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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcentralx View Post
    Confirmed Russian troll who mains gaurd.

    A perfect rotation right now yields literally nothing. Avoidance gambits are useless when most attacks bypass avoidance. Crit D has heavy DR so no grounds are made there and even if it did it's below guards. Self heals are low, Cappy heals more. Zero utility for the group except small dps increase, which is a mute point when all of these buffs you so perfectly kept up with your perfect rotation yield you nothing and you end up dead.

    Buffs aren't 40s, 24-30s is top.

    This update is not a success for warden a as of update 4 bc it still leaves wardens with nothing to change their standing. It's too little too late. If a boss hits for 200k and you move wardens morale from 150k to 190k it's still a wipe. So everything that was changed is still useless. Devs need to read this, interact and make relevant changes. Increasing Gambit builder morale tap by 100% is a joke.
    First off, if you have just 150k morale as tank warden in group you are under geared in live. On very much minimum 170k in groups as tank warden and if boss hits you for 200k you are messing up mechanic in instances/raids. If you think wardens offer no utility to the group you really need to re-read your skills, traits and gambits.

    Second point:
    https://i.imgur.com/uJf1439.jpg

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    First off, if you have just 150k morale as tank warden in group you are under geared in live. On very much minimum 170k in groups as tank warden and if boss hits you for 200k you are messing up mechanic in instances/raids. If you think wardens offer no utility to the group you really need to re-read your skills, traits and gambits.

    Second point:
    https://i.imgur.com/uJf1439.jpg
    There are only 2 ways of getting higher than 150k morale on warden tank: Using all might jewellery (which you're not supposed to even though you can) and using some scaled pelennor instances armour or osgiliath bracelets and stacking pure vitality on it. (which I guess devs didn't expect you to use).
    My calculations of using absolutely every piece of agility armour from raid t2/best gear from ashes and using no other essence than vitality (thus ignoring finesse completely and not being able to tank efficiently) are that you get around 145k morale unbuffed (with all stat tomes and vit legacies).

    Edit: as for the 2nd point that is using a non imbued sword that will reduce the self heal you do and won't allow you to get 100% partials, all that for a 10s duration increase that nobody would use since lvl 105, so I would like if you didn't try to prove your point with tricks or stuffs that nobody uses.
    Last edited by Kander; May 31 2018 at 01:14 PM.

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by xcentralx View Post
    Confirmed Russian troll who mains gaurd.

    A perfect rotation right now yields literally nothing. Avoidance gambits are useless when most attacks bypass avoidance. Crit D has heavy DR so no grounds are made there and even if it did it's below guards. Self heals are low, Cappy heals more. Zero utility for the group except small dps increase, which is a mute point when all of these buffs you so perfectly kept up with your perfect rotation yield you nothing and you end up dead.

    Buffs aren't 40s, 24-30s is top.

    This update is not a success for warden a as of update 4 bc it still leaves wardens with nothing to change their standing. It's too little too late. If a boss hits for 200k and you move wardens morale from 150k to 190k it's still a wipe. So everything that was changed is still useless. Devs need to read this, interact and make relevant changes. Increasing Gambit builder morale tap by 100% is a joke.
    I mean even on live you can get through tanking AoM t2c with a good group so Warden's CAN tank* but who in their right mind would bring one over a Captain or Guardian? Now that they've nerfed the %debuff of marked and diminished target, there is literally 0 advantage to bringing a Warden to any of the bosses in AoM or any raid for that matter. I'd wager that the Dev's make certain bosses that pierce avoidance because if those bosses didn't, then Guardians would be down right unkillable in a raid.

    What they need to do is give Wardens a way to mitigate the EXACT SAME amount of damage through whatever means as a Guardian, or give us enough group buffs yo compete directly with a Captain. Otherwise, it will always be the case that a group bringing a Warden tank will be at a disadvantage over a group bringing the other two.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Red Line seems to be in a good spot dps wise to me right now. Consistently parsing 50k after perfecting the mastery order in my new rotation.


    Still think the Red Warden is in a good spot? Did Recklessness even get touched? Very disappointed in where things stand currently.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwha View Post
    Still think the Red Warden is in a good spot? Did Recklessness even get touched? Very disappointed in where things stand currently.
    No partials. Abnormal critical chance...

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwha View Post


    Still think the Red Warden is in a good spot? Did Recklessness even get touched? Very disappointed in where things stand currently.
    Wow so Red Guardian is outparsing both Red Warden and Red Champion by a fairly large margin now? Tbh 56k for a Red Guardian is WAY too high. RK's are still down at 40-45k. That parse is damn near Hunter level.

    Guess I should delete my Warden and Champions since guards are better tanks and NOW better DPS too.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    First off, if you have just 150k morale as tank warden in group you are under geared in live. On very much minimum 170k in groups as tank warden and if boss hits you for 200k you are messing up mechanic in instances/raids. If you think wardens offer no utility to the group you really need to re-read your skills, traits and gambits.

    Second point:
    https://i.imgur.com/uJf1439.jpg
    Wardens can debuff some, its really not that much. I wouldnt call that utility. Unless youre talking about the OP conviction heals?

    On live currently there is no reason to use a non imbued weapon though, conviction line gives no mits so no reason to swap it around really. Sure with update use your non imbued swap but the duration should still be increase/duration should be added to imbued LIs.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Wow so Red Guardian is outparsing both Red Warden and Red Champion by a fairly large margin now? Tbh 56k for a Red Guardian is WAY too high. RK's are still down at 40-45k. That parse is damn near Hunter level.

    Guess I should delete my Warden and Champions since guards are better tanks and NOW better DPS too.
    Did several parses on Warden over 60k already so its not completely outdpsing Warden, also Champ can reach up to 58k DPS, also I think that a fair majority of Guardians will struggle even getting 50k, but of course there are exceptions as Guardians that get 56k. I agree that 56k on a Guard is way to much, whilst previous build was almost 15-20k lower. Vastin should aim for a 75-80% damage output for classes that have a secondary role as DPS. A Guard with a peak of around 40k seems very likely to me, as the majority of people can still extend their limits on DPS parses on several classes. Warden and also Champion are currently concerning DPS on a very good level and should get way less attention then the Guardian in this stage.


    As for the moaning on RK's, there are still several classes TBD (RK, Captain, Beorning, Burglar) these classes will get attention just like any other just not on this patch but on the next. So the moaning for this part is completely inappropriate, you guys are just not patient enough!

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Geremir View Post
    Did several parses on Warden over 60k already so its not completely outdpsing Warden, also Champ can reach up to 58k DPS, also I think that a fair majority of Guardians will struggle even getting 50k, but of course there are exceptions as Guardians that get 56k. I agree that 56k on a Guard is way to much, whilst previous build was almost 15-20k lower. Vastin should aim for a 75-80% damage output for classes that have a secondary role as DPS. A Guard with a peak of around 40k seems very likely to me, as the majority of people can still extend their limits on DPS parses on several classes. Warden and also Champion are currently concerning DPS on a very good level and should get way less attention then the Guardian in this stage.


    As for the moaning on RK's, there are still several classes TBD (RK, Captain, Beorning, Burglar) these classes will get attention just like any other just not on this patch but on the next. So the moaning for this part is completely inappropriate, you guys are just not patient enough!
    Would LOVE to see some actual screenshots with parses over 60k, even with lucky double procs and trying out the +25% Bleed Damage set bonus from Throne I was peaking at 55k. That was even with a parse of over 40% crit chance and 2% partial evade. I guess I could be doing something wrong but I doubt my rotation could be improved enough to be regularly getting 55k-60k+.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geremir View Post
    Did several parses on Warden over 60k already so its not completely outdpsing Warden, also Champ can reach up to 58k DPS, also I think that a fair majority of Guardians will struggle even getting 50k, but of course there are exceptions as Guardians that get 56k. I agree that 56k on a Guard is way to much, whilst previous build was almost 15-20k lower. Vastin should aim for a 75-80% damage output for classes that have a secondary role as DPS. A Guard with a peak of around 40k seems very likely to me, as the majority of people can still extend their limits on DPS parses on several classes. Warden and also Champion are currently concerning DPS on a very good level and should get way less attention then the Guardian in this stage.


    As for the moaning on RK's, there are still several classes TBD (RK, Captain, Beorning, Burglar) these classes will get attention just like any other just not on this patch but on the next. So the moaning for this part is completely inappropriate, you guys are just not patient enough!
    Yeah, using that parse as argument just shows lack of understatement about guard class. Abnormal amount of criticals, no partials and so on. That's one out of hundred tries type of luck. Most will round around 45-50k DPS but even that requires really decent rotation.

    If guardian is getting nerffed to 40k It's quite fair to expect warden should be around 45-47k.

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    If guardian is getting nerffed to 40k It's quite fair to expect warden should be around 45-47k.
    But then FriendlyHat appears:

    Xolla;Tishina

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddharta View Post
    But then FriendlyHat appears:
    Well, you made me suddenly stop what I was doing and look for new patch notes with some concern.
    ~ The devs don't want to balance classes, what chance did I have ~

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcentralx View Post
    Blie line warden currently has many problems, gambits, legacies and traits all need to be reworked. The legacies are poor and unhelpful, and the traits are probably even worse off with capstone bonuses like morale tap on gambit builders. Probably the worst cap stone in the game. this single trait reflects the whole of blue line right now.

    Tankiness
    Since avoidances are no longer a thing, wardens take far too much damage because the lack in mits that avoidances were suppose to make up for no longer works.
    1. increase mits to 60% (5%pasive, 5% conviction) to make up for the loss in avoidance mechanics
    2. add damage reduction to the Shield Up gambit (15-20% range) (Maybe 30% and each hit reduces it by 5%)
    3. incoming healing should be added to each shield-spear HoT, 5% to each, maybe a stacking sytem based on crits, or just a direct buff from the gambits

    4.Critical hits are another issue for wardens, increasing the mitigations and dmg reduction will help with this already, but self ehals were supposed to be the other side of the coin to help make up the difference in damage taken. so between avoidances and self heals a healer would work just as hard ot heal a warden as a guard. Self heals cannot save you from a 1 shot, unless...
    a. Shield Tactics should have a critical defense mechanic to it, turning the critical hit (or portion, ie. whatever crit D % you have) into a DoT would be a new interesting
    mechanic that would allow self heals to make up for the damage difference. Right now there are roughly 6 useful gambits out of 30, so this would help remedy that
    also.



    Cooldowns:
    1. Seperate defiant chaleneg mits and force tuant, make a seperate cd for mits (ie. 20-25% mits for 20-30s 1-1.5min cd)
    2. Instead of NS cd starting on application haev it start on usage, critical hits and critical heals should then reduce the cd by 2-4s
    3. some type of avoidance cd, could be helpful for trash pulls or ads in a boss fight

    Utility:
    1. Warden has nothing to offer here. All other tanks have soem way in which they can aid the group from taking damage. This could be a cooldown skill that turns 50% of the groups damage into a DoT( simialir to the Crit D idea) this way once again wardens self heals could find a role, attach a 30% inc healing buff to this skill also.
    2. Think about adding an additional group benefit to conviction ie. inc healing or mits


    Miscellaneous:
    1. Make gambits quicker, gambits build too slow to be reactive. incrase attack speed and animations.
    2. Reduce CD of masteries when hit with a crit or based off of something
    3. Dance of war and defiant challenge animations are too long
    4. Gambit buffs are too short, 30s base with a 10s buff duration legacy needs to be added back. Wardens have so many gambits but not all are relevant, or if they were you couldnt keep them up anyway due to the short durations.

    I could go more into legacies and traits but I will just say, look at legacies and traits to make these changes. Do not make a vanilla class, make a class you build around a goal or tank style (boss, trash). Something that you can make better or worse depending on how you gear out and trait.
    1. ie. legacy/blue trait +% of critical hit Turned into a DoT, or +crit DoT duration (thus reducing magnitude fo each DoT and increaseing self heals benefit)
    2. duration legacies and traits are great, other than that use these to alter mechanics


    If you are thinking that this is too much and warden would be OP, captains and guards currently have more survivability thatn what i haev just laid out for wardens. These changes would help close the gap for sure, but damage taken would still put wardens at the highest, depending on the percentages and magnitude of these additions to wardens. even if these put wardens ahead, wardens still haev fewer cool downs or utility than either guard or captain.

    Where is FriendlyHat? We have gotten no feedback or response on anything from this forum or much less seen it in the beta. Warden in build 4 is still a largely sub par tank lacking hugely compared to other classes. A couple good things have happened but its really not enough and doesnt address the real issues or go far enough. Please look at what myself and others have posted and rework wardens. Roll the hcanges back to the next class patch if needed but the current beta is a joke.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddharta View Post
    But then FriendlyHat appears:

    Gold. Just gold.

    But this is assuming there will be a Beta 5 for next update. If Cordovan's statement still holds true, we might be looking at a half-baked warden in live servers next week.

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Hejazia.Arkenstone View Post
    Gold. Just gold.

    But this is assuming there will be a Beta 5 for next update. If Cordovan's statement still holds true, we might be looking at a half-baked warden in live servers next week.
    Really hoping that isn't the case.

  16. #166
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    That is pretty sad considering how much time they spent on other things that aren't relevant or an issue.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddharta View Post
    But then FriendlyHat appears:

    That was too good !
    #NotUnfriendlyHatJustShy

  18. #168
    Friendlyhat fixed lot of wardens issues, thank you very much. I think there is no time for separating mitigation buff or panic skill from defiant challenge in this round of changes. We just need gambit animation polish, so there will be no delay between gambits and please increase buff duration by 10s. I would like to see DC with same duration as guardians challenge, but before this change you have to separate mitigation buff from force taunt. Also you have to be sure , that our aoe gambits will generate enough threat. There is still space for more healing from life taps, due to bad mordor scalling and increased morale from lvl 105 to 115 (70k vs 200k morale). We still have worse survivability in boss fights than guardians but have better utility skills. If captains lose their 25% morale buff, tank balance will be in good spot.
    Last edited by Krindel; Jun 02 2018 at 06:40 AM.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Friendlyhat fixed lot of wardens issues, thank you very much. I think there is no time for separating mitigation buff or panic skill from defiant challenge in this round of changes. We just need gambit animation polish, so there will be no delay between gambits and please increase buff duration by 10s. I would like to see DC with same duration as guardians challenge, but before this change you have to separate mitigation buff from force taunt. Also you have to be sure , that our aoe gambits will generate enough threat. There is still space for more healing from life taps, due to bad mordor scalling and increased morale from lvl 105 to 115 (70k vs 200k morale). We still have worse survivability in boss fights than guardians but have better utility skills. If captains loose their 25% morale buff, tank balance will be in good spot.
    Just FYI guard Challenge is on 1 min cooldown. Other points are really good.

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Friendlyhat fixed lot of wardens issues, thank you very much. I think there is no time for separating mitigation buff or panic skill from defiant challenge in this round of changes. We just need gambit animation polish, so there will be no delay between gambits and please increase buff duration by 10s. I would like to see DC with same duration as guardians challenge, but before this change you have to separate mitigation buff from force taunt. Also you have to be sure , that our aoe gambits will generate enough threat. There is still space for more healing from life taps, due to bad mordor scalling and increased morale from lvl 105 to 115 (70k vs 200k morale). We still have worse survivability in boss fights than guardians but have better utility skills. If captains loose their 25% morale buff, tank balance will be in good spot.
    I agree that FriendlyHat has improved quality of life for Tanking Wardens. I could live with these changes, but Blue line definitely still needs some polish/scaling. It should be balanced on a Survivability vs. Group utility scale for tanks. Notice I'm not including Beorn or Champion because Beorn is a broken class, and Champ tank line is mostly an afterthought to appease old school players who moaned and groaned about losing shield use and glory stance. But Hilariously, Champ tanks can mitigate significantly more damage than a Warden, and Beorn's can hold aggro much easier, and even mitigate similar levels of damage as a Warden. TBH on live right now, I'd take a Beorning to boss 1 and 2 of Abyss over a Warden.

    A balanced ranking system would resemble something like the following:

    Survivability:
    1. Guardian
    2. Warden
    3. Captain

    Group Utility:
    1.Captain
    2. Warden
    3. Guardian

    As it stands on Live its more like this:
    Survivability:
    1. Guardian
    2. Captain
    3. Champion
    4. Beorn
    4. Warden

    Group Utility:
    1. Captain
    2. Warden
    3. Guardian

    On Live Warden's are great for off tanking in bosses like Fingar because of their induction/mitigation skills. But as a Class whose main role is tanking, should be a prime pick = to guardian for all 3 bosses of the Raid.

  21. #171

    What am I missing regarding the optimism of the changes?

    Why the optimism regarding the changes?

    I ask because my Warden is not yet max level and many of you are at end game so have a clearer view of the totality of the game.
    Having said that I am not new to the class. What occurs to me regarding the "class balance" changes are as follows.

    The Warden's main role is a tank. Yet on live we cannot main tank or struggle mightily to do so.

    Did that change?

    The end result of the changes is more of the same. The Dev started by providing some help with additional mitigation and morale.
    Then, as "compensation", the Dev nerfed the heck out of DC.

    Wardens needed a tanking buff without any loss. So to me this looks like a fail.

    Red line appears to have had its damaged buffed. That is a positive.
    Is it enough extra damage that our "tank" class will now take an end game DPS spot? Is that the cause of the optimism?

    The neglected (by players) Yellow line will remain largely underplayed.
    Does anyone believe the changes to Yellow make it viable outside of a few niche situations?


    The Warden's "claim to fame" on live is that it is is the best solo class. We've even seen siiperi complain here (wrongly in my view)
    about Warden's ability to solo some group instances.

    The strong mitigation buff of DC was put there for a reason. We need more time than other classes to get up our gambits.
    That needed time was removed along with a healthy portion of Warden's solo ability.

    To be able to solo is one of the main reasons I play Warden. I doubt I am alone in this.
    FWIW, I tank for my kin with a Guard.

    Time will tell how this plays out but my view is that the end result of the changes are that Warden's ...

    Still cannot end game tank
    Are somewhat stronger in red line damage
    Lost a significant amount of solo ability from the DC nerf
    Last edited by afuturestrader; Jun 01 2018 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Typos

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Would LOVE to see some actual screenshots with parses over 60k, even with lucky double procs and trying out the +25% Bleed Damage set bonus from Throne I was peaking at 55k. That was even with a parse of over 40% crit chance and 2% partial evade. I guess I could be doing something wrong but I doubt my rotation could be improved enough to be regularly getting 55k-60k+.
    If Bullroarer was only open for a few more days I could get you a few screenshots. The majority of damage is decided on the first minute, but maintainable also dependent on your gear.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Yeah, using that parse as argument just shows lack of understatement about guard class. Abnormal amount of criticals, no partials and so on. That's one out of hundred tries type of luck. Most will round around 45-50k DPS but even that requires really decent rotation.

    If guardian is getting nerffed to 40k It's quite fair to expect warden should be around 45-47k.
    Hmmm, from my perspective of few there are always a few individuals that do more damage then others, maybe you don't. Fact is that the majority fails to reach certain parses and we simply are making calls on individuals that reach a parse which is way beyond others? I think thats poor judgement.
    Are there actually other Guardians even close to 56k? I can reach near 48-50k on my own Guardian, but 6-8k overlap is still quite a difference. I obviously fail somewhere, but still there are people that parse also way below that and make their judgement on seeing a parse thats 6-8-10-12k above their own.

    As for your second point I can only ask, whether you see warden as a main DPS class or not? As a second question, whether you want warden DPS to be nerfed because Guardian is your main? or because there are actual people that can parse this high?
    Last edited by Geremir; Jun 01 2018 at 02:59 PM.

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Geremir View Post
    Hmmm, from my perspective of few there are always a few individuals that do more damage then others, maybe you don't. Fact is that the majority fails to reach certain parses and we simply are making calls on individuals that reach a parse which is way beyond others? I think thats poor judgement.
    Are there actually other Guardians even close to 56k? I can reach near 48-50k on my own Guardian, but 6-8k overlap is still quite a difference. I obviously fail somewhere, but still there are people that parse also way below that and make their judgement on seeing a parse thats 6-8-10-12k above their own.

    As for your second point I can only ask, whether you see warden as a main DPS class or not? As a second question, whether you want warden DPS to be nerfed because Guardian is your main? or because there are actual people that can parse this high?
    I personally am of the mindset that Warden's and Guardian's should not be tier 1 DPS classes due to the fact that they're supposed to be the game's main Tank classes. Imagine you're a new player on the character creation screen like I was 9 years ago. Both Warden and Guardian are claimed to be classed with primary role of Defense. Now imagine you want to be a Tank and you level one of these classes all the way up only to find out it's actually better at its secondary role than its primary role. What a shocker that would be.

    As for Red line Warden, and any other class for that matter, there is definitely a major average that top tier players fall into. It's not like there is some miracle rotation that only some players are capable of discovering which makes them upwards of 10% higher than this average. Sure, if the average was based on ALL players who play the class, then there is going to be a ton of variation top to bottom. This isn't the case though, you've got a select few players who get incredibly lucky parses and then post those parses in Hope of getting their epeen stroked.

    It's not like needing to keep up 9 DoT's with near 100% uptime is anything new for the class. The only thing that has changed is the priority in which a player applies certain DoT's.The application speed of these abilities is throttled by mastery cooldowns so there is really no way around the minimum time it takes to apply all 9 DoT's.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geremir View Post
    Hmmm, from my perspective of few there are always a few individuals that do more damage then others, maybe you don't. Fact is that the majority fails to reach certain parses and we simply are making calls on individuals that reach a parse which is way beyond others? I think thats poor judgement.
    Are there actually other Guardians even close to 56k? I can reach near 48-50k on my own Guardian, but 6-8k overlap is still quite a difference. I obviously fail somewhere, but still there are people that parse also way below that and make their judgement on seeing a parse thats 6-8-10-12k above their own.

    As for your second point I can only ask, whether you see warden as a main DPS class or not? As a second question, whether you want warden DPS to be nerfed because Guardian is your main? or because there are actual people that can parse this high?
    That's why I said abnormal amount of criticals and using that as argument how much guardian does that someone used is bad one as I said.


    I don't see warden as DPS class no. Both warden and guardian are tank classes with both should having lower DPS than actual DPS classes. Warden a bit higher than guardian. But neither on the level of real DPS classes but on 2nd class behind actual DPS. But if guardian is nerffed for example to 40k DPS, wouldn't it be ridiculous to have another tank class doing 55-60k DPS, while supposedly to be as good tank? Imo guardian should be about 25-30% behind top DPS. Warden 15-20%.

 

 
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