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Thread: PVMP for all

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hetweith View Post
    if SSG did this? to be honest this scares me as much as SSG doing nothing!
    Consider the alternative. What we have has gotten worse over the years. If you think holding the hand of a half buried corpse progress then sure,do nothing.

    Once the gear is made the adjustments to creeps won't be near as hard. It could even be the same gear in the Moors already just restated.

    I think the real oppositions is this. "I want my pve effort to mean something." For some that may very well be pvp. That, if decidedly true for an individual is a personal goal post. It may have coincided once with the social dynamic but not anymore to the degree it once did. So, is opposition for a personal goal or for the larger encompassing good of the game? The sad part about having pve mean something is if it didn't already have personal meaning by obtaining it in a pve raid,It eludes to something more profound.

    I do mean free. Completely free. BTC free. No need to monetize it in any way. The benefits to SSG far outweigh trashing the idea by having it be bought in their store. Freeps have to sub to play, also all the other store bought items could still be used,obtained same as always including the store. To me this is a no brainer. Think how many players would return with a sub to come out that same day to pvp.

    Posted a million times before. Pvp is a side game. When has ever a side game been "The" reward for "The Game"? Seems backwards to me. It really looks to me that all those comments clarifying what Creeps in the Moors are in relation to the larger game are falling on its face as time progresses. All those excuses for why the game's pvp should remain static.

    It is time. Balance and better consistent action. PvP gear for the Moors and Moors only.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    That could still be true. Freeps can keep their advantage for all I care. I don't like waiting for weeks for them to have their advantage.



    Snowlock placed an order at Lowes



    You may not have known it. You're just the delivery guy who works at Lowes can't blame you. The delivery came on time and all the goods are accounted for,including the kitchen sink.
    Snowlock knew someone would bite on his post.

    His argument against pvp gear for the Moors only is weak and outdated. It is why he kept adding to it and distracting intentionally. To think he would desire to have the disparity only supports his reasons. Less and less endgame is the future, but yet he would have the endgame shiny's as the foundation of Freep pvp. That mean the disparity last longer as time passes. The gear grind is stupid and long. It does little to keep pve flourishing. There is no way that the pvp community is the pillar of pve raiding or provides the pve leadership. Outdated thinking that is. The idea how he expressed in another thread to wish for the game to exist in perpetuity to maintain the imbalance forever. Ofc this is from a freep.

    There was a time some years ago about a pvp subject where Snowlock claimed all servers were the same. I knew that was and is untrue. It looks like more and more upon reflection, his view is limited. Maybe intentionally idk. The fact is pvp is sad and the status quo hasn't changed it for the better,in fact made it worse. Snowlock himself maintains to get any change to do it on an individual basis point by point or SSG couldn't do it in a positive manner. Here is one subject and now interjected is essentially the whole game and all its shortcomings brought to bare. I won't grind pve for pvp. It just isn't worth it and many are now absent for that reason. Perhaps thousands who decided it wasn't worth the effort just to come out and play a slide show.




    Rob Ciccolini I am a Monster Player.

    There is a saying to speak with your wallet. In these games the individual wallet can have little effect in most cases. In August if it goes my way I'll be doing that,but not in a way expected. I'll start a thread at that time discussing my thoughts.


    Lowes deliver guy? Really? LOL.

    Thanks for not being mad about my post.

    I agree with Snowlock on the point that creeps need numbers to remain competitive. That isn't a statement of how it should be on his part I think but instead an observation about the current state of the game. That's the way I interpret it, but he can correct me if he wishes. I for one am willing to gear up to go to the moors. I don't even own the mordor expansion and I have gear that that maxes my physical and tactical mitigation, my BPE are capped, my moral pool is well over 100K and my DPS is as high as its going to get. The long part of the grind is the legendary items, which didn't bother me so much as I spent most of my time helping kinmates through lower level content, helping them level up so they can go to the moors too. I got the stuff I needed as a consequence of helping others so it didn't feel grindy at all.

    Now that I have it, I would kind of resent loosing it simply to even the playing field against people who didn't do the work I did, but that's just me.

    I wouldn't mind loosing my moors only bonuses as long as both sides loose the audacity bonus.
    Last edited by TiberiasKirk; Apr 04 2018 at 06:25 AM.

  3. #53
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    When Freeps come out on a regular basis it enables creeps to persist. When I speak of balance it isn't just about gear and builds it. It is much more. The way it normally goes when some servers don't sustain consistent action,a percentile of them end up reluctantly in transferring. Again balance is much more than gear. Many who do transfer find they made a mistake and then end up quitting. Dog piling on one server kills the action on other servers and then sets in motion a cycle where freeps that remain see no action and in turn creeps see less action and it keeps repeating until there is almost no pvp on a given server.

    Many changes over the years, I truly dislike. The store is one. Still, I understand its purpose and goal. For me it essentially undermines my efforts and supplants my desire to play. It is a sacrifice I unwillingly yield to. Why? Because its good to sustain game in general. I too would feel a bit sordid about having my gearing efforts diminished but again would yield to the larger picture of sustaining the game. It's time for players to accept changes that can promote PvMP.

    This question must be ask by every individual unto themselves.

    Does my individual desire outweigh the potential of yielding to a larger picture?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    When Freeps come out on a regular basis it enables creeps to persist. When I speak of balance it isn't just about gear and builds it. It is much more. The way it normally goes when some servers don't sustain consistent action,a percentile of them end up reluctantly in transferring. Again balance is much more than gear. Many who do transfer find they made a mistake and then end up quitting. Dog piling on one server kills the action on other servers and then sets in motion a cycle where freeps that remain see no action and in turn creeps see less action and it keeps repeating until there is almost no pvp on a given server.

    Many changes over the years, I truly dislike. The store is one. Still, I understand its purpose and goal. For me it essentially undermines my efforts and supplants my desire to play. It is a sacrifice I unwillingly yield to. Why? Because its good to sustain game in general. I too would feel a bit sordid about having my gearing efforts diminished but again would yield to the larger picture of sustaining the game. It's time for players to accept changes that can promote PvMP.

    This question must be ask by every individual unto themselves.

    Does my individual desire outweigh the potential of yielding to a larger picture?
    I certainly see your point in that players may need to make sacrifices to keep a game going that they like to play.

    The game I like to play is a role playing game. PvP is part of it but not the whole experience. When I go to the moors I don't join raids. I roll with my group. We grab a quest to take a keep and then plan our assault and carry it out. We may or may not meet creeps. Just the possibility of that happening makes it way more exciting than going on some scripted instance or going to wherever the "action" is on the map. Our experience is immersive, we stay in character through the mission.
    Sometimes we wipe and end up recovering back in rivendell assuming the soldiers of the coldfells pulled our half dead corpses out of the moors.
    Changing my character's gear for going to the moors would dilute the role play experience, the story would be altered in a way.
    I don't expect others to understand it, its a foreign idea to most.

    Most people going to the moors aren't there as part of a larger role play experience.
    They are there for different reasons. Some are there because gearing and then trying out their gear in a challenging environment is an important part of the game, the customization and how they build their toons is part of the fun.
    Asking this type of player to pay to go to the moors and then give up their gear is probably asking too much of them. I don't think you will retain this kind of player.

    Some are there just for PvP pure and simple. These would most likely be willing to go for a standard set of moors gear I would imagine, not being one of them.

    If saving PvP makes it a game that I'm no longer interested in playing, then its not worth saving to me. I'll find another game or something else to do with my toon.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    I certainly see your point in that players may need to make sacrifices to keep a game going that they like to play.


    I don't expect others to understand it, its a foreign idea to most.
    Actually I do understand it. Cosmetics aren't shown in the moors. That means what you have equipped to pve is only shown. Is it coincidence your newly equipped gear from the last content release is what you choose to take out there? I don't think so. I say for this reason. Many SOA items are far better suited for RP imo especially for the Moors. Not only do they look better but are also titled and described in a way that suits RP better than lets say Doomfold or Abyss gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    They are there for different reasons. Some are there because gearing and then trying out their gear in a challenging environment is an important part of the game, the customization and how they build their toons is part of the fun.
    Asking this type of player to pay to go to the moors and then give up their gear is probably asking too much of them. I don't think you will retain this kind of player.
    That is odd reading. Wouldn't a player who wants a challenge propose a spar with another Freep who is somewhat on the same level in gear and stats? The challenge is only a remote thought when most Freeps go to the Moors. It is as much a shiny rank as much as anything else. Lets be real about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Some are there just for PvP pure and simple. These would most likely be willing to go for a standard set of moors gear I would imagine, not being one of them.

    If saving PvP makes it a game that I'm no longer interested in playing, then its not worth saving to me. I'll find another game or something else to do with my toon.
    This is understandable,However PvMP takes two sides. I would correct you on the use of the word "Standard". Sounds generic. Perhaps "Standardized" is more suitable. One big issue is pve players are all too willing to complain at any idea that they perceive makes them less. You know,children act like that until they understand the realities. It is really humorous to me because all too often many players want to throw out in a conversation about how educated they are above others.

    Which brings me back to this. "Does my individual desire outweigh the potential of yielding to a larger picture?"
    It should, if a player has conviction, which allows for an encompassing tolerance, to have a thing exist with a moderate amount of enjoyment. I'm not sure you are the proper delegate to elucidate the functional normality's of PvMP beyond the aesthetic nature of a less than part time occurrence. No offense intended but if your only interest is looking good then I can imagine the horror you'd endure when a Heartseeker bleed is bugged out on you.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    Actually I do understand it. Cosmetics aren't shown in the moors. That means what you have equipped to pve is only shown. Is it coincidence your newly equipped gear from the last content release is what you choose to take out there? I don't think so. I say for this reason. Many SOA items are far better suited for RP imo especially for the Moors. Not only do they look better but are also titled and described in a way that suits RP better than lets say Doomfold or Abyss gear.
    Well just the look of things is not what role play is all about for me.
    For example I could hardly drop my pocket item if it were crafted by my beloved.
    If my helm was gifted to me by Thranduil for long and faithful service I would be loath to exchange it for another.
    If my ring was won as reward for valor during the defense of Minas Tirith, I would not surrender it willingly and so on and so forth.
    My stuff may not be pretty but every piece has significance in my character's story.



    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    That is odd reading. Wouldn't a player who wants a challenge propose a spar with another Freep who is somewhat on the same level in gear and stats? The challenge is only a remote thought when most Freeps go to the Moors. It is as much a shiny rank as much as anything else. Lets be real about it.
    Well I would on this admit I was trying to guess at other people's motivation. I should just admit you are right on this particular point as you probably understand the average player better than I.



    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    Which brings me back to this. "Does my individual desire outweigh the potential of yielding to a larger picture?"
    It should, if a player has conviction, which allows for an encompassing tolerance, to have a thing exist with a moderate amount of enjoyment. I'm not sure you are the proper delegate to elucidate the functional normality's of PvMP beyond the aesthetic nature of a less than part time occurrence. No offense intended but if your only interest is looking good then I can imagine the horror you'd endure when a Heartseeker bleed is bugged out on you.


    Well you are certainly entitled to determine for yourself whether I am the right player to listen to about PVP. All I can say is that for my own reasons for playing, standardized gear would detract significantly from my roleplay experience and would cause me to not spend money on the moors anymore. Still you are probably right, I do not represent the majority. I can say that I have enjoyed our interchange and would be delighted to meet a player such as yourself on the field of battle.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    Consider the alternative. What we have has gotten worse over the years. If you think holding the hand of a half buried corpse progress then sure,do nothing.

    Once the gear is made the adjustments to creeps won't be near as hard. It could even be the same gear in the Moors already just restated.

    I think the real oppositions is this. "I want my pve effort to mean something." For some that may very well be pvp. That, if decidedly true for an individual is a personal goal post. It may have coincided once with the social dynamic but not anymore to the degree it once did. So, is opposition for a personal goal or for the larger encompassing good of the game? The sad part about having pve mean something is if it didn't already have personal meaning by obtaining it in a pve raid,It eludes to something more profound.

    I do mean free. Completely free. BTC free. No need to monetize it in any way. The benefits to SSG far outweigh trashing the idea by having it be bought in their store. Freeps have to sub to play, also all the other store bought items could still be used,obtained same as always including the store. To me this is a no brainer. Think how many players would return with a sub to come out that same day to pvp.

    Posted a million times before. Pvp is a side game. When has ever a side game been "The" reward for "The Game"? Seems backwards to me. It really looks to me that all those comments clarifying what Creeps in the Moors are in relation to the larger game are falling on its face as time progresses. All those excuses for why the game's pvp should remain static.

    It is time. Balance and better consistent action. PvP gear for the Moors and Moors only.
    i am considering the alternative. the "adjustments" have put this game where it is...
    just a reminder... anything playable, doable, and actionable, may be considered an exploit and the ban-hammer may be authorized at any and all moments.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    You play with some terrible healers then. Creeps have usually basically 0-10% mitigations when fighting vs freep group, with tens of % of incoming damage on them. Are forced to take way bigger hits compared to their morale pool than freeps. Freep healers are a lot sturdier. Its totally common to hit 60-90k hits to creep healers. Or even one shot full mitigated 200k warleader on burglar with oathbreakers on it.
    Show me. Show me the 100k healing minstrel as well. Not even saying you're lying, just asking to see it in action. I want to see someone one shot a fully mitigated 200k WL, lets say R13+. Full Audacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hetweith View Post
    if SSG did this? to be honest this scares me as much as SSG doing nothing! the history of dev's in this game is turning a simple lane change into a 65mph run thru a lawn, house, and into a tree.

    as much as PvMP needs to be touched by the dev's...it's also the last thing...
    Agreed. Creeps want us to believe that on the one hand they badger SSG about how terrible they are at dev'ing this game, but on the other hand, beg them for help. I look at SSG like the government, when it comes to PVP. The more they are involved, the worse it gets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    I too would feel a bit sordid about having my gearing efforts diminished but again would yield to the larger picture of sustaining the game. It's time for players to accept changes that can promote PvMP.
    But it didn't. We had this. HOw many times do I have to say it. We had exactly what you are asking for. Look back to forum messages for 2012. Link me the threads proclaiming to on high, "all ye freeps look down and despair, balance has been achieved!"

    And then when you find all those posts and can state through evidence eternal that what you propose works, explain how we got to where we are now?
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  9. #59
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    What you had was sets of pvp gear that was being used outside of the Moors. No where was that suggested to continue in this thread.

    Huh? You haven't seen a 100k healing Minstrel? I've seen them go as high as 130k. Is it expected that a healing class such as a War Leader always has to trait full mitigations to survive when a Light armored healing class can cap all their mits and remain a full blue (with extras from yellow and red) healer? I can see a top geared Hunter taking out a WL in a few seconds regardless of how the WL is traited. You do realize that when ever a new trait point becomes available it skews the balance even more? Lets not even mention how the Minstrel BC is brokenly being used,all the while Defiler and War Leader heals are mostly inductions still. You want to put out examples? Every example you can offer,I bet I can put two out there to counter it relating to Freep and Creeps. I nearly seen it all and it amazes me how freeps even consider pvp a challenge while wearing top end game gear.

    I've been killed, fully mitted on My BA With Oathies on me by a Burg in the span of 2 seconds.


    Of course you want the SSG "government" to stay out of it. Hunters are sitting in a good place atm.

    I'm not buying the same old. Lol You want me to provide proof of how it did or didn't work in the past? Really? We all know that's a set up question.

    At no point in "all" my posting's did I suggest a specific freep class be nerfed. Maybe generalized opinions but not specific. The one time I did make a proposal for the BA to have its VT dps increased the freeps came out and said WHOA NO! The comment in that post about the flaming arrow was pure troll. Freeps would have quit in droves. However today it might be viable.
    I saw the cycle and knew that one change would have enabled some sense of balance. One simple change. Instead we got stagnation for two years all the while freep dps and healing went out of control. In the end what did we get which no one ask for? The dps spider.

    Don't take what I say as a Freep nerf. I said I don't care if Freeps keep their advantage. Only that it be with Moors pvp gear only for the Moors and to keep pve gear out of the Moors. Freeps would still have their Imbued LI's and Jewelry. You can keep avoiding the easier path with which balance could occur having PVP gear in place, compared to the pace of content released gear and the time lag that kills consistent action,all you want.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    What you had was sets of pvp gear that was being used outside of the Moors. No where was that suggested to continue in this thread.
    Nope, not going there. That is a pve impact. And that doesn't belong in a pvp forum. I asked the question, answer it if you can.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    Nope, not going there. That is a pve impact. And that doesn't belong in a pvp forum. I asked the question, answer it if you can.
    Nope, not going there. Your question is a bait trap can only lead to a boxed in product which you want me to give as the answer. That was years ago and no longer applies to today.

    You are the one that is in opposition to this not I. You have yet to say exactly why you oppose it for your own personal reasons. That is the crux of your argument but reluctantly you won't own it.
    I have done just that. I said why I would like the change and openly admit why for my own reasons and the larger purpose. I have very little to gain except for the reasons I stated.

    Somewhere the word disingenuous will surface again. The question is for whom that bell tolls.



    Don't be scared. There is hardly anything left to lose.

    On a final note. I do believe nothing will change but let it be known I wasn't the arbiter of fear.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post



    But it didn't. We had this. HOw many times do I have to say it. We had exactly what you are asking for. Look back to forum messages for 2012. Link me the threads proclaiming to on high, "all ye freeps look down and despair, balance has been achieved!"

    And then when you find all those posts and can state through evidence eternal that what you propose works, explain how we got to where we are now?
    I remember that armor, I still have pieces of it in my vault. At the time it was awesome and having it both in and out of the moors worked for me. When I left and came back obviously it was no good anymore, but did it solve the balance problems? nope not at all.
    What I don't get is why having pvp gear designed for pvp but usable outside the moors is a problem for creeps? I don't remember creeps complaining about it back then. I remember freeps who didn't pvp being jealous of the gear since they couldn't get it.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian.S View Post
    Nope, not going there. Your question is a bait trap can only lead to a boxed in product which you want me to give as the answer.
    Or in other words, there's only one conclusion to draw when you take the "logic" of this proposed armor to its conclusion.

    You are the one that is in opposition to this not I. You have yet to say exactly why you oppose it
    I have too. I oppose it because it didn't work the last time. It's a gate to lapsed players returning. And it makes it hard on kins to get their pvp'ers to pve. I've said this multiple times in this thread and others. It's time for me to leave this discussion, and others. The more things change the more things stay the same.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    Show me. Show me the 100k healing minstrel as well. Not even saying you're lying, just asking to see it in action. I want to see someone one shot a fully mitigated 200k WL, lets say R13+. Full Audacity.
    You must be trolling me, right? Even without any kind of buff Minstrel can be over 100k morale in PvE. Add to this hope morale buff, rank bonus, captain, etc. And you can be up to 140k morale but that will drop to about 120k with maxed mitigations, 50% crit D and some incoming healing, but even 120k build is possible without captain lol.

    Burg can one shot 200k WL when conditions are met I laid up. Considering absurd freep buffs you can have that kind of buffing/debuffing permanently on the target.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    You must be trolling me, right? Even without any kind of buff Minstrel can be over 100k morale in PvE. Add to this hope morale buff, rank bonus, captain, etc. And you can be up to 140k morale but that will drop to about 120k with maxed mitigations, 50% crit D and some incoming healing, but even 120k build is possible without captain lol.

    Burg can one shot 200k WL when conditions are met I laid up. Considering absurd freep buffs you can have that kind of buffing/debuffing permanently on the target.
    So, you're not going to show me?

    #notsurprised. Well anyway, bye.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    So, you're not going to show me?

    #notsurprised. Well anyway, bye.
    I don't know why you trying to fight me when this is clear as daylight. here is my almost full DPS solo build. Solo, with just hope and anthem of war:




    Or I can drop 7 mastery essences and replace them with 619-740 vitality essences... Which is over 20k increase to morale... Every proper youtube vid of post mordor PvP has minstrels with over 100k morale...

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    I don't know why you trying to fight me when this is clear as daylight. here is my almost full DPS solo build.
    So, not a healer.

    I'll keep waiting.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    So, not a healer.

    I'll keep waiting.
    What it's if not a healer? I can heal with that build. But I can also slot more morale if I feel like it.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    What it's if not a healer? I can heal with that build. But I can also slot more morale if I feel like it.
    It looks like a dps mini to me. I don't doubt you can get some heals off, but heal a raid with that? Maybe not, who knows

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    It looks like a dps mini to me. I don't doubt you can get some heals off, but heal a raid with that? Maybe not, who knows
    yes, you don't need 191k mastery to heal a raid, you can get around 120k morale with hope token (if not more, depends on rank), if you actually decided to go for healing build.
    champion,RK,warg,defiler,rvr.
    RIP lotro pvp.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    It looks like a dps mini to me. I don't doubt you can get some heals off, but heal a raid with that? Maybe not, who knows
    And why I wouldnt? because low morale? Indeed.

  22. #72
    This conversation just keeps getting dumber and dumber.

 

 
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