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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I would like to add, that something needs to be done with the might stat in general. Currently agility classes have to many much benefits sats wise, they get crit and physical mastery (same goes for will classes, wth mastery and tact. mitigation.) And might add´s nothing that would be usefull, additional to mastery.
    Maby you could add 1 more mastery point per might (so your are so mighty that your attacks hit harder), or something that I also would like, add a avoidance mitigation to it.

    I mean 2 out of the 3 best endgame DD´s currently are agility classes, with nearly 0 partial bpe problems. This is also a result of stat imbalance between might/agility/will (and partials ) that lead to the big gap we have currently between DPS classes.
    This is definitely part of the problem with the 'balancing' issue. Anyone who plays an Agility Class and a Champ sees it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post

    - Fix mitigations in general - obviously something is off with mitigations, as Light & Fire damage is the only thing that works well right now against 115 mobs in instances and raids. Either reduce enemy mitigations or scale up base skill damage values so that other damage types will not be weak.
    SSG should have realized this wasn't going to be fair to all classes as fire/light can't be used by all.

    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    Edit: Rather than buff, nerf to top DPS classes and bring them in line with the champs. Increase fire mits on mobs and rest will sort itself out.
    If nothing else that would be fairer than what we have.
    "Never argue with a fool, it's difficult to tell the difference"

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brain9H View Post
    They do, otherwise they wouldn't bother with class balance.

    Also have in mind that new players on their first characters are getting frustrated mid-levelling when they learn their chosen class is considered "####" by many. That's my case, and many others I've talked to.

    The importance of class balance is more than replayability, it is mostly because people get personally attached to their characters. Being rejected in group setting is REALLY bad.
    Yeah. Here are some comments I've heard during raids recently. "You really don't need a champion for this raid" (heard that in two different raids). "That's what you get for playing a champ" (dying because too much aggro from AOE skills).

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximilan View Post
    SSG should have realized this wasn't going to be fair to all classes as fire/light can't be used by all.
    I'm not sure this was entirely intentional. It may be something that had been broken for a while and was only discovered or magnified when the Mordor stat change came. It certainly doesn't seem like SSG was terribly concerned about the class imbalance, seeing as they only committed to class changes after several months of player complaints.

    Anyway, red and blue line though, are the ones which need more attention atm. Even if SSG solve the issue of mobs mitigation and avoids against melee, all striking skills will need a huge upgrade. I'd say something around 100% increase to be a viable dps option. They could tier remorseless strike too.
    For blue line, change to % most of the defensive skills will help a lot. But that line is so out of scale at 115 that I believe it'll take a lot of time to be viable again.
    Red and blue lines need to be addressed as well. Fixing mitigations should go a long way to fixing red line (It's pretty crazy that Devastating Blow can get a non-BPE, non-crit damage on one use, and the very next use with no changes to buffs/debuffs, it crits for 50k). I'm thinking the Vitality increase trait in blue, Might in red, and Finesse in yellow all need to be turned into percentage increases, since the stat addition has become fairly useless at level 106 (1k finesse was signifcant at level 105, now its nothing when one piece of gear comes with 10k+ finesse). With blue line, I would think that improving healing skill LI legacies may be a good way to go, but I'm less familiar with it, since I only have started with an end-game tank build.

  4. #29
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    A suggestion I recently heard that deserves consideration is adding Tmit to heavy armour (or rather making armour count 100% towards Tmit rather than 20%). Right now, with the reduction in the number of essence slots in armour a champ would have to use nearly half their armour slots to get their Tmit to match their Pmit, which would make them unlikely to be effective.

    Also, BPE should probably be rethought. Agility classes get Parry/Evade whereas Might classes get Parry/Block. Evade is FAR superior to Block. Block only works if you carry a shield or 2H weapon, and then only if you are facing the enemy (which is ironic because sprint gives you a bonus to evade for when champs run away, but then they can't use block or parry). The whole screwed up block issue seems to come from when developers made the decision to take shields away from champs (I'm guessing this was around the time they decided to release a "premium class" that cost LOTRO points and was meant to take away some of the roll champs had filled).

    Champs could probably use BPE that works whether they're facing mobs or not more than any other class. The reason is because they have AOE that is centered around their bodies. So a good champ will often find themselves running away from a mob (kiting it) while DPSing it. Sadly, they lose ALL their Block/Parry at the same time (usually they have little to no evade), which IMHO is a design flaw in the class. They also don't have any block unless they're using a 2h weapon, which I believe frequently makes them ineffective for DPS in raids.

    What I would suggest is allowing champs to have block in dual wield OR with a 2H weapon, and allowing block to work in all directions. There's no real reason to make block only effective while facing the target anymore. Whereas once it meant using a shield, that's no longer the case. When that idea was dropped, the idea that block only worked if you were facing the mob should have been dropped as well. There's also no reason why block should be limited to 2H weapons.

    Now, before people come in and complain about how blocking behind you doesn't make sense, let me just point out that champs already hit people behind them, and it is in fact possible to block an attack that originates behind you. Plus if blocking an attack from behind doesn't make sense, than neither does evading one from behind.

    Finally, I'd like to point out that the issue of mitigation with less essence slots, and problems with stat derivations (particularly the evade vs block issue) were brought up in the forums (and not addressed) BEFORE Mordor was released. So part of the problem here is not listening to players before releasing new content.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post
    A suggestion I recently heard that deserves consideration is adding Tmit to heavy armour (or rather making armour count 100% towards Tmit rather than 20%). Right now, with the reduction in the number of essence slots in armour a champ would have to use nearly half their armour slots to get their Tmit to match their Pmit, which would make them unlikely to be effective.

    Also, BPE should probably be rethought. Agility classes get Parry/Evade whereas Might classes get Parry/Block. Evade is FAR superior to Block. Block only works if you carry a shield or 2H weapon, and then only if you are facing the enemy (which is ironic because sprint gives you a bonus to evade for when champs run away, but then they can't use block or parry). The whole screwed up block issue seems to come from when developers made the decision to take shields away from champs (I'm guessing this was around the time they decided to release a "premium class" that cost LOTRO points and was meant to take away some of the roll champs had filled).

    Champs could probably use BPE that works whether they're facing mobs or not more than any other class. The reason is because they have AOE that is centered around their bodies. So a good champ will often find themselves running away from a mob (kiting it) while DPSing it. Sadly, they lose ALL their Block/Parry at the same time (usually they have little to no evade), which IMHO is a design flaw in the class. They also don't have any block unless they're using a 2h weapon, which I believe frequently makes them ineffective for DPS in raids.

    What I would suggest is allowing champs to have block in dual wield OR with a 2H weapon, and allowing block to work in all directions. There's no real reason to make block only effective while facing the target anymore. Whereas once it meant using a shield, that's no longer the case. When that idea was dropped, the idea that block only worked if you were facing the mob should have been dropped as well. There's also no reason why block should be limited to 2H weapons.

    Now, before people come in and complain about how blocking behind you doesn't make sense, let me just point out that champs already hit people behind them, and it is in fact possible to block an attack that originates behind you. Plus if blocking an attack from behind doesn't make sense, than neither does evading one from behind.

    Finally, I'd like to point out that the issue of mitigation with less essence slots, and problems with stat derivations (particularly the evade vs block issue) were brought up in the forums (and not addressed) BEFORE Mordor was released. So part of the problem here is not listening to players before releasing new content.

    I definitely think you're right with the issue regarding tact mit. However, there are VERY few situations where capped tact mit is required. Sagrog T2 is pretty much the only fight in mordor where this is required, even the massive tact burst from dulgabeth t2 at 115 can be survived with much lower than cap tact mit. A good champ will run low tact mit, and focus on capping mastery, crit, and high finesse. Regarding Sagrog, if you follow mechanics correctly, it's very easy to avoid tactical damage taken so it's even arguable that high tact mit isn't really even needed here.

    With the regard to b/p/e, champs are already in a much better spot compared to pre HD. In days of old in order to deal high dps, a champ had to use continuous blood rage(applied a DoT to the champ that had increasing tiers based on duration, while also being completely unable to B/P/E while in fervour stance. Dps champs have no reason to need B/P/E. Tank champs should use a 2 hander to be able to block in instances where attacks are b/p/e able. The only reasonable solution to make dual wield more viable in this regard is to give blue line champs a 2x bonus to parry while using dual weapons.

    Champions lost the ability to use a shield when the Rise of Isengard expansion was released. Yes it hurt them, but champ use of shields was already very very situational and blue line was in an even worse spot then than it is today. The problem with a champ using a shield + glory stance was that you did so little damage that you could barely hold aggro if literally any class was attacking your target. Shield champs were essentially given the job of off tanking in the corner. I'd take the aggro buffs they gave blue line champs any day over the increased survivability a shield brings.

    Back to the issue of giving heavy armor classes extra tactical mitigation: these benefits would also further increase the strength of already very strong ranking classes such as guardian and captain. Neither of their ranking lines are in need of any buffs. This would not bring us any closer to achieving a class "balance" as it would further gimp classes such as Warden and Beorning who are already suboptimal tanks due to the significant difference in damage taken due to mitigation differences.
    Last edited by Fresuvi; Apr 23 2018 at 02:37 PM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresuvi View Post
    I definitely think you're right with the issue regarding tact mit. However, there are VERY few situations where capped tact mit is required. Sagrog T2 is pretty much the only fight in mordor where this is required, even the massive tact burst from dulgabeth t2 at 115 can be survived with much lower than cap tact mit. A good champ will run low tact mit, and focus on capping mastery, crit, and high finesse. Regarding Sagrog, if you follow mechanics correctly, it's very easy to avoid tactical damage taken so it's even arguable that high tact mit isn't really even needed here.
    While I agree, the issue is that many people running raids don't realize that, and thus Tmit becomes a requirement to enter the raid even if it's not necessary for the raid. Or to quote someone else, "Tmit is important for melee classes". The point you're really making is it doesn't really make that much of a difference either way in terms of how the game is played. However, it does make a big difference in terms of getting into raids, so I'd suggest making the change because there will be almost no effect except making champs more acceptable to people who play other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresuvi View Post
    With the regard to b/p/e, champs are already in a much better spot compared to pre HD. In days of old in order to deal high dps, a champ had to use continuous blood rage(applied a DoT to the champ that had increasing tiers based on duration, while also being completely unable to B/P/E while in fervour stance. Dps champs have no reason to need B/P/E. Tank champs should use a 2 hander to be able to block in instances where attacks are b/p/e able. The only reasonable solution to make dual wield more viable in this regard is to give blue line champs a 2x bonus to parry while using dual weapons.
    The problem is champs have to be a viable alternative to other classes within a raid. As I mentioned before agility classes get evade, which is unidirectional, and doesn't require any special gear, whereas champs get block which is basically like getting nothing since the vast majority of the time they won't be geared to take advantage of it. Also, if using the right gear, it forces the decision to kite effectively, or block. I'd argue that it probably makes the LEAST sense to give champs an avoidance that only works against mobs in front of them, when they're specifically designed to damage mobs that are behind them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresuvi View Post
    Back to the issue of giving heavy armor classes extra tactical mitigation: these benefits would also further increase the strength of already very strong ranking classes such as guardian and captain. Neither of their ranking lines are in need of any buffs. This would not bring us any closer to achieving a class "balance" as it would further gimp classes such as Warden and Beorning who are already suboptimal tanks due to the significant difference in damage taken due to mitigation differences.
    Well, earlier you argued that Tmit hardly mattered, so I'm assuming it's not really much of an issue. Also, this isn't a thread for fixing Wardens, Beorings, Guardians or Captains. They can either choose to deal with armour's contribution to Tmit differently for those classes, or change the stat derivations to accomplish the same thing without affecting them at all.

  7. #32
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    As far as making Champs valuable in raids again I think possibly the best solution would be to fix rend, then have bosses that spawn adds that require armour removal and AOE to DPS quick enough to succeed. This could mean that adds would buff themselves or the boss after a certain amount of time, or it could mean that adds will spawn regardless of the boss's morale if a group tries to slowly DPS the boss to avoid the need for AOE DPS.

    Even though personally I've always liked playing red line more, I think that yellow line has become the standard for raiding for champs. However, that role has now been virtually eliminated (I check who is in Mordath, so please don't try and tell me otherwise). Considering that has been their traditional role, I think this would be a good way to bring that back.

    Also, I suspect champs are currently too squishy for how much threat they generate when doing AOE. While I personally suspect the issue is generating too much threat, I don't really care that much how the issue is dealt with as long as a champ can AOE without getting destroyed in a raid. If they can't AOE and survive, then their ability to AOE doesn't really matter much. If that's not a problem, then I don't care which method is used to deal with the issue.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I would like to add, that something needs to be done with the might stat in general. Currently agility classes have to many much benefits sats wise, they get crit and physical mastery (same goes for will classes, wth mastery and tact. mitigation.) And might add´s nothing that would be usefull, additional to mastery.
    Maby you could add 1 more mastery point per might (so your are so mighty that your attacks hit harder), or something that I also would like, add a avoidance mitigation to it.

    I mean 2 out of the 3 best endgame DD´s currently are agility classes, with nearly 0 partial bpe problems. This is also a result of stat imbalance between might/agility/will (and partials ) that lead to the big gap we have currently between DPS classes.
    Adding 1.5 points of Pmast for each point of Might would do a good job at balancing out the 1 point of Crit Agility classes get for each 1 point in Agility. The reason I say so, is because if you look at the Northern Stronghold Essences Pmast essences come with 5888 Pmast, whereas Crit rating essences come with only 3858 crit rating. 5888/3858 = 1.53, so if the goal is to get to approximately equivalent derived stats with the same number of essences, then that would be the way to do it.

    I would also suggest that getting to approximately equivalent derived stats is probably a better way to balance classes, than convoluted methods that will require big changes every update.












    Last edited by Int; Apr 24 2018 at 11:11 AM.

  9. #34
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    People who think lack of mastery or tactical mitigation is reason why some class can't get into raid... Just lol. I run with 35% tactical mitigation on some of classes in raid and it's more than enough. Mastery of course is always capped on DPS/some of buffing focused classes. Game should steer away from equal stats if anything. It's ridiculous what they did with vitality already.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    People who think lack of mastery or tactical mitigation is reason why some class can't get into raid... Just lol. I run with 35% tactical mitigation on some of classes in raid and it's more than enough. Mastery of course is always capped on DPS/some of buffing focused classes. Game should steer away from equal stats if anything. It's ridiculous what they did with vitality already.
    I don't know what class you're talking about, but I've had people complain that my Tmit is too low before denying me a spot in a raid. So it is a sticking point for some people running raids (this was already mentioned above), thus becomes a barrier to raiding.


    All classes use the same calculations when it comes to every derived stat. However, they've created a situation where agility classes have a much easier time reaching levels of DPS and BPE than might classes.


    When we're talking about champs (which is the point of this thread), there's a consensus that they're currently underpowered. There's probably like 100 ways this could be fixed, but the issue is that as soon as we have a level increase, most of those ways of "fixing" the issue would turn out to be temporary fixes that require additional fixes.

    Nobody is saying all classes should receive the same stats. However, a fairly equilivant benefit for might and agility classes would make it much easier to keep class balance in future updates.


    Some of the problems we're having right now are because we don't have that. I don't think anyone wants to have to revisit the same issues every time we have an update.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post
    I don't know what class you're talking about, but I've had people complain that my Tmit is too low before denying me a spot in a raid. So it is a sticking point for some people running raids (this was already mentioned above), thus becomes a barrier to raiding.


    All classes use the same calculations when it comes to every derived stat. However, they've created a situation where agility classes have a much easier time reaching levels of DPS and BPE than might classes.


    When we're talking about champs (which is the point of this thread), there's a consensus that they're currently underpowered. There's probably like 100 ways this could be fixed, but the issue is that as soon as we have a level increase, most of those ways of "fixing" the issue would turn out to be temporary fixes that require additional fixes.

    Nobody is saying all classes should receive the same stats. However, a fairly equilivant benefit for might and agility classes would make it much easier to keep class balance in future updates.


    Some of the problems we're having right now are because we don't have that. I don't think anyone wants to have to revisit the same issues every time we have an update.
    People denying you a raid spot due to lack of tact mitigation either have no clue what damage source most of abyss has, or they were just looking for another reason to not take you and that's the one they picked. Sagrog, and Dulgabeth are the only level 115 fights where tact mit really matters at all and in both of those fights a champ could easily get by on tier 2 with 40-50%.
    The main issue with trying to focus on a mitigation based change is that the Devs stated that each class would be getting A FEW changes. So we have to focus on what will make their role more viable.
    So, as champ is a primarily dps based class, they're going to need dps based changes. The easiest way to balance dps would be to fix the imbalance between physical and tactical damage types because of class debuffs and bosses like fingar are already practically immune to all damage types save Fire. Champ rend scaling would be a potential solution to this, but I think we've seen that it doesnt work in the long term.
    Yellow line champ already does pretty solid AOE dps, and is far ahead of any other class in that realm. The issue is that most fights in current content don't favor AOE. The content isn't changing so don't focus on something that cant be changed.
    Red line is in need of the most help and it's mostly due to the way partial avoidance works. Melee dps can have 120k finesse and still be getting 10+% partial avoid while being behind the target. Red champ is really negatively affected by this because they're a very crit reliant class and a partial avoid on big fervour spenders is essentially like throwing the spent fervour in the garbage. Either go back to giving champs skills that make your next attack auto crit, or change the finesse system to make it effect partial avoids.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    People denying you a raid spot due to lack of tact mitigation either have no clue what damage source most of abyss has, or they were just looking for another reason to not take you and that's the one they picked. Sagrog, and Dulgabeth are the only level 115 fights where tact mit really matters at all and in both of those fights a champ could easily get by on tier 2 with 40-50%.
    That's the same thing as what I was saying, so I definitely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    The main issue with trying to focus on a mitigation based change is that the Devs stated that each class would be getting A FEW changes. So we have to focus on what will make their role more viable.
    Well, I'm not going to feel obligated to limit suggestions to an arbitrary number based on an interpretation of a Dev comment. With that being said, it may be of a lower priority than other changes. However, if it remains a barrier to raiding, whether because of real or imagined issues, then fixing other things won't fix that problem. Also, it would require little effort to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    So, as champ is a primarily dps based class, they're going to need dps based changes. The easiest way to balance dps would be to fix the imbalance between physical and tactical damage types because of class debuffs and bosses like fingar are already practically immune to all damage types save Fire.
    This is a very good point in my opinion. At the same time though, there should be a reason to bring champs besides simply DPS. If that's the only reason, then they'll have to directly fight for spots against burgs and hunters who have other benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Champ rend scaling would be a potential solution to this, but I think we've seen that it doesnt work in the long term.
    Yellow line champ already does pretty solid AOE dps, and is far ahead of any other class in that realm. The issue is that most fights in current content don't favor AOE. The content isn't changing so don't focus on something that cant be changed.
    Content can, has, and probably needs to be changed to make the traditional role for champs viable again. Also, I'm not sure what your point is regarding rend. They could make it so it scales better, or simply make it so it removes percents (it has tiers) of armour, so it will always scale well without any problems. If it is set to percents, then it would not be as effective against lower level enemies and enemies with less armour, but I don't think that's a significant issue, and might actually make things a little more fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Red line is in need of the most help and it's mostly due to the way partial avoidance works. Melee dps can have 120k finesse and still be getting 10+% partial avoid while being behind the target. Red champ is really negatively affected by this because they're a very crit reliant class and a partial avoid on big fervour spenders is essentially like throwing the spent fervour in the garbage. Either go back to giving champs skills that make your next attack auto crit, or change the finesse system to make it effect partial avoids.
    Personally I could do without the entire finesse & BPE system. For that matter I think we could do without resistance. However, if they want this system, then they need to be aware of everything it affects, and upkeep the system completely. So I think you have a good point there, and yes, red line is a crit reliant class.

    I originally built a red line champ, and that's how I enjoy playing. However, I came to realize that the role champs were playing in raids was doing AOE, so I built a yellow line. Lately they're making content that pretty much eliminates the role of yellow line champs, so that makes me wonder what (if any) future they have planned for champions. It seems to me the simplest solution is to go back to making yellow line champs an important role in raids even though I'd prefer to play in red.

    In abyss I'm usually in red line because yellow is so bad for that raid. It's like they designed the raid to make yellow line champs obsolete. If their idea is to make red line the preferred line for champs for raiding, then great, but they'll have to work quite a bit on red line. If they're going to make yellow effective in raids again, then they need to make some changes to the raids.

    Basically some of our disagreements regarding what to do come from not really knowing what the developer's priorities are. Perhaps, not knowing, it's best to show a variety of solutions in the hope that one will line up with their priorities. I tend to suspect that if they're going to give champs a role in raiding again, then it will have to do with their yellow line. You appear to disagree. I don't think either of us can say for sure, though it would be nice to know so the suggestions could be focused.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post

    In abyss I'm usually in red line because yellow is so bad for that raid. It's like they designed the raid to make yellow line champs obsolete. If their idea is to make red line the preferred line for champs for raiding, then great, but they'll have to work quite a bit on red line. If they're going to make yellow effective in raids again, then they need to make some changes to the raids.

    Basically some of our disagreements regarding what to do come from not really knowing what the developer's priorities are. Perhaps, not knowing, it's best to show a variety of solutions in the hope that one will line up with their priorities. I tend to suspect that if they're going to give champs a role in raiding again, then it will have to do with their yellow line. You appear to disagree. I don't think either of us can say for sure, though it would be nice to know so the suggestions could be focused.
    I think you've come to the same conclusion as I have. However, the reason I think Red line is more valuable is due to the fact that single target dps in boss fights is always needed, aoe as we've seen can be very situational. Additionally, prior to HD there was a time when someone saw a yellow line champ and wouldn't bring them into a group because other than specific AOE only situations with 6 or more targets(very very rare i.e. gortheron t2c, saruman t2c, mumaks t2c), red line was better for both aoe cleave and single target.

    The reason I think they need to fix and focus on red line is due to the fact that the lore and what drew me to the champion wasn't because he's an aoe focused machine. The champion is a Berserker class who dives into the fray with no regard for his defenses. The HD changes that attempted to separate the champion into an AOE OR Single Target focused combat style. This doesnt fit the lore, nor is it conducive to making the class viable in raids. The champion should be a berserker player who sacrifices his defenses to maximize his destructive potential.

  14. #39
    Why are you running red line in the RAID? Rent still boost the RAID DPS by a okish amount and your own DPS is the same (sometimes higher) compared to red line. But i also hope they bring red back to a true berserk with high DPS but decreased survivalbility. Personaly i find yellow crossed with red way better roration wise, so pls don't forgett to keep yellow relevant, like in 3+ target situations.
    Gertes

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Why are you running red line in the RAID? Rent still boost the RAID DPS by a okish amount and your own DPS is the same (sometimes higher) compared to red line. But i also hope they bring red back to a true berserk with high DPS but decreased survivalbility. Personaly i find yellow crossed with red way better roration wise, so pls don't forgett to keep yellow relevant, like in 3+ target situations.
    Yeah, the few times I've been able to join the Abyss T2C, they want my champ spamming debuffs (Rend, Horn of Champions, Horn of Gondor, Blade Wall Aggressive Exchange) along with whatever DPS I can add. If minis and captains add their DPS buffs, champs can have a halfway decent DPS output on yellow line. I still think that the LI legacies for the Rend and Horn debuffs should be scaled up properly, which should help champs be more desired for both debuffs and DPS.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    I think you've come to the same conclusion as I have. However, the reason I think Red line is more valuable is due to the fact that single target dps in boss fights is always needed, aoe as we've seen can be very situational. Additionally, prior to HD there was a time when someone saw a yellow line champ and wouldn't bring them into a group because other than specific AOE only situations with 6 or more targets(very very rare i.e. gortheron t2c, saruman t2c, mumaks t2c), red line was better for both aoe cleave and single target.

    The reason I think they need to fix and focus on red line is due to the fact that the lore and what drew me to the champion wasn't because he's an aoe focused machine. The champion is a Berserker class who dives into the fray with no regard for his defenses. The HD changes that attempted to separate the champion into an AOE OR Single Target focused combat style. This doesnt fit the lore, nor is it conducive to making the class viable in raids. The champion should be a berserker player who sacrifices his defenses to maximize his destructive potential.
    I think we're seeing a lot of the same things, but making different guesses as to what the devs will find an acceptable solution. If they find your line of reasoning for red line compelling then I'm totally cool with that.

    I will point out though, that a funny thing about red line is that it's healing is far superior to yellow line. So I find it's less squishy.
    The direction I imagine them going with raiding champs would be bringing back their AOE/rend (yellow line) importance. It looks like you're saying is they should be burst damage specialists (and you give compelling reasoning).

    That made me have an interesting thought. Maybe the smartest thing to do would be to do BOTH. Fix yellow line, and make rend a big deal again, AND fix red line but make them great at FINISHING mobs. That way Champs could be revelent in basically any raid, but you'd have to swich lines depending on the raid (likely requiring no changes to the raids themselves).

    My understanding with Burgs (I don't play one, so my appolgies if I'm completely wrong) is that they are pretty great at at initial DPS. Making red line champs great at finishing DPS would make sense (to me) with what they already have. We already have remorseless strikes, which we can build up the crit chance for, we have Champion's duel that tiers up our DPS against a single target, we have merciful strike which is designed to finish off an opponent while eating up all our fervour, we have killing spree which restores 10% of morale on every kill (if we make the killing shot), and Red Haze which gives us back our fervor if we make the kill.

    So, (I'm excited about this idea, but it isn't fully thought out), what if the point of red line for raids, was that at a certain point in a mobs morale, they pop a skill (let's say CBR, possibly with a shorter cooldown), and that lowers our defences, but boosts remorseless strikes (possibly 100% crit and higher damage), merciful strikes (this may need offhand damage) and killing spree heal for a certain amount of time. So if you're plaing the red line champ right in a raid, you rush in at the right moment, take a bunch of damage, finish off the mob, then get a big heal from your kill.

    If you time CBR too early though, you're screwed. You'll take too much damage, get killed, won't get to use merciful strikes, and won't get the big heal.

    If you time CBR too late, then you're not contributing meaningful DPS.

    The idea would be that red line could deal massive DPS, while being limited because it can't take a lot of DPS while dealing massive DPS. Then it wouldn't directly compete with hunters or burgs (again, if I understand burgs correctly) for DPS roles.

    As I imagine it working (and I admit this idea isn't fully thought out), a raid that favors red line for champs might do really well by having burgs deliver the first blow, and champs delivering finishing blows. Some of the bosses are already difficult to finish, but if you kept your red champ alive for the end, they could help burn through it (espically with captain oathbreakers).

    This might also help solve some of the problems with mobs who can one shot melee dps classes with AOE. The problem being that melee dps classes can't really contribute in those situations. However, if you had a burg go in and pop off the first shot, then run away, then had a champ run in for a finishing shot towards the end, they could still both contribute.

    I haven't really had the opportunity to think about how this would affect every aspect of the game, so I won't be really surprised if the solution is a bit more complex than that.
    Last edited by Int; Apr 27 2018 at 11:47 AM.

  17. #42
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    Here's a summary of what I think should minimally be done (may edit):

    General Changes:
    - Add an additional 1.5 points of Pmast for each point of might (9.5 instead of 8). This will almost balance out the crit rating agility DPS classes receive from agility.
    - Make it so block can work whether you're facing the target or not, and regardless of whatever weapon you're using. This will do a good job balancing out the evade agility classes get (right now block is pretty much useless, because even a blue line champ is better off kiting than facing their target and blocking).
    - Increase the Tmit champs get from armour. 24% to 26% might work instead of 20%. I'd start there, and see how it works out. As is, we have to basically nerf our DPS to get Tmit. Other heavy classes might also benefit in terms of gaining DPS, but if that's an issue, then do something different with those classes.


    Yellow line
    - Change rend into a percent armour debuff. Because of the big jump in armour, the rend debuff was essentially nerfed. So that we don't have to do this over, and over, it should probably be a percent armour debuff. This will also make it more useful against bosses and mobs who have a lot of armour, and less useful on landscape mobs. I think that's a fine tradeoff.


    Red line (these changes should make red line a berserker again, and should make red champs useful in raids where yellow ones aren't useful)
    - Change Champion's duel so that for every 3 seconds:
    Minus 10% run speed (no change)
    Plus 5% incoming damage (from group)
    Minus 3% outgoing damage (to everyone besides the champ, this would be more in line with the berserker concept)
    - Make True heroics apply a debuff to the enemy instead of an AOE buff. This is the single target line, AOE buff is more appropriate when multiple members are fighting multiple targets.
    - Make Controlled Burn boost Emboldened Blades crit chance by an additional +20% (up to +70% max), make it cause the next merciful strike to devastate, and make it so it causes an armour debuff on the champion that tiers up every 5 seconds for 20 seconds, or until the fight is over.


    Blue line:
    - Change Sudden Defence to a percent of morale
    - Change Bracing Attack to a percent of morale
    - "Horn of champions: while traited blue acts as a force taunt" (Rakanor's idea), or in blue line Champion's Challenge has a 20s cooldown (Guards, Wardens, Beorings and Captains have at least 1 forced taunt with a 20s CD or better)
    - Give us something on our LIs to significantly increase our max power for blue line. Power is not an issue in the other two lines, but would increase our healing in blue line from Dire Need.
    - Blue line probably also needs a lot of other buffs, but it's difficult to look at what we have and think about how it should be.
    - Move +10% attack duration and Reduces target's Movement speed by 50% from the red and yellow lines of True Heroics, to the blue line.


    I think these things would help Champions scale better in the future, and help them fit into important roles. Imbalances in how stats are derived are going to keep showing up as problems over and over unless they're fixed. They could be fixed with skills/traits or whatever within the class that also scale well, but I'm suggesting a simple solution to an ongoing problem.


    The yellow line change is simply to make rend scale better.


    The red line changes are to restore it's role as a berserker, and give it a meaningful role in raids where yellow line champs aren't very useful. Swapping the incoming and outgoing damage on Champion's duel makes more sense for a line that's supposed to increase single target DPS. Removing the damage protection from the champion makes sense for a berserker. Changing True Heroics to a single target debuff makes sense for a single target line. The changes I've suggested to Controlled Burn would truly make the champ a berserker. It would allow a short burst of dps at the cost of defenses.


    The suggestions for blue line are mostly to make skills scale better, allow them to taunt a minimally acceptable amount (required by ToDT). Allowing a tradeoff on the blue line LI so they can get more power would make it so players could move into blue line more effectively without having a different set of armour. Lastly moving the debuffs from True Heroics would allow champs to kite enemies better while in blue line.

    The increases I've suggested are to avoid the need for future fixes and either are to bring champs in line with other classes they compete for spots with, or come at a cost. The rest of the changes are to bring the class lines into a better alignment with the role they're supposed to play.

    I think if these, or similar changes, aren't made, then it will just make more work in the future. I'm not saying this will fix every problem. However, I suspect there will be less problems, and less work will need to be done in the future if these changes are made.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post
    Then it wouldn't directly compete with hunters or burgs (again, if I understand burgs correctly) for DPS roles.
    Red champ is a single target DPS class. It should compete with the other single target DPS classes for single target DPS roles. Similarly any other AoE DPS traitline should compete with yellow champion. If you want a world in which no class competes with each other you're going to have to whittle LOTRO down to the point where only ~6 trait trees are left.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Red champ is a single target DPS class. It should compete with the other single target DPS classes for single target DPS roles. Similarly any other AoE DPS traitline should compete with yellow champion. If you want a world in which no class competes with each other you're going to have to whittle LOTRO down to the point where only ~6 trait trees are left.
    Yep, considering what they bring on the table, should be toe to toe with hunter.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Yep, considering what they bring on the table, should be toe to toe with hunter.
    Arguably champions potential dps(think of a training dummy parse standing still 0 movement) should be higher than a Hunter. I say this because in order to bring a champion to a raid as a single target dps spec, they have to deal with more garbage melee mechanics, take more damage, move more to avoid said damage, etc. Champ had the highest single target dps of any class during Orthanc and raids still only brought 1 champ(competitive kins didn't bring them at all on some bosses). Raids are rarely melee friendly so why bring one unless they have higher potential damage than the ranged dps. It's not like red line champ brings much utility other than corruption removal so they need to be on par or better than ranged dps.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaara908776 View Post
    Arguably champions potential dps(think of a training dummy parse standing still 0 movement) should be higher than a Hunter. I say this because in order to bring a champion to a raid as a single target dps spec, they have to deal with more garbage melee mechanics, take more damage, move more to avoid said damage, etc. Champ had the highest single target dps of any class during Orthanc and raids still only brought 1 champ(competitive kins didn't bring them at all on some bosses). Raids are rarely melee friendly so why bring one unless they have higher potential damage than the ranged dps. It's not like red line champ brings much utility other than corruption removal so they need to be on par or better than ranged dps.
    I tend to agree, my viewpoint is just heavily biased by historical things in this game of how it used to be. However Champions should be the best ST DPS class by logical class design of melee/ranged factor.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    I tend to agree, my viewpoint is just heavily biased by historical things in this game of how it used to be. However Champions should be the best ST DPS class by logical class design of melee/ranged factor.
    I no longer even play the class because I despise the way Turbine changed the class by separating AOE and single target dps with the trait trees. So, I'm not really biased towards or against champs. It's just sad to see that my Warden, who was primarily designed as a tank class, can do more dps single target than a champ. I primarily tank now but from a conceptual and class design standpoint, when a class says, "damage" is its primary role in the class creation tooltip, it should probably do more damage than a class that says, "defense", or "support". I.e. Warden/Burg

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Int View Post
    Here's a summary of what I think should minimally be done (may edit):
    Overall some good ideas.

    General Changes
    - Making changes to Might would affect the class at all levels, so this is unlikely. Champs are strong enough below level 106.
    - What about increasing the critical rating contribution of Fate? Currently, I'm using some crit rating essences to get to the cap, so if we could raise that contribution to require fewer to hit the cap, that could free up space for other stats, while not making the class too OP, since Fate usually isn't included with Might gear outside of Mordor.
    - I also advocate for increasing the Horn of Gondor Physical Mit debuff imbued LI legacy to better scale to Mordor stat levels. I'm learning that this is a very underused skill by champs (at least the others I've played with lately), but this can help make all attacks more effective.

    Yellow line
    - Agreed on Rend.
    - I might also propose changing the Exchange of Blows melee damage imbued LI legacy to a new buff to the Champion's Advantage trait by increasing the chance of bypassing mitigations and the magnitude of the bypass. The amount of damage output by Exchange of Blows is usually so low that I don't use it as a DPS skill. It's more of incoming damage reduction skill, which isn't greatly affected by the imbued legacy. I'm not sure how feasible improving a more passive trait with an imbued legacy is, but this would also help improve damage while not having an impact on players under level 100.

    Red Line
    - Agree with all of it
    - As with yellow line, red line really could use a way to debuff mitigations. There's several ways to boost damage and critical chance, but even when delivering critical damage, red spec does not deliver enough damage on T2 right now. My experience on the first boss fight in Seregost is that non-crit, non-bpe damage is still far to weak, and even crits of the best skills may only deliver 50k damage. Right now, only Devastating Strike can bypass mitigations. Maybe a timed mitigation debuff when Devastating Strike hits for critical damage?

    Blue Line
    - Agree with all. I've been experimenting with Blue Line and the self-heals are all far too weak, and the threat skills are too few with too long CDs.
    - There may be an opportunity to add or change some weapon LI legacies to help blue-line champs. Like changing the Hamstring damage legacy (which I've never seen anyone use) to add some BPE rating to Adamant or give a BPE rating increase its own legacy.


    Overall, I don't think damage values are low, its just that mitigations are so strong that damage is too low. Against level 100 beasts (so basically no ability to mitigate damage), my DPS is ridiculous (I hit bears in level 100 Sari Surma for 161k damage per blow on yellow line), while non-crit, non-BPE attacks against T2 bosses usually go for less than 10k damage. So anything that helps reduce or bypass mitigations will go a long way to help champs.

  24. #49
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    Dec 2016
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    409
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardollas View Post
    Overall some good ideas.

    General Changes
    - Making changes to Might would affect the class at all levels, so this is unlikely. Champs are strong enough below level 106.
    - What about increasing the critical rating contribution of Fate? Currently, I'm using some crit rating essences to get to the cap, so if we could raise that contribution to require fewer to hit the cap, that could free up space for other stats, while not making the class too OP, since Fate usually isn't included with Might gear outside of Mordor.
    - I also advocate for increasing the Horn of Gondor Physical Mit debuff imbued LI legacy to better scale to Mordor stat levels. I'm learning that this is a very underused skill by champs (at least the others I've played with lately), but this can help make all attacks more effective.

    Yellow line
    - Agreed on Rend.
    - I might also propose changing the Exchange of Blows melee damage imbued LI legacy to a new buff to the Champion's Advantage trait by increasing the chance of bypassing mitigations and the magnitude of the bypass. The amount of damage output by Exchange of Blows is usually so low that I don't use it as a DPS skill. It's more of incoming damage reduction skill, which isn't greatly affected by the imbued legacy. I'm not sure how feasible improving a more passive trait with an imbued legacy is, but this would also help improve damage while not having an impact on players under level 100.

    Red Line
    - Agree with all of it
    - As with yellow line, red line really could use a way to debuff mitigations. There's several ways to boost damage and critical chance, but even when delivering critical damage, red spec does not deliver enough damage on T2 right now. My experience on the first boss fight in Seregost is that non-crit, non-bpe damage is still far to weak, and even crits of the best skills may only deliver 50k damage. Right now, only Devastating Strike can bypass mitigations. Maybe a timed mitigation debuff when Devastating Strike hits for critical damage?

    Blue Line
    - Agree with all. I've been experimenting with Blue Line and the self-heals are all far too weak, and the threat skills are too few with too long CDs.
    - There may be an opportunity to add or change some weapon LI legacies to help blue-line champs. Like changing the Hamstring damage legacy (which I've never seen anyone use) to add some BPE rating to Adamant or give a BPE rating increase its own legacy.


    Overall, I don't think damage values are low, its just that mitigations are so strong that damage is too low. Against level 100 beasts (so basically no ability to mitigate damage), my DPS is ridiculous (I hit bears in level 100 Sari Surma for 161k damage per blow on yellow line), while non-crit, non-BPE attacks against T2 bosses usually go for less than 10k damage. So anything that helps reduce or bypass mitigations will go a long way to help champs.
    I think you make some good points, and I don't disagree with anything in particular. I was focused on doing the minimum to get the class to a point where it's easier to maintain. It appears they're going to go is a different direction though. Also, the point of increasing might's contribution to physical mastery in my suggestion was to offset the critical rating agility classes get from agility. The number I suggested would be slightly lower than required to allow agility and might classes to get to the same physical mastery and critical rating using the same number of essences.

    I think you have a point that champions are fine at lower levels, however agility classes would actually still wind up with a better physical mastery/crit rating mix at low levels.

 

 
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