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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Is it really fair to have one class doing double the AoE compared to rest of the pack while wanting to have single target as strong as rest? If single target is as strong as anyones, AoE damage should be at least significantly closer to others. Guardian is probably 2nd highest AoE DPS now (I would imagine around 150k DPS in raids) so champions lead on AoE might be a bit reduced but they probably still do significantly more AoE DPS than any other class.
    I´m fine if they buff other classes AoE damage to a level that it can compete with champions - not that there were many fights lately in endgame where AoE would have mattered (Throne ID6 and what else?).

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaijian View Post
    I´m fine if they buff other classes AoE damage to a level that it can compete with champions - not that there were many fights lately in endgame where AoE would have mattered (Throne ID6 and what else?).
    Mumakils, Vadokhar really were nice with champ AoE, could just nuke bosses and AoE took care of most of the trash. TBH I don't think Champ AoE is balanced. We have had champ on Abyss trash and trash gets cleared so fast compared to hunter/RK stack it's just ridiculous (only works on 2/3rd boss trash thought). If all AoE potent classes would be doing DPS within 30% of champs those pulls would be over so fast and classes like burglar, beorning and captain even worse to play with in comparison in different type of content than raid. So to me only solution would be to nerf Champ AoE. I have been doing 110-140k AoE DPS on RK, which will get nuked after the patch but I seriously don't think that class needs more DPS at all but what's it already doing. Gap it creates to no AoE classes is just too big IMO.

  3. #103
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    Well, champs got a small buff, unfortunately not even close to be at least 1 mandatory spot for the current end game t2c.

    I can only see 2 probabilities in what is happening:

    1) The feedback was listened (and is the best in my opnion among all classes) and red tree is being totally rearranged. So we may have a a lot of changes in a supposed Beta 5.

    2) They realized champs got really nerfed since osgiliath instance cluster and saw they will need to work really hard on the class. So maybe on a future update.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker3388 View Post

    ... and saw they will need to work really hard on the class. So maybe on a future update.
    Actually in this thread there are many good and simple suggestions to fix champions given by knowledgeable players. No need to "work really hard for the future", the future has come, it must be done now.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker3388 View Post
    Well, champs got a small buff, unfortunately not even close to be at least 1 mandatory spot for the current end game t2c.
    No class should be guaranteed a spot. That logic is why we have the current situation of several classes struggling to find a place.
    ~ The devs don't want to balance classes, what chance did I have ~

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    No class should be guaranteed a spot. That logic is why we have the current situation of several classes struggling to find a place.
    There are 10 classes in the game. I don't see a problem to guarantee one! spot for each of them in a 12 person raid.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaijian View Post
    There are 10 classes in the game. I don't see a problem to guarantee one! spot for each of them in a 12 person raid.
    Ensuring that each class needs to be present in a raid group isn't really helping players get into groups, it just helps the class get into groups. The playerbase doesn't equally split up into the 10 different classes nor do they necessarily like playing a particular traitline. Take traitlines into account and you actually end up with 30 different classes, the separation of traitlines isn't great on a few of them but generally they each clearly have different roles.

    In an ideal world raid spots are distributed based on who is best geared/most skilled instead of being based on who happens to be in the class that the group doesn't currently have. People can't really control which class and spec they enjoy, they can control how well they play it.
    ~ The devs don't want to balance classes, what chance did I have ~

  8. #108
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    I'm glad they buffed blue line decently, but it's embarrassing that red line got essentially 0 adjustments when it's intended to be a main ST dps spec. As it was on beta 4, and likely live, red champion will even fall behind red guardian (Guardian is in a fine place, red champion is just too low). Red line champion was the line with the most feedback on it, yet we got nothing to make it viable.

    Yellow line does more dps, provides the group with more benefits... and still isn't very desirable for raid spots due to not being close to hunters in ST dps and having raid mechanics that heavily punish melee classes. Friendlyhat might as well not have done anything if this was all she was going to do.
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  9. #109
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    The Delay for dual weilding vs 2h is huge on live. 2h is simply twice as faster than dual.
    Also, devastating strike was one of the fastest skills, now is just too slow, same with blade wall. Both using 2 1h swords. 2handed seems fine though.
    I think this should be fixed asap. Dual should always be faster than 2h.

  10. #110

    My champ is broken

    Since update 22.2, there is significant skill lag on champs. It takes 2-4 seconds to trigger a combat skill. Makes combinations impossible. My champ is bricked and unplayable now.

  11. #111
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    Dual Wield Skill Animations Broken

    As stated above. Most damage skills now have totally unreasonably long skill animations if you're using a 1h sword. Makes the class super clunky and terrible feeling to play.

    EDIT: The 1h sword on it's own seems to be okay. It's once you equip the offhand as well that the animation time bugs out
    Last edited by Pelind; Jun 04 2018 at 11:51 PM.

  12. #112
    I agree with the two previous posts. It's very annoying to have such delays between skills in red champion, and it's very difficult to make animation cuts. I know that further work on classes should give priority to rk, bears, captains, burglars... but I hope this problem will be solved.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlir83 View Post
    I agree with the two previous posts. It's very annoying to have such delays between skills in red champion, and it's very difficult to make animation cuts. I know that further work on classes should give priority to rk, bears, captains, burglars... but I hope this problem will be solved.
    Ditto - This needs a bump
    "Never argue with a fool, it's difficult to tell the difference"

  14. #114
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    Minstrels have been complaining about the nerfs they received, and will likely be compensated, judging by Cordovan's stream. Minstrels are currently fine, they don't need buffs. Their healing needs to be re-distributed, so that the healing rotation actually becomes interesting. But instead, they're likely going to get buffed, just because the vast majority of players struggle to adapt to changes.

    Meanwhile, champions have largely been silent, despite receiving the short end of the stick when it comes to class balance. Red line champions are still far behind other classes in terms of ST DPS, and still far ahead of other classes in terms of AoE DPS. Just the fact that champions are largely silent on these issues (seemingly) doesn't mean that SSG should ignore them.

    When is yellow champion AoE damage going to be nerfed so that it's in line with other AoE specs?
    When is red champion ST damage going to be buffed so that it's in line with other ST specs?

    FriendlyHat has basically ignored all of the feedback that was given in this thread. Then what was the point of creating it, in the first place? It's shameful.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post

    FriendlyHat has basically ignored all of the feedback that was given in this thread. Then what was the point of creating it, in the first place? It's shameful.
    I would be so harch, several things were adjusted based on feedback. Ofc, i would love to see such great communication like Vastin did on the Hunter thread.
    What i realy ask myselfe is, is the champion getting so massive overhall, like hunter/redguard/minis got, or is this just about numbers tweaking. I realy hope that we get more then this number adjustments.
    Much work has still to be done to fix current issues with the Champion, redline/singeltarget Dps in particular. Im looking at you partial bpe ,animationspeed (pls fix the dwarfs ) and animation interuptions.
    Gertes

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    When is yellow champion AoE damage going to be nerfed so that it's in line with other AoE specs?
    When is red champion ST damage going to be buffed so that it's in line with other ST specs?

    FriendlyHat has basically ignored all of the feedback that was given in this thread. Then what was the point of creating it, in the first place? It's shameful.
    It would be great if they could spare just 30 seconds of their time to come here and say something, at least.

  17. #117
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    "When is yellow champion AoE damage going to be nerfed so that it's in line with other AoE specs?"
    I don't think you should be comparing yellow champion's AoE to tanks or ranged AoE DPS (at least not with current raid mechanisms). Maybe it would be better to compare survivability and DPS between blue champs, guards and wardens.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Meanwhile, champions have largely been silent, despite receiving the short end of the stick when it comes to class balance. Red line champions are still far behind other classes in terms of ST DPS, and still far ahead of other classes in terms of AoE DPS. Just the fact that champions are largely silent on these issues (seemingly) doesn't mean that SSG should ignore them.
    I almost exclusively play in blue line now, and I find it's fun to play. I consider red broken and yellow situational. Since we don't have much communication about champs I can only assume that's what they were going for. With the nerfed healing on minis, I think blue line becomes more important. I don't have a max level guard or warden to compare, but it's possible that blue champs could just be inferior versions of one of their lines.

    In the past my preference was red > yellow > blue. Now it's blue > yellow > red (I haven't even traited red since the update). Part of the problem for red is that the legacies become worth less and less as your physical mastery increases because they're additive to PM (red line skill legacy damage increases are greater than yellow or blue, but the difference in actual dps becomes smaller and smaller as you increase physical mastery).

    If you look at the amount of work that was put into each line in the last update, and pair that information with the nerf in mini healing, then I think it's likely we're being pushed into blue line for raiding. If that's correct, then we should probably be more focused on the place of blue line champs in terms of survivability and dps with guardians and wardens, than anything else. I'm guessing we should probably have better survivability than red guards, higher dps than blue or yellow guards, higher DPS than wardens when they're healing, and higher survivability than wardens when they're doing DPS. Wardens should probably NOT be quite able to be able to gain the same level of survivibility and dps as blue champs by mixing skills - their advantage being flexibility.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post
    "When is yellow champion AoE damage going to be nerfed so that it's in line with other AoE specs?"
    I don't think you should be comparing yellow champion's AoE to tanks or ranged AoE DPS (at least not with current raid mechanisms). Maybe it would be better to compare survivability and DPS between blue champs, guards and wardens.
    Yes, I should. We all should. It's quite clear that yellow champions are uncontested when it comes to AoE. That should not be the case. Why should one domain of PvE be controlled by a single spec, in its entirety? It makes no sense. Other classes should be competitive for AoE DPS as well. The problem is that no other class has an AoE focused spec. Maybe some should be introduced. Considering that the theme of this BR forum is "class balance", I think it's very appropriate to discuss how overpowered yellow champs are in terms of AoE DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post
    I almost exclusively play in blue line now, and I find it's fun to play. I consider red broken and yellow situational. Since we don't have much communication about champs I can only assume that's what they were going for. With the nerfed healing on minis, I think blue line becomes more important. I don't have a max level guard or warden to compare, but it's possible that blue champs could just be inferior versions of one of their lines.

    In the past my preference was red > yellow > blue. Now it's blue > yellow > red (I haven't even traited red since the update). Part of the problem for red is that the legacies become worth less and less as your physical mastery increases because they're additive to PM (red line skill legacy damage increases are greater than yellow or blue, but the difference in actual dps becomes smaller and smaller as you increase physical mastery).

    If you look at the amount of work that was put into each line in the last update, and pair that information with the nerf in mini healing, then I think it's likely we're being pushed into blue line for raiding. If that's correct, then we should probably be more focused on the place of blue line champs in terms of survivability and dps with guardians and wardens, than anything else. I'm guessing we should probably have better survivability than red guards, higher dps than blue or yellow guards, higher DPS than wardens when they're healing, and higher survivability than wardens when they're doing DPS. Wardens should probably NOT be quite able to be able to gain the same level of survivibility and dps as blue champs by mixing skills - their advantage being flexibility.
    I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Discussing blue line champions is a different thing entirely. I'm talking about red line and yellow line, both of which need attention. I'm definitely not focused on the place of blue line champs, no matter what we're being pushed towards, because I don't enjoy playing it. I created my champion because I wanted to play it in red line.

    Moreover, there's no reason why one trait line should be inferior to another. If they made blue line competitive, that doesn't mean that red line can be neglected. I'm not sure what you tried to get across here, but in my eyes, you're just going off on a tangent.

  20. #120

    Global time reset (obvious bug)

    It's mentioned above numerous times, but I'm pointing it out again since a current bug is very obviously effecting Champion play:

    Specifically, the global time reset on skills has been changed by Update 22. There used to be seamless transfer between skills. Now, however, there are delays immediately following skills. The global reset times vary based on the skill, however anything following Raging Blade gets a longer delay. On average, these delays are about 2 to 3 seconds. However, going from Raging Blade to Fury of Blades to Blade wall will land you a delay of nearly five seconds. I'm sure this wasn't intended.

    To track these delays you can bring up the Skill Queue from the UI Options. There are times where the hour glass won't even start emptying for a few seconds after the use of Raging Blade. Then you have the delay while it empties as well.

    Can we please, at least, get this listed as a known issue so we are informed that something is being done to fix the bug?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Yes, I should. We all should. It's quite clear that yellow champions are uncontested when it comes to AoE. That should not be the case. Why should one domain of PvE be controlled by a single spec, in its entirety? It makes no sense. Other classes should be competitive for AoE DPS as well. The problem is that no other class has an AoE focused spec. Maybe some should be introduced. Considering that the theme of this BR forum is "class balance", I think it's very appropriate to discuss how overpowered yellow champs are in terms of AoE DPS.
    So you are a Champ and you don't think Champs should be best in class with AoE, they should only be comparable with other classes? There is a reason other classes don't have melee AoE skills like a champ.

    I would agree the balance within the Champ trees is not good right now, red needs help, yellow doesn't need help and blue isn't any better off than red IMO.

    However, before they make any more changes they need to FIX THE SKILL DELAY!
    "Never argue with a fool, it's difficult to tell the difference"

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximilan View Post
    So you are a Champ and you don't think Champs should be best in class with AoE, they should only be comparable with other classes? There is a reason other classes don't have melee AoE skills like a champ.

    I would agree the balance within the Champ trees is not good right now, red needs help, yellow doesn't need help and blue isn't any better off than red IMO.

    However, before they make any more changes they need to FIX THE SKILL DELAY!
    I'm satisfied with both yellow and blue line changes. I would also be okay if red line DPS fell just slightly below Red burg DPS (say if red burg did 65k DPS, Red champ should be at 60k). One simple way I think this could be done is more strongly tie blade and strikes skills to the yellow and red line respectively. The idea would be to have (something along the lines of) 40% of the base damage of strike skills tied to being in red line, and 40% of the base damage of blade skills tied to being in yellow. This would allow yellow champs to still go down the red line, but the strike skills obtained would not be very strong in comparison to their blade skills, and vice versa when you are running in Red. *

    Most champs are going to be yellow 90% of the time. In my view, red line really is about those situations where you either cannot AoE or there is only one target and you want to be able to put up the numbers to still be a viable DPS class (i.e., certain boss fights). I think the concern is that if red line strike skills are increased in damage, people will go deep into both lines. Making champs OP at both single and AoE at the same time. But a simple shift along these lines would allow for greater balance between yellow and red lines by ensuring a clear trade off in choosing one spec over the other.

    Blue line of course would still provide full base damage for both strike and blade skills... but if a player decided to go down this root to do DPS, they would have to contend with the fact that they do not get nearly as many points to spend in either red or yellow, and the would also be an aggro magnet, making them disruptive to tanks and a challenge to support.

    * 40% is just an arbitrary amount. I have not worked out what would be an appropriate % using actual rotations and skill damage data.

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximilan View Post
    So you are a Champ and you don't think Champs should be best in class with AoE, they should only be comparable with other classes? There is a reason other classes don't have melee AoE skills like a champ.

    I would agree the balance within the Champ trees is not good right now, red needs help, yellow doesn't need help and blue isn't any better off than red IMO.

    However, before they make any more changes they need to FIX THE SKILL DELAY!
    Problem with having strong aoe is it becomes gimmicky in pve raids (trash collector) and might be a factor for our lower ST DPS in redline compared to other classes... ultimately, if nothing else, I'd want to do more ST DPS in redline than yellow, that would be a good start.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Yes, I should. We all should. It's quite clear that yellow champions are uncontested when it comes to AoE. That should not be the case. Why should one domain of PvE be controlled by a single spec, in its entirety? It makes no sense. Other classes should be competitive for AoE DPS as well. The problem is that no other class has an AoE focused spec. Maybe some should be introduced. Considering that the theme of this BR forum is "class balance", I think it's very appropriate to discuss how overpowered yellow champs are in terms of AoE DPS.
    If other classes want better AoE, then that's fine. But comparing their current AoE to the AoE of yellow line champs when those classes have range, far superior survivability, far superior CC, or superior buffs/debuffs is a bit silly. I don't think you'll find another class that wants to give up the advantages they have to become like champions. Nor should they have those advantages and essentially gain a champs AoE as well. There are several ways to accomplish what you're talking about in a balanced way, but all of them would either making big changes to either champs or the other class. I don't think any of those changes are desired. However, which lines do you think would be willing to give up their unique abilities to become more like yellow line champions?

    Right now, the closet comparable class is probably wardens. Wardens have higher ST DPS, much greater survivability, a lot more buffs, and a lot of other special skills champs don't have. They're a bit hard to compare though because their abilities are more in their gambits than in their lines. I suspect it may be possible for a warden to have greater survivability and more AoE DPS than blue line champs right now based on the gambits they use, but I don't really know and can't test it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Discussing blue line champions is a different thing entirely. I'm talking about red line and yellow line, both of which need attention. I'm definitely not focused on the place of blue line champs, no matter what we're being pushed towards, because I don't enjoy playing it. I created my champion because I wanted to play it in red line.

    Moreover, there's no reason why one trait line should be inferior to another. If they made blue line competitive, that doesn't mean that red line can be neglected. I'm not sure what you tried to get across here, but in my eyes, you're just going off on a tangent.
    The issue is that SSG seems to be going in one direction, whereas you want them to go in another. Some of what you seem to want is frankly not reasonable and will never happen. I suspect you're going to be very frustrated with the game. However, I agree that they really need to fix red line because they've created so many situations where AoE DPS is a negative in raids and instances. I suspect the best future we can hope for with champions is a blue line that is useful in most situations, and a red and yellow we can switch to for situations where AoE is unwanted or when dying in yellow line isn't much of an issue.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    I'm satisfied with both yellow and blue line changes. I would also be okay if red line DPS fell just slightly below Red burg DPS (say if red burg did 65k DPS, Red champ should be at 60k).
    I agree that red line DPS should be above yellow line DPS. However, what is the rationale you're using to say it should be below red burgs? If you compare things such as surviability, duffs/debuffs, and CC, what advantages do you think red line champions have over red burgs to warrant lower DPS?

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    One simple way I think this could be done is more strongly tie blade and strikes skills to the yellow and red line respectively. The idea would be to have (something along the lines of) 40% of the base damage of strike skills tied to being in red line, and 40% of the base damage of blade skills tied to being in yellow. This would allow yellow champs to still go down the red line, but the strike skills obtained would not be very strong in comparison to their blade skills, and vice versa when you are running in Red. *
    One of the problems most people don't realize is that the damage bonuses from legacies for specific skills are additive to physical mastery percent, and don't multiply by it. So, as your physical mastery becomes larger and larger, the bonus from the legacy becomes less and less of a a factor. A lot of the skills in red line or general champion skills can get a bonus of +43.8% from the LI. On the other hand, blue and yellow line skills can only get +29.2%. At 100% physical mastery, this is a pretty big advantage for red line over yellow or blue, whereas at 400% physical mastery it's a pretty small advantage. So, as you increase your physical mastery, red loses some DPS advantages. I think this issue also needs to be addressed one way or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by keztryl View Post
    Most champs are going to be yellow 90% of the time. In my view, red line really is about those situations where you either cannot AoE or there is only one target and you want to be able to put up the numbers to still be a viable DPS class (i.e., certain boss fights). I think the concern is that if red line strike skills are increased in damage, people will go deep into both lines. Making champs OP at both single and AoE at the same time. But a simple shift along these lines would allow for greater balance between yellow and red lines by ensuring a clear trade off in choosing one spec over the other.

    Blue line of course would still provide full base damage for both strike and blade skills... but if a player decided to go down this root to do DPS, they would have to contend with the fact that they do not get nearly as many points to spend in either red or yellow, and the would also be an aggro magnet, making them disruptive to tanks and a challenge to support.

    * 40% is just an arbitrary amount. I have not worked out what would be an appropriate % using actual rotations and skill damage data.
    Unfortunately we're in a situation where AoE is frequently not desired, and can often cause a failure in raids. Yet, our single target DPS line is not attractive. It would be great if raids were built with Champions in mind, where there was an indispensable role for us. However, that doesn't appear to be the case, and nobody is going to go back and change the old raids anyway. So we're stuck with a situation where our most unique role is unnecessary in many situations and undesirable in others. The solution many of us have offered is allowing us to switch to another line in those situations where we can still contribute. Since raids aren't going to be changed to accommodate AOE champs, we need an ST dps line that is desirable.

    As far as blue line, that's what I'm now in 90% of the time because the survavibility is so much greater than yellow, and the tradeoff for DPS is not too bad. From my experience, blue line champs do get a lot of threat, and mobs tend to stick to blue champs because as they hit the champ threat increases. Every single other class that can tank has a taunting ability superior to blue champs though. So, they should be able to taunt the bosses away. For that reason, I think blue line champs have a good role collecting adds and DPSing them. They can also help relieve some of the DPS on the main tank in other situations.

    If you look at what blue line champs have 3 significant self heals with CDs of 1 min, 1.5 min and 5 min. 5 min is too long for a lot of situations, but the other two could be available again when the next set of adds appear at a boss depending how fast you DPS the boss. I think a smart way for the developers to utilize blue line champs would be to let them build up a lot of threat, to attract ads, but allow the main tank to easily build up treat with the boss, and allow them to taunt the boss back if it becomes an issue. I smart raiding group would then wait for their blue champs CDs to run out before DPSing the boss to get the next set of ads. A less strategic group would find that their blue line champ isn't ready to take on the ads if they DPS the boss too fast, and then find that those ads will wind up attacking them.

    If the blue line champ can't take the continuous DPS of the boss, but can (with some help) wipe out ads before the ads can get through their bubble, self heals, and morale, then I think they'll have a nice role as an off-tank for ads, while not threatening the role of the main tanks.

 

 
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