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  1. #1
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    Christopher Tolkien speaks about "The Silmarillion" A Detailed survey and Movies

    A star shines on the hour of our meeting,

    Christopher Tolkien speaks about "The Silmarillion" A Detailed survey/Analysis ~ Plus the very valid and his entirely in essence understandable points in which he completely disapproved and "turned his head away"

    A priceless incomparable video recorded possibly in year of 1995 . C. Tolkien the official executor of J.R.R. Tolkien's estate, and the interpreter of his father's unpublished works. The man who was able to accomplish nigh impossible task.

    At this point Christopher Tolkien was secure in the knowledge that his father legacy would remain forever in book form which "should have been" If you asked me the same question a decade ago, I would look declare you absurd and even insane, but I can comprehend his son and enormous burden and tasks he had to carry on and execute. Besides his father, he was the only person with deepest,most insightful and comprehensive understanding. Let us put it simply; When you devote your entire heart,soul and mind to one particular task and "Secondary" world you shall become the absolute master in every possible way imaginable and suddenly bare witness to complete transformation and even jest,mockery,absurdity and entirely false interpretation on the certain places,characters or even fundamental tales.

    For example the shortest answer possible would be ~ Total Destruction/Ruination.

    Visualise yourself devoting your entire life decades to finish the enormous work and then someone completely vanquishes on the big screen. You realise such a fact in a fraction of second.

    As well as the following; Christopher and the others with with him, are more than any others behind the defining and the functioning of the entire "legendarium" concept. ~ Tolkien's legendarium is the term for the entirety of J. R. R. Tolkien's mythopoetic writing.

    The statements you are about to read could be slightly "odd" A mild and soft to put it, but do try read them until the end, They are ultimately the opinions ~

    The films are cringeworthy as films - even if you had never read the books

    .............................. ..

    1) None of the plot changes in LOTR facilitate the leap from the medium of novel to film and many are pointless acts of butchery that add nothing. What is the point of having Elrond appear in ROTK and say Arwen is dying because of the power of Mordor? It is pointless departures from the plot of the novels. This is not a purist fanatic of Tolkein talking - i would approve script changes which helped tell the story clearly and make it better for film. But that is not what happened here, all through the trilogy. It was ghastly. Why even use Tolkein if you are going to do stupid things like have a pointless interlude where Aragorn falls off his horse and is nearly killed and then picked up by his horse... All not in the book. This long, boring sequence adds nothing and just takes time away from actually telling the quality tale Tolkein came up with.

    I couldn't even watch The Hobbit having learned beforehand of the liberties taken there.

    2) Clumsy script. The pacing is all wrong. The script writing is almost vaudevillian in its awfulness. For example, Aragorn and co stand at the gates of Morder having said their plan is to draw the eye away from Frodo. Cut to Frodo lying on the ground before a fake looking tower having theatrically fallen in melodramatic slo-mo. Sam then says the eye is looking away "something is drawing it away". Because we the audience are so stupid and have to have the plan spelt out to us twice?? Poor Sean Astin was lumped with the worst lines of the film. He did his best but you can't turn #### into gold.

    3) Set design: horrible. The mines of moria looked silly in size way out of proportion, grim and not cleverly crafted as the book describes. The entrance to mount doom in Mordor looked the same design wise - as master carvings of the dwarves. Gondor looked like the whole thing was smashed to pieces in the opening few shots of battle only to have Gandalf say later: the first circle has been breached get back to the next level

    4) Costumes and props: appalling. Gandalf's hat looked like it was from an Easter Show bag. Arwen's necklace likewise - central prop of the film and it's made of silver plastic.

    5) Battle scenes: possibly the worst element in a rich field of mangulation. CGI looked fake and stupid. Cave trolls invented everywhere looking like I am playing a '90s playstation game. The elf legolas repeatedly uses his bow and arrow as a close range combat weapon which is fake and not believable. He also does stupid CGI stunts like an adolescent comedy. None of the battle scenes looked even remotely believable. The usual sin was depicting catastrophic destruction in the first 2 seconds then we are expected to suspend disbelief that the battle can rage on for hours after. Like the horses of the rohirrim running into the giant 4 tusked elephants.

    I won't even comment the Hobbit movies, The Ultimate jest.

    Stupid excess of villains looked totally unbelievable. Yes it is fantasy but good fantasy makes you believe in the imaginary world it creates. This fails.

    6) Politically correct altering of villains. Orcs speak with an english cockney accent in the films instead of the more arabic/turkish sounding alliteration of the orcish in the novel - and yet Peter Jackson slavishly reproduces the Finnish-inspired elvish tongue. Not half obvious. The orc swords are also changed from scimitars in the novels to have right-angled crooks as if they were half a square. Apart from being absurd it seems a transparent attempt to take the tale away from any semi-mythic rendering of the reconquista that echoes through the novels. Another cultural voice silenced to make the movie flat and one-dimensional. Goodbye artistic resonance.

    7) Music: boring and obvious. Instead of enhancing the mood it was like being browbeaten. Here comes the Olde Saxon strains for Theoden... It is Theoden here everyone get it? Lets repeat those same few bars 10x. It was about as subtle as the script....

    9) Those stupid sepia tones. Why film it with such distorted colours? The fairytale "feel" is way too overdone

    the only good things about this jackson trilogy were:

    A) The short scene where Gandalf rides his cart past a glowering hobbit in FOTR
    B) the first appearance of the black rider where the hobbits hide (and even this was tainted by pantomime obviousness of proximity - 'look out he's right behind you!')
    C) the balrog

    That is all. Even the ents were tainted.

    We should NOT be thankful that trilogy was made. Lots of money was wasted and if it hadn't been made the field would have been cleared for a director and scriptwriter with a bit of talent and sensitivity to create a real classic. This is what we are now stuck with for the next decade or two.

    What you've read was not written by me, but I must admit I agree with most of the points.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    A mighty virtue of his son was his incredible determination and decisiveness and most of all the extraordinary resilience. He as was his father , same old modest man, turning way from glory,fame and even most powerful temptation the money. Acquisition of wealth were never their primary motives.

    What you are about to read is incredibly important ~

    Christopher Tolkien’s feeling are much closer to reflective and sad than to anything hateful. The core of his concerns say nothing about the movies themselves, but rather about the impossibility of our current culture and the money-driven Hollywood film industry representing the level of meaning that J. R. R. Tolkien offered the world. Here is the core of his view:

    Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed by the absurdity of our time," Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has gone too far for me. Such commercialisation has reduced the esthetic and philosophical impact of this creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away.

    ~ Majority of the Tolkien fans and fans of Legendarium have not grasp nor they have explored the vastness of his creation. I dare to say not many are willing to even think or watch/read his letters ,By Orome! Some do not want to venture to such a level of complexity, but its inevitable ultimately if you desire for precious knowledge.

    The core of his concerns say nothing about the movies themselves, but rather about the impossibility of our current culture and the money-driven Hollywood film industry representing the level of meaning that J. R. R. Tolkien offered the world

    There cannot be a greater insight nor accurate statement other the words of his son. Listening to the C.Tolkien is the reflection of J.R.R. Tolkien. He is largely drawing what he once said fashioned in his own unique way. Father and Son ~ Literally the one.

    J.R.R. Tolkien clearly felt that the media that show things to the eyes - theater, movie, and so forth - present a very different psychological function than the written (or spoken) word. For those who live in the world of writing, reading, and telling tales, the listener or reader's visual imagination engaged in the process of listening or reading. Tolkien believed that no dramatic presentation would work for the Lord of the Rings because it would supplant the reader's act of imagination with the creator's (director, costumer's, special effects) interpretation. (This view that visual arts do not engage people's creative function the way the written and spoken word does has now been substantiated in psychological research. See the works of Joseph Chilton Pearce and the book Five Arguments for the Elimination of Television.) Which is absolutely true.


    C. Tolkien speaks about "The Silmarillion" is but a fragment of the Documentary: Link;

    A super rare and quite possibly the only video interview with both of his sons and the wife of Christopher Tolkien,Baillie Tolkien (née Klass), who edited J. R. R. Tolkien's The Father Christmas Letters for posthumous publication.

    What can we learn and discover from the video?

    Before watching the video please understand that Christopher’s views grew from his father’s views. You are technically hearing the Genius himself.

    Keep in mind the full Documentary is very complex and might be quite bewildering and difficult to watch for a beginner an even Average Tolkien Nerd/Fan, It is absolutely essential if you wish to gain great knowledge and core ideas behind the entire mythology.

    ~ The Primary goal of the Elves is art not the power, where men have taken the solution of power, the Domination, Tyranny. Elves desire for art, Men for power. Elves were viewed as Men without flaws, Elves where in the essence Men {we} before the fall, I have stated it is complex, There are multiple subjects which related to the current assertion. One must closely watch the full documentary

    ~ The Silmarillion was the primary {central} work of his fathers's Secondary world , Secondary world being the world of Arda, our World. C. Tolkien undergo the monumental task of editing and focused on fishing is ardouros task. J. R. R. Tolkien wrote a great deal of material connected to the Middle-earth legendarium that was not published in his lifetime. He had originally intended to publish The Silmarillion along with The Lord of the Rings, and parts of it were in a finished state when he died in 1973, but the project was incomplete. Tolkien once referred to his son as his "chief critic and collaborator", and Christopher Tolkien organized the masses of his father's unpublished writings, some of them written on odd scraps of paper a half-century earlier.

    ~ There were several Silmarillions and people often mistake and as he said , was in a way miss-leading.

    ~ The first accounts and fragments of the "Elder days" date back more than century ago. The Book of last tales, some parts were written in the trenches during shell-fire {1916} World War I Battle of the Some. That was the First Silmarillion although he did not call it that.

    ~ His later manner of writing was more remote and exalted. It is more immediate. It's even funny. It is written in extraordinarily ,flowerly, conciously Archaic manner which he {C.Tolkien} finds very attractive, So do I.

    ~ The Silmarillion was by far the earlier work of the Tolkien long before the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings

    ~ Great stories,Great Legends in undeveloped forms which were inspiration from him through his life, F example Lay of Beren and Luthien,Tragedy of Turin Turambar

    ~ The World War horrors and terrible experiences were in the essence the ultimate inspiration and driving force which ultimately fuelled and Motivated Tolkien to write his tales,great stories and Legends

    ~ Another Silmarillion was already in existence by around 1930. It is more different and chronicle. It was not finished. The Book of Lost Tales was finished. The 1930 Silmarillion was finished, Yes indeed it could sound a bit confusing ,but if you watch it closely and multiple times if neded you'll get a grip of it Or let me explain

    ~ 1930 Silmarillion existed, but it is very different, is that exact Silmarillion which would be edited and released 45years+ after Authors death, C.Tolkien himself said it was not finished. It would be only decades later.
    Book of Lost Tales ?aka 1930 Silmarilion ,but very imoporant to note a completely enclosed myth not presupposing any later ages

    ~ At that stage The Hobbit had no connection with it

    ~ in 1964 Tolkien said in the letter; By the time Hobbit appeared in 1937,The Silmarillion in coherent form,The Hobbit was not intended to have anything to do with it,I had the habbit where my children was too young and telling orally sometimes of writting down "children's stories" for their private amusement the Hobbit was intended to be one of them. It had no necessary connection with the mythology by which he mans The Silmarillion,but naturally became attracted towards this dominant construction in my mind causing the tale to become larger and more heroic as it proceeded even so it could rarely stand quite apart.

    Indeed its quite let Me say; Sorrowful, silly,disappointing that The Hobbit have had such an incredible impact and success over Silmarillion which was by far more imortant,essential and crucial work of J.R.R. Tolkien, There is an audio recording and another letter in which he said that Hobbit was only an jest,amusement , his true love and passion where the Elder days, the First age of Middle-Earth, Great stories,legends which he never personally finalised and the fact of people's inability to fully comprehend the vastness,greatness and complexity of the Silmarillion, even so to read it , becuase apparently it is too difficult. The Silmarillion was by far the true Masterpiece. Again do not be confused, To put it simply the tales which date back thousands of years before the events of the Third and even Second age, which precede The hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

    ~ The famous names such as the Misty Mountains,Mirkwood,the Great River of Wilderland,They began with the Hobbit and no necessary association at all with the mythology as it existed at that time

    ~ The Lord of the Rings was began as the sequel to the Hobbit,but this dominant construction in my mind as he said attracted everything into it,attracted the Hobbit and still more of course, attracted the Lord of the Rings. It bomes in the most complex fashion the sequel to the hobbit and heavily involved in The Silmarillion.

    The Silmarillion is essential to read and a "must have" It is inevitably intertwined in the essence in every other tale which is related to Legendarium.

    ~ Very important to learn ~ It was the last version of The Silmarillion that he couldn't finish. Tolkien's perfectionism,lack of time. Too tired too large of a task. Tolkien deeply wanted to finish the last version, but he could not. He was too tired,it was too complex and he was indeed old,even for him. The next statement is even more complex. He could not finish the Silmarillion that would stand in relation to Lord of the Rings. It was inevitable that the Lord of the Rings must alter the Silmarilion{It took 12 years for Tolkien to write Lord of the Rings} because having once been an enclosed myth with the beginning and the end it now has the vast extension and in the Lord of the Rings there are major figures who come out of the Elder days out of the Primeval world of the Silmarillion. Chielf among them ,Galadriel so great deal of writing back would have to be done ,but my father being who he was would never be a simple thing because when Galadriel enters out of the Lord of the Rings into the world of the Elves ,new stories begin right up to the end of his life Galadriel's position in the Elder days were still being developed so this was a major problem.

    ~ There were deeper problems. In his later years he had become detached in a way from the old legends,Turin,Beren and so on.. They were immensely important to him ,but they were things that they were like the legends of the Real world which he could observe and study and he became more and more interested in metaphysical aspects of his secondary invention. We can simply put it he was "trapped" between primary and secondary world, In case you did not know, the word Metaphysics , is a branch of philosophy exploring the fundamental questions For example ~ including the nature of concepts like being, existence, and reality. He could have been in the way obsessed ,too attached, way focused which drained him a lot of his time,energy. He was in certain way easily distracted, His fame in later years of life worsen it to the point in which he had to move way ,change his address and phone number.

    ~ His Secondary invention above all with the nature of the Elves because it is absolutely fundamental to whole conception is that men are mortal and Elves are immortal and as he declared and correctly declared the fundamental underpinning concern of all his work was death ~ Incredibly important the subject is connected to his personal reflections and experiences in World War I. That was the Catalyst to everything. The Death, Death he witnessed ,death of his mother,close friends and his near death experiences,horrors,torment of war and so on..

    ~ The intolerable fact and nature of the elves getting right back to the book of the lost tales was above they were immortal they were not naturally destined to die,they could be killed because they had bodies they were not in their nature destined to die ,whereas men are of nature destined to spend their short while in the world , was the life of the Elves conterminous with the life of Arda ,being the Elvish world for the World, Our World in which Middle-Earth was apart.

    ~ In his later years he became involved in profound attempt to determine the nature of an immortal being who is nonetheless incarnate and possesses a body, In turn was beginning to develop new stories within The Silmarillion and I think the whole thing simply became too large ,too complex to have so precise , to attempt to impose her precise metaphysical explanation on it,It was perhaps the task for a younger man the flame began to die down and he hadn't had the energy left that would be needed for such a huge transformation

    ~ Some people who knew him well have said that he really did not want to finish the Silmarillion ,suggesting even that to finish the Silmarillion would be finishing his life, I personally don't think that at all, I think that there is no real evidence for it,i think he deeply wanted to finish it,but he could not, too large , too large a task,to tired.

    The end after showing his final picture.The Metaphysical explanation was the most complex subject, Tolkien's nature and the way he fashioned and visualised his own Secondary world was impossible in that stage of his life. The flame begin to die out. Tolkien was severely traumatised by horrors,decay ,diseases and death of World of War I and in my opinion created a beings that would be affected in these particular areas. The Elves were and still are perfected men, men before the downfall. Why the death? Death have had unquestionably the profound deep striking effect on his mind. By the Age of 18 all but one of his close friend died,he experienced and felt the absolute carnage,torment,loss,sorrow, The physical,emotional and mental anguish which were ironically his ultimate transformation. Tolkien was the Perfectionist, his mind worked in way we cannot perceive, by the time he wanted to finish it ,he was too drained,sapped away. The fire did not burns so potent as it was in his Elder days, neverthless his son completed seemingly impossible task.

    I Thank thee with ally <3 for reading the entire thread I shall update it quite possibly in the following days and fix any errors/typo

    The Thread was written to honor Christopher Tolkien and his father and his Secondary world, my world as well in which I now honestly cannot imagine my primary world, tis insane I know But I love it. Thanks for their "Insanity" but more deep ,pure profound overwhelming love. The Flame imperishable, we have Priceless books,incomparable Fantasy realm and our beautiful game, The Lord of the Rings Online!

    Kind Regards

    Vanyalantriell

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyaerunanethiel View Post
    A star shines on the hour of our meeting,

    Christopher Tolkien speaks about "The Silmarillion" A Detailed survey/Analysis ~ Plus the very valid and his entirely in essence understandable points in which he completely disapproved and "turned his head away"

    A priceless incomparable video recorded possibly in year of 1995 . C. Tolkien the official executor of J.R.R. Tolkien's estate, and the interpreter of his father's unpublished works. The man who was able to accomplish nigh impossible task.

    At this point Christopher Tolkien was secure in the knowledge that his father legacy would remain forever in book form which "should have been" If you asked me the same question a decade ago, I would look declare you absurd and even insane, but I can comprehend his son and enormous burden and tasks he had to carry on and execute. Besides his father, he was the only person with deepest,most insightful and comprehensive understanding. Let us put it simply; When you devote your entire heart,soul and mind to one particular task and "Secondary" world you shall become the absolute master in every possible way imaginable and suddenly bare witness to complete transformation and even jest,mockery,absurdity and entirely false interpretation on the certain places,characters or even fundamental tales.

    For example the shortest answer possible would be ~ Total Destruction/Ruination.

    Visualise yourself devoting your entire life decades to finish the enormous work and then someone completely vanquishes on the big screen. You realise such a fact in a fraction of second.

    As well as the following; Christopher and the others with with him, are more than any others behind the defining and the functioning of the entire "legendarium" concept. ~ Tolkien's legendarium is the term for the entirety of J. R. R. Tolkien's mythopoetic writing.

    The statements you are about to read could be slightly "odd" A mild and soft to put it, but do try read them until the end, They are ultimately the opinions ~

    The films are cringeworthy as films - even if you had never read the books

    .............................. ..

    1) None of the plot changes in LOTR facilitate the leap from the medium of novel to film and many are pointless acts of butchery that add nothing. What is the point of having Elrond appear in ROTK and say Arwen is dying because of the power of Mordor? It is pointless departures from the plot of the novels. This is not a purist fanatic of Tolkein talking - i would approve script changes which helped tell the story clearly and make it better for film. But that is not what happened here, all through the trilogy. It was ghastly. Why even use Tolkein if you are going to do stupid things like have a pointless interlude where Aragorn falls off his horse and is nearly killed and then picked up by his horse... All not in the book. This long, boring sequence adds nothing and just takes time away from actually telling the quality tale Tolkein came up with.

    I couldn't even watch The Hobbit having learned beforehand of the liberties taken there.

    2) Clumsy script. The pacing is all wrong. The script writing is almost vaudevillian in its awfulness. For example, Aragorn and co stand at the gates of Morder having said their plan is to draw the eye away from Frodo. Cut to Frodo lying on the ground before a fake looking tower having theatrically fallen in melodramatic slo-mo. Sam then says the eye is looking away "something is drawing it away". Because we the audience are so stupid and have to have the plan spelt out to us twice?? Poor Sean Astin was lumped with the worst lines of the film. He did his best but you can't turn #### into gold.

    3) Set design: horrible. The mines of moria looked silly in size way out of proportion, grim and not cleverly crafted as the book describes. The entrance to mount doom in Mordor looked the same design wise - as master carvings of the dwarves. Gondor looked like the whole thing was smashed to pieces in the opening few shots of battle only to have Gandalf say later: the first circle has been breached get back to the next level

    4) Costumes and props: appalling. Gandalf's hat looked like it was from an Easter Show bag. Arwen's necklace likewise - central prop of the film and it's made of silver plastic.

    5) Battle scenes: possibly the worst element in a rich field of mangulation. CGI looked fake and stupid. Cave trolls invented everywhere looking like I am playing a '90s playstation game. The elf legolas repeatedly uses his bow and arrow as a close range combat weapon which is fake and not believable. He also does stupid CGI stunts like an adolescent comedy. None of the battle scenes looked even remotely believable. The usual sin was depicting catastrophic destruction in the first 2 seconds then we are expected to suspend disbelief that the battle can rage on for hours after. Like the horses of the rohirrim running into the giant 4 tusked elephants.

    I won't even comment the Hobbit movies, The Ultimate jest.

    Stupid excess of villains looked totally unbelievable. Yes it is fantasy but good fantasy makes you believe in the imaginary world it creates. This fails.

    6) Politically correct altering of villains. Orcs speak with an english cockney accent in the films instead of the more arabic/turkish sounding alliteration of the orcish in the novel - and yet Peter Jackson slavishly reproduces the Finnish-inspired elvish tongue. Not half obvious. The orc swords are also changed from scimitars in the novels to have right-angled crooks as if they were half a square. Apart from being absurd it seems a transparent attempt to take the tale away from any semi-mythic rendering of the reconquista that echoes through the novels. Another cultural voice silenced to make the movie flat and one-dimensional. Goodbye artistic resonance.

    7) Music: boring and obvious. Instead of enhancing the mood it was like being browbeaten. Here comes the Olde Saxon strains for Theoden... It is Theoden here everyone get it? Lets repeat those same few bars 10x. It was about as subtle as the script....

    9) Those stupid sepia tones. Why film it with such distorted colours? The fairytale "feel" is way too overdone

    the only good things about this jackson trilogy were:

    A) The short scene where Gandalf rides his cart past a glowering hobbit in FOTR
    B) the first appearance of the black rider where the hobbits hide (and even this was tainted by pantomime obviousness of proximity - 'look out he's right behind you!')
    C) the balrog

    That is all. Even the ents were tainted.

    We should NOT be thankful that trilogy was made. Lots of money was wasted and if it hadn't been made the field would have been cleared for a director and scriptwriter with a bit of talent and sensitivity to create a real classic. This is what we are now stuck with for the next decade or two.

    What you've read was not written by me, but I must admit I agree with most of the points.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    A mighty virtue of his son was his incredible determination and decisiveness and most of all the extraordinary resilience. He as was his father , same old modest man, turning way from glory,fame and even most powerful temptation the money. Acquisition of wealth were never their primary motives.

    What you are about to read is incredibly important ~

    Christopher Tolkien’s feeling are much closer to reflective and sad than to anything hateful. The core of his concerns say nothing about the movies themselves, but rather about the impossibility of our current culture and the money-driven Hollywood film industry representing the level of meaning that J. R. R. Tolkien offered the world. Here is the core of his view:

    Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed by the absurdity of our time," Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has gone too far for me. Such commercialisation has reduced the esthetic and philosophical impact of this creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away.

    ~ Majority of the Tolkien fans and fans of Legendarium have not grasp nor they have explored the vastness of his creation. I dare to say not many are willing to even think or watch/read his letters ,By Orome! Some do not want to venture to such a level of complexity, but its inevitable ultimately if you desire for precious knowledge.

    The core of his concerns say nothing about the movies themselves, but rather about the impossibility of our current culture and the money-driven Hollywood film industry representing the level of meaning that J. R. R. Tolkien offered the world

    There cannot be a greater insight nor accurate statement other the words of his son. Listening to the C.Tolkien is the reflection of J.R.R. Tolkien. He is largely drawing what he once said fashioned in his own unique way. Father and Son ~ Literally the one.

    J.R.R. Tolkien clearly felt that the media that show things to the eyes - theater, movie, and so forth - present a very different psychological function than the written (or spoken) word. For those who live in the world of writing, reading, and telling tales, the listener or reader's visual imagination engaged in the process of listening or reading. Tolkien believed that no dramatic presentation would work for the Lord of the Rings because it would supplant the reader's act of imagination with the creator's (director, costumer's, special effects) interpretation. (This view that visual arts do not engage people's creative function the way the written and spoken word does has now been substantiated in psychological research. See the works of Joseph Chilton Pearce and the book Five Arguments for the Elimination of Television.) Which is absolutely true.


    C. Tolkien speaks about "The Silmarillion" is but a fragment of the Documentary: Link;

    A super rare and quite possibly the only video interview with both of his sons and the wife of Christopher Tolkien,Baillie Tolkien (née Klass), who edited J. R. R. Tolkien's The Father Christmas Letters for posthumous publication.

    What can we learn and discover from the video?

    Before watching the video please understand that Christopher’s views grew from his father’s views. You are technically hearing the Genius himself.

    Keep in mind the full Documentary is very complex and might be quite bewildering and difficult to watch for a beginner an even Average Tolkien Nerd/Fan, It is absolutely essential if you wish to gain great knowledge and core ideas behind the entire mythology.

    ~ The Primary goal of the Elves is art not the power, where men have taken the solution of power, the Domination, Tyranny. Elves desire for art, Men for power. Elves were viewed as Men without flaws, Elves where in the essence Men {we} before the fall, I have stated it is complex, There are multiple subjects which related to the current assertion. One must closely watch the full documentary

    ~ The Silmarillion was the primary {central} work of his fathers's Secondary world , Secondary world being the world of Arda, our World. C. Tolkien undergo the monumental task of editing and focused on fishing is ardouros task. J. R. R. Tolkien wrote a great deal of material connected to the Middle-earth legendarium that was not published in his lifetime. He had originally intended to publish The Silmarillion along with The Lord of the Rings, and parts of it were in a finished state when he died in 1973, but the project was incomplete. Tolkien once referred to his son as his "chief critic and collaborator", and Christopher Tolkien organized the masses of his father's unpublished writings, some of them written on odd scraps of paper a half-century earlier.

    ~ There were several Silmarillions and people often mistake and as he said , was in a way miss-leading.

    ~ The first accounts and fragments of the "Elder days" date back more than century ago. The Book of last tales, some parts were written in the trenches during shell-fire {1916} World War I Battle of the Some. That was the First Silmarillion although he did not call it that.

    ~ His later manner of writing was more remote and exalted. It is more immediate. It's even funny. It is written in extraordinarily ,flowerly, conciously Archaic manner which he {C.Tolkien} finds very attractive, So do I.

    ~ The Silmarillion was by far the earlier work of the Tolkien long before the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings

    ~ Great stories,Great Legends in undeveloped forms which were inspiration from him through his life, F example Lay of Beren and Luthien,Tragedy of Turin Turambar

    ~ The World War horrors and terrible experiences were in the essence the ultimate inspiration and driving force which ultimately fuelled and Motivated Tolkien to write his tales,great stories and Legends

    ~ Another Silmarillion was already in existence by around 1930. It is more different and chronicle. It was not finished. The Book of Lost Tales was finished. The 1930 Silmarillion was finished, Yes indeed it could sound a bit confusing ,but if you watch it closely and multiple times if neded you'll get a grip of it Or let me explain

    ~ 1930 Silmarillion existed, but it is very different, is that exact Silmarillion which would be edited and released 45years+ after Authors death, C.Tolkien himself said it was not finished. It would be only decades later.
    Book of Lost Tales ?aka 1930 Silmarilion ,but very imoporant to note a completely enclosed myth not presupposing any later ages

    ~ At that stage The Hobbit had no connection with it

    ~ in 1964 Tolkien said in the letter; By the time Hobbit appeared in 1937,The Silmarillion in coherent form,The Hobbit was not intended to have anything to do with it,I had the habbit where my children was too young and telling orally sometimes of writting down "children's stories" for their private amusement the Hobbit was intended to be one of them. It had no necessary connection with the mythology by which he mans The Silmarillion,but naturally became attracted towards this dominant construction in my mind causing the tale to become larger and more heroic as it proceeded even so it could rarely stand quite apart.

    Indeed its quite let Me say; Sorrowful, silly,disappointing that The Hobbit have had such an incredible impact and success over Silmarillion which was by far more imortant,essential and crucial work of J.R.R. Tolkien, There is an audio recording and another letter in which he said that Hobbit was only an jest,amusement , his true love and passion where the Elder days, the First age of Middle-Earth, Great stories,legends which he never personally finalised and the fact of people's inability to fully comprehend the vastness,greatness and complexity of the Silmarillion, even so to read it , becuase apparently it is too difficult. The Silmarillion was by far the true Masterpiece. Again do not be confused, To put it simply the tales which date back thousands of years before the events of the Third and even Second age, which precede The hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

    ~ The famous names such as the Misty Mountains,Mirkwood,the Great River of Wilderland,They began with the Hobbit and no necessary association at all with the mythology as it existed at that time

    ~ The Lord of the Rings was began as the sequel to the Hobbit,but this dominant construction in my mind as he said attracted everything into it,attracted the Hobbit and still more of course, attracted the Lord of the Rings. It bomes in the most complex fashion the sequel to the hobbit and heavily involved in The Silmarillion.

    The Silmarillion is essential to read and a "must have" It is inevitably intertwined in the essence in every other tale which is related to Legendarium.

    ~ Very important to learn ~ It was the last version of The Silmarillion that he couldn't finish. Tolkien's perfectionism,lack of time. Too tired too large of a task. Tolkien deeply wanted to finish the last version, but he could not. He was too tired,it was too complex and he was indeed old,even for him. The next statement is even more complex. He could not finish the Silmarillion that would stand in relation to Lord of the Rings. It was inevitable that the Lord of the Rings must alter the Silmarilion{It took 12 years for Tolkien to write Lord of the Rings} because having once been an enclosed myth with the beginning and the end it now has the vast extension and in the Lord of the Rings there are major figures who come out of the Elder days out of the Primeval world of the Silmarillion. Chielf among them ,Galadriel so great deal of writing back would have to be done ,but my father being who he was would never be a simple thing because when Galadriel enters out of the Lord of the Rings into the world of the Elves ,new stories begin right up to the end of his life Galadriel's position in the Elder days were still being developed so this was a major problem.

    ~ There were deeper problems. In his later years he had become detached in a way from the old legends,Turin,Beren and so on.. They were immensely important to him ,but they were things that they were like the legends of the Real world which he could observe and study and he became more and more interested in metaphysical aspects of his secondary invention. We can simply put it he was "trapped" between primary and secondary world, In case you did not know, the word Metaphysics , is a branch of philosophy exploring the fundamental questions For example ~ including the nature of concepts like being, existence, and reality. He could have been in the way obsessed ,too attached, way focused which drained him a lot of his time,energy. He was in certain way easily distracted, His fame in later years of life worsen it to the point in which he had to move way ,change his address and phone number.

    ~ His Secondary invention above all with the nature of the Elves because it is absolutely fundamental to whole conception is that men are mortal and Elves are immortal and as he declared and correctly declared the fundamental underpinning concern of all his work was death ~ Incredibly important the subject is connected to his personal reflections and experiences in World War I. That was the Catalyst to everything. The Death, Death he witnessed ,death of his mother,close friends and his near death experiences,horrors,torment of war and so on..

    ~ The intolerable fact and nature of the elves getting right back to the book of the lost tales was above they were immortal they were not naturally destined to die,they could be killed because they had bodies they were not in their nature destined to die ,whereas men are of nature destined to spend their short while in the world , was the life of the Elves conterminous with the life of Arda ,being the Elvish world for the World, Our World in which Middle-Earth was apart.

    ~ In his later years he became involved in profound attempt to determine the nature of an immortal being who is nonetheless incarnate and possesses a body, In turn was beginning to develop new stories within The Silmarillion and I think the whole thing simply became too large ,too complex to have so precise , to attempt to impose her precise metaphysical explanation on it,It was perhaps the task for a younger man the flame began to die down and he hadn't had the energy left that would be needed for such a huge transformation

    ~ Some people who knew him well have said that he really did not want to finish the Silmarillion ,suggesting even that to finish the Silmarillion would be finishing his life, I personally don't think that at all, I think that there is no real evidence for it,i think he deeply wanted to finish it,but he could not, too large , too large a task,to tired.

    The end after showing his final picture.The Metaphysical explanation was the most complex subject, Tolkien's nature and the way he fashioned and visualised his own Secondary world was impossible in that stage of his life. The flame begin to die out. Tolkien was severely traumatised by horrors,decay ,diseases and death of World of War I and in my opinion created a beings that would be affected in these particular areas. The Elves were and still are perfected men, men before the downfall. Why the death? Death have had unquestionably the profound deep striking effect on his mind. By the Age of 18 all but one of his close friend died,he experienced and felt the absolute carnage,torment,loss,sorrow, The physical,emotional and mental anguish which were ironically his ultimate transformation. Tolkien was the Perfectionist, his mind worked in way we cannot perceive, by the time he wanted to finish it ,he was too drained,sapped away. The fire did not burns so potent as it was in his Elder days, neverthless his son completed seemingly impossible task.

    I Thank thee with ally <3 for reading the entire thread I shall update it quite possibly in the following days and fix any errors/typo

    The Thread was written to honor Christopher Tolkien and his father and his Secondary world, my world as well in which I now honestly cannot imagine my primary world, tis insane I know But I love it. Thanks for their "Insanity" but more deep ,pure profound overwhelming love. The Flame imperishable, we have Priceless books,incomparable Fantasy realm and our beautiful game, The Lord of the Rings Online!

    Kind Regards

    Vanyalantriell

    Great stuff thanks.

  3. #3
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    I did not like the Hobbit movies, but I absolutely love the Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Thought they were well done. I would like to add that I've read the books once a year since 1983, and I still enjoyed the LOTR films.

    Hobbit films? Hated them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I did not like the Hobbit movies, but I absolutely love the Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Thought they were well done. I would like to add that I've read the books once a year since 1983, and I still enjoyed the LOTR films.

    Hobbit films? Hated them.
    I agree wholeheartedly, despite the occasional regrettable script decision, I thought Peter Jackson did a brilliant job of bringing Middle-earth to life with the Lord of the Rings movies. The Hobbit films had their moments, but overall they were a huge let down.

  5. #5
    And i agree. I cant even watch the hobbit it is so awful. had they made 1 movie and kept to the book, it might have been better than any of the lotr. I loved the movies, but the books were far better. Why he added stuff not from the book and left out some of what he did, i will never know. But it made the movies worse, but they were still great. i think he presented middle earth well enough and had enough tolkien to make them epic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyaerunanethiel View Post
    Arwen's necklace likewise - central prop of the film and it's made of silver plastic.
    I'm afraid this is incorrect.

    It was made of sterling silver inset with cubic zirconia.

    Weta Workshops, who made most all of the props for the film, along with many of the sets, tend not to do a second-rate job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    I'm afraid this is incorrect.

    It was made of sterling silver inset with cubic zirconia.

    Weta Workshops, who made most all of the props for the film, along with many of the sets, tend not to do a second-rate job.
    I can second that. I have a cousin who owns a metal fabrication workshop in Wellington, and was sub-contracted to Weta during pre-production on the LotR movies. He was always emphasising just how meticulous they were with every detail, including things that were never seen on screen. There were very few shortcuts from the artwork/design departments on those films.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I did not like the Hobbit movies, but I absolutely love the Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Thought they were well done. I would like to add that I've read the books once a year since 1983, and I still enjoyed the LOTR films.


    Green scrubbing bubbles at Minas Tirith rendering the sacrifice of the Rohirrim needless. . . Frodo turning on Sam. . . etc.

    Many of Jackson's later decisions seem to reflect a growing sense that he could do better than Tolkien, rather than giving in to the necessities of adapting the written word to the screen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I did not like the Hobbit movies, but I absolutely love the Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Thought they were well done. I would like to add that I've read the books once a year since 1983, and I still enjoyed the LOTR films.

    Hobbit films? Hated them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Green scrubbing bubbles at Minas Tirith rendering the sacrifice of the Rohirrim needless. . . Frodo turning on Sam. . . etc.

    Many of Jackson's later decisions seem to reflect a growing sense that he could do better than Tolkien, rather than giving in to the necessities of adapting the written word to the screen.
    While I agree that those two examples (and several others I can think of) are regrettable, cringe-worthy even, overall I consider the Lord of the Rings films to be one of the greatest achievements in epic cinema ever. Certainly they were one of the most ambitious film projects ever attempted, something only a person with massive self belief would have embarked on to begin with. Unfortunately Jackson's sense of self belief did get the better of him on occasion, and as you said it becomes apparent at times that he actually thought that his own storytelling instincts were superior to Tolkien's. Huge mistake there, but thankfully not one (in my opinion) that he made too often.

    Departures from the original story for the sake of film pacing, or catering to a modern audience, I can forgive to a certain degree. Changes made simply because Jackson thought he could tell the story better than Tolkien are another thing entirely.

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    I never enjoyed Tolkien's narrations and found his sons narration even less so enjoyable. It is often the case that authors don't have the capacity to narrate as their voices aren't conducive to captivate. Sure its agreed only they can emphasize or capitalize annunciations best because they know their thoughts and intents. However once they have been conveyed,other voices pay much better toll to the story and its devices. One such narrator is this man.

    Martin Shaw
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shaw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12sb5mPLBd8

    I don't endorse this copy from youtube but it is the narration I describe. This one is without commercials.
    Imo this is the best ever narration of the Silmarillion. Its easy to understand and Shaw has a presence I've not heard from any other including the author.
    Added bonus in the beginning is the background music is describing the words in music as the story evolves.

    The movies are bland in comparison. This narration allows you to sit back and open the mind to visualize the story Tolkien created.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post


    Green scrubbing bubbles at Minas Tirith rendering the sacrifice of the Rohirrim needless. . . Frodo turning on Sam. . . etc.

    Many of Jackson's later decisions seem to reflect a growing sense that he could do better than Tolkien, rather than giving in to the necessities of adapting the written word to the screen.
    Nope, I stand by what I say. I loved the LOTR films, have them on DvD, and have watched them many times.

    Hobbit movies, it took all my patience not to walk out of the theater.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallandil View Post
    This is exactly how I felt about the Hobbit movies.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

 

 

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