We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 26 to 43 of 43
  1. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Posts
    19,752
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    "Most of the Eldar after a great march reached the
    Western Shores and passed over Sea; these were the High Elves, who became immensely enhanced
    in powers and knowledge. But part of them in the event remained in the coast-lands of the North-
    west: these were the Sindar or Grey-elves."


    This makes it clear. "but part of them" Them refers to High Elves, remained in the coast-lands of the North-west...these were the Sindar or Grey-leves.
    But doesn't this mean that the Eldar that jumped on a boat are High Elves and the land lubbers are Sindar? Judging from what you said, they are not the same because the High Elves became immensely enhanced in powers and knowledge.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeneth View Post
    Alright, think what you will. Nothing you have said has made any sense to anybody but yourself though. I won't debate any longer with somebody who ignores the Silmarillion as a reference on elves.
    LOL I'm quoting Tolkien's original writing.

    If you even read the Silmarillion the word "High Elf" doesn't even occur in that work once.

    The one and only time it occurs in a book published with the Silmarillion is in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" and it appears once on page 298 of my edition.
    I have cited that source and it says Cirdan is a High Elf. He is also a Sindar Elf.

    We have a strange case where a work was published years after the author died. Materials like the index were prepared after he was gone by an editor that was not the original author so it would seem confusing since in most books (like my own textbook)
    the author has a hand in preparing supplementary materials such as the index.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    270
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    LOL I'm quoting Tolkien's original writing.

    If you even read the Silmarillion the word "High Elf" doesn't even occur in that work once.

    The one and only time it occurs in a book published with the Silmarillion is in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" and it appears once on page 298 of my edition.
    I have cited that source and it says Cirdan is a High Elf. He is also a Sindar Elf.

    We have a strange case where a work was published years after the author died. Materials like the index were prepared after he was gone by an editor that was not the original author so it would seem confusing since in most books (like my own textbook)
    the author has a hand in preparing supplementary materials such as the index.
    Well then you have officially surpassed all other credible Tolkien sources concerning high elves, I must congratulate you on your incredible discovery of Sindar being high elves. Clearly every single other piece of evidence pales in comparison to what you have shown. Be sure to give 'ol Christopher a call to let him know he needs to fix some errors, Mr. professor of Tolkien studies. I'm sure the drones of sources will correct their misinformation soon enough thanks to you.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,999
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Well that is the other option, that the sentence is ambiguous and the meaning cannot be definitely determined. fine.

    Check this other quote:

    On page 298 of the "Of the Rings of Power" which was published together with the Silmarillion by Houghton Miffan 1998 edition,

    "In Eriador Imladris was the chief dwelling of the High Elves, but at the Grey Havens of Lindon there abode a remnant of the people of Gil-Galad the Elven king. At times they would wander into the lands of Eriador, but for the most part they dwelt by the shores of the sea, building and tending the elven ships wherein those of the Firstborn who grew weary of the world set sail into the uttermost West. Cirdan the Shipwright was lord of the Havens and mighty among the wise."

    Sirdan the shipwright was a Sindar elf who according to this passage is counted among the remnant of the people of Gil-Galad and therefore a High elf. Imladris is the cheif dwelling, but at the Grey Havens of Lindon there abode a remnant of the people of Gil-Galad. The But implies that some of the high elves do not live in Imladris, but live at the havens.
    The passage does NOT say that Cirdan is counted among the remnant of the people of Gil-Galad, nor does it say that only that remnant lives in Lindon.
    Some high elves may live at the Grey Havens, but non-High Elves also live there.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,824
    JRR makes only a few references to "High Elves" in LOTR (1966 2nd edition). For brevity I have snipped out the relevant passages and omitted parts that do not expand our knowledge in any way.

    Prologue
    There (referring to Rivendell), though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.

    Book One - Chapter III - Three is Company
    The song ended. "These are High Elves!..." said Frodo in amazement. "... Not many now remain in Middle-earth, east of the Great Sea."

    Gildor then identifies himself as "Gildor Inglorien of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles (capitalization by the author), and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea."

    Book Two - Chapter IV - A Journey in the Dark
    Beneath these again were two trees, each bearing crescent moons. .... "And there is the Tree of the High Elves!" said Legolas."And the Star of the House of Fëanor," said Gandalf.

    Book Two - Chapter VI - Lothlórien
    "It is said that there are still havens of the High Elves, but they are far north and west, beyond the land of the Halflings." (Haldir speaking)

    Book Six - Chapter IX - The Grey Havens
    "With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-earth..."

    The Noldor get a single mention.

    Book Three - Chapter XI - The Palantír
    "The palantíri came from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Fëanor himself, maybe, wrought them..." (Gandalf speaking)

    Silvan Elves make an appearance as a term for a specific group of Elves and are equated with the Wood-elves.

    In Appendix B - The Tale of Years, a little is said of the divisions of the Elves.
    "Then most of the Noldor returned into the Far West and dwelt in Eressëa within sight of Valinor; and many of the Sindar went over Sea also."

    "In the beginning of this age (The Second Age) many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr (c. SA 1000) many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, ... , was one of these."

    In Appendix F - The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age
    Of the Elves

    "The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien. .... Of the Eldarin tongues two are found in this book : the High-elven or Quenya, and the Grey-elven or Sindarin. The High-elven was an ancient tongue of Eldamar beyond the Sea, ... It was no longer a birth-tongue, but had become, as it were, an 'Elven-latin', still used for ceremony, and for high matters of lore and song, by the High Elves, who had returned in exile to Middle-earth at the end of the First Age."

    "The Grey-elven was in origin akin to Quenya; for it was the language of those Eldar who, coming to the shores of Middle-earth, had not passed over the Sea but had lingered on the coasts in the country of Beleriand."

    The Hobbit says little on this topic and what it does say appears more influenced by Tolkien's 'Book of Lost Tales' than to what became 'The Silmarillion'. In Chapter III - A Short Rest, Elrond says "They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars."

    Chapter VIII - Flies and Spiders
    "They (Wood-elves) differed from the High Elves of the West, ... For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, ... before some came back into the Wide World."

    -----
    This is basically all that we have to work with when staying within the material that we believe SSG has license to use. Much of what we argue and surmise comes from our knowledge and use of other writings by JRRT but SSG can't go there without risking lawsuits.

    In three different places above it is specifically said that High Elves went west over sea and returned (before eventually returning from Exile). It is also specially mentioned that the Sindar did not do this. They lingered on the western shores until after the breaking of Thangorodrim. We can surmise that Noldor are High Elves due to the statement about Fëanor being one and his symbol appearing on the West-gate of Moria. We don't know if there are any other groups considered High Elves but the statement in the Hobbit about Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves going west suggests more than one group. (We can probably safely assume that these groups became the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri in his latter writings. It's worth noting that the Vanyar and Teleri do not appear in LOTR so it's 'off-limits'.)


    I am well aware that not all may agree with me but, from all the above, my conclusion is that the Sindar, as described in LOTR, are not considered "High Elves".
    In fact, I believe Tolkien completely changed his mind on what constituted a "High Elf" even though he had already committed all the above statements to paper and published it. Would he have later revised LOTR and The Hobbit to be consistent with a 'completed' (by JRRT) Silmarillion? That is hard to say but I shall use my next post to show where I believe Tolkien was heading.

    Sorry for the wall of text.
    Peace.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    The passage does NOT say that Cirdan is counted among the remnant of the people of Gil-Galad, nor does it say that only that remnant lives in Lindon.
    Some high elves may live at the Grey Havens, but non-High Elves also live there.
    It doesn't say non-high elves live there.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,182
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    LOL I'm quoting Tolkien's original writing.
    Correction, you are misquoting and heavily misinterpreting Tolkien's original writing.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post
    JRR makes only a few references to "High Elves" in LOTR (1966 2nd edition). For brevity I have snipped out the relevant passages and omitted parts that do not expand our knowledge in any way.

    Prologue
    There (referring to Rivendell), though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.

    Book One - Chapter III - Three is Company
    The song ended. "These are High Elves!..." said Frodo in amazement. "... Not many now remain in Middle-earth, east of the Great Sea."

    Gildor then identifies himself as "Gildor Inglorien of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles (capitalization by the author), and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea."

    Book Two - Chapter IV - A Journey in the Dark
    Beneath these again were two trees, each bearing crescent moons. .... "And there is the Tree of the High Elves!" said Legolas."And the Star of the House of Fëanor," said Gandalf.

    Book Two - Chapter VI - Lothlórien
    "It is said that there are still havens of the High Elves, but they are far north and west, beyond the land of the Halflings." (Haldir speaking)

    Book Six - Chapter IX - The Grey Havens
    "With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-earth..."

    The Noldor get a single mention.

    Book Three - Chapter XI - The Palantír
    "The palantíri came from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Fëanor himself, maybe, wrought them..." (Gandalf speaking)

    Silvan Elves make an appearance as a term for a specific group of Elves and are equated with the Wood-elves.

    In Appendix B - The Tale of Years, a little is said of the divisions of the Elves.
    "Then most of the Noldor returned into the Far West and dwelt in Eressëa within sight of Valinor; and many of the Sindar went over Sea also."

    "In the beginning of this age (The Second Age) many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr (c. SA 1000) many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, ... , was one of these."

    In Appendix F - The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age
    Of the Elves

    "The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien. .... Of the Eldarin tongues two are found in this book : the High-elven or Quenya, and the Grey-elven or Sindarin. The High-elven was an ancient tongue of Eldamar beyond the Sea, ... It was no longer a birth-tongue, but had become, as it were, an 'Elven-latin', still used for ceremony, and for high matters of lore and song, by the High Elves, who had returned in exile to Middle-earth at the end of the First Age."

    "The Grey-elven was in origin akin to Quenya; for it was the language of those Eldar who, coming to the shores of Middle-earth, had not passed over the Sea but had lingered on the coasts in the country of Beleriand."

    The Hobbit says little on this topic and what it does say appears more influenced by Tolkien's 'Book of Lost Tales' than to what became 'The Silmarillion'. In Chapter III - A Short Rest, Elrond says "They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars."

    Chapter VIII - Flies and Spiders
    "They (Wood-elves) differed from the High Elves of the West, ... For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, ... before some came back into the Wide World."

    -----
    This is basically all that we have to work with when staying within the material that we believe SSG has license to use. Much of what we argue and surmise comes from our knowledge and use of other writings by JRRT but SSG can't go there without risking lawsuits.

    In three different places above it is specifically said that High Elves went west over sea and returned (before eventually returning from Exile). It is also specially mentioned that the Sindar did not do this. They lingered on the western shores until after the breaking of Thangorodrim. We can surmise that Noldor are High Elves due to the statement about Fëanor being one and his symbol appearing on the West-gate of Moria. We don't know if there are any other groups considered High Elves but the statement in the Hobbit about Light-elves, Deep-elves and Sea-elves going west suggests more than one group. (We can probably safely assume that these groups became the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri in his latter writings. It's worth noting that the Vanyar and Teleri do not appear in LOTR so it's 'off-limits'.)


    I am well aware that not all may agree with me but, from all the above, my conclusion is that the Sindar, as described in LOTR, are not considered "High Elves".
    In fact, I believe Tolkien completely changed his mind on what constituted a "High Elf" even though he had already committed all the above statements to paper and published it. Would he have later revised LOTR and The Hobbit to be consistent with a 'completed' (by JRRT) Silmarillion? That is hard to say but I shall use my next post to show where I believe Tolkien was heading.

    Sorry for the wall of text.
    Peace.
    I can't see single quote you posted that supports the notion that Sindar are not high elves.
    I have posted a number of things that specifically imply they are and I have meticulously explained what specific sentences mean.
    I guess the wall of text is not helpful if it isn't followed by some exposition of the facts they may contain other than to paraphrase.

    " I read these things and they mean to me Sindar are not High Elves"
    Last edited by TiberiasKirk; Apr 15 2018 at 05:57 PM.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,824
    Now, as I mentioned earlier, I believe Tolkien completely revised his ideas on High Elves, even though it would be at odds with material already written. I draw this conclusions not from reading "The Silmarillion" but from what was published in HOME Book 10 - Morgoth's Ring. CT dates these writings to around 1951-52. At this point LOTR was finished (although missing much of what became the maps and appendices) and was still unpublished by George Allen & Unwin. Tolkien offered LOTR to Collins in 1950, as he wanted The Silmarillion to also be published and A&U were unwilling to do so. Collins wanted large edits to LOTR before publishing it, Tolkien refused and went back to A&U resulting in Book One "Fellowship" being published in 1954. As we know, JRR never finished revising "The Silmarillion" in his lifetime.

    Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion
    Section 1 - The First Phase
    Chapter 3 - Of the Coming of the Elves

    S25 The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. ... The Lindar (altered to Vanyar) were his folk, fairest of the Quendi; they are the High Elves (changed in pencil to Fair Elves) ..."

    S26 Next came the Noldor, a name of wisdom. They are the Deep Elves.... Their lord was Finwë.

    S27 The greatest host came last, and they are named the Teleri, for they tarried on the road, and were not wholly of a mind to pass from the dusk to the light of Valinor. ... The Sea-elves therefore they became in Valinor, the Soloneldi (altered to Falmari), ... Two lords they had, for their numbers were very great; Elwë Singollo ... and Olwë his brother.

    S29 These are the chief peoples of the Eldalië, who passing at length into the uttermost West in the days of the Two Trees are called the Kalaquendi, the Elves of the Light.

    The text then goes on to define the Úmanyar (those who set out on the journey but never came to Aman), the Moriquendi (those who never beheld the light of the Trees, both Úmanyar and Avari) and the name of Sindar being taken by the host of Elwë, mightiest of all the Úmanyar.

    ---

    This suggests that the conception of the High Elf was changing. First to apply only to the Vanyar, and then to be axed altogether as the penciled change of High Elves to Fair Elves, as applied to describe the Vanyar, is taken up throughout the remainder of the text. Was this the final word?

    As happens quite often with Tolkien, the answer appears to be no, it returns at a later date. Along with the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" papers (also published in Morgoth's Ring) appears a Glossary. As part of the entry for Eldar, it says "The Elves who were in or who ever had dwelt in Aman were called the High-elves (Tareldar). CT believes this work belongs to around 1959. There is also a letter from 1958 (Letter # 212) in which the term High-elves reappears. In discussing the story of Míriel, mother of Fëanor, he says her fate had disastrous results, leading to the "Fall" of the High-elves.

    Again - this is all my opinion, but I believe Tolkien wanted to abandon the idea of High Elves as a term, instead calling them Kalaquendie or Elves of the Light. Because he did not get The Silmarillion published in the 1950's and published before LOTR, he later decided that major revisions to remove this term from LOTR and The Hobbit were not likely to happen. Therefore he returns to using the term High Elves, calls them Tareldar and defines it in the "Athrabeth" as another term for the same group of Eldar who make up the Kalaquendie. There could be many reasons for this but I think the name "High Elf" wasn't elegant enough for Tolkien compared to using terms like "Elves of the Light" "Elves of the Dark" "those not of Aman" and so on. "High" compared to what? Is there a "Low elf"? Even the temporary idea of the Vanyar being the "High" ones suggests the rest of the Eldar were somehow lesser beings, when his writing suggests that they had different talents, the Noldor to lore and crafting, the Falmari to singing. But it was too late to change so much published and unpublished material. Still, the best definition we have of a High Elf remains "the Elves who were in or who ever had dwelt in Aman". That definition comes from JRRT. Logically, it cannot include the Sindar as they never dwelt in Aman.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post

    As happens quite often with Tolkien, the answer appears to be no, it returns at a later date. Along with the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" papers (also published in Morgoth's Ring) appears a Glossary. As part of the entry for Eldar, it says "The Elves who were in or who ever had dwelt in Aman were called the High-elves (Tareldar). CT believes this work belongs to around 1959. There is also a letter from 1958 (Letter # 212) in which the term High-elves reappears. In discussing the story of Míriel, mother of Fëanor, he says her fate had disastrous results, leading to the "Fall" of the High-elves.
    His use of the term High-Elf certainly was not consistent at all and therefore leaves a lot of room for debate, but as far as I can determine from what you wrote all you have is a glossary entry in a work published after his death. This is the same entry that appears in the index of the Silmarillion. I can't find any evidence J.R.R. Tolkien wrote this. This could easily be Christopher Tolkien. (therefore explaining further the confusion about the term High-Elf, since we have definitions from two different authors.)

    I on the other hand have attempted to discuss two distinct passages that were certainly written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself.

    I believe there is what the evidence supports what High-Elf means from what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote(what I have presented)

    and what you want it to say. (what you have written)

    It is a phenomena in the world of ideas that an idea which is new or not conventional and even challenges the established order (perpetuated by Christopher Tolkien) encounters strong resistance because people would have to accept that the way they have thought about it for a long time might be wrong. I too for many years believed high-elves were only those who dwelt in Aman or at least visited it (like Thingol). This is because I just accepted what I was told in glossaries and indexes.

    Now that I have examined the actual texts I have changed my mind. SSG itself is responsible since they labeled Thranduil a High-Elf.

    When I went to the text to prove them wrong I was faced with the evidence I found that actually supports their decision.

    What I don't understand is the emotional reaction of many who read the evidence I have presented and refuse to discuss it, but fall back on entries from glossaries and indexes that can't even be attributed to the original author.
    Its met with arguements with no substance at all that simply say "No your wrong" but provide no analysis even to the point of denying laws of the English language or simple logic. Therefore my conclusion that the reaction is strictly an emotional one.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,182
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    What I don't understand is the emotional reaction of many who read the evidence I have presented and refuse to discuss it, but fall back on entries from glossaries and indexes that can't even be attributed to the original author.
    Its met with arguements with no substance at all that simply say "No your wrong" but provide no analysis even to the point of denying laws of the English language or simple logic. Therefore my conclusion that the reaction is strictly an emotional one.

    I haven't been reading emotional responses from people opposed to your ideas, I've read intelligent, well researched and well thought out, reasoned responses. They "fall back" on material compiled by the only living person who truly knew the mind of JJR Tolkien, his son Christopher.

    But there is one piece of material above all else which proves beyond all doubt that the Sindar are very definitely not High Elves, and it was posted by you:

    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    "Most of the Eldar after a great march reached the
    Western Shores and passed over Sea; these were the High Elves, who became immensely enhanced
    in powers and knowledge. But part of them in the event remained in the coast-lands of the North-
    west: these were the Sindar or Grey-elves."


    Any honest person with even the most rudimentary reading skills could only conclude from that statement by Tolkien that the Sindar never dwelt in Aman, and therefore can't be considered as High Elves.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,824
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    His use of the term High-Elf certainly was not consistent at all and therefore leaves a lot of room for debate, but as far as I can determine from what you wrote all you have is a glossary entry in a work published after his death. This is the same entry that appears in the index of the Silmarillion. I can't find any evidence J.R.R. Tolkien wrote this. This could easily be Christopher Tolkien. (therefore explaining further the confusion about the term High-Elf, since we have definitions from two different authors.)
    The evidence you seek can be found in HOME Book 10 - page 349 in my hardcover edition.
    I highly doubt CT is being dishonest about who wrote the words or where it was found.
    Have you ever read any of the HOME series?
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post
    The evidence you seek can be found in HOME Book 10 - page 349 in my hardcover edition.
    I highly doubt CT is being dishonest about who wrote the words or where it was found.
    Have you ever read any of the HOME series?
    I'm not accusing him of being dishonest in this case although the writings of glossaries and indexes are the places where editors contribute and not necessarily be written by the original authors. They are unarguably not part of the narrative.
    I don't own the HOME series but read it years ago and decided not to buy it. I will go check it out from the library again.

    I don't understand why you wouldn't do me the similar favor of examining the evidence I have found that supports the notion that Sindar are High Elves.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,182
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    I don't understand why you wouldn't do me the similar favor of examining the evidence I have found that supports the notion that Sindar are High Elves.
    I think by now everyone has read what you posted, most of us have read it several times, and while I can't speak for anyone else, I know that I couldn't believe what I was reading. You actually provided undeniable proof that the Sindar can, under no circumstances, be considered to be High Elves.

    So far you are the only person who can't see this blindingly obvious fact, which only makes your claims to being such a perceptive reader more ironically delicious

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,999
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    I'm not accusing him of being dishonest in this case although the writings of glossaries and indexes are the places where editors contribute and not necessarily be written by the original authors. They are unarguably not part of the narrative.
    I don't own the HOME series but read it years ago and decided not to buy it. I will go check it out from the library again.

    I don't understand why you wouldn't do me the similar favor of examining the evidence I have found that supports the notion that Sindar are High Elves.
    You haven't presented any evidence for that notion.
    The quote you started this thread with actually states the opposite - that Sindar are NOT High Elves.


    In LOTRO High Elf is basically used as a synonym for Noldor - understandable since they were the only High Elves in Middle-Earth at the time.

    Elsewhere High Elf seems to be used as a synonym for Calaquendi - but the status of elves born after the Trees were destroyed is never made clear. Are elves born in Aman after the destruction of the Trees considered Calaquendi or not? Technically they shouldn't be. Are they High Elves?
    What about the Noldor born in exile? Are they High Elves?


    My point is basically that "High Elf" is not really a well-defined term. But even so, none of the uses of the term in LOTR or Silmarillion would include the Sindarin as High Elves - with the possible exception of Thingol who, alone among the Sindar of the First Age, had been to Aman and seen the Light of the Trees.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,824
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    I'm not accusing him of being dishonest in this case although the writings of glossaries and indexes are the places where editors contribute and not necessarily be written by the original authors. They are unarguably not part of the narrative.
    I don't own the HOME series but read it years ago and decided not to buy it. I will go check it out from the library again.

    I don't understand why you wouldn't do me the similar favor of examining the evidence I have found that supports the notion that Sindar are High Elves.
    When an author creates his own glossary it cannot be considered irrelevant to the tale he or she wishes to tell or dismissed easily.

    I've read your posts and opinions on what you think it means. Now you, and anyone else reading this, have mine on the topic. I'll let others read and decide their own minds.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  17. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by tuor66 View Post
    When an author creates his own glossary it cannot be considered irrelevant to the tale he or she wishes to tell or dismissed easily.

    I've read your posts and opinions on what you think it means. Now you, and anyone else reading this, have mine on the topic. I'll let others read and decide their own minds.
    Since no one really wants to actually discuss SSG's decision to make Sindar Elves into High Elves then I don't plan on discussing it any more.

    I guess SSG's decision to define Thranduil as a High Elf will just have to stand on its own.

  18. #43
    High Elves are Calaquendi, the Elves of the light, the Elves who have seen the light of the Trees, who have been to Valinor. Thus Sindar are not High Elves. Thingol alone of the Sindar was counted among Calaquendi.
    Sindar are counted as Eldar, the Elves of the journey from Cuivienen. But not as Calaquendi.
    Case closed.

 

 
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload