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  1. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    And that is what I fear might happen. I like cross traiting. I like to make my heals stronger even if it costs some dps on my rk or mini. WoWs streamlining has made specs but has taken away from the classes. I hope this never happens in Lotro.


    This, a million times. I left wow because every prot warrior was the same. When I wanted to know where my character was progressing, I just inspected a better-geared one to see where my upgrades would be, becaude our specs were the same damn thing.

    I tried to rejoin Rift before I came back to Lotro, since I have always loved their soul/trait system and think it shares many good features with Lotro. I left because they took my two favorite tank trees and made them dps trees, when I was specifically hoping to use my old tank of one of those trees.


    I strongly hope Lotro stays a cut above all the ones like WoW, even if it makes balance more difficult. Dumbing it down to the WoW level would cause a hard 180 for me, and I would much rather stick around, as I enjoy the vast majority of Turbine/SSG's work.
    SSG: I love this game and intend to keep giving you money. Please add a way to enter or climb the Stone Tower housing decoration from Rangers of Esteldin, that I may then reach the top.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renjy View Post
    I used WoW (and other MMORPGs) once as an example to tell you how class design works. Do you realize that LOTRO already works like WoW when it comes to classes? Their class design approaches are similar, that's what I said and that's something you are either unaware of or have totally missed when bragging about other players talking about other MMORPGs. It has zero to do with WoW, it's about class design in MMORPG as I already said once or twice......
    LOTRO had quite a different system before trait trees were introduced. It was in fact them trying to be more like WoW that caused this whole problem in the first place. If there was any virtue in it, it was supposed to have been easier to maintain, easier to make changes to when necessary. Except it isn't that either. So no thanks to trying to be more like WoW.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optharo View Post
    ....Oh well, ignore list it is.
    Yea! Finally, no more "you haven't answered the question" trolling from you then.

  4. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Sphenforthewin View Post
    This, a million times. I left wow because every prot warrior was the same. When I wanted to know where my character was progressing, I just inspected a better-geared one to see where my upgrades would be, becaude our specs were the same damn thing.
    In any case, there will be classes and builds that are considered to be best and most optimal. In good situations, these optimal builds would vary depending on content (2, 6, 12 mans, maybe some deviations based on instance), and the difference to "suboptimal" hybrids providing some extra tools for not-that-perfect runs/groups would be small.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphenforthewin View Post
    I tried to rejoin Rift before I came back to Lotro, since I have always loved their soul/trait system and think it shares many good features with Lotro. I left because they took my two favorite tank trees and made them dps trees, when I was specifically hoping to use my old tank of one of those trees.
    So now you can easily understand the frustration of lotro players at HD changes, when many classes lost lots of their previous functionality and features. You probably now can understand, how frustrating it has been to players, who have rolled a class, just to find out that they are obsoleted from running content. I suffered long time with my Hunter, Champion and Warden. Only Minstrel kept her place as group healer, sometimes performing better, sometimes worse. Hunter might have now its moment. Champion had its short moments when armor rending was powerful enough to justify champ for runs. Warden had its glorious moments during Osgiliath era after essence upgrades, when it got tank spots easily to 3/6-mans. To be honest, I just couldn't stand it longer: what's the point of putting so much effort to gearing up toons, when next update obsoletes everything you worked for, and so many times throw your hard worked class to void by obsoleting it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphenforthewin View Post
    I strongly hope Lotro stays a cut above all the ones like WoW, even if it makes balance more difficult. Dumbing it down to the WoW level would cause a hard 180 for me, and I would much rather stick around, as I enjoy the vast majority of Turbine/SSG's work.
    Would I see any indications that SSG changes its policy to give love to content it has created, I would strongly consider coming back. It would not mean complete overhaul of things, at least not in short run. It would mean constant, progressive work to maintain the content, especially the core of the game, fighting (that is, classes, gears, LIs, mobs, mechanics, and such).

    I have written just too much about classes and content that I just don't want to repeat myself anymore. There are many different tools to be used to improve the situation such way, that it will last longer than to next added gear pieces. There are many MMOs out there to look for ideas to solve certain problems.
    Laurelin freeps: Tamien (R8 Warden) - Tanie (R9 Champion) - Tamieth (Hunter) - Tamia (Minstrel) - Challenger of Gothmog
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  5. #180

    NEVER

    Quote Originally Posted by Renjy View Post
    The title says it all.
    Yes, it does.

  6. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by TamX View Post
    So now you can easily understand the frustration of lotro players at HD changes, when many classes lost lots of their previous functionality and features. You probably now can understand, how frustrating it has been to players, who have rolled a class, just to find out that they are obsoleted from running content. I suffered long time with my Hunter, Champion and Warden. Only Minstrel kept her place as group healer, sometimes performing better, sometimes worse. Hunter might have now its moment. Champion had its short moments when armor rending was powerful enough to justify champ for runs. Warden had its glorious moments during Osgiliath era after essence upgrades, when it got tank spots easily to 3/6-mans. To be honest, I just couldn't stand it longer: what's the point of putting so much effort to gearing up toons, when next update obsoletes everything you worked for, and so many times throw your hard worked class to void by obsoleting it?
    Eh... Warden was god mode from years before HD revamp till u18 basically... After which it was slightly nerffed and just good class after that. This mordor ranking for warden is something very much new... Champ if I remember right on top of my head had few major bugs at launch of hd but after fixed they were just fine during late 95, 100 and 105 caps good 2.5-3 years? again mordors rankings relatively new thing for them they been historically good class for long. Hunter had its dry period from u16 till u19, and most players noticed hunters problems just at u18 which is rather amusing...

    If we look classes now how they change on their ranking we are really stable, its very easy to predict what happens to classes in future. We had way faster changing of balance from good to bad and otherwise around years ago so game currently is very stagnant and rolling class to play with means one can expect experience to be like that for long times in good and in bad.

  7. #182
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    So this is everything we get for the moment:

    "There's some plans to perhaps get some more definitive short and long term plans for class balance out there, but nothing to announce at the moment."

    Source: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ummarised-1-18

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renjy View Post
    So this is everything we get for the moment:

    "There's some plans to perhaps get some more definitive short and long term plans for class balance out there, but nothing to announce at the moment."

    Source: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ummarised-1-18
    I see you have plans, so we're making plans to make plans to plan for your plans.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korandon View Post
    I see you have plans, so we're making plans to make plans to plan for your plans.
    Perhaps.
    "Not all those who wander are lost." -Tolkien
    "No matter where you go, there you are." -Confucius

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ride_the_Train View Post
    Perhaps.
    I really hope we're getting details sooner than later.

    Do we already have some patch notes for the PTS or do we know what can be expected except the new region(s)?

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renjy View Post
    I really hope we're getting details sooner than later.

    Do we already have some patch notes for the PTS or do we know what can be expected except the new region(s)?
    No and no.

  12. #187
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    Jul 2016
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    22
    We are currently through much of our DPS testing; mitigation and healing throughput and utility will be trickier but we are working on them.

    We are currently eyeing Hunter Blue and Runekeeper Red lines as our base line trees that define what a DPS should be doing. Runekeeper is probably a bit high, but we'd rather adjust up then do a lot of nerfs.

    Rather than doing class passes and doing massive changes to each class and each tree in turn we plan to do distributed changes to classes that need it, coupled with bug fixes. That means each class will see ~3-6 meaningful changes that are put out more quickly, and when we do that we can re-evaluate and begin the process again. Each stage will fine tune class balance. Our goal is to bring changes to many classes in stages rather than hitting each class in turn and leaving some classes waiting on changes and fixes for a long time.

    The weakness of this approach is that players who are passionate about their favorite class (which is essentially all of the players) will have the initial reaction after the first pass that much more work needs to be done on their particular class. It is a side effect of this distributed tuning strategy where fixes and improvements come in waves.

    The other weakness of this approach is that the classes in most need of overhauls *cough*Beorning*cough* will probably need more work because they are in need of more than bug fixes and tuning, so they might break this strategy a bit.

    Nonetheless, our current thought is that this approach is preferable to a cycle of doing each class in turn where some classes don't see changes for months or years.

    We do still have some systems work for U22. That said, we hope to have the first wave of balance changes out to Palantir in early to mid March. Obviously that will create rounds of feedback and Bullroarer will follow when adjustments have been made based on initial feedback and internal testing.

    Sev~

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We are currently eyeing Hunter Blue and Runekeeper Red lines as our base line trees that define what a DPS should be doing. Runekeeper is probably a bit high, but we'd rather adjust up then do a lot of nerfs
    You know blue hunters do more dps than RK right?

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethirielll View Post
    You know blue hunters do more dps than RK right?
    It's not even close xD
    Former resident of Withywindle now settling in on Laurelin :D

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  15. #190
    please fix barrage, before you take blue hunters as a guideline how much damage hunters or anyone should do.
    a 1s-CD-skill shouldnt deal the most damage per hit of all skills a class has.
    (or just put barrage on 3s cd, then no fix would be needed)
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  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We are currently eyeing Hunter Blue and Runekeeper Red lines as our base line trees that define what a DPS should be doing. Runekeeper is probably a bit high, but we'd rather adjust up then do a lot of nerfs.
    This comment worries me, in-game reality is a blue hunter with max barrage tiering does more dps than a top-geared RK with perfect rotation and best possible procs. Does not add up with what you post here. Not sure who did the DPS testing/what their method was but they obviously weren't fully utilizing the barrage skill... Unless this means you intend to 'fix' barrage by restricting its tiering properly, in which case I'm all for it and RK might indeed end up slightly higher.
    Earbold (Laurelin [EN-RP])
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  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethirielll View Post
    You know blue hunters do more dps than RK right?
    Rks are a bit ahead with the new raid relics from what I've seen.
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  18. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post

    Rather than doing class passes and doing massive changes to each class and each tree in turn we plan to do distributed changes to classes that need it, coupled with bug fixes. That means each class will see ~3-6 meaningful changes that are put out more quickly, and when we do that we can re-evaluate and begin the process again. Each stage will fine tune class balance. Our goal is to bring changes to many classes in stages rather than hitting each class in turn and leaving some classes waiting on changes and fixes for a long time.

    Sev~
    Do not forget the main problem of having such a big gap between Melee and Ranged/Tactical DPS classes is the Fire Debuffs, which kinda doubles the DPS for Ranged/Tactical classes. To balance it out, you have to figure out someway to either add Fire Damage for Melee classes or reduce the potency of Fire Debuffs LM and RKs provide.

    After you have dealt with that problem, you have to fix the Partial BPEs which Melee DPS classes have to deal with, because Ranged/Tacticals can bypass that.


  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We do still have some systems work for U22.
    This is the definition of vague. Care to expand?

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by dselden View Post
    Rks are a bit ahead with the new raid relics from what I've seen.
    I'd like to meet those hunters you used for comparison
    Former resident of Withywindle now settling in on Laurelin :D

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  21. #196
    I am sorry to disagree with People who got a lot of experinece in the new raid(laurelin original Challenger grp) but:Rks do more dmg,they do every time same dps and they are almost NEVER behind on blue hunters.

    We had Abyss boss 1 fights with hunters being on 100-105k dps where the best rk had 110k dps and the other 100-105k.
    Same for boss 2,mostly rks do even more dps there.

    Only on boss 3 you have a major disadvantage due to the kicks.

    Those dps numbers are from rks and hunters who both Play the class on 100% with everything what is possible(hunters even with big battle set what is quite a strong dps boost).
    Drizzels
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  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    I am sorry to disagree with People who got a lot of experinece in the new raid(laurelin original Challenger grp) but:Rks do more dmg,they do every time same dps and they are almost NEVER behind on blue hunters.

    We had Abyss boss 1 fights with hunters being on 100-105k dps where the best rk had 110k dps and the other 100-105k.
    Same for boss 2,mostly rks do even more dps there.

    Only on boss 3 you have a major disadvantage due to the kicks.

    Those dps numbers are from rks and hunters who both Play the class on 100% with everything what is possible(hunters even with big battle set what is quite a strong dps boost).
    Counting mighty AoE bleeds on blood spirits? Cuz on the same boss, only counting ST parses, we've seen the opposite
    Earbold (Laurelin [EN-RP])
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    Original Challenger of Gothmog and the Abyss

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    I am sorry to disagree with People who got a lot of experinece in the new raid(laurelin original Challenger grp) but:Rks do more dmg,they do every time same dps and they are almost NEVER behind on blue hunters.

    We had Abyss boss 1 fights with hunters being on 100-105k dps where the best rk had 110k dps and the other 100-105k.
    Same for boss 2,mostly rks do even more dps there.

    Only on boss 3 you have a major disadvantage due to the kicks.

    Those dps numbers are from rks and hunters who both Play the class on 100% with everything what is possible(hunters even with big battle set what is quite a strong dps boost).
    Are those numbers ST? On first boss a good slice of rk dps is AoE and wasted on useless gloom (sometimes you can have up to 3 4 gloom on main boss).

    On 3rd boss is incomparable cause on first phase rk can beat hunter due to the frontal position of the fight, on second phase rk could get several kicks and lose dps.

    Btw im really scared by this supposed "class balancement". Hope it wont get worse than now. And i'm not talking about red rk dps or so.
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  24. #199
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    I think the details and specifics on how classes rate for DPS and what people are using in raids are great, and these are the kinds of things we will be looking for when we elicit feedback from Palantir, from Bullroarer, and from live for additional tuning.

    Sev~

  25. #200
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    The distributed passes is a fair approach, and glad improving class balance is on the radar.

    RE Hunters vs RKs: I think it's important to keep in mind both are at least in the same ballpark currently, not a double the DPS situation, which is an improvement over Throne launch. Both are very viable in Abyss. That said, I don't like how Hunters achieve their DPS with the broken Barage T3 spam.

 

 
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