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Thread: Fiddle

  1. #1

    Fiddle

    Edit: I didn't realize there are four different fiddles.

    One of them has a pizzicato sound (plucking the strings), and three of them have a bowed sound, one seems more legato/vibrato, one is more staccato.

    I am pleasantly surprised.


    Last edited by Thurallor; Feb 10 2018 at 07:03 PM.
    Thurallor, Warden of Landroval
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurallor View Post
    Edit: I didn't realize there are three different fiddles.

    One of them has a pizzicato sound (plucking the strings), and two of them have a bowed sound.
    There are actually currently 4 different fiddles with different sounds (only three appearances):
    Basic - plays long held notes that stop when you stop the note
    Sprightly - plays staccato notes that always finish
    Lonely Mountain - plays vibrato notes that stop when you stop the note
    Traveller's Trusy - plays pizzicato (plucked) notes that always finish.

    All four should be available on Composer in the E&G Tavern (3 for copper / silver, 1 for Anniversary token barter).

    We would love your feedback on how these work in the /music system and any problems you experience.

    Darth Celtics may have a more in-depth post at some point, as he is more familiar with the different musical styles and individual sounds for each instrument. However you should note that the bottom 7 notes on the Fiddle have been replaced with non-note sounds that can be made with a Fiddle (since these notes are too low to actually play on a violin). Natural fiddle sound effects seemed like a nice option instead of silence. But it does mean that playing an existing abc song on the fiddle may produce some very interesting music :-)
    Last edited by Tybur; Feb 10 2018 at 03:07 PM.

  3. #3
    These are available for every class or just for the minstrel?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaylaKheledlire View Post
    These are available for every class or just for the minstrel?
    Fiddle Use is available for every character above level 5. The fiddles I listed will be available in game via varying mechanisms, but can all be played by any class at level 5, not just minstrels.
    There is a tier 11 crafted fiddle for Minstrels only that will NOT have a unique set of musical notes, but will share with one of the /music system fiddles.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tybur View Post
    There are actually currently 4 different fiddles with different sounds (only three appearances):
    Basic - plays long held notes that stop when you stop the note
    Sprightly - plays staccato notes that always finish
    Lonely Mountain - plays vibrato notes that stop when you stop the note
    Traveller's Trusy - plays pizzicato (plucked) notes that always finish.

    All four should be available on Composer in the E&G Tavern (3 for copper / silver, 1 for Anniversary token barter).

    We would love your feedback on how these work in the /music system and any problems you experience.

    Darth Celtics may have a more in-depth post at some point, as he is more familiar with the different musical styles and individual sounds for each instrument. However you should note that the bottom 7 notes on the Fiddle have been replaced with non-note sounds that can be made with a Fiddle (since these notes are too low to actually play on a violin). Natural fiddle sound effects seemed like a nice option instead of silence. But it does mean that playing an existing abc song on the fiddle may produce some very interesting music :-)
    For some songs like Concerning Hobbits or a version of Arabian Nights that I transposed myself, they make use of the A1’s knock sound effect in place of a low note. In particular for Concer. the melody where it has the slight pause, it plays the knock instead of the popped flute note.

    Bit of a PSA: Maestro seems to work best using the Harp transposer for the fiddle, since there is not yet one dedicated to it.

  6. #6
    One problem I noticed with the pizzicato version: If you play very fast notes, you hear scratching sounds, like very short bow movements. Those scratching sounds should only occur on the bowed versions, it doesn't make sense when plucking the strings.
    Thurallor, Warden of Landroval
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurallor View Post
    One problem I noticed with the pizzicato version: If you play very fast notes, you hear scratching sounds, like very short bow movements. Those scratching sounds should only occur on the bowed versions, it doesn't make sense when plucking the strings.
    Yea, I have this too. More scratching sounds the faster you play. On all over the fiddles. I like the realistic scratch sounds, but the faster you play the more they seem to appear, which makes them a bit annoying. Of course, many of the ABC-files aren't meant for these new fiddles, so the files themselves will obviously need some adjustment as well. Otherwise, the fiddles sound great! I'm impressed
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  8. #8
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    Fiddle Sounds

    Hello, friends. I made a highlight on the official Twitch channel for when I tested the fiddle sounds, if anyone wants to hear what they sound like.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227772758
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  9. #9
    This is great, people can make beautiful music with this.
    Last edited by Thurallor; Feb 10 2018 at 06:56 PM.
    Thurallor, Warden of Landroval
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Druidsfire View Post
    Hello, friends. I made a highlight on the official Twitch channel for when I tested the fiddle sounds, if anyone wants to hear what they sound like.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227772758
    Thanks for the showcase Druid
    The road goes ever on.

  11. #11
    My feedback on the fiddles so far.

    SSG, you did a good job at sampling this instrument, the fiddles all in all sound pleasant to the ear and I'm surprised at the fact there's different ways of playing it depending on what type of fiddle you have.

    Personally I like the Misty Mountains fiddle the best, the Basic fiddle is great but I think it is a little too quiet in comparison. It has a softer sound and could be used in tandem with the Misty Mountains fiddle to create quite a nice resounding effect.

    The Sprightly fiddle seems a bit too quick for it to work well in a non ABC file. However due to the nature of how the music system works, you cannot play too fast or else it simply doesn't register to others. I'd like to see how it sounds with a properly configured ABC file (this is also true with the Traveler's fiddle as the plucked sound seems too quiet at the moment)

    The violin sound effects are interesting and unique. I'm sure some creative band people can see use of these. However this does mean we're going to have to configure our ABC pieces differently. Other than that however I think it's a very solid instrument so far. The high notes don't sound scratchy (like with pibgorns) and I can make very nice chords just using my keyboard (which I've configured to be able to play the entire range of notes using the QWERTY keys)

    I would be very keen to hear deeper sounding and lower notes... Of course you cannot sample this on a fiddle... Maybe a cello could be next hm?

  12. #12
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    I tried to play several classic fiddle songs from the bluegrass genre. Not a single one was playable yet. The actual notes that came out sounded like they have much potential but I heard more knocks and pings than a junk yard Ford Pinto running with no oil. I look forward to seeing a more polished testable version
    I would drop all those extra sounds completely, remember the two notes of the clarinet and horn from the old music system and how it made those instruments nearly unusable. We don't need the extra noise, just give us the music notes. We have enough trouble with note loss as it so no need to add extra sounds that will ultimately detract from the overall music.
    Last edited by Emere; Feb 11 2018 at 07:32 PM.
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  13. #13
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    As someone who plays regularly in a band my pockets are full of instruments that I always have to carry wherever I go since I always need to be ready, and they take up a LOT of space, and now we will be getting even more instruments sooo...

    ...could we please please please pretty please have an Instrument Bag or something?
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  14. #14
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    I like the Fiddle very Much done a great job!, However there need to be some adjustments at noted above the knocking and scratching sounds on many tunes, but the songs that did play sound amazing few other tweaks with volume level with sprightly Fiddle In my opinion should be lowered just a tad.
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  15. #15
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    I have tested all four fiddles now and I must say I'm impressed. Even in the first round of beta this is the most polished and well thought out instrument we have in Lotro. Someone really knew what they were doing here.

    I wouldn't change a thing about the sounds. The volumes are fine, too. Basic and Lonely Mountain get louder the longer you hold the note, just like they should. Sprightly and Traveller's also work very well for their actual purpose. The additional sounds add a nice realistic touch to it.

    I've used virtual violins before, they just don't work with any random midi file. It would be a shame if anything was changed or removed only to fit most existing abc files. I was looking forward to write new songs and to adjust my old ones for the fiddle. That's the whole fun about the music system for me.

    Just add the missing animations and full flying notes if it is played by hand and this thing is perfect.

  16. #16
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    I'm aware that these instruments are not quite finished, so take these notes in the way of (hopefully) helpful and constructive critique:

    Pitch and range

    They all seem to be playing within the same pitch range as the current clarinet, in other words, the pitch of the actual notes. If the lowest note in the fiddle's range is the actual lowest note of a violin, then perhaps you should have also sampled a viola to make the range complete. I do think the knock should be restricted to the Spritely Fiddle because it is best suited for Irish/Scottish reels and jigs or bluegrass. I've heard fiddle players use these sounds deliberately accentuate a rhythm. I wasn't someone who absolutely hated some of the sounds added to the lowest notes of Flute, Clarinet and Horn, I just hated that none of the sustained note instruments had a complete 3 octave range. I feel that way here as well, at least one of these fiddles NEEDS to have the complete range of notes, and I would vote for AT LEAST the Lonely Mountain Fiddle for that job, or preferably both Lonely Mountain and Traveler's Trusty Fiddle. Basic Fiddle seems a good place to put the more comical sounds... could be used to great effect for role-players doing a drunken song LOL!

    Having one of them play sustained bass notes (Horn pitch range) would have been really nice, too. But hey, I am thrilled that there is not just one, but a whole range of note styles to use!!

    Suggestion: for now, until you have a complete range of real notes, I'd prefer that the lower notes had no sounds at all. In order to assign any of these to already arranged songs, or even to make parts for new songs, it will require an awful lot of hand editing to remove the lower-range notes

    Tone quality and volume

    Spritely Fiddle has uniformly good tone and seems on par with other instruments at default +mf+ volume.

    When using Lonely Mountain Fiddle in solo songs the upper range is noticeably quieter than the lower range... OR quicker notes of the melody in the upper range don't sustain long enough to match the longer low notes that have time to build their full volume. It doesn't seem suited for the usual solo file because of this. For playing a slower soulful melody in ensemble it is really good. I tried it on melody parts in some multi-part songs and it performed well. The vibrato is a beautiful touch. <3

    Traveler's Trusty Fiddle sounds pretty good up to the top octave where there is noticeable resonance from the other strings in the recording. The pitch of this resonance goes up on a couple of the sharp/flat notes perhaps because it was digitally raised to make the note rather than getting a unique sample. I think this harmonic resonance is what others have been complaining about in the pizzicato fiddle. One of the notes (one of the pitch-raised ones) also has a slight warble, I'll have to come back later to determine exactly which note it is).

    Basic Fiddle has a good steady sound and would make lovely "String Ensemble" chords in the upper ranges. It did pretty well with most solo files, except that its range is too narrow for most of them.

    More of this review later.....

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  17. #17
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    All of the fiddle sound effects are... interesting, but honestly, what practical application do that have in playing regular music? I played several songs (admittedly not made for the fiddle) on each fiddle and every one sounded like a first-year student that was constantly messing up. LOTRO Musicians will have to completely restructure their music files to avoid these sounds in a way they haven't had to do so before. With all other instruments, you can basically convert a MIDI into an ABC file and -with the proper assigning of instruments and some tweaking- get something playable, but these extra sounds are a completely different format.

    Maybe you could have a "Trickster's Fiddle" or something that has all of the sound effects. I absolutely love having them as an option, but for playing regular music, they make it an unnecessarily complex affair that only serves to sour the music.
    Last edited by ZoneTripper; Feb 12 2018 at 05:19 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raskantir View Post
    I wouldn't change a thing about the sounds. The volumes are fine, too. Basic and Lonely Mountain get louder the longer you hold the note, just like they should. Sprightly and Traveller's also work very well for their actual purpose. The additional sounds add a nice realistic touch to it.
    Please show me where a fiddle shouldn't be able to play cotton eyed joe, battle of new orleans, orange blossom special, etc etc etc. Try playing any of those fiddle parts in game and you hear more popping and scratching than you do actual music notes. There is no way this instrument is near ready.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emere View Post
    Please show me where a fiddle shouldn't be able to play cotton eyed joe, battle of new orleans, orange blossom special, etc etc etc. Try playing any of those fiddle parts in game and you hear more popping and scratching than you do actual music notes. There is no way this instrument is near ready.
    Don't know which version you are using, but it takes about one minute to transpose a song or a part of it to a higher key. Sounds good, no popping and scratching at all.

  20. #20
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    We shouldn't have to transpose songs to get rid of ear-splitting screeches. Also, let's be honest, most music comes from converting MIDI files where we don't have control of how the notes are laid out. There could well be some compositions out there that sound great for most of the song and then dip into the low end. Very few people compose original works and could take these sound effects into consideration. Yes there are MIDI editors -I use one myself- but these fiddles are meant to be a tool for making music, not sound effects. There's sure to be some creative ways to use them, but %99.9 percent of LOTRO musicians are working with other people's compositions. We need the fiddles to produce pleasant-sounding music with every note. Again, if there was an additional way to make these sounds, fantastic.

  21. #21
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    Hey all! I just wanted to take a minute to address some of the feedback given so far.


    Volume:
    The Sprightly might be a tad too loud; I'll take another listen and adjust accordingly. We're also going to bump up the Basic a bit so the start of notes work slightly better at faster speeds (but keeping in mind we can't bump them up too much, otherwise it'll make the middle of the notes far too loud).


    Range:
    Unfortunately, fiddles are only designed to play as low as G3 (or G2 in our ABC system). Extending the range outside the range of the real instrument isn't something that we want to do. When we designed our fiddles, we were always under the impression that existing ABC files would have to be tweaked to accomodate the inclusion of an instrument with a smaller range; hence our decision to fill the blank spaces with sounds that you could get creative with.


    Effects:
    I already plan to remove the sound effects from the Lonely Mountain Fiddle, and remove all but the body knocks on the Sprightly Fiddle. We would like to keep all of the sound effects on the Basic and Travellers Fiddles. *IF* the music community at large would prefer to not have the sound effects at all, with the understanding that existing ABC files will then leave silent gaps in that range when played with a fiddle, removing sound effects is something we would consider. But we would like to get much more feedback from the music community before making such a change.


    Feedback Request:
    Once you've had a chance to modify or create files for the new fiddles, we would love to hear your feedback on things that aren’t working well, especially any problems you encounter with individual notes that might need tweaking.


    Overall:
    One other thing to keep in mind is that we really want the fiddle to have a lot of character, which is why we decided to go with several fiddles instead of only one. Each of them serves a different purpose and might be best utilized when working together: Sustained, emotional, fast, flavor. We want you to have as many options as we can reasonably give you and see what you can create with it!

  22. #22
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    About the sound effects:

    Having something to be creative with is great for those who are professionals and can manually edit or even write their own ABC's from scratch so I wouldn't want them taken away completely. But personally I use Maestro because that's the only thing that is easy enough for me to understand and use, and I would love to be able to use fiddles too

    I haven't been testing the fiddles on Bullroarer (though I have listened to others play and it sounded very pretty) because I'm not a pro so my feedback wouldn't be as good as others, but I thought I'd just add this lil feedback anyway that those of us who can't edit manually would love to have a fiddle with sustained notes and hopefully another one as well that we can use with Maestro Silent notes are better than sounds we can't remove or change But please keep the sound effect on one of the fiddles because we have really really talented musicians playing this game and I'm sure they could make awesome things with them!
    ;) “There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn’t matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.” ~ Hindu Proverb

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZoneTripper View Post
    We shouldn't have to transpose songs to get rid of ear-splitting screeches.
    I disagree. Along with roleplay, tinkering on abc files and trying different instruments to make them sound good is what keeps me busy and playing the game when I'm done with the content.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Raskantir View Post
    I disagree. Along with roleplay, tinkering on abc files and trying different instruments to make them sound good is what keeps me busy and playing the game when I'm done with the content.
    Agreed, I don't have a problem with the fiddle requiring more skill and effort to use, just like some character classes are harder than others. For people who just want to auto-convert MIDI files, there are plenty of other instruments already.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthCeltics View Post
    Hey all! I just wanted to take a minute to address some of the feedback given so far.

    Range:
    Unfortunately, fiddles are only designed to play as low as G3 (or G2 in our ABC system). Extending the range outside the range of the real instrument isn't something that we want to do. When we designed our fiddles, we were always under the impression that existing ABC files would have to be tweaked to accomodate the inclusion of an instrument with a smaller range; hence our decision to fill the blank spaces with sounds that you could get creative with.
    My understand is the range of a violin or fiddle is about 4 octaves. If that is not correct then so be it. If it is correct, then please, give us three octaves of music notes to work with since that is the limit of the music system unless I am mistaken. If we want knocks, we can always use the drums woodblock to get that.
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