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  1. #1
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    Support for 32 bit apps in 10.14

    So, from http://appleinsider.com/articles/18/...rs-for-testing

    "Apple's High Sierra 10.13.4 beta process started with the company providing warnings to users when they ran 32-bit applications in macOS. Apple has told consumers that High Sierra will be the final version of macOS to include support for 32-bit apps "without compromise," gently urging users to upgrade to 64-bit app versions soon."

    Do any of us know what level of compromise this is likely to entail with respect to LotRO? Has anyone tried the terminal command to force LotRO to run in a 64 bit only environment?

    Or is it going to be a case of waiting until 10.14 betas goes live and we can check? Worst case scenario I suppose is that we have to stay with 10.13 until we get a 64bit LotTRO mac client...
    Aure Entuluva!

  2. #2
    I came here to check to see if SSG had made any kind of announcement about this. On the plus side we'll still have the option of wine or bootcamp for the moment to get it running. However beyond this there is the issue of Apple's rumored move in 2020 to arm chips, which would also require a large recompile.

  3. #3
    The 64-bit transition for macOS and macOS apps is still underway, so final transition dates have not yet been established. But now is a good time to check with the software developer to see if 64-bit versions of your favorite titles are available.

    When is SSG plan to upgrade their game software to operate in a 64bit environment for Mac?

    Thanks

    Bristlehawk
    4/25/2018

  4. #4
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    I just popped in to ask the very same question. I hope that they give us a response as this is a pretty big deal for Mac players.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by DWalla View Post
    I just popped in to ask the very same question. I hope that they give us a response as this is a pretty big deal for Mac players.
    Following this. Hopefully we hear back soon!

  6. #6
    Straight to the point: Any idea when the Developer's will (if they do) upgrade LOTRO to 64bit as rumored??? I heard Mac is going 64bit in Aug or Sept this year.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleigha View Post
    Straight to the point: Any idea when the Developer's will (if they do) upgrade LOTRO to 64bit as rumored??? I heard Mac is going 64bit in Aug or Sept this year.
    During the Anniversary Twitch Stream Sev announced that they had hired an engineer and that work was progressing.

    The problem is still what it has always been -- the Physics engine and another major piece of code is third-party from XP days.
    Those vendors apparently do have updated 64-bit versions, but those updated versions change many things in game-play, and therefore simple swaping in the new modules would dramatically alter the play-style of the game. The changes were incremental over the past 10 years, but LOTRO would not have the luxury of slowly altering things if they swap in.

    I got the impression that SSG has read the handwriting on the wall of both Microsoft and Apple about 32-bit support in "degraded fashion" going forward, and are finally acknowledging what several of us have been saying all along. . . none of the problems that players complain about can be cured until a 64-bit client is available.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    During the Anniversary Twitch Stream Sev announced that they had hired an engineer and that work was progressing.

    The problem is still what it has always been -- the Physics engine and another major piece of code is third-party from XP days.
    Those vendors apparently do have updated 64-bit versions, but those updated versions change many things in game-play, and therefore simple swaping in the new modules would dramatically alter the play-style of the game. The changes were incremental over the past 10 years, but LOTRO would not have the luxury of slowly altering things if they swap in.

    I got the impression that SSG has read the handwriting on the wall of both Microsoft and Apple about 32-bit support in "degraded fashion" going forward, and are finally acknowledging what several of us have been saying all along. . . none of the problems that players complain about can be cured until a 64-bit client is available.
    Did Lotro ever get a new physics engine about 5 years or so ago? DDO did, it wasn't smooth but it did happen and it looks like they'll be able to get a 64 bit app if apple pulls the trigger. If LOTRO uses an older physics engine though, that might make it much harder for SSG. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6092223

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Did Lotro ever get a new physics engine about 5 years or so ago? DDO did, it wasn't smooth but it did happen and it looks like they'll be able to get a 64 bit app if apple pulls the trigger. If LOTRO uses an older physics engine though, that might make it much harder for SSG. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6092223
    My understanding is - No.

    There are some significant differences between DDO and LOTRO. Not the least of which is the size of the player base.
    I have been told that the two used a different starting point, i.e. different engines, even though they both grew from Acheron's Call.

    I don't know for certain, but I think that DDO was a "cleaner" creation than LOTRO; that LOTRO had many, many more modifications made to that original AC engine , very early in the pre-beta time period. DDO had been running live for over a year at that point. And the general way in which DDO works is very different -- everything is an "instance" in DDO. I don't know if DDO has "Land Blocks" the way LOTRO has.

    I suspect that the experience with upgrading DDO scared off the upgrade to LOTRO. . . DDO has always had a much smaller (and less vocal) player base than LOTRO.
    To the best of my knowledge, DDO never had the Codemaster issue -- i.e. European and other players that LOTRO had.
    The Codemaster's version of LOTRO is NOT the same game as the Turbine version. That is the reason you cannot transfer characters from the old Codemaster servers (EU) to the Turbine (NA) -- the databases driving each version is completely different.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Did Lotro ever get a new physics engine about 5 years or so ago? DDO did, it wasn't smooth but it did happen and it looks like they'll be able to get a 64 bit app if apple pulls the trigger. If LOTRO uses an older physics engine though, that might make it much harder for SSG. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6092223
    In that thread Sev posted:
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    On the Mac side the client is already 64 bit; we *will* need to update the launcher and the patch DLLs though.

    Sev~
    Hmm... I play LOTRO mostly, but was an original DDO player and my account is still active.

    So I fired up my DDO account for the first time in a year, and after patching, I don't see a 64-bit client.
    So, I don't know if Sev is blowing smoke, simply repeating what others have told him or if referring to a 64-bit client "in the back room" but not available to the players.

    The Current DDO Client is most definately NOT 64-bit, at least according to Apple: Activity Monitor > Memory, "kind" column.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    In that thread Sev posted:


    Hmm... I play LOTRO mostly, but was an original DDO player and my account is still active.

    So I fired up my DDO account for the first time in a year, and after patching, I don't see a 64-bit client.
    So, I don't know if Sev is blowing smoke, simply repeating what others have told him or if referring to a 64-bit client "in the back room" but not available to the players.

    The Current DDO Client is most definately NOT 64-bit, at least according to Apple: Activity Monitor > Memory, "kind" column.
    Here's my guess on what he meant, as dll's are a windows thing: I think it was that the client is 64 bit, in theory, but being held back by 32bit dll's that are embedded in and translated. Most likely in the form of DirectX to OpenGL conversion. I know that FF14 used a process like that which is why it's Mac client requires slightly higher specs than it's windows client.

    I hope that makes sense, I may not be explaining my thoughts in the most technically correct way.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Here's my guess on what he meant, as dll's are a windows thing: I think it was that the client is 64 bit, in theory, but being held back by 32bit dll's that are embedded in and translated. Most likely in the form of DirectX to OpenGL conversion. I know that FF14 used a process like that which is why it's Mac client requires slightly higher specs than it's windows client.

    I hope that makes sense, I may not be explaining my thoughts in the most technically correct way.
    Yes. Makes sense to me.
    Being a Unix type, I hadn't remembered the actual meaning of "DLL" - I forgot that DLL means Dynamic-Linked-Library, we just called them "Shared Libraries"!

    That being the case, that has always been the conversion problem -- the third-party modules, the imbeded libraries in the games.

    This was simply the first time I had heard the "problem" described that way.

    Which is another way of saying, nothing has changed.

    Turbine's code was trivially re-compiled at 64-bits, but the third-party Physics Engine (and/or whatever other modules) is still a 32-bit problem.

    Comments in the past have indicated that because the (whichever) third-party modules used in the game are so old, the newer 64-bit versions of those libraries change game-play, apparently noticibly and significantly. (Had the newer versions of third-party modules been incorporated as they were released over the past 11 years, the changes would have been incremental, and not abrupt.)

    If it is correct that DDO did get a new physics engine 5 years ago, then they have a leg-up on LOTRO for the 64-bit conversion.
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  13. #13
    For those of us that don't understand computers ....does all of this mean that they are in fact working on getting it switched? I asked SSG on Facebook the other day and they saw it but still haven't commented on it...

    Thanks!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyAruiniel View Post
    For those of us that don't understand computers ....does all of this mean that they are in fact working on getting it switched? I asked SSG on Facebook the other day and they saw it but still haven't commented on it...
    SSG is a business which one assumes intends to remain a viable, on-going business into the future.

    All that can be said is -- we do not know anything more than what Severin has said in various posts and comments.
    All we can do is accept those posts and comments at face value.
    Unless and until something is made available for testing by the player community, all we can do is guess and hope.

    Conceptually, there are those of us who have computing backgrounds who know what is involved and "probably" happening based on our own personal experiences.
    But what is actually happening "behind closed doors" is unknown. We have no knowledge of budgets or other planning priorities within SSG.
    All we can do is speculate.
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  15. #15
    Things keep getting more interesting. Not only are 32-bit apps deprecated in 10.14, but so is OpenGL. https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Formengil View Post
    Things keep getting more interesting. Not only are 32-bit apps deprecated in 10.14, but so is OpenGL. https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/
    For the non-programmers who didn't click the link, here is what Apple means by 'deprecated': (from the link)

    "When a deprecation occurs, it’s not an immediate end of life for the specified API. Instead, it is the beginning of a grace period for transitioning from that API and to newer and more modern replacements. Deprecated APIs typically remain present and usable in the system for a reasonable time past the release in which they were deprecated."

    Deprecated doesn't mean LotRO won't run in 10.14, it just means that the clock is ticking.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyAruiniel View Post
    For those of us that don't understand computers ....does all of this mean that they are in fact working on getting it switched? I asked SSG on Facebook the other day and they saw it but still haven't commented on it...

    Thanks!
    Did you get any response?

    As I haven't been in the game for some months, I only really got to know today, and followed through by checking the Apple link here:

    https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208436

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mallomys View Post
    Did you get any response?

    As I haven't been in the game for some months, I only really got to know today, and followed through by checking the Apple link here:

    https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208436
    still no response on this from SSG? be nice if a Blue at least acknowledged the IMPENDING DOOOOOOM?

  19. #19
    We have another year before the 32-bitpocalypse hits, but it would be nice if they fixed the problem well before the last minute.

  20. #20
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    Just ignore this post.
    I'm trying to find out if my forum subscription (with daily email-notification) is not working and I have to bug Cordavan or if I simply did not wait long enough for a resent question.
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