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  1. #26
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    MoL has already stated ducking out of the discussion... so congrats on giving our devs another measure on the side of reasons why they might not want to engage with the forum community unless they have to. Being vigorously insulted and then called a liar when I tried to explain, and told that I'm wrong about details that i have the facts for, by someone who does not... yeah, I wouldn't want to continue participating in that either. Well done. I'll answer, though, just the once:


    Quote Originally Posted by Aleziana View Post
    To revise you what ugly means,
    https://imgur.com/a/YGqDz
    You definition of ugly is purely subjective; I disagree with it, as do many others who have spoken up at various times, so trying to state it like some objective fact just makes your case seems willfully ignorant. Try not to do that in future, if you want to make a coherent case for something.


    This is a totaly mess of everythink. Colors (A mess of Colors) and staffs been thrown in to somewhere.
    Not sure what you're seeing here; I see primarily thematic focus on bluff white edifacing, a propensity for grand depiction and smaller flourishes over the greater substructure. What do you mean by 'a mess of colours'? The criticism doesn't make any sense.

    I understand your poing that you dont have the resourses to creat new things but instead you deside to put endless heads and wings everywhere . Every time i load something in Gondor and Mordor i see textures under the ground or isnide other buildings ( you can cut some stairs that goes underground for no reason (that will help us load less things )) !!!
    No, actually, it doesn't. I know this and I didn't have to think very hard to confirm it from the information we know about the game and the engine. Again, making blithe statements that suggest something very simple and easy to do isn't done because people willfully want to make things bad for you just makes your entire drive look very ignorant and ill-informed. Let's take this suggestion: objects that clip through or below other objects as part of the world-building. you say, they can cut them off and save resource... No, they can't, no it doesn't, that's a very stupid thing to suppose. It might be true in real-world physical building, but it's very much not true in digital design.

    Suppose we've got a set of stairs that are designed after a certain architectural style and theme, and contain all the relevant information and support code to make it behave as it should in world. That's a certain amount of data memory that is needed. Every time we instance this bridge object that only really makes a very minor flag once it's loaded into memory. Having the bridge loaded takes a chunk, having a dozen instances of the bridge scattered about weighs virtually nothing alongside that. If, however, we want to cut off half the bridge at a specific location, and place the modified object there, rather than just referencing the original bridge, then that needs to be a separate object, and will in the vast majority of systems require its own memory load.

    you guys are so wrong as i said you dont even try to make it look better if i had the cod not to creat new textures but only with copy and paste i am 100% that me or someone else who love lotro could make the world look better.
    I'm 100% sure you couldn't. I would very much love to look into some alternate universe where the kind of unthinking entitled people who make these sorts of comments are actually given the chance they claim they could do better with, just to watch them discover how wrong they are, and to see them realise the depth of their own foolishness. Of course, the people who make these kinds of comments don't tend to learn from such things, and tend to find other things and other people to blame at the first opportunity... perhaps you're not like that, but either way, it would still be amusing to watch. If you're still convinced that you are a better world-builder than the people they currently have world-building for the game, then by all means submit your resume to the appropriate people. If you don't, then it stands proven that they, clearly, care more about the game than you do.

    Here is some suggestions that will make your game look better:
    Oh, this should be good...

    1) Make Landscape and tows more minimal
    3) Revamp Gondor towns with less buildings inside buildings and remove a 90% of statues ( remove all argonath statues that make argonath a non unique place) and wings and heads.
    4) Spent some time on removing NPCs that walk inside other NPCs and fired some of them.
    Make things more minimal... that's your suggestion? Cut out the majority of things that are used to give locations atmosphere and presence, and somehow, that will make it better? that's... one aesthetic, I suppose. I know I certainly wouldn't want to play in a world where nothing had anything but the bare minimals for existing, where there were only the bare necessities of npcs and buildings weren't actually things you could go into. No thanks, you can keep those suggestions: they absolutely would not make anything better at all, in my opinion.

    2) Make less pointless quests and give more expierience in fewer and more quality quests
    Few quests are pointless. Otherwise they would not be quests. Personally, I like having lots of quests to do. We already get the vast majority of our leveling XP from quest completion, rather than other sources.

    5) Spent a whole update only in bugs fixes and class balance and making to make better performance
    And your final suggestion for fixing class balance and performance is... 'fix class balance and performance'. Well, that's helpful. I'm sure no one on the dev team thought of that. You should submit your resume to SSG at once so that they can benefit more from your expertise on these matters. Really though, just think for a minute, actually think, seriously, like a real person, in the real world, talking to other real people, who are working real jobs for their very real living; think and engage with it. your suggestion was 'spend an update fixing bugs and addressing performance'. Do you honestly, truly and in a legitimate way believe that the dev team have not weighed up and discussed the pros and cons of how much of their development cycle they can allocate to different areas, and their options for addressing game performance, class balance, persistent bugs and other matters? do you truly believe they haven't thought about it, in some way that your 'Suggestion' here can be helpful, informative or novel to them? In any way? Really?


    I do have to admit, the attitudes of some people it really beggars belief... some of those commenting can't possibly be genuinely serious in a way that they've considered, more than just complaining for the sake of it, otherwise they couldn't possibly say things like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Levanas
    I'm so sorry dear MoL but this is not the truth.
    I'm sorry... what world are you living in? MoL, who is on the development team of the game, and who has a variety of facts and figures available for checking, as well as literal memories of the production process, has stated that there were a tonne of brand new completely original art assets created for Gondor, that did not exist before Gondor.... And, when you look in game, this is tangibly, clearly, dare I say unarguably, obvious to see. There are. Many.

    And you, who are not someone on the development team, who does not have access to any of the behind the scenes of the game, who was in no way involved with any of its production process, and who presumably has played the same game in which all of these visual assets that were created fresh for Gondor can be seen whenever you want.... are saying "No, that's not true".

    What do you actually mean by that statement? Because no-one capable of stringing two words together who has played the game could actually make that statement with literal convictions and believe it to be true. So plainly, you know that it isn't. If you mean that they recycle as much of their memory assets as they reasonably can, while still creating a very great many brand new assets to help the new region look unique, then yes, of course they do. I'm not seeing that as a complaint against anything.


    And Findun, I don't think MoL quit the thread out of agreement with these people. Quite the opposite. The stated reason was that it wasn't productive to debate with people of the displayed mindset. Would you want to continue a debate with someone who spent their efforts deriding the efforts made by your team, insulting your work-ethic, insulting your creation, and calling you a liar to your face when you tried to defend it reasonably? All while sitting there doing nothing at all and blithely claiming that they could easily do a better job of it? Why would anyone want to stay and entertain people like that? They aren't interested in a discussion, or in listening to anyone else, after all.


    I miss the thematic tool-tips, to stay on topic, i do. I detest that the most recent flavour texts are just jargon terms that mimic the literal mechanical description below.... it's not helpful and, serves no real purpose.
    I can also understand the 'pressure' aspect that has led to their curtailment and while I don't agree with it, if it caused arguments internally then a voice or two out here isn't going to change things.

    What I'd accept would be that if ALL of our skills on all classes were given their full thematic flavour descriptions visible and readable on the Skills page, so that the words are not lost and can still be seen and checked if desired... and then the tooltips themselves left at just the mechanical function. Of course, this would need to also account in some way for the non-skill descriptions in the trees, but it could be worked.
    Rider, Fighter, Virgin, Lover; Watcher, Chaser, Bearer of Pain.
    Victim tormented, Abused and Broken; Rise from the ashes and Hunt once again.
    And Vengeance Be Thy Oath.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleziana View Post
    To revise you what ugly means,
    https://imgur.com/a/YGqDz

    This is a totaly mess of everythink. Colors (A mess of Colors) and staffs been thrown in to somewhere. I understand your poing that you dont have the resourses to creat new things but instead you deside to put endless heads and wings everywhere . Every time i load something in Gondor and Mordor i see textures under the ground or isnide other buildings ( you can cut some stairs that goes underground for no reason (that will help us load less things )) !!! you guys are so wrong as i said you dont even try to make it look better if i had the cod not to creat new textures but only with copy and paste i am 100% that me or someone else who love lotro could make the world look better.

    Here is some suggestions that will make your game look better:

    1) Make Landscape and tows more minimal
    2) Make less pointless quests and give more expierience in fewer and more quality quests
    3) Revamp Gondor towns with less buildings inside buildings and remove a 90% of statues ( remove all argonath statues that make argonath a non unique place) and wings and heads.
    4) Spent some time on removing NPCs that walk inside other NPCs and fired some of them.
    5) Spent a whole update only in bugs fixes and class balance and making to make better performance

    To sum up, i dont say that the game in whole is ugly but the ugly things are override beautiful so give us more quality game even if it cost you less updates per year and you will definitely earn more people and money !!!!!

    Sorry for my bad english!!!!

    I've got to disagree with a lot of this. I too, remember the "good old days" (Beta, Founder, Lifer here...) and have seen the quality go up and down over the years. The Rohan, post-Rohan, and (from what I've seen so far) Mordor areas seem excellent in scale, tone, and flavor. For me, the lowest points in design were places like Enedwaith, which felt like one tiny biome next to another, Disneyland-ish... The scale of the Shire is nowhere near what it should be (an unfortunate carryover from the game's MEO design days). Skirmish Camps as a concept are bizarre and out of place in some spots, and Instance Join makes them even less useful. And some of the narrative decisions around your time in Isengard were questionable at best for an MMO.


    OTOH, the devs have learned a lot over time, and the scale and landscape of Gondor and Rohan mark (for me) high points in structure and layout.

    There's always room for Quality and more polish... But SSG is doing remarkably well considering the trials and tribulations LoTRO has been through and IMHO should be commended on some of their later design choices.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Findun View Post
    I feel sorry for MadeOfLions. I honestly believe he is one of the few devs that really love the game and what they have created over all those years, and I do believe the retreat from this thread shows how even he is hurt what kind of direction the game has taken ...
    I only think you are wrong in one aspect.

    You stated "he is one of the few devs that really love the game".
    I disagree that MOL is in the minority.
    I think the folks keeping this train on the tracks do it because the love LOTR.
    ............................ missed a putt.........................At a Dead & Co. show on a Mexican beach............ another Dead & Co. show at the same beach a year later
    ......................................................
    The real Boraxxe... wearing his "Get off my lawn!" face and his "I smoked my lawn" face, and yes, that's a banana, no, I'm not happy to see you.
    If it's not dangerous, it's not fun!
    Golfing Hobby yes....Golfing Hobby yes

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleziana View Post
    Have you seen how Gondor looks like? its ugly its a mess of copy and paste of whatever you find in game, even a free modarator could make the world after Rohan look much better by using copy and paste. You dont even try to make the world look better the game after helms deep is a huge mess. If i where you i would focused more on making less updates with better quality even if we had 1 update per year i realy don't care i pearsonaly prefer better game play and art desing quality. And one last thing, The most of my friends who come to my house while i play lotro always demand to show them MINAS TIRITH and I feel shame and i try it to cover it by showing them Dol Guldur and Rohan instead. You have lost a bunch of my friends that love LOTR lore and want to play in middle earth but their eyes are bleeding after seing Gondor and Mordor and YES the ugly parts of lotro override the beautiful ones and its sad.
    Others have already responded to this, but I want to add that I find this opinion exaggerated and unjust. Gondor and Mordor have many places that impressed me visually like nothing else in this game. I wanted to settle down in Imloth Melui, if only we could visit it on a day with a blue sky... At least I can roam North Ithilien on a sunny day. And now Seregost - its strange beauty amazes me when I ride aiming at its main gate and can do it without a map indicator because it is visible from miles away in all its glory.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    I only think you are wrong in one aspect.

    You stated "he is one of the few devs that really love the game".
    I disagree that MOL is in the minority.
    I think the folks keeping this train on the tracks do it because the love LOTR.
    And I disagree with you. I think the majority of this games devs are phoning it in for the most part, so they can avoid going to another company ( and in some cases, an entirely different field as they barely cut it in this one ) where they'd be the "new guy" and have to actually show some work. They have it made now. Sure, maybe the pay is less, but so is the pressure to "perform". EVerybody's bro's, everybody's been here since the beginning, you get away with a lot more with "family" you've spent years with than you'd ever get away with as a new blood in a modern company. These are employees riding the last train for the easy paycheck until it finally derails ( won't be long, tracks are already pulling apart ),that's all. You guys really bought into that whole "We split from Turbine and made SSG so we could keep these games for you!" ####, when in reality WB/Turbine were purging these games and Turbine no longer need these people on staff. Making SSG was literally a desperation move to keep the amigos all together instead of having to find new jobs where they'd all have to sink or swim as the new guys. MadeofLions is really the only one I give benefit of the doubt to, as he's the only one who continually shows any real interest in the game or you.
    Last edited by Korandon; Jan 24 2018 at 04:41 AM.

  6. #31
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    Thank you MoL for showing up! Keep up the good work.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Findun View Post
    I feel sorry for MadeOfLions. I honestly believe he is one of the few devs that really love the game and what they have created over all those years, and I do believe the retreat from this thread shows how even he is hurt what kind of direction the game has taken ...
    I feel sorry for him too. My comments were not aimed at anyone in particular, in fact I think SSG basically inherited a sinking ship after what WB did to it in their misguided attempted to squeeze every penny they could out of it. The game was controlled by anonymous bean-counters for too long and I seriously doubt that anyone could restore it to its former glory after where they took it.

  8. #33
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    I disagree with the Gondor is ugly comments as well as the devs phoning it in. Go back and watch the 10th Anniversary Live Stream of all of the dev interviews. They all speak about their jobs in very loving and sincere tones, but it's what they do not say that is more telling. You can tell that there are things that they wish truly worked, but that due to time or upper management decisions, they had to either release what they could or would love to go back to do more with things. Case in point, the dev who created the Instance Finder. He lamented at how he wished it was something that worked a little better so it would be more useful.

    We all have our ideas of how we wished LOTRO could be different and even if a LOTRO 2.0 were to come out, there would still be people complaining about various things. If you feel like you are being lied to by devs, maybe you should try checking out some of the recent flops of Kickstarters that have failed or are currently failing. Making games is certainly no easy task and I think that people who can blindly say that a dev who has been working on said project for the better of five+ years as many of the devs who were interviewed are, clearly do not know what they are talking about and are probably just a little too close to this and should take a step back. Giving class/game feedback, mutual love or game bug reports is the prime reason for forums and social media. Declaring that a dev is lazy and doesn't care is a meaningless attempt to goad people into action. Reminds me of a teenager who cannot understand the overall BIG picture and when told by their parents that they cannot go do something decides to burst out and say "You don't care about me! I hate you!"

    I for one believe that SSG is running a pretty lean machine right now and that for the most part, the people who are responsible for game content truly care and have given many hours away from their families to serve a bunch of people something special and unique. I am critical about this game and not a fanboi, but I would never just stamp my feet and accuse any of the people who make this game of not caring or being lazy. Those of you who do, link me to the game you've made so I can go check it out!
    Pinched - Burglar - Founding member of the Kin that Says Nii on Landroval.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by abrahamL View Post
    I disagree with the Gondor is ugly comments as well as the devs phoning it in. Go back and watch the 10th Anniversary Live Stream of all of the dev interviews. They all speak about their jobs in very loving and sincere tones, but it's what they do not say that is more telling. You can tell that there are things that they wish truly worked, but that due to time or upper management decisions, they had to either release what they could or would love to go back to do more with things. Case in point, the dev who created the Instance Finder. He lamented at how he wished it was something that worked a little better so it would be more useful.

    We all have our ideas of how we wished LOTRO could be different and even if a LOTRO 2.0 were to come out, there would still be people complaining about various things. If you feel like you are being lied to by devs, maybe you should try checking out some of the recent flops of Kickstarters that have failed or are currently failing. Making games is certainly no easy task and I think that people who can blindly say that a dev who has been working on said project for the better of five+ years as many of the devs who were interviewed are, clearly do not know what they are talking about and are probably just a little too close to this and should take a step back. Giving class/game feedback, mutual love or game bug reports is the prime reason for forums and social media. Declaring that a dev is lazy and doesn't care is a meaningless attempt to goad people into action. Reminds me of a teenager who cannot understand the overall BIG picture and when told by their parents that they cannot go do something decides to burst out and say "You don't care about me! I hate you!"

    I for one believe that SSG is running a pretty lean machine right now and that for the most part, the people who are responsible for game content truly care and have given many hours away from their families to serve a bunch of people something special and unique. I am critical about this game and not a fanboi, but I would never just stamp my feet and accuse any of the people who make this game of not caring or being lazy. Those of you who do, link me to the game you've made so I can go check it out!
    Very well said, and my sentiments exactly! LOVE the teenager analogy...

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Korandon View Post
    And I disagree with you. I think the majority of this games devs are phoning it in for the most part, so they can avoid going to another company ( and in some cases, an entirely different field as they barely cut it in this one ) where they'd be the "new guy" and have to actually show some work. They have it made now. Sure, maybe the pay is less, but so is the pressure to "perform". EVerybody's bro's, everybody's been here since the beginning, you get away with a lot more with "family" you've spent years with than you'd ever get away with as a new blood in a modern company. These are employees riding the last train for the easy paycheck until it finally derails ( won't be long, tracks are already pulling apart ),that's all. You guys really bought into that whole "We split from Turbine and made SSG so we could keep these games for you!" ####, when in reality WB/Turbine were purging these games and Turbine no longer need these people on staff. Making SSG was literally a desperation move to keep the amigos all together instead of having to find new jobs where they'd all have to sink or swim as the new guys. MadeofLions is really the only one I give benefit of the doubt to, as he's the only one who continually shows any real interest in the game or you.
    Sad how people make assumptions that have no basis in fact.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammadryad View Post
    I feel sorry for him too. My comments were not aimed at anyone in particular, in fact I think SSG basically inherited a sinking ship after what WB did to it in their misguided attempted to squeeze every penny they could out of it. The game was controlled by anonymous bean-counters for too long and I seriously doubt that anyone could restore it to its former glory after where they took it.

    SSG has proven to be more greedy than WB and Turbine lol. This expansion with no content except tons of mobs and grindy quests. They also introduces p2w lootboxes over this overpriced expansion. Bugs inbalance among classes and broken lootsystems. They release a instance cluster with 2 instances, and one of them broken. WB is ofc better than an indie studio like daybreak who is known for killing mmos.

  12. #37
    Maybe Gondor isn't ugly, but it could be so much more beautiful with less wings attached to everything.
    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
    Trapper of Foes needs better tools to fulfill it's supporting(CC and offensive debuffs) and DoT role.

  13. #38
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    Can people stop say that "Gondor is ugly" ? Gondor landscape is nice, what is ugly is the buildings/large cities.. like Minas Thirith, ugly textures and copypaste. Everything has the wrong scale to, everything is just too big.

  14. #39
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    MoL has explained adequatley why in-game models often look similar or the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Findun View Post
    he is hurt what kind of direction the game has taken ...
    everyone else stop complaining and just push for overtime pay for the ONE dev who is working on 64-bit client - that will fix Most of the GFX/performance/models memory issues.
    Speaking with experience as someone with a Magna ### laude B.S. in Computer and Information Science .

    oh, and MoL is a SHE!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starliteyes View Post
    Sad how people make assumptions that have no basis in fact.
    It's sad when people can't see what's right in front of them.

  16. #41
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    Having jumped in late '13 I can not have an opinion on the tool-tips. I don't scrutinize them at all, not did I have a clue about the history of them, or at least many of them, told in this thread. I read what I need to read, and that's it. It only goes to show the many many small items that reflects the work on the game that perhaps goes unnoticed and thus unappreciated, not the least by myself.

    I will however show my appreciation for most of the game areas, and, since it was mentioned, Gondor among them. it is beautiful, it has a lot of originality and one can tell a lot, or tons, of effort went in to create new material, however, allow me to point one one thing that actually bothers me: the brick and mortar work, of, among other, Minas Tirith. In this, re usage is a given and the fact that one wall looks like another is of course obvious and right. But that columns, stones and many other items are often kinda garbled upon one another with little sense for how it should look, and be built, in real life, sorry, that proves to me a serious lack of time and consistency. Walk around, observe the walls and parapets and arches and colonnades. See the flaws and inconsistencies. Even if the result is a beautiful building and its shape, many of the small pieces are just put together in the wrong way.
    The Elruthrim Brethren of Crickhollow
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  17. #42
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    I resist being too critical, but feel I must add my voice here.

    I've been here since the very beginning, and in the past I've commented on how things have changed. I GET it, the devs just don't have the time to do some things, but I also can't buy the notion that some things would take much time to do... things like the flavour text pointed out.

    I first really noticed it when we had the north part of Rohan. I rode around and aquired titles for my deeds, and they were HORRIBLE. "Small Animal Slayer of the Norcrofts" or some such. Compare that to "Doom of the Angmarim," from slaying things in Angmar. I would go into taverns and houses in many of the early areas of the game, and there would be tables and chairs, beds and so forth, many of which I could actually USE. In Gondor and Rohan, I don't think there's a single functional chair anywhere. Most buildings are just blocks, you can't actually go INTO. What few taverns there are have no beds or shopkeepers or anything else. The world of the game has become far less real, because there's nothing IN it... it's all just mockups... or at least that's how it feels.

    This is a great game. It still looks great, even at the age it is, and the gameplay is still enjoyable (though I still get frustrated with the endless stuns, knocks and disarms), but the quality of the workmanship just doesn't seem to be there as it was in the beginning. As I say, I notice it in the little things, the weak titles, the lack of flavour text, the lack of chairs or other interactables.

    I don't want to say the devs don't care, but for whatever reason, it's not like it used to be.
    Skjald of Rohan, Minstrel, Captain of Rohan

    R.I.P NIDOR of Brandywine Server(1970-2012)

  18. #43
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    Usable chairs are another thing I've really missed in the later parts of the game. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the benches in the Court of Celeborn are actually usable!

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniyel View Post
    everyone else stop complaining and just push for overtime pay for the ONE dev who is working on 64-bit client - that will fix Most of the GFX/performance/models memory issues.
    Speaking with experience as someone with a Magna ### laude B.S. in Computer and Information Science .

    oh, and MoL is a SHE!
    MadeOfLions is a guy fyi. He's been in several live-streams over the years.

 

 
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