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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    LOL that's not how progression should work.

    It's a 3-boss-raid that has been on public test server for 6 weeks, what do you expect? Of course it will be cleared within a few days.

    You should ask for more bosses and less BR testing weekends for the next raid, rather than making ridiculous suggestions such as it's okay to waste 4-6 weeks of peoples' time until devs fix a broken boss.
    If you don't want to waste your time then do t1/t2 and leave t2c to the people who enjoy the challenge.

    And yeah we got a long br Phase,but mostly for testing boss 1 here and we don't even know if boss 2,3,(4?) are finished yet.
    That's why I say it's way to early to call for a Nerv that didn't even got tried and tested properly.

    And if you look at all raids in the past(no matter if they had short/normal/long palantir and/or br rounds:some fights always took quite a while to get down.
    I agree that the first boss shouldn't be that boss but if it is only about the c from t2c it doesn't matter if it is boss 2,3 or whatever.
    As long as we get at least one super hard fight, even if it is a bit overturned at the start(look at liutannant,orthanc Saruman+f&f,erebor flight,throne unbroken).

    If we get something like od again where we got all t2c clear after 1-2 weeks it would be disappointing.
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  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    LOL that's not how progression should work.

    It's a 3-boss-raid that has been on public test server for 6 weeks, what do you expect? Of course it will be cleared within a few days.

    You should ask for more bosses and less BR testing weekends for the next raid, rather than making ridiculous suggestions such as it's okay to waste 4-6 weeks of peoples' time until devs fix a broken boss.
    Exactly. It's very doubtful there would be more than kins counted on few fingers that would make first boss on T2CM on first night if they had no prior experience with it. Of course people gonna do raid "fast on live" when they have over a month of time to get familiar with the content and experience full mechanics on way lower difficulty level then progress more balanced versions. Even now it's very doubtful there will be more than handful of kins that have farmed this on several nights per week on Bullroarer and maybe one or two other kins on the release evening. Facepalm.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    You should ask for more bosses and less BR testing weekends for the next raid, rather than making ridiculous suggestions such as it's okay to waste 4-6 weeks of peoples' time until devs fix a broken boss.
    3 boss raid is pretty lame considering we haven't had a new raid in over a year.
    But it's not surprising considering the 6-man that was released to live weeks ago is still "in development" on BR.

    It would be ideal if SSG had the staff/resources to release a full raid with little to no bugs or mechanic/exploit issues straight to live with no BR testing. Everyone (at least on the first day or so) would be new to the instance, wiping like crazy trying to learn the tactics (which is the fun part). There would be no reporting bugs or mechanics not working as intended just folks having fun learning the instance in it's finalized state. Instead, SSG continues to use it's customers as testers and promoters all at the same time. They should be paying us.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Denhith View Post
    3 boss raid is pretty lame considering we haven't had a new raid in over a year.
    But it's not surprising considering the 6-man that was released to live weeks ago is still "in development" on BR.

    It would be ideal if SSG had the staff/resources to release a full raid with little to no bugs or mechanic/exploit issues straight to live with no BR testing. Everyone (at least on the first day or so) would be new to the instance, wiping like crazy trying to learn the tactics (which is the fun part). There would be no reporting bugs or mechanics not working as intended just folks having fun learning the instance in it's finalized state. Instead, SSG continues to use it's customers as testers and promoters all at the same time. They should be paying us.
    Big talk considering you haven't even tried the raid, seen full mechanics or seen the fight on t2.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Big talk considering you haven't even tried the raid, seen full mechanics or seen the fight on t2.
    I refused to run new raid on beta cause i think that wiping and learnig mechanics on live is the best part of raid experience. But i dont think you need to be experienced to realize that consumer shouldnt be alpha tester, beta tester and player at the same time.
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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Rialtan View Post
    I refused to run new raid on beta cause i think that wiping and learnig mechanics on live is the best part of raid experience. But i dont think you need to be experienced to realize that consumer shouldnt be alpha tester, beta tester and player at the same time.
    I commented on part of last fight being "lame". But if you didn't know, players have tested most of their raids on their closed servers (that have had few names over the years).

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Big talk considering you haven't even tried the raid, seen full mechanics or seen the fight on t2.
    Gods forbid someone wanted a full, finished raid upon release. Remind me, is the 6-man still being reworked weeks after going live? Check. Does the raid only have 3 bosses? Check. My comments are based on historical trends set by SSG/Turbine...because at one point a I did go onto BR, test content, report bugs/exploits and sure enough the content was released bugged/broken anyway. From what I've seen since then, nothing has really changed.

    Side note: Why do you have to be so combative? Are you bipolar or something??

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    I commented on part of last fight being "lame".
    At no point did I say the last fight was lame. Next time, actually read the post you are quoting. Thanks.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    And if you look at all raids in the past(no matter if they had short/normal/long palantir and/or br rounds:some fights always took quite a while to get down.
    And why again did it take so long? Bcause many of these bosses were mathematically impossible before fix (e.g. Saruman, F&F). All other bosses were always beaten quite fast and even those bosses that are considered "very hard" like F&F or Unbroken One got beaten on day 1 after fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    If we get something like od again where we got all t2c clear after 1-2 weeks it would be disappointing.
    I recommend you read what the raid leader of Exorsus (World 1st / 2nd WOW raiding guild) wrote regarding the latest WOW raid (prior to Antorus).
    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._race_from_gm/

    Kil'jaeden. Boss received 3 waves of nerfs before actually being killable. Apart from nerfs, boss had some very serious bugs, leading to very slow progression. I’ve seen a lot of comments like “get good” or “you forgot what is challenge”.

    [...]

    Seeing top guilds being melted by damage on some bosses within 1-2 minutes of a pull should be good sign of “ok, something went wrong”. There’s nothing more demoralizing than getting a world first on some boss, taking advantage and totally losing it because there’s just “under construction” sign on a boss. Now imagine 4 days of progression is wasted on a boss, which is clearly in unpolished state without seeing any major changes. And after that imagine you’re finally finished with this boss after fixes (what a relief!), coming to the next FINAL boss and… It’s in the same state (if not worse). And you’re waiting again for days.

    [...]

    Some hardcore raiding mythbusting: “Back in the days progression took 2 months and now they’re whining after x days of progression on a boss/raid overall”. You all should realize you can’t compare current situation with those old days, every top guild is running 6-7 splitruns and trying to gear up everyone to best possible gear asap, creating special addons for the bosses and wasting some enormous amount of time per day, which all were not a thing before.

    Now, while the competetive raiding scene in WOW is certainly very different from LOTRO, these highlighted comments are also spot-on regarding raids in basically every MMO.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialtan View Post
    I refused to run new raid on beta cause i think that wiping and learnig mechanics on live is the best part of raid experience. But i dont think you need to be experienced to realize that consumer shouldnt be alpha tester, beta tester and player at the same time.
    Ah yes, never forgot 1 year of wiping to get that "Legit challenger of gothmog" title.

  11. #36
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    SSG clearly doesn't have the budget to reliably test a raid in house (and release raid tiers as regularly as might be hoped). WoW tests raids publicly, with some internal testing for specific Mythic things (and they STILL wind up struggling to find a balance between imbalanced and too beatable). FFXIV tests things internally, and is developed by Square Enix... Both have budgets that LOTRO is never going to come to close to. Side-note, is there really that much difference between certain Kins/players getting a large advantage from Palantir testing (and then ramping it up, and having that knowledge before going hard at Bullroarer) and letting everyone see the bosses early on Bullroarer? Seems like a more even scenario with better quality testing than the alternative.

    LOTRO went 4 years without a Raid, and now we have gotten a pretty excellent raid with a lasting loot system followed by a 3 boss raid (~18 months later) that has clearly had significant effort and time put into it. We should ask for more, push them for better raids, push back on their loot systems, but at some point if people keep spitting in their faces every time they try to deliver content to us you're just going to demotivate them to even bother with us.

    ---


    Making T2C a secondary progression race isn't necessarily a bad idea for making content last longer. We have T1, T2, and T2C. There shouldn't be barely any difference between T2 and T2C (like on Boss 2). Give Kins something to work on and look forward to, considering the frequency of raids and amount of bosses we're able to get. In an ideal scenario they'd release T1, T2 and then wait a couple weeks and release T2C, IMO, to make the content last longer and give us a couple progression races (and would limit the impact of Bullroarer testing, as T2C just needs to unlock some extra mechanics/difficulty). At the moment, it's around holiday time so some of us are suggesting a month so I'd be cool with a month. Think of it like Mythic in WoW vs Heroic (though Heroic is a bit too easy nowadays), and Savage vs Normal for FFXIV. They release those separately, too.

    Alternatively, again, in this particular case the raid is releasing right around holiday season. What's the harm in making T2C a bit overtuned -- maybe some Kins down it after gearing themselves up in raid gear. Then you nerf 1 or 2 of the challenges a bit if you see that people aren't able to down it with all the new gear progression they had available, which allows some other Kins who hadn't spent a significant amount of time on Bullroarer some opportunity to catch up and have a better progression race for those T2Cs, whilst having the potential of the content being downed due to some Kin truly perfecting the fight and their strat, as well as their gear. IMO, the most important thing is T2 be doable (with reasonable difficulty) at release, the loot system is accessible, and if T2C is a tad overtuned that's better than people getting to kill all 3 bosses first week and there being no point bothering with T2.

    Ultimately Pinion will have final say, and I truly respect the effort he's put in Throne and Abyss. Hope he's a little careful of putting much faith in the opinions of people whom may just wanna go hardcore on Bullroarer and want their strats to work on Live so that they can get their bragging rights as soon as possible (and likely follow it by stopping investing in the game).
    Last edited by canyouaddcolour; Dec 05 2017 at 09:01 AM.

  12. #37
    Dear developers & raid community!

    This is my feedback on the new raid T2C as far as we already gathered experience.


    Way to first Boss:
    Trash groups are too much and pretty boring. Nearly all mechanics can be avoided by kiting. My suggestion: give us less space to fight, add stronger debuffs we have to struggle with, but allow us to control the big mobs with CC - at least combined with the well-known “adaption” buff.

    First Boss:
    The nerf (Beta #5) on the boss itself was too strong. We killed them within 7 minutes - still 3 minutes left.
    Please let the red ghosts (forgot the english names) at least heal the hardmode-relevant adds (rhino,spider, tree) [as well as the two walking wizards.]
    After completing the hardmode condition, add some extra effects to the full heal. 36kk only takes the group around 90 seconds.

    Way to second Boss:
    Quantity of trash groups is decent but please make them much stronger. Trolls, which have 4kk morale are no challenge to anyone.
    Please add some fears, roots, stuns, or ground effect. We all want sick mechanics that require a lot of CC, map awareness and fast reactions.

    Second Boss:
    We only tested this one for two hours so far, but are not sure about how to handle both the renewing 40 corruptions on the boss and the respawning 4 adds. There is no time for dealing damage in between.
    It has been brought to my attention that you are going to lower the amount of adds - which will result in a major nerf (less incoming damage per second, DPS, cc required). Try to find an other way.

    Generally said, the bosses’ mechanics seem to be solid but still need some minor adjustments. Please watch out and don’t make the raid too easy.

    We want challenging raid progression, and not just simple DPS kills.

    Petrocelli

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    I commented on part of last fight being "lame". But if you didn't know, players have tested most of their raids on their closed servers (that have had few names over the years).
    Ofc, but tbh in the last expansion i felt more like an alpha tester, without any real internal testing before release.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    For this build:

    The trash didn't changed,still to many to easy trash waves and only a few well balanced ones.
    Read what I said above,reduce numbers of easy waves and increase difficulties from remaining ones to be on level with th middle part of was till boss 1.

    First boss:

    -to easy in this build and if this goes live like this it will be down on first day by many kins.

    - get the blood spirits back to the Build before with dealing quite some dmg when you got 8 on 1 Tank.
    - buff the teleport mechanic to be really dangerous, it's to easy to counter at the moment.
    - I would keep the fullheal on the ent, not sure if other coming solutions are really better. Don't make the dps race impossible, but don't make it to easy.
    I got th feeling that there was a secret nerv for outgoing dmg from highpristess or the supplicant buff is not that strong as shown in the tooltip.
    The whole fight feels way easier this week and I hope this will change again.

    +lagg is better
    + with returning to former difficult this fight will be really cool for boss 1.


    Boss 2:

    Keep it as it is now:

    If it is really to hard atm(what I doubt) you can Nerv it on t2c after 4-6 weeks live.
    Please give us the chance to at least try on the highest difficulty on live.
    If it is really to hard atm(what I doubt) you can Nerv it on t2c after 4-6 weeks live.

    If you would spend some time on bullroarer and test the boss 2, you would see the boss is overtuned. I suggest you should test stuff before you comment to it.

    Also this is terrible suggestion, waiting 6 weeks for a nerf lmao.
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  15. #40
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    Thanks for all the feedback so far! It's been very helpful!

  16. #41
    One bug that we found on boss 1 - several times when people die they are immediately defeated and ported back to the start of the instance (which obviously is not intended). Not sure why this happens - it's not being rezzed at the entrance; it's an auto-defeat as soon as the character dies.

    As for difficulty, I would say that boss 2 is pretty over-tuned at this point, and that four adds every minute is probably too much. I really like the mechanics of the boss and the adds and all that they do - this has the potential to be a really pretty epic fight.

    Boss 1 (T2C) I think is about right - I wouldn't make any changes really. I really like that there is a major difference between T2 and T2C, and think this is going to be a really nice encounter. BTW removing the physics made a huge difference when we tried it last night - very good move there.
    .
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  17. #42
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    Please fix the spider on the first boss getting stuck behind the bars. It can easily be exploited.

    Great fight as of beta #6.

  18. #43
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    BOSS 1:

    • Fix the spider being stuck behind a wall, it takes some time to move him and get him bugged out of there.
    • I would remove the random-aggro from blood spirits and let them be tanked again, either way it works.
    • There is still a bug where person in loading screen dies because he gets ported and you can't heal him.


    BOSS 2:

    • Nerfing the amount of adds and decreasing the time of spawning does not really change anything tbh. Right now you have 40 seconds to kill adds + shadow remnants while you are removing corruptions off boss and dps boss. Every 40 seconds, i don't think this way is possible atm tbh. Either increase the time or add mechanic behind the corruptions to avoid adds spawning (or make it like at first boss).
    • He is still insanely lagging when hes doing animation before he gets corruptions
    • He is still one shoting people with T2C mitigations and proper debuffing with wages of fear - also got to point out we did not give our back to the boss.
    • Adds also fear the tank repeatedly so I would remove that to let the tank kite the adds, otherwise there is really no way to dps so quick and take corruptions at the same time.
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  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    • Nerfing the amount of adds and decreasing the time of spawning does not really change anything tbh. Right now you have 40 seconds to kill adds + shadow remnants while you are removing corruptions off boss and dps boss. Every 40 seconds, i don't think this way is possible atm tbh. Either increase the time or add mechanic behind the corruptions to avoid adds spawning (or make it like at first boss).
    Agreed that it still feels overtuned but I'd be careful with asking for a heavy nerf. It's certainly in a better spot than before. Maybe increase the timer from 40 -> 50 seconds?

    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    • He is still one shoting people with T2C mitigations and proper debuffing with wages of fear - also got to point out we did not give our back to the boss.
    • Adds also fear the tank repeatedly so I would remove that to let the tank kite the adds, otherwise there is really no way to dps so quick and take corruptions at the same time.
    Disagreed. Not sure what you're talking about. Maybe you haven't yet figured out some of the mechanics.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    Agreed that it still feels overtuned but I'd be careful with asking for a heavy nerf. It's certainly in a better spot than before. Maybe increase the timer from 40 -> 50 seconds?


    Disagreed. Not sure what you're talking about. Maybe you haven't yet figured out some of the mechanics.

    I don't think 10 seconds difference will affect the fight anyhow.

    Also i'm not sure which point you are aiming at - so in case it's the second one:

    There is no way to avoid that fear as in it's random and it always happens on the tank only.
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  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    I don't think 10 seconds difference will affect the fight anyhow.
    An increase from 40s to 50s means 25% more time to kill the adds and manage everything (corruptions, new positioning after shadow puddels etc). So yes I believe 25% more time will have a significant effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    Also i'm not sure which point you are aiming at - so in case it's the second one:
    1.) I only ever experienced one-shots by Wages of Fear if someone made a mistake (no debuffs, not facing the boss, etc). I don't want it to be nerfed.
    2.) "Tanks getting feared by the adds" <- never experienced that one. Yes there is a fear mechanic but it has nothing to do with the adds or the tanks.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    An increase from 40s to 50s means 25% more time to kill the adds and manage everything (corruptions, new positioning after shadow puddels etc). So yes I believe 25% more time will have a significant effect.


    1.) I only ever experienced one-shots by Wages of Fear if someone made a mistake (no debuffs, not facing the boss, etc). I don't want it to be nerfed.
    2.) "Tanks getting feared by the adds" <- never experienced that one. Yes there is a fear mechanic but it has nothing to do with the adds or the tanks.

    That is really weird because the only person who is being feared, in our raid is always the tank, who is tanking those adds.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    That is really weird because the only person who is being feared, in our raid is always the tank, who is tanking those adds.
    Can vouch for the fact that DisplTru is correct and it is a mechanic that is seemingly working as intended.

  24. #49
    2nd boss is mechanically easy, so only 1 option would make him hard now: overturned = cannot be done (as it now).
    The difference between T2 and T2C is not that big, so the nerf before it goes live must be pretty big. The only way to make him harder but doable with required nerfs = remake the challenge, but i guess there is not enough time.
    If this boss will not be doable on live we will get 1-boss raid with 1 week CD. That's not how it should be. It will be a fail of the whole instance cluster and a 2nd Naerband.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddharta View Post
    2nd boss is mechanically easy, so only 1 option would make him hard now: overturned = cannot be done (as it now).
    The difference between T2 and T2C is not that big, so the nerf before it goes live must be pretty big. The only way to make him harder but doable with required nerfs = remake the challenge, but i guess there is not enough time.
    If this boss will not be doable on live we will get 1-boss raid with 1 week CD. That's not how it should be. It will be a fail of the whole instance cluster and a 2nd Naerband.

    This is exactly what I want to say.

    Mechanically the fight is really not that hard - wages of fear, morale bubble you need to get rid of, avoid positional, pot wound/mechanical fear.
    But the adds are terribly broken. The way the fight is very very badly designed, the challenge is a pure joke and there is literally 0 difference between T2 and T2C, 40 seconds per wave and corruptions is just too much.
    This fight needs to be reworked or we will have another session of Naerband T2C remake while people are gonna claim it's doable and then they realise how broken it is, yes this has already happened.
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