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  1. #1
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    Burglar Class Ideas / improvements

    Yes it is true, everywhere you hear that Burglar is not a good choice if you want to do melee or buff / debuff.

    But I like Burglar class for what it is is. The RP element is easily understood across all MMO out there.

    In LOTRO burglar just simply under powered and it does feel that it can easily become overpowered obviously. But if at any given time one were to consult "O" key social panel in the fellowship tab, there is seldom any Burglar class players logged in ever. -People are willing to put up with the difficulties of the class but in the end there are just too few of us.

    Now there is an idea that Burglar must sit in the corner and cast debuffs during any fight where there are other DPS classes present because all other classes that do DPS do more?!?!
    -That is simply outrageous. Burglars, kings of single target attack must be nearly THE kings of damage. It just goes with the class image!

    How to improve the situation?

    for damage reduce cooldowns in half and allow burglar to enter into stealth after every killshot. -Which does not need to be a oneshot. Just as soon as your enemy is dispatched, you should be able to enter stealth. And that would perfectly support ability to produce more damage if one is traited to damage boost on attacks out of stealth.

    Reducing cooldown on touch and go as well as crucially hide in plain sight are a must as well, really. It should not be a once in a blue moon gift but the bread and butter tht keeps one alive.

    All of the above can be summed up in: Please reduce cooldowns for the important attacks and self buffs for the Burglar class, so that we could actually use the abilities that we have.

    Best regards
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  2. #2
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    Burglar is pretty much must have in current meta and 2x of them leads to best results. They are 3rd best DPS class (by really big margin to 4th one), that buffs everyones DPS, and even in yellow line they do better damage than most of classes do in their DPS lines. Burglar always been one of least played classes, no matter of expansion.


    No, we do not need lower cooldowns on harming skills, and especially do not need stealth after every kill.


    Even in landscape burglar is one of strongest ones ever since Mordor now that you can't faceroll through 10 mobs.

  3. #3
    As a main burgler since lv 75 i can say:
    We dont Need Shorter cooldowns.
    Burglers are in a very very good spot.
    For some specific situations(pvmp) we should rather have longer cooldowns.
    Ready and able on a 5min cd is totally wrong and way to strong.Back to 30min would be a good way.

    The reason that burglers are not the most played class is quite simple:The class got a huge skill range,to be efficient you need to Play it quite well.At least for pve,sadly ist quite easymode to oneshot everything in pvmp and normal landescape.

    If you want to change something then rather nerv the burgler class,remove cdg,make the cd of ready and able higher.
    I want my lv 85/75 burgler back instead of what we got since 95+.....

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Burglar is pretty much must have in current meta and 2x of them leads to best results. They are 3rd best DPS class (by really big margin to 4th one), that buffs everyones DPS, and even in yellow line they do better damage than most of classes do in their DPS lines. Burglar always been one of least played classes, no matter of expansion.


    No, we do not need lower cooldowns on harming skills, and especially do not need stealth after every kill.


    Even in landscape burglar is one of strongest ones ever since Mordor now that you can't faceroll through 10 mobs.
    Thank you for your reply. I apreciate the fact that you took your time to write something even though you clearly do not agree with my points.

    I will take my time then to disagree with your points as well.

    Top 3 DPS classes, you neglected to mention them clearly are Hunter, RK and Champion. Hunter is the only one that can be compared to burglar because it is single target. RK and champ and massive AoE that is just crazy compared to what burglar would need to do to down that number of NPCes.
    Ministrels and Lore Masters both also have AoE and in case of Minstrel it is heals that makes it stand out.

    So, you argument that is in top utmost gear (Mordor) Burglar is good in Mordor at 115? Even though all but one of it's (say red line) attacks are designed to be executed either from the back or from the shadows and on hex of the target. Which starts the combat and thus disables sneak and with improved HIPS is on 4 min cool down it is really a means of escape at this point not aid in the fight.

    Only in threads on Burglars we can have people that say that they play a burglar come in and disagree with any improvement, asking for a nerf. Is it some sort of size envy? Like you always stuck in the mindset that the other guy is better then you?

    We clearly do not need a nerf and increasing our damage would not be fair, however making our abilities be useful more often would make the class stronger. Clearly as of now not too many people play it, lore that comes with it is just not everything. It's like "hop on a champ and get it dome already, x10 times over" (oh my champ is not even geared haha)
    Last edited by Kaxmaxmillion; Mar 13 2018 at 09:59 PM.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    As a main burgler since lv 75 i can say:
    We dont Need Shorter cooldowns.
    Burglers are in a very very good spot.
    For some specific situations(pvmp) we should rather have longer cooldowns.
    Ready and able on a 5min cd is totally wrong and way to strong.Back to 30min would be a good way.
    BTW it is not burglers it is Burglars. I seldom correct people's typos or mistakes because i am very bad myself. But you keep on writing it in this funny way. And it is the point of the post Burglar. not burgler.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    The reason that burglers are not the most played class is quite simple:The class got a huge skill range,to be efficient you need to Play it quite well.At least for pve,sadly ist quite easymode to oneshot everything in pvmp and normal landescape.
    I have read it all over the web, this is often very commonly used idea in regards to the class. I disagree. I believe that the class is borderline broken.
    Going by your logic wardens should not be played at all because they are infinitely more complex to run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    If you want to change something then rather nerv the burgler class,remove cdg,make the cd of ready and able higher.
    I want my lv 85/75 burgler back instead of what we got since 95+.....
    Please do not come to the post and contribute something in a clearly just negative way. It is not a poll, but anyone can say what they like, so clearly you do not agree, but asking for a nerf ??

    My point is: Burglar class has abilities. - I want to use them a lot more often and in many more situations then just initial burst.

    We have LONGEST cooldowns of all classes on many very important abilities. in fact all of our cooldowns are too long. Coupled with on hex / no ranged(i am fine with that / don't want ranged) and single target attack. We are borderline broken.

    I have nothing to say when people say they want to relive / replay their earlier experiences in the game. Some one was very clearly expressing in world chat how they remember original Shadows of Angmar and how grat it was, the other day. -I respect that, it is not where we are now at all.

    Burglar class needs to move with the times. Cooldowns of anything at 4 min is a joke. It is the same as why people do not use FM anymore, it has become a waste of time because the setup is too slow.

    A compromize would be to reduce cooldowns with gains in exp levels.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  6. #6
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    Burglars are not in a bad place.
    I guess it depends on what you think a Burglar is.
    A Burglar is not a warrior.
    A Burglar is not a tank.
    A Burglar is (in their current conflagration) a solo player. A sneak. A backstabber.
    I have played a Burglar since day-1 and I have always enjoyed it.
    I really enjoyed my romp thru Mordor and am enjoying the latest update.
    Plan your moves and move thru the landscape. Sneak and you shall succeed.
    Playing a Burglar takes patience, skill and bold moves.
    If you want to group, you can be helpful, but you will not be the most powerful or most deadly.

    Play a Burg as a sneaky, backstabbing loner and you will enjoy it.
    If you want to lead a group through some raid content then play something else.
    ...................... missed a putt...............At a Dead & Co. show on a Mexican beach
    .................
    The real Boraxxe... wearing his "Get off my lawn!" face and his "I smoked my lawn" face.
    If it's not dangerous, it's not fun!
    Golfing Hobby yes....Golfing Hobby yes

  7. #7
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    THanks to the answer above.

    I have only played burglars / thieves rogue classes in last 2o years online. It is what i enjoy.

    I have no problem with the lore.

    I am in the same time a little surprised at others telling me out of the blue what burglar is and what burglar is not. Does it not relate 100% to your perception of things and who ultimately wins the fight? Also, this has no relationship to the post I made.

    I really have no issues running Burglar.

    Looking at how game is and what others are doing with other classes. I feel that our cooldowns are too slow. I know other classes Hunter, Minstrel and Champion. our fastest attack and the only one in the red line is on 3 sec cooldown, all others are 5 and are a crit chain activated at that.

    My request is to half all cooldown timers for Burglars, on all of our abilities.

    We are slow.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    BTW it is not burglers it is Burglars.
    A Rouge by any other name is still red. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milii View Post
    A Rouge by any other name is still red. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
    At least you know what you are talking about ~
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    Thank you for your reply. I apreciate the fact that you took your time to write something even though you clearly do not agree with my points.

    I will take my time then to disagree with your points as well.

    Top 3 DPS classes, you neglected to mention them clearly are Hunter, RK and Champion. Hunter is the only one that can be compared to burglar because it is single target. RK and champ and massive AoE that is just crazy compared to what burglar would need to do to down that number of NPCes.
    Ministrels and Lore Masters both also have AoE and in case of Minstrel it is heals that makes it stand out.

    So, you argument that is in top utmost gear (Mordor) Burglar is good in Mordor at 115? Even though all but one of it's (say red line) attacks are designed to be executed either from the back or from the shadows and on hex of the target. Which starts the combat and thus disables sneak and with improved HIPS is on 4 min cool down it is really a means of escape at this point not aid in the fight.

    Only in threads on Burglars we can have people that say that they play a burglar come in and disagree with any improvement, asking for a nerf. Is it some sort of size envy? Like you always stuck in the mindset that the other guy is better then you?

    We clearly do not need a nerf and increasing our damage would not be fair, however making our abilities be useful more often would make the class stronger. Clearly as of now not too many people play it, lore that comes with it is just not everything. It's like "hop on a champ and get it dome already, x10 times over" (oh my champ is not even geared haha)
    Aoe damage is largely irrelevant in the endgame atm, so when comparing dps you should use ST dps. Hunter and rk are top, but burg with raid set isn't far behind with champ a good bit behind burg. Also, HIPS is a shorter CD than 4 minutes when considering the use of R&A.

    I think most people who main burg are scared that a buff to burg would make them way too overpowered considering they are already one of the strongest classes already when well played (even when not well played in
    moors).

    I think any further cooldown reduction would be a terrible idea for burglars considering the strength of its CDs and the amount of CDs it has. However, I do think your idea of stealthing after any kb is interesting for moors, although it would need to work like CDG stealth so that you couldn't use it to escape very easily but could use it to get the stealth bonus on the next attack.
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    As a main burgler since lv 75 i can say:
    We dont Need Shorter cooldowns.
    Burglers are in a very very good spot.
    For some specific situations(pvmp) we should rather have longer cooldowns.
    Ready and able on a 5min cd is totally wrong and way to strong.Back to 30min would be a good way.

    The reason that burglers are not the most played class is quite simple:The class got a huge skill range,to be efficient you need to Play it quite well.At least for pve,sadly ist quite easymode to oneshot everything in pvmp and normal landescape.

    If you want to change something then rather nerv the burgler class,remove cdg,make the cd of ready and able higher.
    I want my lv 85/75 burgler back instead of what we got since 95+.....
    I'm just replying to the bold part. I recently, U22 recently, started playing creepside. I already ranted on this but I wanna comment on this.
    If you want to see how powerful a burg is, make a new creep (rank2 or lower) and go out the entrance at grams and walk past the campfire where the one shotters are and climb the rock in front of you. Chat with the boys on /ooc for a bit and (after the newness of U22 is gone) see how fast you get trashed. Note how long the fight was. Note your combat log. come back here and post what combat move the burg used on you. I'm pretty sure you'll find the only thing you KNOW for sure is that the burg HiPS'd. Right now, on Ark, the creeps are lonely. Or not, I haven't been on in a couple of days. You might not even know how much the burg hit you for. Might.

    But ok, shorten the cd on HiPS. Burgs can lay out two noobs in the moors at one time.

    MY personal suggestion is make HiPS like DF in the moors. Not usable in combat. /shrug
    ...
    Sig looked hideous so I sent it to its room. It can come back and
    show off after it has thought about what it did.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    THanks to the answer above.

    I have only played burglars / thieves rogue classes in last 2o years online. It is what i enjoy.

    I have no problem with the lore.

    I am in the same time a little surprised at others telling me out of the blue what burglar is and what burglar is not. Does it not relate 100% to your perception of things and who ultimately wins the fight? Also, this has no relationship to the post I made.

    I really have no issues running Burglar.

    Looking at how game is and what others are doing with other classes. I feel that our cooldowns are too slow. I know other classes Hunter, Minstrel and Champion. our fastest attack and the only one in the red line is on 3 sec cooldown, all others are 5 and are a crit chain activated at that.

    My request is to half all cooldown timers for Burglars, on all of our abilities.

    We are slow.
    Its because you think burglar is something they are not. You also complain about burg cooldowns. Well minstrel has skills with 5 and 12.5 mins, hunter with 5 and 30 minutes. And so what if cd on skills is 5s? That is extremely low. Some classes have 15-30s on their only big hitting skills. Some classes even minute+ long cooldowns. Burglar has one of fastest rotations and lowest set of cooldowns on rotational skills skills.

    No we arent too slow, maybe you are but we definitely arent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xhiu View Post
    I'm just replying to the bold part. I recently, U22 recently, started playing creepside. I already ranted on this but I wanna comment on this.
    If you want to see how powerful a burg is, make a new creep (rank2 or lower) and go out the entrance at grams and walk past the campfire where the one shotters are and climb the rock in front of you. Chat with the boys on /ooc for a bit and (after the newness of U22 is gone) see how fast you get trashed. Note how long the fight was. Note your combat log. come back here and post what combat move the burg used on you. I'm pretty sure you'll find the only thing you KNOW for sure is that the burg HiPS'd. Right now, on Ark, the creeps are lonely. Or not, I haven't been on in a couple of days. You might not even know how much the burg hit you for. Might.

    But ok, shorten the cd on HiPS. Burgs can lay out two noobs in the moors at one time.

    MY personal suggestion is make HiPS like DF in the moors. Not usable in combat. /shrug
    Its good to know basics with the class first. They do not use hips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    Burglars are not in a bad place.
    I guess it depends on what you think a Burglar is.
    A Burglar is not a warrior.
    A Burglar is not a tank.
    A Burglar is (in their current conflagration) a solo player. A sneak. A backstabber.
    I have played a Burglar since day-1 and I have always enjoyed it.
    I really enjoyed my romp thru Mordor and am enjoying the latest update.
    Plan your moves and move thru the landscape. Sneak and you shall succeed.
    Playing a Burglar takes patience, skill and bold moves.
    If you want to group, you can be helpful, but you will not be the most powerful or most deadly.

    Play a Burg as a sneaky, backstabbing loner and you will enjoy it.
    If you want to lead a group through some raid content then play something else.
    The class is cc/debuffer like it always been. Class is extremely powerful for role its designed to. If you try play it as pure dps its not as effective but still superior to any other class with similar function. Why should you play something else if you want to "lead a group through some raid content"?
    Last edited by siipperi; Mar 14 2018 at 07:25 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post


    ...

    Its good to know basics with the class first. They do not use hips.
    ...
    Then educate me.
    What skill is it that allows them to kill with no report in the combat log and disappear before the Felarrows can see them? I've seen freeps stand right behind the rock and get killed so I know they are in range.
    ...
    Sig looked hideous so I sent it to its room. It can come back and
    show off after it has thought about what it did.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dselden View Post
    Aoe damage is largely irrelevant in the endgame atm, so when comparing dps you should use ST dps. Hunter and rk are top, but burg with raid set isn't far behind with champ a good bit behind burg. Also, HIPS is a shorter CD than 4 minutes when considering the use of R&A.

    I think most people who main burg are scared that a buff to burg would make them way too overpowered considering they are already one of the strongest classes already when well played (even when not well played in
    moors).

    I think any further cooldown reduction would be a terrible idea for burglars considering the strength of its CDs and the amount of CDs it has. However, I do think your idea of stealthing after any kb is interesting for moors, although it would need to work like CDG stealth so that you couldn't use it to escape very easily but could use it to get the stealth bonus on the next attack.
    So you say above:

    Aoe damage is largely irrelevant in the endgame atm

    -Makes no sense. Because, Sure it does. Everything played on level is your own end game. Burg does not have AoE so it just deals that much less damage, even if we wanted to, we just can't.

    Back to you:

    Hunter and rk are top, but burg with raid set isn't far behind with champ a good bit behind burg.

    -So, we are "go forth......, fifth, sixth" and yet people are afraid? Afraid of what?
    Then there is this: The moors and people that play Burg as a main?
    -All you have to do is consult the "O" for social screen and in the top tab with the list of people available for fellowship, there make a note of how many are logged in on one class or the other. Most days Wardens beat up in the ratio of 3 to 1 and their numbers are seldom above 3 in Bree town.....
    Must be that all the burglars are anon and are hiding. Or maybe not, maybe there are too few around at all?

    Let me give you an example of cooldown i feel is fair.

    AIM when it is traited to be available asap (3 points in that)

    The duration of AIM is 10 sec, and if you use up 3 trait points it's cooldown is 20 sec. -I don't remember what AIM cooldown is without the boost but I remember that with 2 points in there the cooldown is at 40 sec. - Moral of the story: You level up, you earn points, you trait them the way you like = you receive the benefits. (I can live with cooldown of 20 sec) And can only add as a joke at this point that whoever it was that invented cooldowns is a terrible tease! They could have invented something like no "Auto Loot All" for all classes that are not burglar. hehehe

    But his bit here is especially good:
    ts because you think burglar is something they are not.
    -Why, just why people want to control what I think? Who said that it is the only way forward for the Burg to matter as a minor buff / bebuff class? Am I controlling / guessing what you think? I hope not. Let's go here:

    You also complain about burg cooldowns.

    -Sure, yes I do. My main idea is a request here to reduce them. All other ideas are not that important.

    Well minstrel has skills with 5 and 12.5 mins, hunter with 5 and 30 minutes.

    I know ballads are not big damage attacks but they are 1 sec cooldown. And in all fairness at this point, honestly everyone should say that minstrel, that save your day healer, must only heal and never attack, because that's what they are, a healer! How do they level up? Oh, let others do all the attacking. If we are gimps #3 or #4, why not give us 1 sec cooldown on subtle stab or something then? -Sorry i degress, I forget all the time that according to most people we must sit in the corner and wait for the corruption removal to go off cooldown.

    So, compared to the above Burglar in red trait line has only 1 attack on 3 sec cooldown all others are 5 sec.

    Well minstrel has skills with 5 and 12.5 mins, hunter with 5 and 30 minutes.

    -Hunter has a way to fire PS Penetrating Shot for the amount of focus they have, i am not sure is it possible to discharge 3, it is for sure possible to do 2. -One after the other. And it is a very powerful attack. On my level 105 hunter I can down anything by doing PS/barrage/blood arrow and deal huge damage (ranged) and heal up in the same time, all the while moving around? Now, no one said that the world is a fair place. Or that everyone should play an Elf Hunter (because nearly everyone already does). But honestly this thread is not about other classes, at all.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xhiu View Post
    Then educate me.
    What skill is it that allows them to kill with no report in the combat log and disappear before the Felarrows can see them? I've seen freeps stand right behind the rock and get killed so I know they are in range.
    I would like to appologize to you on behalf of the burglars, it is the best I can do.

    There is no need to know any thing like basics of how electricity flows through you TV set in order to watch the CNN on the screen.

    With that out of the way, HIPS is one of the available options not to use it if in need of restealth while in combat is silly. But fear not, use once and you are done because guess what the next cooldown will last well into the next LOTRO day. Way past the sunrise.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  16. #16
    Let's just throw incoming crit chance on counter defence and call it a day.

    Maybe something something clever retort if there is time left.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    The class is cc/debuffer like it always been. Class is extremely powerful for role its designed to. If you try play it as pure dps its not as effective but still superior to any other class with similar function. Why should you play something else if you want to "lead a group through some raid content"?
    Not to get the whole thing out of context the above is a bit of candy you give to kids during haloween when you are out of good candy: Here is a handful of stuff no one in my house will have.

    But to be more exact it is about this bit of writing:

    riginally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    Burglars are not in a bad place.
    I guess it depends on what you think a Burglar is.
    A Burglar is not a warrior.
    A Burglar is not a tank.
    A Burglar is (in their current conflagration) a solo player. A sneak. A backstabber.
    I have played a Burglar since day-1 and I have always enjoyed it.
    I really enjoyed my romp thru Mordor and am enjoying the latest update.
    Plan your moves and move thru the landscape. Sneak and you shall succeed.
    Playing a Burglar takes patience, skill and bold moves.
    If you want to group, you can be helpful, but you will not be the most powerful or most deadly.

    Play a Burg as a sneaky, backstabbing loner and you will enjoy it.
    If you want to lead a group through some raid content then play something else.
    No one said anything that Burglars leading / not leading the raid content. I don't know what this is all about, where that reference comes from. But now there is a reply to the reply. So, just to make sure, I don't know what you two are talking about.

    That power that you two are talking about is in your respective minds. Because if it was so powerfull everyone would check in as a burglar at the time clock. Yet persistent ranged DPS that can kite and kill powerful NPCes or groups of them is what most everyone comes to be here as.

    I have played my 1st burglar type character in one of the 1st MMO that ever was, I started there in 1998, so on and so forth. It is not the lack or too much of perspective on philosophy of life that I worry about. And while I do not look like Boraxxe, I am not 15 years old if you have not guessed yet.

    Let me give you another bit about why I play burglar type so persistently for so many years whenever I am in MMO side of things.

    Burglars pick their fights - almost never the other way around. And I really like that.

    So inability to effectively hide while in combat bothers me here. Then building on that, several abilities do build on attack "out of stealth" idea that does not seem to be an idea that is possible to reuse all that well.

    Now I did not say we should be able to hide 100% at any moment that we like. I just said reduce cooldowns by half because 4 min cooldown on HIPS is too long and that is the improved version at that.

    To sum it all up, We are not talking here because I am not enjoying the class, rather we are talking here because I am. And also I am willing to post my thoughts for everyone to read. So thank you for reading and writing.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  18. #18
    If you would understand all abilities of your class you would realize how op the burg is.
    I am playing this class for 7 years,1 year playtime and i did all type of content.
    Burglars are usefull, they are strong and they dont need any buff at all.
    Neither we need shorter cooldowns,for what even?if you played burg before lv 95 you would know that current cooldowns are ridicilous short and way to strong.

    I am against the idea of making burglar the next 1,2,3 class to to everything at once.

    In pvmp we are the strongest of all 16 classes.
    In every raid we need at least 1 burg,2 are most usefull to maximize dps.
    Even in 3/6man instances where burglars usually dont shine we have amazing single target dps.
    High st dps doesnt come from stealth attacks but from stacking bleeds 3-5 times on 1 target.


    I dont really see your points.
    You just say i want shorter cooldowns because thats what i want.
    Without any logic or any reasons who make sense....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    If you would understand all abilities of your class you would realize how op the burg is.
    I am playing this class for 7 years,1 year playtime and i did all type of content.
    Burglars are usefull, they are strong and they dont need any buff at all.
    Neither we need shorter cooldowns,for what even?if you played burg before lv 95 you would know that current cooldowns are ridicilous short and way to strong.

    I am against the idea of making burglar the next 1,2,3 class to to everything at once.

    In pvmp we are the strongest of all 16 classes.
    In every raid we need at least 1 burg,2 are most usefull to maximize dps.
    Even in 3/6man instances where burglars usually dont shine we have amazing single target dps.
    High st dps doesnt come from stealth attacks but from stacking bleeds 3-5 times on 1 target.


    I dont really see your points.
    You just say i want shorter cooldowns because thats what i want.
    Without any logic or any reasons who make sense....
    It's fine, my logic is mine alone, you know?
    You do not see it? It is also fine.

    This is what makes this whole situation good, many people with different points of view.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  20. #20
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    Bear with me as I break down my various disagreements. Try not to take it too personally, as this is honest and realistic feedback from someone who's played a burglar for the past 5 years, and has seen some of the evolutions of the class over that time (both good and bad).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    In LOTRO burglar just simply under powered and it does feel that it can easily become overpowered obviously. But if at any given time one were to consult "O" key social panel in the fellowship tab, there is seldom any Burglar class players logged in ever. -People are willing to put up with the difficulties of the class but in the end there are just too few of us.
    Pause right there. "Underpowered"? Are you serious? Maybe level the class more? Burglar is not underpowered at all.

    Most burgs who are capped are likewise either moors players or raiders, and generally speaking, will have /anon on. For whatever reason, this is the norm. There are lots of burgs if you take the time to look around. Social panel is a horrible testing method, because it only shows at most 30 entries at once, and only in the single area you are currently. Very inaccurate surveying of burglar numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    Now there is an idea that Burglar must sit in the corner and cast debuffs during any fight where there are other DPS classes present because all other classes that do DPS do more?!?!
    -That is simply outrageous. Burglars, kings of single target attack must be nearly THE kings of damage. It just goes with the class image!
    "All the other classes that do dps do more"? Really? Geared 115 burgs can do 20k cunning attack bleeds, for 34s. I dont think we need a boost for Red Line in particular. At all. Hunter is broken in blue line, due to barrage not tiering down (although thats another issue altogether). See below for further clarification about damage.

    Burglars don't have to stand to the side. Theres no rule that says you do. Burglars are equally valued for their versatility and debuffs as well as straight DPS, which is a great thing in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    for damage reduce cooldowns in half and allow burglar to enter into stealth after every killshot. -Which does not need to be a oneshot. Just as soon as your enemy is dispatched, you should be able to enter stealth. And that would perfectly support ability to produce more damage if one is traited to damage boost on attacks out of stealth.
    Stealth has 4s cooldown. It resets itself over the course of the fight and doesn't take much to just use the skill after you kill something. Not a fan of constant stealth. Feint Attack gives from stealth bonuses, just CC your target and adjust positional accordingly. DPS problems rectified.

    I don't get what your gripe about "out of stealth" attacks is. Burgs being stealth only would be extremely limiting. Out of stealth is what makes burgs viable in groups.

    Fighting mobs requires patience on a burg. If you can't take 10s to decide which mob you'll riddle / provoke mez, and which you'll reveal weakness on simultaneously, then perhaps you should try a different class more related to AoE and less forethought (i.e. a champ or RK). Choosing when and from where to attack is what makes a burglar a burglar, and differentiates it from the other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    Reducing cooldown on touch and go as well as crucially hide in plain sight are a must as well, really. It should not be a once in a blue moon gift but the bread and butter tht keeps one alive.
    Definitely NO. Touch and Go is a survival skill, and most certainly should not be "bread and butter". I'm not sure what level your burg is but if you are struggling with survivability, my suggestion is to try the Gambler line for a change. You get heals on every evade...

    HIPS does not deserve shorter cooldown either. It's also a survival skill. It already cures every debuff when traited in red line, which is more than any other class can say. Cooldown is fine as is. You also have Ready and Able on 5 minutes cooldown. Use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    That power that you two are talking about is in your respective minds. Because if it was so powerfull everyone would check in as a burglar at the time clock. Yet persistent ranged DPS that can kite and kill powerful NPCes or groups of them is what most everyone comes to be here as.
    "Everyone would check in as a burglar" --> if that were the case, that'd be an indication that burglars are broken, because everyone would roll one. See above about social panel as a bad method for gauging class player base.

    The class isn't for everybody due to its unique playstyle. And, many folks have other characters they play in addition to burglars, so they aren't constantly on them... Burglars have plenty of damage as is, try leveling one to cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    Yet persistent ranged DPS that can kite and kill powerful NPCes or groups of them is what most everyone comes to be here as.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    -Hunter has a way to fire PS Penetrating Shot for the amount of focus they have, i am not sure is it possible to discharge 3, it is for sure possible to do 2. -One after the other. And it is a very powerful attack. On my level 105 hunter I can down anything by doing PS/barrage/blood arrow and deal huge damage (ranged) and heal up in the same time, all the while moving around? Now, no one said that the world is a fair place. Or that everyone should play an Elf Hunter (because nearly everyone already does).
    The reason you see a lot of ranged classes is because fire damage is severely broken at the moment, so these classes do much more dps at a time, depending on gear of course. Blue line hunter is ESPECIALLY broken, mechanic-wise, with Barrage not tiering down as intended, and pen shot having no cooldown altogether. Horrible, horrible comparison. If you want faceroll landscape, 2 button spam for gameplay? Play a blue line hunter. If you want actual strategy and a skill rotation? Play a burglar. Play both if you want, I don't care. But wanting to turn burglars into melee equivalents of mindless, barrage/PS-spamming hunters is a no-no. Would hate to see burglars be in the same sorry state as that class.

    I'll break it down for ya:
    Burglars are not meant to be an AoE class.
    Burglars are not meant to kite or be a ranged class.
    Burglars ARE meant to Crowd Control or debuff / buff outgoing / incoming damage, as in Reveal Weakness, Dust, Enrage, Counter Defence etc.
    Burglars ARE meant to provide single target dps, buffing their own damage or debuffing opponents by also utilizing the same CC mechanics listed above.

    TL;DR: the desire to make burglars akin to AoE or Ranged kiting classes is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    All of the above can be summed up in: Please reduce cooldowns for the important attacks and self buffs for the Burglar class, so that we could actually use the abilities that we have.
    See my above explanations

    ~Throllo
    Last edited by fmac81; Mar 14 2018 at 08:02 PM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    ...
    Now I did not say we should be able to hide 100% at any moment that we like. I just said reduce cooldowns by half because 4 min cooldown on HIPS is too long and that is the improved version at that.
    This...

    you have never played in the moors, right?

    I do keep going back to that don't I. The reason is that when something is adjusted on freep side it doesn't get fixed on creep side for at least a year. You, (as a burg) will hit me once at that rock, kill me outright, then hips before the npc that is there to keep freeps from mobbing the npc and creeps at the entrance to grams. You want to do that again to another noob in 2 minutes. I knew the skill. Thanks for the heads-up on the CD.

    I'm the player studying my combat log (to little purpose usually) to see how I can improve what I'm doing when in pvp. I see nothing in the combat log when I get killed like that. I'm planning on making an alias that goes like this
    ;br /ooc burg on me @ ;loc
    This will only work while I'm stunned as after I'm stunned I'm dead and you are gone. At least this way the others have a slim shot of seeing where you are. Slim.

    You, personally, might be happy with a 2 min cd on hips in pve. Your fellowship might be happy with that. But this affects the other side of the game. I see only 2 solutions.
    1. You keep your 4 min cd
    2. You get the 2 min cd and lose the ability to hips in the moors.

    Which do you think burgs are going to want?

    edit: Thanks Throllo. I don't know the burg as well as you do. But anytime hips seems like a crutch and likely to get burgs nerfed in a way they don't want. I kinda thought the OP wasn't level capped, as well
    Last edited by Xhiu; Mar 14 2018 at 08:07 PM.
    ...
    Sig looked hideous so I sent it to its room. It can come back and
    show off after it has thought about what it did.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    It's fine, my logic is mine alone, you know?
    You do not see it? It is also fine.

    This is what makes this whole situation good, many people with different points of view.
    And burg community doesn't agree with your views. Burglar is way more than just simple stupid DPS class. They have one of the most diverse rotations and basically never you run out of skills to use in PvE. We don't care one bit if you have played 20 years rogue type classes. We have burglar and we like it unique, we do not need another copycat class from other games. If you don't like it but want different gameplay. Reroll. It's simple as that really.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xhiu View Post
    This...

    edit: Thanks Throllo. I don't know the burg as well as you do. But anytime hips seems like a crutch and likely to get burgs nerfed in a way they don't want. I kinda thought the OP wasn't level capped, as well
    No problem . Beats me as to why they were (are?) obsessed about HIPS's cooldown... Every other class aside from minstrel / LM doesn't get total resets like that. And HIPS is a much better skill for having that cooldown than none at all. Strategy in gameplay, like I said.

    The skill that is causing you anguish in the moors is "Coupe de Grace", which is actually 3 attacks in one skill. It doesn't show in combat log since it has a special "enter stealth" mechanic attached to it if you land a killing blow. Thus, you'll at most see a "___ scored a critical hit with ___ Attack for xxxxx damage" in the combat log, if they don't open with CDG to begin with. Lately I've seen a lot of "Double-edged Strike" and "Gamblers Advantage" for starting skills in the combat log of my warg, because of the crit chain legacy.

    CDG is a skill mechanic issue that SSG probably isn't going to fix anytime soon, same with Hunter's Barrage staying at tier 3 instead of reverting to tier 1. Not enough staff + not enough resources + older game... unfortunately.

    ~Throllo
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  24. #24
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    Throllo,

    Ironic, <--- that's the big word while commenting in regards to your long reply. It has quite a few misreadings and even more assumptions.

    And to the other person that drew the line telling me that now based on this open, honest "say what you feel" conversation in these forums I need to reroll or what not.

    -I know I have started this thread. I know I posted what I think. I know I carefully read all the contributions. And I know that never in my mind I thought of telling anyone of you where to go and what to do.

    This thread could have spared any of this if it was intended as a sort of discussion or a disagreement, but making it personal more and more when I reply to your contributions, well, that's not completely mature - no matter the age you have leveled to in RL.

    This argument is just out of this world ^%$%$# <--- something censored, "You play your burg wrong" or "you want your burg to be something it is not". Remember, I did not have to post nothing here, all of this is more imagined then visual, we are entitled to freedom of though, trust me on the last one.

    It is really weird that discussions on a class become philosophical personal attacks. We have to be mature enough to just agree to disagree, especially if with all the years of experience we still fail at CALMLY reading a post in the forums on our favorite class. This is the forum where pinned posts are 5+ years old.

    You should be happy some one is talking here and it is not
    "what craft burglar should do" or
    "what race my burglar should be" or
    "i am returning player and made a valar burglar and have endless questions"

    FYI,

    Game, any game has dynamics, these dynamics are driven by prevalent classes and abilities at their speed so if all the hunters are broken, guess what that means whole game is broken. And it is not what I would say. My take on this is along these lines "it is what it is, currently"

    My burg is 115, I have played in the moors, but very little.
    My hunter is 105, it was my 1st character here that I stuck with because I love crafting and he was / is my original explorer.
    I also have a champ that is at 110 that I made with AoV that came with purchase of Mordor.
    I have 4 other characters past level 40

    I only really play burg and gear him. It is embarrassing how much stronger my not geared champ and hunter are then my Burg. And it could totally be my inability to grasp all the fine points of how to sit in the corner and pretending that i am a melee class or what not.

    ============================== ===============
    To correct some misgivings that arise from your reading of my post:

    1. I do not want any ranged attacks on burg - I have played that elsewhere, it is boring.
    2. I do not feel AoE is appropriate when it comes to attacks on a burg.

    -I believe I said that in my posts, not the opposite as you imply.

    What I feel, I would like more of. Please disagree with me and demand that I "reroll" (BTW, there is no real reroll in LOTRO, only really delete)

    Hide (not touch and go) should be that proverbial bread and butter of the burglar class.
    I feel that I would like / should be able to hide more often. Thus HIPS on 4 min cooldown is not my favorite.

    Why?

    Game is very fast, with very powerful classes and characters at the top driving it to become even faster.

    Burglars as a class, changes to burglar class and the whole thing somehow has a lot of fear and envy of others / unknown.

    I personally do not see a reason to change the class, but adjust and as I said I like playing it, with different strategies at that too. (I will admit that I have not played yellow line really)
    But as it is normal to compete and the very emotional thread where people are coming in asking to nerf burglar class because it is #4 damage wise, this thread is a proof of it.

    To compete better, I think it is a good idea to shorten the cooldowns as Burglar goes up in levels, so that these master burglars that have spent their whole leveling experience planning every step (AND LEVELED TO THE TOP) of a slow walk could take a breather and run around a bit.

    Thank you.

    PS.
    Do not make it personal.
    I am a nice guy, it will just roll of my back and you will regret the negativity you gave rise to about all these imaginary "characters".
    Last edited by Kaxmaxmillion; Mar 14 2018 at 09:25 PM.
    If others and big folks know too much about you, well you have to hide better. Because burglars do not exist, really.
    https://shirehobbits.wordpress.com - Den of Thieves, working the Farms of the Shire.

  25. #25
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    Firstly, I apologize if you felt my prior post was overly-condescending, this was not the intended point of my post. Maybe I did misinterpret what you were trying to convey, here or there (see below), but that was a response based on my initial reaction to how you wrote your suggestions. It is my feedback, doesn't mean you have to like it or accept it; just as your ideas don't always have to be liked or accepted, so long as they are given due consideration and respect (which I tried to do).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    Throllo,
    Ironic, <--- that's the big word while commenting in regards to your long reply. It has quite a few misreadings and even more assumptions.
    Game, any game has dynamics, these dynamics are driven by prevalent classes and abilities at their speed so if all the hunters are broken, guess what that means whole game is broken"
    There are indeed a lot of mechanics that cause issues which will continue to go unaddressed in LotRO. Fixes are unlikely, as are any major class modifications. Yes, hunters who over-utilize Barrage at tier 3 indicates that the class is broken, in my opinion. Alas, "it is what it is", as you said. We move forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    This thread could have spared any of this if it was intended as a sort of discussion or a disagreement, but making it personal more and more when I reply to your contributions, well, that's not completely mature - no matter the age you have leveled to in RL.

    This argument is just out of this world ^%$%$# <--- something censored, "You play your burg wrong" or "you want your burg to be something it is not". Remember, I did not have to post nothing here, all of this is more imagined then visual, we are entitled to freedom of though, trust me on the last one.

    It is really weird that discussions on a class become philosophical personal attacks. We have to be mature enough to just agree to disagree, especially if with all the years of experience we still fail at CALMLY reading a post in the forums on our favorite class. This is the forum where pinned posts are 5+ years old.
    I never questioned your freedom of thought. It was feedback, plain and simple. Perhaps too critical at times (I address that below), but certainly nothing requiring this sort of overreaction to. I don't think you ever replied to me until this post, so not sure what that is all about. I think you are mish-mashing other earlier responses with mine.

    Some of your ideas seemed out of the blue to me. That being said, you dont have to consider my feedback if you dont want to. Maybe look a little closer and see that I was trying to get a sense of where you were at with your burglar.

    Philosophical personal attacks? Really? It was a few critiques, some of which I had a strong opinions related to tangent topics. It seems as though you're insisting on there having been insults in my post where there weren't any. My post was not barring you from "freedom of thought" or had any mention of that... Again, it could just be a mix-up of a response that you thought was mine, I didn't see it as insulting your philosophy or person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    especially if with all the years of experience we still fail at CALMLY reading a post in the forums on our favorite class.
    Have you ever seen these forums as calm? Take a look at the PvMP forums, and let me know. Those threads are toxic. I thought my post was rather harmless, all things considered. Any time someone suggests gameplay changes like this, you're going to get opinions, irregardless of whether you want them. I shared mine, doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    My burg is 115, I have played in the moors, but very little.
    My hunter is 105, it was my 1st character here that I stuck with because I love crafting and he was / is my original explorer.
    I also have a champ that is at 110 that I made with AoV that came with purchase of Mordor.
    I have 4 other characters past level 40
    Thank you for clarifying. This is helpful for someone who is trying to contribute their feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    I only really play burg and gear him. It is embarrassing how much stronger my not geared champ and hunter are then my Burg. And it could totally be my inability to grasp all the fine points of how to sit in the corner and pretending that i am a melee class or what not.

    ============================== ===============
    To correct some misgivings that arise from your reading of my post:

    1. I do not want any ranged attacks on burg - I have played that elsewhere, it is boring.
    2. I do not feel AoE is appropriate when it comes to attacks on a burg.

    -I believe I said that in my posts, not the opposite as you imply.
    Thank you for clarifying. Sometimes intentions get lost in long posts (my own included).
    I think that part of the misunderstanding between us, is that you might be approaching burglar as a purely DPS class, perhaps, trying to treat it like other rogues you have played from different games? I don't know. I will say that LotRO's burglar is a lot of simultaneous CC to set up your DPS. If you dont have positional, for instance, that's at least a 25% difference in damage right there (even more if you have the legacy). These are caveats that are so embedded in skill descriptions, it's easy to miss them. With champion, you just stroll into an enemy camp and shing-a-ling away. Same goes for hunter... Pew! pew! .

    I was not implying that you wanted ranged attacks, rather, I was critiquing (I'll admit, somewhat excessively) the fact you compared in several other posts that you couldn't kill things as quickly as your champ. This implied, to me, that you want to kill as-fast-as an AoE class does, or burglars don't have a melee skill like Pen Shot with no cooldown, doing a lot of damage. I've already given my opinion on hunter, so I'll spare that spiel. Leastways, thats how I read it.

    Some of my strong opinions about the current state of hunters found their way into my post, so I am sorry if you felt they were "philosophical attacks" against you (to be clear: they weren't) . The Burglar class "is what it is".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    What I feel, I would like more of. Please disagree with me and demand that I "reroll" (BTW, there is no real reroll in LOTRO, only really delete)
    I never said to reroll. That's a blantant distortion of my response. It's fine that you desire more of one mechanic or another. My response was given from my perspective about why I did or did not agree with your ideas. Other forum members might have given a negative vibe in their respective posts, but my response was not one of those. Again, sorry if you felt insulted — that was not at all my intention. Half of my post was trying to understand why you wanted the ideas you listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    Hide (not touch and go) should be that proverbial bread and butter of the burglar class.
    I feel that I would like / should be able to hide more often. Thus HIPS on 4 min cooldown is not my favorite.
    Why?
    Game is very fast, with very powerful classes and characters at the top driving it to become even faster.
    Burglars as a class, changes to burglar class and the whole thing somehow has a lot of fear and envy of others / unknown.
    It appears I misread the touch and go part, my bad.
    HIPS has its roots as a survival skill, not as an offensive one. It's just how the skill works.

    **** EDIT: I'm assuming you like Coupe de Grace? Not that this is a bad thing, it can be useful in my opinion, for sure. As in, the auto-stealth mechanic after using it? Having reread what you wrote, I think that's the idea you were trying to suggest? Correct me if I'm wrong here... Just trying to get a better sense...

    I think my initial understanding was that you wanted a different style of stealth than what we have now after every kill, which is partly why I critiqued it so much. If you meant, in fact, the "auto-stealth" after CDG, I agree that would be neat!

    Unfortunately, it would inevitably contribute to imbalances if every skill had that, just due to the nature of the skill. It also doesn't register in combat logs etc. etc. ****

    I'm not "afraid of change" as you insinuate. I was saying these changes didn't make sense — coming from my perspective— to implement with Burglar's current situation. I never claimed to be the best burglar in the game, or an all-knowing burglar god. Was just offering my two-pence.

    The classes at the top have other reasons aside from mechanics (see: fire damage) which balloons their dps to the levels it is currently.

    The fast pace can be difficult at times to keep up with. I agree with that. However, as I've said before, and you're already aware of, each class plays differently. Burglars are not the fast-paced, mindlessly-kill everything-in-sight kind of class. If you're looking for that sort of gameplay experience, LotRO forces you to change classes to reap the benefits of different styles, rather than adapt a class to however you desire. Other games might have systems that are more personalized, I frankly dont know. But, like it or not, this setup is unlikely to change (class changes in general are few and far between, unless its a gamebreaking bug or exploit). It just is what it is. Sorry to break it to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    I personally do not see a reason to change the class, but adjust and as I said I like playing it, with different strategies at that too. (I will admit that I have not played yellow line really)
    But as it is normal to compete and the very emotional thread where people are coming in asking to nerf burglar class because it is #4 damage wise, this thread is a proof of it.
    I'm glad that you like burglar... Quite honestly, I'm trying to be helpful in my posts. I don't like forum nastiness any more than you do. I'm not one of those "keyboard warrior" types. Perhaps there is a class question or tactic I can try to answer that will improve your damage? Worth a shot. Just trying to help.

    I dont recall asking for a nerf? I'm confused by this assertion. I said burglars were fine as is... Also, being #4 in damage? I never talked about that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaxmaxmillion View Post
    PS.
    Do not make it personal.
    I am a nice guy, it will just roll of my back and you will regret the negativity you gave rise to about all these imaginary "characters".
    Sigh... I will reiterate that I was not making a personal attack, so just take a deep breath please. I was listing reasons — from my perspective — of why your changes wouldn't work — also from my perspective — while also trying to clarify why you might think one way or another would be a worthwhile change. If you were seeing it as anything more than a measured response to your idea, then perhaps you should try to have more self-confidence / self-regard of yourself, and not take feedback so personally. My critiques of the hunter were about the class as a whole, not your hunter, or you, yourself. I could care less about how you play LotRO. I said so in my previous post: play a hunter, play a burg! Play both! Play everything! It doesn't matter to me.

    Your post left it open to feedback, so I gave mine. If you felt it was overly critical, that's your opinion of it. I tried to be direct about my response, and sometimes I can come across as more upfront than I intend it to be. I do think you confused some other forum member's responses with mine at some point while writing your post. Regardless, you may feel free to dismiss it, or think about it as you please. That's all. .
    ~ Throllo
    Last edited by fmac81; Mar 15 2018 at 01:16 AM.
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