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  1. #1

    Champion suggestions for upcoming class balancing

    With the upcoming class changes I thought we could start a thread consolidating ideas to help the devs when they get round to the champion.



    Post your thoughts and suggestions and let's discuss how to improve the champion.
    Rakanor R12 Reaver - Trin R11 Champion

  2. #2
    Aside from balancing damage numbers here are my suggestions.







    • Crit magnitude legacy: cap at 50% add secondary +melee skill damage or some base damage modifier.
    • Fear nothing: reduce base cd to 25sec, legacy reduction to -15sec and make it remove disarm effect in addition to current removal.
    • Bracing attack: this needs to scale better as we level, possibly reintroduce improved bracing attack of old with a HoT.
    • Fight on: cooldown reduced to 1min.
      • Legacy: critical rating changed to +melee/range/tactical defence rating buff lasts for 20sec.

    • Wild attack: Animation is sped up and base damage is increased in relation to other skills.
    • True heroics: cooldown reduced to 1min
    • Rend is now a general skill with no bleed. The rend armour debuff is not as strong as at 105 which is a good thing but is still something we can bring to the group. These changes would allow champs to trait single target for single target fights and still bring this benefit to the group.
      • Red line: rend becomes rending strike and replaces devastating strike. Combines current verion of devastating strike with the armour reduction of rend. All devastating strike bonuses from tratis apply to rending strike. Cooldown of rending strike is 8.4sec double that of standard rend.
      • Yellow Line: rend becomes rending blades and keeps all its current benifits from yellow.

    • Brutal and savage/feral strikes: remove the hidden -40% critical magnitude from 2nd and 3rd strikes.


    • Dual wield weapon master: change 3% parry to +10% off hand weapon damage (can't remember the off-hand damage penalty)Controlled burn: +15% melee damage becomes +15% skill damage.
    • Emboldened blades: t5 guarantees a crit.
    • Hamstring: base cooldown reduced to 10sec
      • t5 of hamstrung trait doubles cooldown and gives knockdown.

    • Sprint: base cooldown reduced to 2mins.
      • Athletic trait reduces cooldown by 10/20/30 seconds.
      • Sprint legacy gives duration and evade max +15 seconds


    • Blade wall: once again builds 1 fervour.
    • Born for combat: Now triggers after 4 or 5 aoe skill uses.


    • Glory bonus: -2% from fervour spent tiers down 4sec also decreases damage from ranged and tactical sources.
    • Champions challenge: cooldown reduced to 15sec in blue traits.
    • Masocism: partials also reflect the increased threat effect.
    • Placed strike: t5 of the trait makes riposte sweeping riposte 100% of the time.
    • Aggressive exchange: debuff duration increased to 6seconds.
    • Adamant: duration increased by 5 seconds.
    • Fight through the pain and unstable: No longer procs on taking critical hits, now procs on full B/P/E.
    • Horn of champions: while traited blue acts as a force taunt.
    • Sudden defense: bubble needs to scale better as we level.



    I would also love to see a return to actually building and spending fervour starting with the removal of max rank ardent rage bonus. However I think that ship may have sailed into the West.
    Last edited by Rakanor; Feb 13 2018 at 06:58 AM.
    Rakanor R12 Reaver - Trin R11 Champion

  3. #3
    Firstly fire mitigation debuff potency of RKs and LMs have to be reduced, so all damage types (light, fire, frost, beleriand, westernesse, ancient dwarf) will be equally efficient in group content. After that they can continue on class balance.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  4. #4
    @ Rakanor

    Some good points / suggestions. I will go further into detail as soon as I have more time.

    @ Krindel

    100% agree that all damage types should be (at least almost) equally efficient in group content. But for sure this will be kind of complicated.
    Either one would have to remove exisiting fire mit debuffs completely and change them to general tactical & physical mit debuffs, or leave fire mitigation debuffs as they are and introduce counterparts for all other damage types, which would be a more complicated way.

    Cheers,
    Vala
    Valanduin [Champ] & Valanduir [Warden] & Valanur [RK]
    Gwaihir [EU-DE] | Die Reiter von Rohan

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    I would also love to see a return to actually building and spending fervour starting with the removal of max rank ardent rage bonus. However I think that ship may have sailed into the West.
    I miss those times too... u_u

    Just feel like throwing in my $0.02 to this in what will most likely be a wall of text... sorry
    I think your recommendations for yellow/red are right on the mark and would do well to help champs actually do the best they can by playing a champ and not rerolling a hunt*rd... I just want to throw in what I think more specifically of your blue recommendations. Most of them would be great to have, but a few of them I would sort of disagree on.

    • Champions challenge: cooldown reduced to 15sec in blue traits.
    • True heroics: cooldown reduced to 1min
    • Horn of champions: while traited blue acts as a force taunt.

    One thing I like about chanking (and from what I can tell, others who do it feel the same way for the most part) is how it is reminiscent of the old threat system, and hasn't devolved to what every other tank has become (taunt-to-win). I would be very wary about reducing the cooldowns on our taunts too much... Champion's Challenge going down to 15 seconds in blue I think would be ok, but I think True Heroics should stay at least at around 1minute 30s or so, just to make sure this doesn't happen. With Horn of Champions, I think it would be better suited to not make it an actual taunt, but a threat multiplier that works similarly to the way War Chant works on a guard. Give it a threat multiplier that is vastly higher than most other skills, but don't make it an actual taunt.

    • Aggressive exchange: debuff duration increased to 6seconds.

    This would definitely be a welcome change. Would help to keep it up more reliably, because as it stands with the Blade Wall animation, if we just spam Blade Wall and nothing else, we still can't keep it up perfectly 100% of the time. If we use another skill alternating with Blade Wall, the skill delay doesn't let us use Blade Wall off cooldown because it is just so slow...

    Here's a condensed version of what I would recommend is changed for blue line. Full explanations are here.
    • Seriously fix skill delay... It cripples blue champ to a ridiculous extent...
    • Change Vitality trait in blue (tier 2) to +% Incoming Healing. Give it +1/2% per rank, with a total of 5 ranks.
    • Adamant: Increase legacy to give +20s (max of 30s) instead of +5s. (Really, just give it a 50% uptime. Duration/cooldown is not as important.)
    • Unbreakable: Tact Mit rating buff changed to percentage (+0.5% per tier? +1%?) And the damage burst available at t10 should be changed to either a much larger Sudden Defence (~70% max morale bubble?) or a Shield of the Dunedain type bubble (explained here).
    • Sudden Defence: Obviously increase bubble potency. (~4.6k at 115 with max fervour exhausted? That's not even laughable, just sad...)
    • Good Defence/Strong Offence: Maybe give a defeat response when bubble pops (explained below for use)? I think that'd be interesting.
    • Unstable: Buff needs to be made multiplicative and adjusted accordingly. I'd recommend proc'ing on defeat responses, or if not, BPE like the OP said.
    • Fight Through the Pain: Good buff, change the proc to defeat responses/BPE like for Unstable.
    • Bracing Attack: Like OP said, Scale main heal, add HoT component like we used to have before trait trees.
    • Dire Need: Change to drain x% of current power, and take the percentage of that power compared to your max power, and restore it to morale. (40% max drain = 40% heal. 20% max drain (because power is half full) = 20% heal, etc.)
    • Ebbing/Rising Ire: Obligatory QQ
    • Hedge (or lack thereof): Give us Hedge back. It used to remove disarms, give the armour rating of a (heavy?) shield, and give a ton of wound resistance. 15s duration, 12s cooldown, so permanent buff.
    • Riposte: Change Sweeping Riposte proc to what OP said (t5 Placed Strike gives 100% Sweeping Reposte proc chance). Also, increase Sweeping Riposte from 3 targets to 5 or 8. Even with +5 targets from yellow, we only have 8 total, which often is not enough.
    • Exchange of Blows: I would love to see this given back to blue (replace Merciful Strike capstone) and have its duration/cooldown augmented to be a 50% uptime so you can dance it back and forth with Adamant. I'd recommend changing it though so that while active, Exchange of Blows sets incoming damage reduction to 0%, so no buffs will increase it. Makes it a very situational use then. (Just buff yellow DPS accordingly when this is removed.)
    Last edited by ColMcStacky; Feb 13 2018 at 11:32 AM.

  6. #6
    At first, i think SSG is aiming towards more minor changes and straight damage buffs, rather then reducing the cd of certain skills or changing there mechanics.
    And im not a big fan of putting to much work into the blueline champ, to make him an actuall tank besides cappy and guardian.
    I would realy like to see a strong redchamp and the old continues blood rage, atm the berserk tree feels not like a berserker, a berserker should be squishy , combined with the ability to deal insane damage.

    In my opinion there are some simple ways to put the champ,in the first phase of balacing ,near hunters/rk´s dps.

    -Change finesse so it mitigate partials or add a way that champions can mitigate it somhow (like hunter or burg). (In throne for example you have like 0% partials, because its lvl 105 content, and your dps comes super close to hunters or rk´s dps. Thats why i think this is one of the most important thinks to do, its an easy but such an impactfull fix)

    - Increasing Twohanded Weapon Dps, by default or via traits, either in the skilltree or on the weapon.
    - Currently traits that add +% damage to a skill, just add the damage to the mainhand and not the offhand.
    - Overthink certain traits or skills that add +mele damage and give them a streight +damage component.
    Gertes

  7. #7

    Good start to the conversation

    At the moment Champions are not used endgame, not used in the raid due to their weak-sause scaling.
    As i doubt some of the huge changes proposed by some dreamers and lovers of blue line champ (which has never really got attention) so forget about it.

    Lets look at what champ was born for, killing the minions of evil dynesty warriors style, aka AOE insanity. Here are a few simple fixes:

    Simple fixes:
    Scale rend to a 10-15% armor debuff, insted of its pointless-ness right now. When champs have something to contribute uniquly to the group they will get used end game.
    Update Flurry for the love of all thats good and holy, having to use so many crit essences hurts. Flurry is what right now like +1200 crit, should be more lik 8-10k like a cappy buff.
    Add a real armor penetration to skill tree, to offset the partial avoid non-sense. Or a +20k finess in yellow insted of these tiny numbers like 1k.
    For the love give champs at least 1 half-way-decent armor set bonus, current bonuses are total garbage and dont buff dps in any way on a dps based class that currently lacks dps.

    A few dreams to improve champ:
    Add a cc skill or disarm to a champ skill, or remove the number of trait pointes needed for upgraded hamstring and sprint. (both skills are meh conpared to other classes similar skills, long cooldowns and short durations. As an arms master a champ should be able to run and slice.
    Add a move speed buff that corresponds to +fervor like +5% per ferver - so max +25% (in combat)

    (i have been playing champ since the old days, and lotro since beta, please fix my favorite class)
    I'll even make my wife bake you some cupcakes. true story.

  8. #8
    I guess that for yellow line would be interesting to add a skill that could avoid the champ from attacking one foe, so we could go AoE in raids and control our dps on bosses while taking down multiple minions. There could be some testing to it, like it's cooldown, duration and conditions for it breaking, like making it break if attack the target directly.
    That sounds like an kind of easy change and something that could make aoe less harmfull to some bosses.

  9. #9
    I donßt get your point here, where is the aoe damage of a champ a problem in bossfights?
    Gertes

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I donßt get your point here, where is the aoe damage of a champ a problem in bossfights?
    There are bosses that you need to control the dps or there will be many mobs spawning. I can't really point where though, but I guess Lintanar from silent street used to be one, and probably there are others.
    Obviously, that's a very occasional situation, and far less important than the general champ balance.
    Valadao (champ), Dissikni (minstrel)
    Evernight; The Outlaw Brotherhood kinship.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GValadao View Post
    There are bosses that you need to control the dps or there will be many mobs spawning. I can't really point where though, but I guess Lintanar from silent street used to be one, and probably there are others.
    Obviously, that's a very occasional situation, and far less important than the general champ balance.
    You certainly didnt need to limit aoe on that boss. We would start with full nuke on the boss and 40s later everything dead.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    You certainly didnt need to limit aoe on that boss. We would start with full nuke on the boss and 40s later everything dead.
    That's how it was after you got a geared group, but when I was still gearing i remember some groups would wipe out as many mobs would spawn and couldn't be killed fast enough.
    Valadao (champ), Dissikni (minstrel)
    Evernight; The Outlaw Brotherhood kinship.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GValadao View Post
    That's how it was after you got a geared group, but when I was still gearing i remember some groups would wipe out as many mobs would spawn and couldn't be killed fast enough.
    Thats why you do not limit aoe, you simply stop heavy single target dps. Aoe dps isnt high enough to trigger such bosses too frequently.

  14. #14
    For the Beginning I would already be happy when Champions get mitgations from there main attributes,
    like other classes in the game,
    Having to slot all your essence with mitgations campared to maybe one for other damage dealers to reaching the t2 Caps is just BS.

    Also a scroll, Item or skill that gives us firedamage would be cool
    Last edited by Malganis_Lefay; Feb 18 2018 at 04:51 AM.

  15. #15
    I would like to add, that something needs to be done with the might stat in general. Currently agility classes have to many much benefits sats wise, they get crit and physical mastery (same goes for will classes, wth mastery and tact. mitigation.) And might add´s nothing that would be usefull, additional to mastery.
    Maby you could add 1 more mastery point per might (so your are so mighty that your attacks hit harder), or something that I also would like, add a avoidance mitigation to it.

    I mean 2 out of the 3 best endgame DD´s currently are agility classes, with nearly 0 partial bpe problems. This is also a result of stat imbalance between might/agility/will (and partials ) that lead to the big gap we have currently between DPS classes.
    Gertes

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    At first, i think SSG is aiming towards more minor changes and straight damage buffs, rather then reducing the cd of certain skills or changing there mechanics.
    And im not a big fan of putting to much work into the blueline champ, to make him an actuall tank besides cappy and guardian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjayo View Post
    AAs i doubt some of the huge changes proposed by some dreamers and lovers of blue line champ (which has never really got attention) so forget about it.
    I realize not everyone is a fan of blue line, and I realize that I neglected to mention this earlier: I don't think it should really get any work until yellow/red are fixed/competitive, as those are the lines that are more integral to the class as a whole. I was just offering suggestions to fix blue for when they come down to the lower end of the priority list is all. Also, I'm not expecting them to implement every idea I was giving, just giving a few different options they could go about to make it interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjayo View Post
    Scale rend to a 10-15% armor debuff, insted of its pointless-ness right now. When champs have something to contribute uniquly to the group they will get used end game.
    I haven't specifically tested it or anything, but I'm pretty sure rend is already more than a 10% debuff to armour. If we assume enemies have heavy mits, then the current ~10k rend debuff compared to 78k armour (assuming all physical mits comes from armour) would be about 12-13% debuff, so already in that range. (Assuming light mits, 10k / 60k = ~17% debuff.) If enemies have mitigations coming from a source other than armour, this number increases since the armour value decreases. I'd say making rend percentage based because of this would be more detrimental than helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I would like to add, that something needs to be done with the might stat in general. Currently agility classes have to many much benefits sats wise, they get crit and physical mastery (same goes for will classes, wth mastery and tact. mitigation.) And might add´s nothing that would be usefull, additional to mastery.
    Maby you could add 1 more mastery point per might (so your are so mighty that your attacks hit harder), or something that I also would like, add a avoidance mitigation to it.
    That is a very good point. If you look at agility classes, hunters and burgs are pretty strong (with wardens falling behind). For will, RK's are up there with hunters (LM and mini aren't really DPS classes, and if an LM gears for it, they can actually get somewhat respectable AoE damage anyway). Then for might classes, you have champs, guards, cappies, and beornings, all of which are hurting for damage at the moment (well, guard/cappy for somewhat good reason).
    The fact that might doesn't give any secondary stats beneficial for a DPS while agility/will does makes me think that the stat contributions should be looked at. Either give might classes a secondary DPS stat, or increase the mastery contribution of might.

  17. #17
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    I've quoted and commented on some suggestions I agree with. That's not to say I don't agree with other suggestions. For me though, the biggest issue is that Champions need a role in raids. The last two raids I went on people said, "we don't really need a champion for this raid". I think it's fair to say that champs are either obsolete for raids, or almost obsolete at this point.

    I believe part of the problem is that champs weren't set up to scale very well. We don't get as much benefits from our primary stat as some of the other classes. A lot of our skills don't scale well. Some of our best skills bosses are immune to.

    I believe another part of the problem is also raid mechanisms. There are some raids where bosses basically one shot melee classes that can't tank (champs and burgs). Our ranged DPS is so low that we basically stand around and watch at that point.

    I believe a third part of the problem is that we don't have things like ranged DPS or stealth which pretty much perfectly scale. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting giving champions either. I don't want those things for my champ, however a hunter being able to kite around a melee mob while DPSing it will never become unimportant. Neither will stealth become unuseful. A champ pretty much has to be able to stand in front of their target(s) and take damage, and I don't think champs have kept up in that area.

    I think the state champions are in right now is that they don't have much to offer a raid (which isn't unique to champions), and in yellow line they gain too much aggro for the amount of DPS they can withstand. My assumption is that yellow line is what people want fixed for raiding. So I'd suggest making rend important enough so 12 man raids will want a couple of champs. This should not only be true for cleaning up trash, but also for the bosses. Yellow line champs should then be able to take enough of the bosses DPS to use rend on them. Whether that means getting rid of the massive AOE damage some bosses do, or increasing yellow line's ability to take AOE damage, increasing yellow line's healing, or making it so yellow champs can block or avoid boss AOE by timing something right, I don't really care. Any of those solutions, or a combination of them would be fine by me.

    •Bracing attack: this needs to scale better as we level, possibly reintroduce improved bracing attack of old with a HoT.
    •Sudden defense: bubble needs to scale better as we level.
    These are both virtually useless at 115. In my opinion we should either fix them (including making them scale better), or get rid of them and focus on other things.

    •Champions challenge: cooldown reduced to 15sec in blue traits.
    With Horn of Champions, I think it would be better suited to not make it an actual taunt, but a threat multiplier that works similarly to the way War Chant works on a guard. Give it a threat multiplier that is vastly higher than most other skills, but don't make it an actual taunt.
    Blue line absolutely needs to be better at getting and keeping aggro, otherwise it's not very useful. Even if blue line was accidently made OP, it wouldn't be useful for raids because champs suck at getting and keeping aggro.

    -Change finesse so it mitigate partials or add a way that champions can mitigate it somhow (like hunter or burg). (In throne for example you have like 0% partials, because its lvl 105 content, and your dps comes super close to hunters or rk´s dps. Thats why i think this is one of the most important thinks to do, its an easy but such an impactfull fix)
    Yeah, I'm no expert, but this sounds like HE knows what he's talking about. However, I'd be okay with this being fixed other ways.

    Scale rend to a 10-15% armor debuff, insted of its pointless-ness right now. When champs have something to contribute uniquly to the group they will get used end game.
    I actually prefer playing in red line. That's how I played until I read that people expect you to play in yellow for raids. Now I always play in yellow for raids, because it WAS the only line worth playing in raids. Now it isn't worth playing either. We don't bring much to a raid anymore, and that's exactly as designed. Why it was designed this way, or whether or not it was on purpose I don't know. However, it seems traditionally rending armour has been champ's thing in raids. So it might be a good idea to make this our contribution again.

    I would like to add, that something needs to be done with the might stat in general. Currently agility classes have to many much benefits stats wise, they get crit and physical mastery (same goes for will classes, wth mastery and tact. mitigation.) And might adds nothing that would be usefull, additional to mastery.
    This absolutely needs to be fixed unless SSG wasnts to keep breaking and fixing Champs. There are other solutions, but they appear to be unpopular, so we need to go back to the way stats are derived and fix it for Champs.

    Personally I'd also like to see Champion's Duel changed from:
    Every 3 seconds:
    Reduces the out-going damage by - 5%
    +3% Melee Damage (from Champ)

    To:
    Every 3 seconds:
    Increases the in-coming damage by + 5%
    -3% Melee Damage (to Champ)

    Because I think the point of red line is to do single target DPS, not reduce everyone's damage.

    Also, I'd like to see sprint replaced with an AOE disarm, a captain's Last Stand or something like that (someone else will probably have a better idea). The reason being that I hate being a "run away champ".

  18. #18
    Obviously, the main changes should be focused on making champs and other Melee DPS classes viable in level 115 instance and raids. My current (glass cannon) build has critical rating at cap, physical mastery at 350%, and finesse at 25%, and damage on 115 T2 is pitiful (not to mention I'm too squishy because I am sacrificing mitigation and morale to reach those numbers).

    - Improve Rend Armour Reduction and Bleed Damage LI legacies - these did not scale up well with the Mordor stat jump . Max was -6300 armour, now max is -7300 armour, while mitigation max has almost tripled. Armour reduction either needs be increased 2-3x the current level, or switched to a % of armour. When 105 was level cap, Rend was highly desired by groups, especially on the Dread Terror raid. Since it didn't scale up and champ DPS is way down vs level 115 mobs, champs aren't wanted for groups at 115.

    - Improve Horn of Gondor Physical Mitigation debuff LI legacy - like Rend, this did not scale up with Mordor. Max was around 4900, now max is 5900, while mitigation max nearly tripled. When used in conjunction with Rend, this could possibly reduce mob mitigations enough for Champs (and other melee DPS classes) to be effective against 115 instance foes

    - Fix mitigations in general - obviously something is off with mitigations, as Light & Fire damage is the only thing that works well right now against 115 mobs in instances and raids. Either reduce enemy mitigations or scale up base skill damage values so that other damage types will not be weak.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    Obviously, the main changes should be focused on making champs and other Melee DPS classes viable in level 115 instance and raids. My current (glass cannon) build has critical rating at cap, physical mastery at 350%, and finesse at 25%, and damage on 115 T2 is pitiful (not to mention I'm too squishy because I am sacrificing mitigation and morale to reach those numbers).

    - Improve Rend Armour Reduction and Bleed Damage LI legacies - these did not scale up well with the Mordor stat jump . Max was -6300 armour, now max is -7300 armour, while mitigation max has almost tripled. Armour reduction either needs be increased 2-3x the current level, or switched to a % of armour. When 105 was level cap, Rend was highly desired by groups, especially on the Dread Terror raid. Since it didn't scale up and champ DPS is way down vs level 115 mobs, champs aren't wanted for groups at 115.

    - Improve Horn of Gondor Physical Mitigation debuff LI legacy - like Rend, this did not scale up with Mordor. Max was around 4900, now max is 5900, while mitigation max nearly tripled. When used in conjunction with Rend, this could possibly reduce mob mitigations enough for Champs (and other melee DPS classes) to be effective against 115 instance foes

    - Fix mitigations in general - obviously something is off with mitigations, as Light & Fire damage is the only thing that works well right now against 115 mobs in instances and raids. Either reduce enemy mitigations or scale up base skill damage values so that other damage types will not be weak.
    Perfect idea. That would definitely scale yellow line against 115 mobs. The critical rating bonus from a passive skill (cant remember the name) need to be scaled as well. Also, enemies's mitigation against melees is too strong. Not to mention the avoids, that makes you feel like you are fighting with a wood stick instead of sword. With something around 95k finesse, 20%, full avoids seems to be ok, but partials which finesse doesnt matter happens all the time. Is so annoying.

    Anyway, red and blue line though, are the ones which need more attention atm. Even if SSG solve the issue of mobs mitigation and avoids against melee, all striking skills will need a huge upgrade. I'd say something around 100% increase to be a viable dps option. They could tier remorseless strike too.
    For blue line, change to % most of the defensive skills will help a lot. But that line is so out of scale at 115 that I believe it'll take a lot of time to be viable again.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    Obviously, the main changes should be focused on making champs and other Melee DPS classes viable in level 115 instance and raids. My current (glass cannon) build has critical rating at cap, physical mastery at 350%, and finesse at 25%, and damage on 115 T2 is pitiful (not to mention I'm too squishy because I am sacrificing mitigation and morale to reach those numbers).

    - Improve Rend Armour Reduction and Bleed Damage LI legacies - these did not scale up well with the Mordor stat jump . Max was -6300 armour, now max is -7300 armour, while mitigation max has almost tripled. Armour reduction either needs be increased 2-3x the current level, or switched to a % of armour. When 105 was level cap, Rend was highly desired by groups, especially on the Dread Terror raid. Since it didn't scale up and champ DPS is way down vs level 115 mobs, champs aren't wanted for groups at 115.

    - Improve Horn of Gondor Physical Mitigation debuff LI legacy - like Rend, this did not scale up with Mordor. Max was around 4900, now max is 5900, while mitigation max nearly tripled. When used in conjunction with Rend, this could possibly reduce mob mitigations enough for Champs (and other melee DPS classes) to be effective against 115 instance foes

    - Fix mitigations in general - obviously something is off with mitigations, as Light & Fire damage is the only thing that works well right now against 115 mobs in instances and raids. Either reduce enemy mitigations or scale up base skill damage values so that other damage types will not be weak.
    And yet, a friend of mine with which I partner up for COS t2c clearly both trashes and bosses like it's a joke. He outright beats most of the hunter players on Arkenstone in DPS on bosses. While a buff is in order, it's more about the content champs face more so than the class itself.
    Edit: Rather than buff, nerf to top DPS classes and bring them in line with the champs. Increase fire mits on mobs and rest will sort itself out.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    And yet, a friend of mine with which I partner up for COS t2c clearly both trashes and bosses like it's a joke. He outright beats most of the hunter players on Arkenstone in DPS on bosses. While a buff is in order, it's more about the content champs face more so than the class itself.
    Edit: Rather than buff, nerf to top DPS classes and bring them in line with the champs. Increase fire mits on mobs and rest will sort itself out.
    Zipfile is a frequent poster in non guardian forums and I usually disagree with him in most regards but I do believe that he's right in that the top dps classes rk/Hunter definitely don't need to be doing upwards of 100k dps single target. All it does is promote stacking of those two classes so that groups can ignore mechanics and Faceroll through t2c's. But that discussion belongs in a different forum. I do agree that red line needs some changes, specifically to LI legacies, and most importantly melee classes need to have finesse effect partial b/p/e. In older content, champs can keep up similar dps to RK's and Hunters due to the significantly lesser amount of partial avoids.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    - Improve Rend Armour Reduction and Bleed Damage LI legacies - these did not scale up well with the Mordor stat jump . Max was -6300 armour, now max is -7300 armour, while mitigation max has almost tripled. Armour reduction either needs be increased 2-3x the current level, or switched to a % of armour. When 105 was level cap, Rend was highly desired by groups, especially on the Dread Terror raid. Since it didn't scale up and champ DPS is way down vs level 115 mobs, champs aren't wanted for groups at 115.

    - Improve Horn of Gondor Physical Mitigation debuff LI legacy - like Rend, this did not scale up with Mordor. Max was around 4900, now max is 5900, while mitigation max nearly tripled. When used in conjunction with Rend, this could possibly reduce mob mitigations enough for Champs (and other melee DPS classes) to be effective against 115 instance foes
    I've come to the opinion, that perhaps the best way to avoid problems like this in the future, is to set such skills to a percent. One "negative effect" as far as champions go, it that it would nerf champions against lower level mobs. A positive is these skills would actually become more powerful against mobs with higher armour and Pmits. The best part though, would be we wouldn't have to fix these skills every time the level increases.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    27
    My suggestions:

    • (for any class requiring a buff) Buff the primary stat to give more ratings per point. Remove or increase stat caps.
    • (to make sure all classes are wanted) Make each class innately apply a +5% damage done buff to all fellowship members. This buff will stack if different classes are used, up to +50% (there are 10 classes). For healing classes/trees it can be implemented as an aura tied to a stance or something similar. To keep the difficulty scale about the same, either increase the morale of all enemies across the world OR apply a universal nerf of -5% damage to all player classes.
    • The same concept can be applied to ensure tanking/healing variety.


    I don't think specific talents, skills, or gear changes will work because they won't be universal across all content levels, talent lines or gameplay styles. Only the most basic stats are universal.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    405
    Quote Originally Posted by Brain9H View Post
    My suggestions:

    • (for any class requiring a buff) Buff the primary stat to give more ratings per point. Remove or increase stat caps.
    • (to make sure all classes are wanted) Make each class innately apply a +5% damage done buff to all fellowship members. This buff will stack if different classes are used, up to +50% (there are 10 classes). For healing classes/trees it can be implemented as an aura tied to a stance or something similar. To keep the difficulty scale about the same, either increase the morale of all enemies across the world OR apply a universal nerf of -5% damage to all player classes.
    • The same concept can be applied to ensure tanking/healing variety.


    I don't think specific talents, skills, or gear changes will work because they won't be universal across all content levels, talent lines or gameplay styles. Only the most basic stats are universal.
    It seems to me if they really wanted to have more variety there are a few ways they could get to what is basically a 5% increase in DPS. For example, increasing fellowship fighting speed by 5%, adding about a 5% bleed to every attack from the fellowship, lowering mob mitigations by 5% by whatever percent would be required to increase DPS by 5% (this would require a formula, and thus might not be worth doing), providing a dread type effect that reduces the mobs max morale by about 5%, and a 10% fellowship dps bonus skill which lasts 30 seconds with a 1 min cooldown. They could also mix it up a little by making it so some of these apply as an AOE bonus, whereas others require the mobs to be "marked" with no limit on the number marked, and others require that the characters be "marked", again with no limit on the number of players. These things wouldn't be equal, but they might be close enough to make taking one of every class as often as possible worthwhile.

    To be clear, I'm not against your idea. However, it seems some people like there to be more differentiation, so if that becomes a stumbling block, mixing it up a bit like this might be a compromise solution.

    As another option. It might be easier to only have this apply for the fellowship and raid instances. That way there would be less change required.

    Also, I don't think this would necessarily be a solution for issues with 3 man instances. In a lot of those you might want a healer, a tank, and a dps class. However, if one class falls into one of those roles, but significantly under-performs in that role, then they won't get invited often because you can get the 5% bonus dps from other classes. So classes filling the same role would have to be reasonably close in effectiveness.
    Last edited by Int; Apr 01 2018 at 03:51 AM.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post
    It seems to me if they really wanted to have more variety .
    They do, otherwise they wouldn't bother with class balance.

    Also have in mind that new players on their first characters are getting frustrated mid-levelling when they learn their chosen class is considered "####" by many. That's my case, and many others I've talked to.

    The importance of class balance is more than replayability, it is mostly because people get personally attached to their characters. Being rejected in group setting is REALLY bad.

 

 
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