
    It seems captains and burglars (in addition to the already noted Beornings) have been left off this update - is that because, like Beornings, their update will be more substantial? Captain DPS is pretty painful at the moment when questing, for example!
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
    - Afranius, R9 WL - Tolobain, R7 Weaver - Vargan, R6 Stalker -

    Ex-Leader of Lost Realm of Imladris - Evernight - Co-Founder of Beauty and the Beasts

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    313
    A small touch but the new war-steed turning looks nice and smooth, so it was a nice surprise, along with some instruments being visibly equipped on the back! Thanks, these little changes really add stuff for some of us. Now if we could just get shields to be able to be put on the back somehow...even if it's the cloak slot.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
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    Hithlum
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    Tis a monumental task to Revamp nearly single class. The Enormous update. I have not expected the sudden nearly overwhelming source of information. Bold changes. I am satisfied particularly with the lower level version of the Anniversary event {Scavenger quests} and Summer Festivities! The ruination of Thrang! History shall repeat itself! M'Lady shall be pleased. Well Done Standing Stone Masters. Thanks kindly for doing everything in your power. I've said several months ago, The future of LOTRO shines bright. It does indeed. As for details, Impossible to please entire MMO player-base. Hopefully I shall be able to re-download The Bullroarer Client and provide Video Feedback. Eternal Gratitude! May your radiance never cease to shine!

  24. #24
    Great work!!!
    Keep it up!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under Bridge
    Posts
    965
    This is the most interesting update since Throne raid for me.
    Brave changes and lots of them.

    Don't listen to the crybabies , keep barrage , tactical runes and bolster nerfed.
    While you are at it , nerf guardian force taunts too. They are ridiculous , 1 button = boss aggro.
    Or even better , rework aggro and force taunts in general on a later update.

    Give ash to the players that already got the runes , not tokens. The ammount of ash should depend on the rune quality.
    They can use that ash to get runes back if they still want to or spend it elsewhere.
    All live runes should be refunded , from +76 to +125.
    This is the ONLY proper way to go.

    I am hoping you have at least 2 more builds to compare parses between dps classes and go from there.
    It won't be perfect but you can get close , this is a GREAT start , more than i hoped for.
    Also, Minstrel healing viability is not in question here , we simply need to bring more things to the table , but i will comfirm this with more certainty later on.

    That's all from me , cya in the class sub-forums if needed : )

 

 
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