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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    and that's the thing. When I find it painful to go through Mordor but still amazing and fun to do say Great River or Moria something is terribly wrong
    Exactly.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    One of the interesting things about adapting Middle-earth for a videogame is that you learn every single sentence in the book is someone's favorite; leave it out at your peril! I think wiping out the last of the Easterlings at the end of the Battle of the Black Gate would have been a poor dramatic choice, given what else was going on at the time; you really need to see the mop-up at the end of a battle? Hadn't we spent years doing just that in Rohan and in Gondor? But that's game design for you, and indeed creativity in general. Choosing what to include and what not to include is part of the challenge, and those three sentences never struck me as being crucial to see. They might be to you, but I disagree that there's all that much wasted potential here.

    I offer you a sentence that isn't my favorite, but seems useful to remember. It's from Sam, when he learns that he missed seeing the Oliphants at the Battle of Pelennor Fields:

    "'Well, one can't be everywhere at once, I suppose,' he said. 'But I missed a lot, seemingly.'"

    MoL
    You know what? I have to agree with you here. I have in the past tutted at the decisions you have made or remade in changes. (rope over the wall in Caras etc)

    But, a little older and less selfish, I see this story a kind of step above fan fiction but still an adaptation of the original. Decisions have to be made and things left on the figurative cutting room floor.

    It's possibly why a lot of folks are asking for a vanilla server because the story back then (SoA), albeit following the main narrative, was a completely new and fresh tale. This gave you the latitude to create something truly remarkable.
    The closer we came together with the main story, the harder it became to keep every one happy due to expectation. This is why I expect the new tv series mooted will be a success due to less expectation in the narrative and the hanging on every word.

    Keep moving forward is all we can do and I hope that the TV series will bring in a resurgence of new players and revenue. This way we can continue to play in this world for many years to come.
    ----A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything----

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin View Post
    You know what? I have to agree with you here. I have in the past tutted at the decisions you have made or remade in changes. (rope over the wall in Caras etc)

    But, a little older and less selfish, I see this story a kind of step above fan fiction but still an adaptation of the original. Decisions have to be made and things left on the figurative cutting room floor.

    It's possibly why a lot of folks are asking for a vanilla server because the story back then (SoA), albeit following the main narrative, was a completely new and fresh tale. This gave you the latitude to create something truly remarkable.
    The closer we came together with the main story, the harder it became to keep every one happy due to expectation. This is why I expect the new tv series mooted will be a success due to less expectation in the narrative and the hanging on every word.

    Keep moving forward is all we can do and I hope that the TV series will bring in a resurgence of new players and revenue. This way we can continue to play in this world for many years to come.
    I understand this point too, but there are certain plot points we expect to see, even if only as session play, and preferably at the correct point in the story. Shelob's Lair, for example. This one was even teased, but never shown. Another is the confrontation with Gollum and the destruction of the Ring. It SHOULD have happened BEFORE we get the cutscene about the fall of Sauron, so that we're THERE for that climactic moment, even if we're playing Frodo or Sam. Letting us see what happened after the climax is by definition anticlimactic. After 11 or 12 years playing this, I expected a better ending.

    As an aside, I also expected to be able to go elsewhere in Middle Earth and have things be different (perhaps an unreasonable expectation), reflecting the fall of Sauron. But, all in all, it wasn't bad. I just didn't think it was all that good.

    As for the Battle of Morannon, it was supposedly suicidal, but it really didn't FEEL that way. I didn't feel outnumbered or overwhelmed in the slightest. I could saunter around pretty well unmolested, anywhere on the field, and when I was attacked it was by one, perhaps two orcs. Hardly overwhelming. It had great atmosphere, but it needed something more for us to do, orcs to fight through. Actual groups of allies and enemies who would actually damage one another (those defeated would respawn, of course, and fight again), so we could join in and help them, or have them help US when we're getting overwhelmed. It just felt rather empty.
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  4. #29
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    Rather a rude shock today, as I ventured into Mordor. Came upon a L113 normal orc warrior. As I'm L112 now, I thought there would be no problem, even though I've not yet had a chance to get any gear with light of Earendil on it. I mean, I took on THREE Elite Masters at once with Skjald, set up for healing (He's a Captain), and WON. So I attacked him, and was dead in about 3 seconds. His every attack was hitting me for 7000, 8000 damage, sometimes in flurries of 3 or 4 such hits. There was simply NO WAY to fight against it, and this was a NORMAL foe. God forbid I encounter any signatures or higher. I didn't even have a chance, I did less than 10% of his health.

    If this is the norm for Mordor, there's no way I'm going to ever finish a mission since I can't even fight normal foes my own level. If I can't finish a mission, I'm not going to ever get the gear NEEDED (apparently) to finish a mission... do you see the vicious little circle?

    Kind of a shame, I suppose I'll go back to just playing music in Bree.
    Skjald of Rohan, Minstrel, Captain of Rohan

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    I didn't feel outnumbered or overwhelmed in the slightest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    Came upon a L113 normal orc warrior. As I'm L112 now, I thought there would be no problem, even though I've not yet had a chance to get any gear with light of Earendil on it... I didn't even have a chance, I did less than 10% of his health... Kind of a shame, I suppose I'll go back to just playing music in Bree.
    This is a good demonstration of why the Battle at the Black Gate was designed the way it was: when we do provide content that feels overwhelming, your reaction is not to play it. It's a balancing act, which is why the Epic Story generally leans toward accessibility and atmosphere. Mordor is hard on purpose.

    MoL

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    This is a good demonstration of why the Battle at the Black Gate was designed the way it was: when we do provide content that feels overwhelming, your reaction is not to play it. It's a balancing act, which is why the Epic Story generally leans toward accessibility and atmosphere. Mordor is hard on purpose.

    MoL
    I'm glad you still do hard content despite the fact that a lot of people react negatively to it. Mordor is the only reason I still have LOTRO in the back of my head. I feel the day is drawing closer when I return to the game to finally experience it. Thanks for keeping up the good work.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    Rather a rude shock today, as I ventured into Mordor. Came upon a L113 normal orc warrior. As I'm L112 now, I thought there would be no problem, even though I've not yet had a chance to get any gear with light of Earendil on it.
    If you're fighting 113 enemies, you're in a zone with 80+ shadow. You have no light gear to negate it, so you're taking double damage and dealing half damage from the shadow debuff. That's why you got slaughtered. If you had appropriate light gear, it would be pretty easy. Start in the lower shadow zones, accumulate your light gear as you go, and you'll be fine, though Mordor is still tougher than previous zones.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    Rather a rude shock today, as I ventured into Mordor. Came upon a L113 normal orc warrior. As I'm L112 now, I thought there would be no problem, even though I've not yet had a chance to get any gear with light of Earendil on it. I mean, I took on THREE Elite Masters at once with Skjald, set up for healing (He's a Captain), and WON. So I attacked him, and was dead in about 3 seconds. His every attack was hitting me for 7000, 8000 damage, sometimes in flurries of 3 or 4 such hits. There was simply NO WAY to fight against it, and this was a NORMAL foe. God forbid I encounter any signatures or higher. I didn't even have a chance, I did less than 10% of his health.

    If this is the norm for Mordor, there's no way I'm going to ever finish a mission since I can't even fight normal foes my own level. If I can't finish a mission, I'm not going to ever get the gear NEEDED (apparently) to finish a mission... do you see the vicious little circle?

    Kind of a shame, I suppose I'll go back to just playing music in Bree.


    Before some other "helpful" individual responds to you by typing, "JUST LEARN HOW TO PLAY!!!", let me say that I and a lot of other players sympathize with what you're saying. And yes, we DO see the "vicious little circle".

    Other than grouping up with others, all I can suggest is that you level up as high as you can before entering Mordor...stock up on finesse....and grab L of E any way you can. Good luck

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    Mordor is hard on purpose.

    MoL

    Making Mordor "hard" (or challenging) is one thing.

    Making it incredibly tedious and burdensome is another.


    Although many players enjoy the first...I know of very few who thrive on the second. Which is perhaps why so many LOTRO players atm are completely giving up on taking any alts through Mordor.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narthalion View Post
    Making Mordor "hard" (or challenging) is one thing.

    Making it incredibly tedious and burdensome is another.


    Although many players enjoy the first...I know of very few who thrive on the second. Which is perhaps why so many LOTRO players atm are completely giving up on taking any alts through Mordor.
    My plan is to skip it completely, not even taking my main there.

    If it ends up being the end of the road for me, I'm good with that.
    “All that is gold does not glitter,
    Not all those who wander are lost;
    The old that is strong does not wither,
    Deep roots are not reached by the frost."

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    This is a good demonstration of why the Battle at the Black Gate was designed the way it was: when we do provide content that feels overwhelming, your reaction is not to play it. It's a balancing act, which is why the Epic Story generally leans toward accessibility and atmosphere. Mordor is hard on purpose.

    MoL
    I can agree (obviously), but I still think the Battle at the Black Gate was underwhelming. It needed to feel like it was difficult without necessarily BEING more difficult. The way I would have done that, I described before. Have MORE foes, not stronger foes. Have foes and allies fighting each other that are actually fighting each other, so WE can pitch in.

    The problem with my experience in Mordor is that this was ONE normal foe, approximately my own level. It wasn't that it was challenging, it's that there was NO CHANCE. There was simply no way at all that I could compete, no matter what I did. That's not challenging.

    Still, as mentioned, having the required gear would help - but there's the rub. The new gear is REQUIRED, or you're not going to be able to do the content. The main issue with that is that you have to do the content to get the gear you need to do the content. The secondary issue is that to get the gear, you have to grind the same few repeatable missions ad nauseam, and buy it with tokens. I miss the days when loot dropped on foes you defeated, and you could actually improve yourself by equipping yourself in the field.

    It may be this is the end of the road for Skjald, too. I may just go back to music, as I mentioned. I enjoy that, it's not a big issue, it's just disappointing.
    Skjald of Rohan, Minstrel, Captain of Rohan

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    Have foes and allies fighting each other that are actually fighting each other, so WE can pitch in.
    It sounds great on paper, but such dynamic fights have an adverse effect on performance; the Battle of the Morannon is already pushing the limits of acceptability and adding the fights you describe would make it much worse. This is what I'm always talking about when I say that game design is about compromise, and when I say it's not easy. It's my dream job, and always has been! But it requires an understanding of limitations that I didn't have on the outside. "Who thought the second disk of Xenogears was a good idea?" I'd ask, or "How could they not allow us to explore Shell 2 as Snake?" Both of those would have been "so easy to do right!"

    But of course there were reasons. Everything has reasons. The reasons for having single enemies fighting you at the Morannon is because it's a public space that needs to accommodate a number of players at the same time and it needs to have a base level of performance. It also needs to have a level of difficulty that's accomplishable by anyone who's followed the story this far.

    MoL

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    This is a good demonstration of why the Battle at the Black Gate was designed the way it was: when we do provide content that feels overwhelming, your reaction is not to play it. It's a balancing act, which is why the Epic Story generally leans toward accessibility and atmosphere. Mordor is hard on purpose.

    MoL
    Im also glad you have hard landscape content again! it's been over 6 years since we've had anything close to this. i think limlight gorge?

    anywhoo. to the Original complainer - you're 112. go turn in your tokens of service for some gear. you might want to make sure you've done the lost lore quests of udun and dor amarth before you venture into lhingris.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    The main issue with that is that you have to do the content to get the gear you need to do the content. The secondary issue is that to get the gear, you have to grind the same few repeatable missions ad nauseam, and buy it with tokens.
    Just do the landscape quests. By the time you reach those later zones, you'll have enough LoE gear to handle them. You'll even have enough ashes from outgrown quest gear to buy a few bonus pieces at 112 if you feel you're lacking. No need to do quests you can't handle or repeatables.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    It sounds great on paper, but such dynamic fights have an adverse effect on performance; the Battle of the Morannon is already pushing the limits of acceptability and adding the fights you describe would make it much worse. This is what I'm always talking about when I say that game design is about compromise, and when I say it's not easy. It's my dream job, and always has been! But it requires an understanding of limitations that I didn't have on the outside. "Who thought the second disk of Xenogears was a good idea?" I'd ask, or "How could they not allow us to explore Shell 2 as Snake?" Both of those would have been "so easy to do right!"

    But of course there were reasons. Everything has reasons. The reasons for having single enemies fighting you at the Morannon is because it's a public space that needs to accommodate a number of players at the same time and it needs to have a base level of performance. It also needs to have a level of difficulty that's accomplishable by anyone who's followed the story this far.

    MoL
    I'm not saying EVERYTHING needed to be that way, but put in a few such groups here and there. I do this all the time in the Star Trek Online Foundry, which lets us create our own missions. I'd have the usual static "background" action going on, then add a few groups of foes and allies who wander around, engaging each other when they meet, or engaging the player if they bump into him. Having them wander and respawn when cleared out would make the battle feel less static, and having a group of foes, maybe 4 or 5 orcs, coming at you might make you retreat to a group of wandering allies... unless you can handle the orcs alone... Personally, I think it would have been worthwhile, even if it did mean scaling back on a bit of the scenery.

    But then, I'm not a programmer, so I wouldn't presume to say it would be easy, or even possible. I just think it would have added something extra that would be worth having.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilan View Post
    Just do the landscape quests. By the time you reach those later zones, you'll have enough LoE gear to handle them. You'll even have enough ashes from outgrown quest gear to buy a few bonus pieces at 112 if you feel you're lacking. No need to do quests you can't handle or repeatables.
    I was ON the landscape, looking for some sort of crafter guy to give me some flame thing to make ash from corrupted weapons. Came upon one of the forges (the first one after the first camp), and met that one orc. I'm not even on a quest that GIVES me gear yet.
    Skjald of Rohan, Minstrel, Captain of Rohan

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  17. #42
    Back to the tread title, I just wanted to say I AGREE. I just reached the Pelennor Fields battle last week and thought it was amazing. Great job of, as you said, making it accessible and atmospheric. And memorable.

    Although I admit I didn't remember everyone I met along its path .

  18. #43
    I'm not one to say "git gud," but it's like some of you guys didn't even try to go through Mordor in the right order. Is it difficult? Yes. Does it require taking your time? Yes. Is it do-able? Absolutely. DON'T SKIP THE FIRST QUEST AREAS. Get your LoE gear and move on to the next area when your quests are done. And why is grouping up so bad? There are people leveling everywhere in Mordor. If I've found something was a bit too hard, I would just ask for some help and almost always get it. It's an MMO. That's what is supposed to happen. Instead of complaining on the forums because you don't want to put in the effort to be successful, try taking that forum-posting-fervor and put it into the game instead.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Daugon View Post
    And why is grouping up so bad?
    Its not bad to group up for questing through landscape now.
    In two or three years, it will be bad if people need to group up for mordor as then, there wont be that many people to group with anymore.
    Intelligent landscape design therefore doesnt require grouping for the main questchain.
    And mordor doesnt (at least not with guardian, minstrel, hunter, loremaster, captain, which are the classes I got through mordor till now).
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    I was ON the landscape, looking for some sort of crafter guy to give me some flame thing to make ash from corrupted weapons. Came upon one of the forges (the first one after the first camp), and met that one orc. I'm not even on a quest that GIVES me gear yet.
    The Flame of Ancalimar is from the one and only good guy encampment in Udun, just after you enter the Black Gates. It's on the right side with a stable horse near the entrance. The guy with the Flame is further back. I think there is a sort of tutorial quest on how to use the Flame, but the Flame itself you just buy from him for a few coppers or something like that.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamo View Post
    I was ON the landscape, looking for some sort of crafter guy to give me some flame thing to make ash from corrupted weapons. Came upon one of the forges (the first one after the first camp), and met that one orc. I'm not even on a quest that GIVES me gear yet.
    Now I'm confused. There's no level 113 orcs in Udun so I don't know how you would meet one there. Though I think there's some level 115 ones for endgame questing that are semi-nearby that you might have wandered into, which would be a problem if you're not ready.

 

 
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