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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    154

    Post Class Update - Loremasters

    Hey Folks, Vastin here!

    As you can see, we're posting a bunch of new class updates - this thread will deal with the changes specific to the Lore-master.

    Please bear in mind that these changes are not in their final form yet and we will definitely be making an additional round of changes before we go live.

    For example, with the Lore-master I've already gotten enough feedback to convince me to return Wizard's Fire to the core rotation - though I'll still be changing its role and effects somewhat.

    As Cordovan requested in his initial post, please try to keep your feedback focused on your own impressions and opinions, and refrain from commenting on each other's thoughts - it makes it far easier for us to parse through the volume of feedback constructively and lets us read through a wider breadth of opinions.

    -Vastin


    Lore-master


    This update mostly focuses on the red dps line, with some simpler changes to the yellow line. The blue line I've mostly left alone, though of course there are a number of general skill changes that will affect them. Mostly I'm looking to make some QoL upgrades to the class - tone down the sheer number of buttons a bit, while bringing its direct damage up somewhat, its healing up, and its power restoration down considerably from its current state of 'Free Power For Everyone Forever!'. The debuffing and pet capabilities should be essentially untouched. My guess is that in its current state the damage is still a bit lower than it wants to be, particularly because of some unintended consequences of removing Wizards Fire, so I'll be addressing that shortly.


    • Trait Changes
      • Removed red tree trait 'Empowering Fires'
      • Red tree Trait 'Rapid Fire' now scales to a 25% induction reduction for 5 points (was 10% for 2), moved it to tier 4
      • 5th red line set bonus now renamed to 'Hasten', it now grants a cooldown bonus to Sticky Gourd, Lightning Storm, and Ents go to War when the 'Staff Sweep' ability strikes at least one target.
      • Fierce Lightning trait now scales to a 100% chance of ignition (was 50%)
      • Flame of Arnor may or may not be properly applying to gust of wind (tooltip is definitely wrong)

    • Skill Changes
      • Normalized dmg for all loremaster skills/effects.
      • Increased base dmg of most battle skills/effects.
      • Reduced cooldown of Lightning Strike to 10 seconds.
      • Removed Wizard's Fire and moved most of its ember effects to Gust of Wind. (Note: WF will be coming back, but it will behave somewhat differently)
      • Gust of Wind is now an area of effect. Some further adjustment in the way Gust of Wind interacts with the burning embers' spead and intensify effect may need to be made.
      • Increased base and dot heal values of water-lore, light of hope, beacon of hope.
      • Added cooldowns to Share Power (10s) and Share Power - Fellowship(30s), and substantially reduced their magnitudes.
      • Pleasant Breeze is now a Heal rather than a Power restore.
      • Water-lore's healing buff is now base 0%, gains 5% when traited. (30% group inc heal buff just too big)
      • Power of Knowledge has been removed.
      • Removed all 'Hasten' skill buttons from the red line - these effects now occur when you use 'Staff Sweep'.
    Last edited by Vastin; May 09 2018 at 03:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,746
    We are excited to be able to bring you this class work on Bullroarer, and look forward to reading your feedback. In order to get the most from your feedback, we would very much like you to do the following in this thread:


    • Make sure your feedback is focused on the class work seen in the Release Notes and the writing above, or focused on your specific feedback regarding the class in cases when you feel it necessary to discuss things beyond what is in the notes.
    • DO NOT REPLY TO OTHER POSTS IN THIS THREAD TO PROVIDE YOUR OPINION ON THEIR POST. We want to be able to use this thread to foster a productive discussion between you and the development team, and that means we are less interested in your opinion about someone else's opinion. If you are responding to another poster in this thread, it should not be to provide your opinion about their post. If you are providing feedback that is not in-line with another person's post, you can simply provide that information independently. Posts about someone else's feedback that are opinion-based in nature WILL be deleted from this targeted feedback thread. If you must have this discussion, please do so in a new thread on the Bullroarer forums, and not in this thread.
    • Please be civil. Insulting, harassing, abusive, or profanity/filtered profanity-laden posts will be deleted. We welcome critical feedback as it relates specifically to the work being done, but this thread is not the place to provide your opinion on the development team itself, or your view on the historic work that has been done or not done in regard to class balance. In order to get the most use out of this thread, you can expect me to be a bit more heavy-handed on moderation than I typically am.
    • Recognize that this class balance work is not a comprehensive and final adjustment to classes, but is rather the first in a series of changes aimed at improving LOTRO's classes throughout the game. We are happy to read about what further work you would like to see, but want to make sure you understand that this is not the final step in this process.


    There is some chance that we will not respond immediately to your comments today, as we would like to gather some feedback initially in a relatively "neutral" way prior to providing responses. Thank you for your help in making sure we get this right, both now and in the future, and thank you for the time you spend on Bullroarer in the coming days to try out these changes in-game.
    Community Manager, Lord of the Rings Online
    Follow LOTRO on: Twitter - Facebook - Google+ - Pinterest - Twitch - YouTube
    Find Cordovan on: Twitter Instagram
    Support: help.standingstonegames.com
    coolcool

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey Folks, Vastin here!

    As you can see, we're posting a bunch of new class updates - this thread will deal with the changes specific to the Lore-master.

    Please bear in mind that these changes are not in their final form yet and we will definitely be making an additional round of changes before we go live.

    For example, with the Lore-master I've already gotten enough feedback to convince me to return Wizard's Fire to the core rotation - though I'll still be changing its role and effects somewhat.

    As Cordovan requested in his initial post, please try to keep your feedback focused on your own impressions and opinions, and refrain from commenting on each other's thoughts - it makes it far easier for us to parse through the volume of feedback constructively and lets us read through a wider breadth of opinions.

    -Vastin


    Lore-master


    This update mostly focuses on the red dps line, with some simpler changes to the yellow line. The blue line I've mostly left alone, though of course there are a number of general skill changes that will affect them. Mostly I'm looking to make some QoL upgrades to the class - tone down the sheer number of buttons a bit, while bringing its direct damage up somewhat, its healing up, and its power restoration down considerably from its current state of 'Free Power For Everyone Forever!'. The debuffing and pet capabilities should be essentially untouched. My guess is that in its current state the damage is still a bit lower than it wants to be, particularly because of some unintended consequences of removing Wizards Fire, so I'll be addressing that shortly.


    • Trait Changes
      • Removed red tree trait 'Empowering Fires'
      • Red tree Trait 'Rapid Fire' now scales to a 25% induction reduction for 5 points (was 10% for 2), moved it to tier 4
      • 5th red line set bonus now renamed to 'Hasten', it now grants a cooldown bonus to Sticky Gourd, Lightning Storm, and Ents go to War when the 'Staff Sweep' ability strikes at least one target.
      • Fierce Lightning trait now scales to a 100% chance of ignition (was 50%)
      • Flame of Arnor may or may not be properly applying to gust of wind (tooltip is definitely wrong)

    • Skill Changes
      • Normalized dmg for all loremaster skills/effects.
      • Increased base dmg of most battle skills/effects.
      • Reduced cooldown of Lightning Strike to 10 seconds.
      • Removed Wizard's Fire and moved most of its ember effects to Gust of Wind. (Note: WF will be coming back, but it will behave somewhat differently)
      • Gust of Wind is now an area of effect. Some further adjustment in the way Gust of Wind interacts with the burning embers' spead and intensify effect may need to be made.
      • Increased base and dot heal values of water-lore, light of hope, beacon of hope.
      • Added cooldowns to Share Power (10s) and Share Power - Fellowship(30s), and substantially reduced their magnitudes.
      • Pleasant Breeze is now a Heal rather than a Power restore.
      • Water-lore's healing buff is now base 0%, gains 5% when traited. (30% group inc heal buff just too big)
      • Power of Knowledge has been removed.
      • Removed all 'Hasten' skill buttons from the red line - these effects now occur when you use 'Staff Sweep'.
    These changes all seem nice except the share the power cd this seriously hurts lms in pvp but other then that stuff looks good

  4. #4

    Wizard's Fire and Flanking

    So, without Wizard's Fire, how does a Loremaster cash out Flanking? Or is Flanking gone too??

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey Folks, Vastin here!

    As you can see, we're posting a bunch of new class updates - this thread will deal with the changes specific to the Lore-master.

    Please bear in mind that these changes are not in their final form yet and we will definitely be making an additional round of changes before we go live.

    For example, with the Lore-master I've already gotten enough feedback to convince me to return Wizard's Fire to the core rotation - though I'll still be changing its role and effects somewhat.

    As Cordovan requested in his initial post, please try to keep your feedback focused on your own impressions and opinions, and refrain from commenting on each other's thoughts - it makes it far easier for us to parse through the volume of feedback constructively and lets us read through a wider breadth of opinions.

    -Vastin


    Lore-master


    This update mostly focuses on the red dps line, with some simpler changes to the yellow line. The blue line I've mostly left alone, though of course there are a number of general skill changes that will affect them. Mostly I'm looking to make some QoL upgrades to the class - tone down the sheer number of buttons a bit, while bringing its direct damage up somewhat, its healing up, and its power restoration down considerably from its current state of 'Free Power For Everyone Forever!'. The debuffing and pet capabilities should be essentially untouched. My guess is that in its current state the damage is still a bit lower than it wants to be, particularly because of some unintended consequences of removing Wizards Fire, so I'll be addressing that shortly.


    • Trait Changes
      • Removed red tree trait 'Empowering Fires'
      • Red tree Trait 'Rapid Fire' now scales to a 25% induction reduction for 5 points (was 10% for 2), moved it to tier 4
      • 5th red line set bonus now renamed to 'Hasten', it now grants a cooldown bonus to Sticky Gourd, Lightning Storm, and Ents go to War when the 'Staff Sweep' ability strikes at least one target.
      • Fierce Lightning trait now scales to a 100% chance of ignition (was 50%)
      • Flame of Arnor may or may not be properly applying to gust of wind (tooltip is definitely wrong)

    • Skill Changes
      • Normalized dmg for all loremaster skills/effects.
      • Increased base dmg of most battle skills/effects.
      • Reduced cooldown of Lightning Strike to 10 seconds.
      • Removed Wizard's Fire and moved most of its ember effects to Gust of Wind. (Note: WF will be coming back, but it will behave somewhat differently)
      • Gust of Wind is now an area of effect. Some further adjustment in the way Gust of Wind interacts with the burning embers' spead and intensify effect may need to be made.
      • Increased base and dot heal values of water-lore, light of hope, beacon of hope.
      • Added cooldowns to Share Power (10s) and Share Power - Fellowship(30s), and substantially reduced their magnitudes.
      • Pleasant Breeze is now a Heal rather than a Power restore.
      • Water-lore's healing buff is now base 0%, gains 5% when traited. (30% group inc heal buff just too big)
      • Power of Knowledge has been removed.
      • Removed all 'Hasten' skill buttons from the red line - these effects now occur when you use 'Staff Sweep'.


    if ur gonna make a skill this WORTHLESS YOU MIGHT AS WELL GET RID OF THE DAMN THING

    lmao yall cant see it but power restore restores like 2k power with a 10 second cd

  6. #6
    lightning storm might need a nerf but really nice changes overall except the cooldown on share the power. the magnitude nerf seems fine but the cooldown is really bad in pvp, esp that powerdrain is too strong atm.
    Last edited by jomanjy; May 09 2018 at 09:13 PM.
    Deathlyheals r14 defiler-Deadlyline r10 warg -karnage

    freeps-faded

  7. #7
    The power restore is a huge problem.

    Right now in PvP, a spider can drain a freep of their entire power pool in about 10-15 seconds.

    Without the LM power restore, this is a huge problem in group play.

    If you plan to nerf the power restore (I would suggest actually buffing it) then a counter-move needs to be made in PvP. Either nerf the power drain skills creeps have or give some pvp power pots on smaller cooldowns with higher power restore features.

    Otherwise, this change is a horrible, horrible idea.


    And yeah - what do you do to cashout flanks without wizard's fire?

  8. #8
    I completely agree w everything Yuglie said. Power is a huge issue right now in PvP. HUGE. Spider drain, defiler flies, warg bite = no power, immediately, permanently. Pots are NOT a viable defense against this.

    Fellow power restore really isn't a strong enough defense AS IS. If you nerf it, you basically doom freeps to having no power at all in any group action fights.

    You need to buff power restore, or at the very least leave it alone, or find some way (better pots with faster CD) to allow freeps to restore their power. This is a really bad idea, and yuglie nailed it.
    [Gladden] Second Marshal Clevinger, Third Marshall Katsimbalis, [Arkenstone] Third Marshal Aristedes [Gladden] Lieutenant Creamsicle
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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Michigan
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    5,825
    My two cents (one cent per thought):

    1. Can we have some insight on what WF will do? Please keep in mind this is the LM's only mobile, ranged, single-target, no-CD, no-induction ability. It's in no way overpowered. I don't even really care what it does in terms of effects, but LMs need some way to quickly aggro specific mobs on the fly. I use this skill all the time for its other uses as well, such as cashing out a flank or stirring up embers.

    2. Please please please please can we have Power of Knowledge back? What was wrong with this skill? One of the LM's primary roles is to be a source of power to the fellowship. Especially if power management becomes a thing again (beyond just PvMP), how is an LM supposed to supply power without a skill to get power? Furthermore, this skill has the COOLEST animation in the entire game. I am feeling more than a little heartbroken over seeing that animation die.
    R5 105 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    572
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuglie View Post
    The power restore is a huge problem.

    Right now in PvP, a spider can drain a freep of their entire power pool in about 10-15 seconds.


    And yeah - what do you do to cashout flanks without wizard's fire?
    Forget PVP, in PVE, a disease bomb can wipe the group's power. IIRC, fears can also affect ICPR or OCPR.

    Even after the revamp to fate that made power relatively unimportant, I've been in longer fights where most classes eventually were unable to keep up with the power drain of their skills, and then I started having to manage not only their power but my own).

    Without the ability to manage power, LMs are going to find it even it harder to get into a group, especially a raid.

    Staff-Strike cashes out a flank with extra damage, but that assumes the MoB is near enough to strike. I was just on BR. It appears they haven't changed the trait trees yet (Hasten is still a Red-Line bonus), and I was sorely missing WF. Water-Lore has gotten a huge improvement, but it is still barely enough to make up for damage from the end-game region MoBs, especially if you have to take on multiple enemies.

    I never learned to kite mobs because kiting just wasn't possible with the LM's skill set - inductions that are broken by movement (being tossed by a troll) or that are susceptible to interruption by an enemy, and then getting rooted at the end of the animation (that was often my downfall in the Erebor raid, which emphasized mobility). At least with WF, I could move a bit and damage the guy. In fact, that's often how I defeated MoBs in some of the Mordor resource instances - I had to run in circles just out of reach of the boss while spamming WF. Glad I finished those instances before this change.

    I'm not a numbers guy, or min/maxer. I just want to survive, and not take a minute to kill some random, worthless landscape mob.
    Jewahe

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    My two cents (one cent per thought):

    1. Can we have some insight on what WF will do? Please keep in mind this is the LM's only mobile, ranged, single-target, no-CD, no-induction ability. It's in no way overpowered. I don't even really care what it does in terms of effects, but LMs need some way to quickly aggro specific mobs on the fly. I use this skill all the time for its other uses as well, such as cashing out a flank or stirring up embers.

    2. Please please please please can we have Power of Knowledge back? What was wrong with this skill? One of the LM's primary roles is to be a source of power to the fellowship. Especially if power management becomes a thing again (beyond just PvMP), how is an LM supposed to supply power without a skill to get power? Furthermore, this skill has the COOLEST animation in the entire game. I am feeling more than a little heartbroken over seeing that animation die.
    Really good point here. Wizards fire is a uniquely useful/important skill for the LM.

    And yeah you really risk breaking the game if you:
    -remove power of knowledge
    -nerf share power skills

    Please don't let the game become unplayable.
    [Gladden] Second Marshal Clevinger, Third Marshall Katsimbalis, [Arkenstone] Third Marshal Aristedes [Gladden] Lieutenant Creamsicle
    5.1 million renown and counting!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    UK
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    I'm glad wizard's fire has been reconsidered - it is a crucial skill for questing and deeding (having to pick up all mobs via an induction skill would be painful...) and for kiting at the moment, due to the high damage produced by mobs.

    I suppose I also wanted to see a recognition that, other than lightning storm, LM dps has been lagging far behind the other tactical classes (and indeed other classes) for some time now. If I'm questing somewhere where a champion or hunter already is, I might just about manage to tag a mob with wizard's fire before it dies, as they kill it in seconds, but it takes much longer with current LM dps. Gearing up nicely in the new zone and the tactical runes have boosted my dps a bit, but it still sits firmly behind most classes in terms of dps output. I've not been able to get on to Bullroarer to try these changes out yet, but I really hope that this has been rectified.
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
    - Afranius, R9 WL - Tolobain, R7 Weaver - Vargan, R6 Stalker -

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  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Somewhere in Middle-earth
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    679
    Here is my feedback after reading the changes.

    Power restoration: if you plan to introduce the cd for the skills, I would let their magnitude untouched. LMs are power batteries from old times and I don´t like the idea of removing this role. I have no issue with changing the refreshing breeze, but I would keep power of knowledge. (the moral heal isn´t that important as power heal).


    Flanking: since HD class revamps is this mechanic forgotten. It seems for me, that with the idea of removing the Wizard fire this mechanic is still forgotten. I really like this mechanic and I would like to see an increase of its value. If wizard fire woudl be removed, I would like to see the use of flanking effect moved to other skills.
    Ich bin kein Deutscher, sorry für Grammatik
    Eglish isn't my native language, sorry for mistakes

  14. #14
    Wizard's Fire:
    The swapping of Searing Embers to Gust of Wind in itself could be okay, IF you reduce the cooldown on Gust of Wind, and either drastically reduce the induction (even with the change to the trait) or just remove it entirely. Otherwise I'm going from a mob with multiple stacks of Searing Embers to maybe getting 2 onto it. This feels like a damage nerf if anything, if Gust of Wind remains unchanged.

    The main concerns I have have already been raised, but I'll state them anyway.
    1) I will no longer have a long range instant cast pull for mobs. This is a big one for me.
    2) I will no longer have a heal from flanking. I like that right now I have three choices for what I want to do from a flank.

    If the Hasten effects are going on Staff-sweep (which I really don't see the point in, I'm pressing an extra button either way), are you removing the crit chance effect to the next fire skill and putting it somewhere else? It would seem a bit much for one skill to have to hold.

    Is there any chance of reducing the cooldown on Sword and Storm? It's hardly overpowered, so allowing us to do it maybe every 30 seconds instead of every 60?
    Xandarien Elanessa, Híril of Pupils of the Istari on Evernight

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  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
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    11

    LM changes feedback

    Hello all,

    These are my 2 cents on the changes made to the LM so far.

    - Removing the hastened skills to prevent skill cluttering is great. I was never a big fan of the way it was implemented, and changing this to a non-flanking requirement and guaranteed effect on Staff Sweep seems like a good choice. This will make the LM less of a stationary spell caster, and force him/her to get into the fray to maximize your damage.

    - Increasing the induction reduction to 25% on Rapid Fire wasn't necessarily needed but suits the playstyle described above. A welcome change.

    - The reduced cooldown on Lightning Strike is a nice bonus as well, however the issue of cashing out burning/searing embers still exists. The cashout damage still is mediocre at best, whilst removing the most damaging skill the LM has. Furthermore, the 20% chance of calling down an extra lightning strike seems too RNG heavy. Perhaps changing this to 50%, but requires ancient craft up to provide this bonus?

    - Changing Fierce Lightning to 100%, seems to tackle the same problem, reducing RNG. Sadly the trait doesn't seem to work after testing, it leaves the fire but deals no damage. (To training dummies at least). But even if it did, I doubt it would deal significant damage, if you look at how it is on the live servers. Hopefully we can test this out in the next Bullroarer session.

    - Removing Wizard's Fire... not a fan. Although it's supposedly coming back, simply copying its effects and putting them on Gust of Wind is not an elegant solution. For starters, Gust of Wind has a 10 second cooldown compared to Wizard's Fire. Moreover, the induction is still the longest of all the damaging skills. This makes the LM unable to get up 3 searing embers. As others have mentioned, this also means it will take too long to react to a flanking pet for a heal. (even though that healing will need scaling to the current level as well) You seem to realise having an on the move, no-cd but low damaging skill is a pretty big thing by bringing it back, so I am interested to see what you come up with.

    - Increased healing was desperately needed. I feel like Water-Lore is in a pretty good spot right now. The incoming healing aspect was obviously overtuned and it's pretty fair right now. Maybe increase the range of Water-Lore by 5m? 15m is just slightly too short of a range.

    - Beacon of Hope is supposed to be an AoE heal, but the radius of the skill is ONLY 4m from the initial target. I'd definitely recommend drastically increasing this to even 20m at the least. It's a beacon after all, they tend to be *seen* from a longer distance

    - Pleasant Breeze.. changing it to a heal was nice, but the heal is simply too little for the requirements it has. You would only take this whilst yellow-traited, meaning that you don't slot crit rating to activiate this skill in the first place. Second, when yellow traited Gust of Wind has an even longer induction when you cannot take Rapid Fire. I like the mechanic, but it's not realistic. It being a ground targeted skill is a nice change of pace, but then again it only has a 7m radius. This really needs to be increased to say 30m for it to be worth taking.

    - Power sharing nerfs are justified. Giving it a cooldown was the least you could do. But on top of that, reducing the values by that much? A questionable move, I'd say the cooldown on its own would make both skills quite fair. But then again, with hunters not being able to spam barrage anymore, maybe it's not THAT desperately needed.

    - Bring back Power of Knowledge. One of the best skill animations, while providing some nice utility. Even though it was hardly (if at all) used at level cap, changing it a bit would mean a lot to us players rather than simply removing it.

    In conclusion a great start to the upcoming class changes.

    - Change Gust of Wind and Pleasant Breeze accordingly
    - Interested to see what you come up with for Wizard's Fire
    - Give back Power of Knowledge!

    PS.
    Things to look at in the future that aren't related to these changes:

    - Morale cost on skills is irrelevant at level cap. Maybe increase this whilst buffing the damage?
    - Scale up the flanking mechanic rewards
    - Rework pets, in the sense that they each fill a unique role. The Raven fire-mitigation debuff would fit better (thematically) on the Sabre-Tooth, for example. Maybe add more pet skills when blue traited?
    Last edited by Arathrinn; Jun 02 2018 at 05:10 PM.

  16. #16
    First, I have to say that the upcoming class balance is greatly appreciated and I am eager to see further changes.

    However, as someone who mains a lm I have 3 major concerns with the proposed changes to the class:

    1) Wizard's Fire. As others have mentioned this is own only non-induction skill and also the only ranged skill that can be used whilst moving. Losing this is going to be a major set-back. Not only will it make things like deeding or questing that much more tedious but it also negates our ability to kite. I persoanlly would be happy to keep the skill as a low-damage dealing DOT, even after all the ember effects are moved to Gust of Wind.

    2) Power Restore. Nerfing both the magnitude and introducing a cooldown seems a bit extreme. It is my opinion that you should do one of the other but not both. Others have used examples of power restore in PVP, and while it has been nearly a year since I have last been in the Moors, I do have to say that in raiding due to some boss mechanics (such as auras or length of the fight) one of the lm's main duties is to act as a battery. Making our ability to do this less effective and you are making our place in raids less viable.

    3) Power of Knowledge. This is the only way for a lm to restore their own power without using a power pot, which aren't really an option tbh, (especially with Wizard's Fire being removed). Granted it probably is rarely used in a raid situation (except for those fights where water-lore spam was needed) however it can be useful on landscape.

    Once again, the changes are greatly appreciated but please do listen to the feedback of the players especially when it comes to the concerns we have.

  17. #17
    If staffskills depend on mainhand DPS and not tactical DPS, then when will mainhand DPS of ILI start to raise with playerlevel?
    Staffstrike and -swipe just get weaker whenever level raises, if this isnt done.
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  18. #18
    Join Date
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    12
    Good consensus of opinions I think: Wizards fire has been such a major skill for Loremasters, it is a huge change for us. Power restore is 'our thing'. We want Flanking to be meaningful again. etc.

    I agree with the points raised above.

    I like that in Blue line wizards fire, (and the upgrade to searing embers), is single target. Using an AoE skill is not always a good idea, I want to be able to upgrade to searing embers safely.

    Pleasant breeze heal in yellow I don't think will be used, who casts gust of wind in a raid?

    Lightning strike cooldown reduction will not make me use it more. It is better to let searing embers run. With all our fire damage debuffs I hope this is not expected to be our new main source of single target damage. It would be better to remove the induction imo.

    It is great to see classes revamped though, i am pleased to see you are already listening to and responding to the feed back. Thankyou.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Talathir View Post
    Lightning strike cooldown reduction will not make me use it more. It is better to let searing embers run. With all our fire damage debuffs I hope this is not expected to be our new main source of single target damage. It would be better to remove the induction imo.
    Lightning strike cooldown so low is needed to be able to use yellow-line-debuffs at will. With lightning skills, you can apply -50% ranged damage on enemies. With the long cooldown that lightning strike had before, it was impossible to sustain that debuff.
    With the low cashout damage, low damage and long induction its right, that its not really worth it for damage though. However, sometimes, you dont want to have dots running and then its again useful to cash them out to apply CC afterwards. So while not really needed for dps, its a great addition for CC/debuff abilities of a LM.
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  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Lightning strike cooldown so low is needed to be able to use yellow-line-debuffs at will. With lightning skills, you can apply -50% ranged damage on enemies. With the long cooldown that lightning strike had before, it was impossible to sustain that debuff.
    With the low cashout damage, low damage and long induction its right, that its not really worth it for damage though. However, sometimes, you dont want to have dots running and then its again useful to cash them out to apply CC afterwards. So while not really needed for dps, its a great addition for CC/debuff abilities of a LM.
    Yes that's true the reduced cooldown would be useful for applying the debuff. I don't think the cash out removes all the dots running though, not ideal for stopping dps to apply cc. That is actually what I personally always wanted gust of wind to be changed to do, 'blow out' all the embers running in an AoE, possibly for a cashout.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    154

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    These changes all seem nice except the share the power cd this seriously hurts lms in pvp but other then that stuff looks good
    Yes. I think I'm probably going to have to address this by looking at the power-drain abilities on creeps (and a couple instances) and reducing their magnitudes somewhat to help keep some parity.

    The problem is that massive power restore trivializes power for all group content, and I don't wish to maintain that just because a Weaver can obliterate your pools in 15s flat.

    Note that we're not trying to make power management a Big Deal in this update. We haven't really messed with power costs at all and a lot of builds don't have serious power issues, but nor do we want the concept to be trivialized by a single class ability.

    The magnitudes of the CDs and actual power restore values are of course still subject to change, so feel free to opine on those as you see fit. LM's are definitely supposed to still be able to provide the primary power battery role for groups in extended content.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Yes. I think I'm probably going to have to address this by looking at the power-drain abilities on creeps (and a couple instances) and reducing their magnitudes somewhat to help keep some parity.

    The problem is that massive power restore trivializes power for all group content, and I don't wish to maintain that just because a Weaver can obliterate your pools in 15s flat.

    Note that we're not trying to make power management a Big Deal in this update. We haven't really messed with power costs at all and a lot of builds don't have serious power issues, but nor do we want the concept to be trivialized by a single class ability.

    The magnitudes of the CDs and actual power restore values are of course still subject to change, so feel free to opine on those as you see fit. LM's are definitely supposed to still be able to provide the primary power battery role for groups in extended content.
    I can only assume that you are also aware of the fact that the weaver power drain is one of the only things standing between full-mitigation creeps and getting 2-shot by hunter 70k-100k crits back-to-back. If you're going to remove power drain/nerf creeps in any way, please do so while you are buffing their survival.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Talathir View Post
    Yes that's true the reduced cooldown would be useful for applying the debuff. I don't think the cash out removes all the dots running though, not ideal for stopping dps to apply cc. That is actually what I personally always wanted gust of wind to be changed to do, 'blow out' all the embers running in an AoE, possibly for a cashout.
    Yep, thats true. All lightning Skills always just cash out one fire-dot. I wouldnt mind that being changed. But as a yellow LM, quite often there are enemies who only have one embers running, maybe because I misaimed and shot at one I wouldnt have wanted or something... cashing those out and reCCing is a nice thing, but even then, lightning strike is quite slow to do that. The enemy usually hits the LM who tries to cash out dots before CCing, if he uses any other skill than Storm-Lore. But even if its only for -50% ranged damage, the CD reduction to 10s is nice.
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  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,354
    I think small compromise for single target powershare would be for best 2-3s lower CD seems reasonable.

    Others are right about creeps going to get rekt after these general class changes. If you have time increasing their audacity damage reduction would be quick bandage before you delve deeper into pvp balancing later this year/next year. But something quick and effective is really needed.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Yes. I think I'm probably going to have to address this by looking at the power-drain abilities on creeps (and a couple instances) and reducing their magnitudes somewhat to help keep some parity.

    The problem is that massive power restore trivializes power for all group content, and I don't wish to maintain that just because a Weaver can obliterate your pools in 15s flat.

    Note that we're not trying to make power management a Big Deal in this update. We haven't really messed with power costs at all and a lot of builds don't have serious power issues, but nor do we want the concept to be trivialized by a single class ability.

    The magnitudes of the CDs and actual power restore values are of course still subject to change, so feel free to opine on those as you see fit. LM's are definitely supposed to still be able to provide the primary power battery role for groups in extended content.
    Look at burglars "Mischievous Delight" and Cappies "Rallying Roar"+"Inspire" to get a feeling to what a LM needs to be compared with.
    Cappy and burgs group-power restore skills are quite strong and if hunters barrage gets the nerf it looks like, no one with a support cappy or burglar in his group will ever have power issues as long as there is no drain effect (okay, maybe Champs that refuse to use second wind, because its "a waste of dps"). Plus, every class in lotro has abilities to regain power and the amount of fate on equipment raised MUCH faster than powerpools. And then, there is still the possibility to use Fellowship Maneuvres for power regen, which are quite potent, too. After the barrage nerf, LMs as power battery will only really be needed to counter powerdrains.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Anführer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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